DrDre

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…

Yeah it’s a real shame that when kids grow up they no longer believe in kindness, charity, and good will to all. They burn their false idols and never teach their own children about mythology to instil a sense of right on them.

Oh wait they don’t, and that was point of the movie.

Yeah, like that was the point I was making. Your response makes no sense. Believing in a myth is not the same as having sense of right. When I say, I wish I could believe in God and the afterlife, that doesn’t mean I have no sense of right and wrong, or no moral code. This should be pretty obvious. As such, it should be equally obvious, what I mean, when I say, I wish I could still believe in the legendary hero Luke Skywalker from ROTJ, rather than the terribly flawed, but human character RJ has turned him into.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.

Yes, but that entire presumption is arrogance IMO. We’re speaking about a group who have maintained peace and justice for a 1,000 generations. If that’s dicking around, I think I have to come out of the closet.

"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”

As stated by one of those dicks.

Always missing the nuance. Just because the Jedi are good doesn’t mean the Jedi are always right. Just because the Jedi aren’t always right doesn’t mean the Jedi are always wrong.

When Luke says that saying the light belongs to the Jedi is vanity, he’s basically right, but he’s definitely up his own ass about it, butting in with his ideology when Rey is just trying to feel the force. It is a little arrogant of him, and it’s supposed to feel that way.

We shouldn’t blindly accept that the Jedi can do no wrong just because they’ve been around for 1,000 generations (especially when the PT shows they almost caused their own extinction). But just because we should have a critical eye with the Jedi doesn’t mean we should dismiss them outright, and the movie doesn’t do that.

“I will not be the last Jedi.” Don’t forget.

The force does not belong to the Jedi. It never has. The light does not belong to the Jedi, is never has and it never should. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe that the Jedi won’t fight for the light as long as they can.

I missed the nuance, because there was none in your OP, my friend. “1,000 generations of dicking around” is not a nuanced statement. Nuanced posts invite nuanced answers. Posts filled with hyperboles don’t.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.

It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.

Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.

I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?

I assume that’s essentially what’s happening here. The Jedi aren’t ending. Rey is still out there with the books, there are inspired force sensitive kiddos in the galaxy, and Yoda talks to Luke about how masters are just “what they grow beyond” not “what they tell to buzz off to do a new thing.”

Growth is important, but too much focus on growth is misguided in my view, because a tree without roots is an unstable thing.

DominicCobb said:

Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.

Yes, but that entire presumption is arrogance IMO. We’re speaking about a group who have maintained peace and justice for a 1,000 generations. If that’s dicking around, I think I have to come out of the closet.

"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”

As stated by one of those dicks.

NFBisms said:

From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.

It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.

Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.

I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?

DominicCobb said:

Well I do think the Jedi in the PT have too rigid a definition of the Force. Whether George did that on purpose, doesn’t matter, as I’m glad to see the ST expand it into so much more than just midichlorian counts.

I think it was a little more than that to George, and to me too. The Force is just The Force. Jediism is a 1,000 generations worth of knowledge about and understanding of The Force.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.

Then let’s not treat RJ’s definition as the second coming. By attempting to strip the original definition of it’s iconic status, RJ’s definition cannot be even that anymore. It’s just another opinion.

I’m not. I’m saying exactly what I’m saying. The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.

Tell it to NeverarGreat 😉:

He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions.

Double post.

DominicCobb said:

The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.

Then let’s not treat RJ’s definition as the second coming. By attempting to strip the original definition of it’s iconic status, RJ’s definition cannot be even that anymore. It’s just another opinion from some guy in a fake beard.

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre Said:

Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.

Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…

Luke has passed on another interpretation of the Force. Who’s to say that won’t be as much a distortion as the Jedi interpretation? Maybe not now, but in a 1,000 generations, or when another director at some point has a different idea of what it represents. This is the real lesson of TLJ, methinks.

eddiebrock said:

NFBisms said:

eddiebrock said:

DarthXenu said:

Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.

Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?

By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.

Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.

And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.

Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.

The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.

Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.

Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.

I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.

edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry

All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!

I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).

In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.

I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.

Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.

The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.

The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

Rebellions require organisation, a base of operations, personel, extensive training, equipment, and financial resources to support all of the previous. Boys with brooms ain’t gonna cut it. That’s an other thing TLJ threw out of the window, a sense of realism in conflicts, and a sense of scale and time. The FO almost instanteneously wiped out the New Republic at the start of FO, and now the Rebellion has to be rebuild from scratch, much like at the end of ROTS. It took the Alliance two decades to build their organisation between the PT and the OT, but I’m sure by episode IX there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance ready to resume control of the galaxy, where if the film adhered to previous Star Wars continuity, Rey should be looking for the next new hope.

This conversation is literally going in circles.

So here’s what I said a few posts ago:

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

For one the idea that Luke inspired a significant number of star systems to rise up against the FO is an assumption. Most star systems are probably too afraid to act, or even be associated with the Resistance. Inspiration isn’t going to protect them from the FO’s acts of retalliation, should they discover a star system is supporting the Reistance. Luke’s bold gesture may ahve inspired children, but in the grand scheme of things, it has achieved nothing of military value. The FO is as strong as ever, and will be consolidating their power, while the Resistance is decimated to the point, that they have no personal, funds, and equipment.

Secondly, even if several systems were inspired, they can’t openly support the new rebellion. Just like after the rise of the Empire a rebellion will have to be organized out of whole cloth. From the ROTS book and deleted scenes, we know that the first seeds of rebellion were sown the moment Palpatine introduced his new Empire. These were some powerful and influencial people, backed by some powerful and influential systems, but it took them twenty years to fully form the Alliance, and to become a significant threat to the Empire’s power structure. Like I said, if ep. IX adheres to Star Wars continuity (which it won’t), it would take up to two decades to reform a full fledged Alliance, in which case Rey would not be the next Luke, but the next Obi-Wan.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

Rebellions require organisation, a base of operations, personel, extensive training, equipment, and financial resources to support all of the previous. Boys with brooms ain’t gonna cut it. That’s an other thing TLJ threw out of the window, a sense of realism in conflicts, and a sense of scale and time. The FO almost instanteneously wiped out the New Republic at the start of TLJ, and now the Rebellion has to be rebuilt from scratch, much like at the end of ROTS. It took the Alliance two decades to build their organisation between the PT and the OT, but I’m sure by episode IX there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance ready to resume control of the galaxy, where if the film adhered to previous Star Wars continuity, Rey should be looking for the next new hope.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

If the FO continues to act as it does, then some sort of rebellion will win. All oppressive regimes eventually end. Oppression works in the short term but it will eventually lose.

I agree, but it’s an odd way to end the second part of a trilogy. It closely mirrors the end of the PT, where the bad guys win, and the good guys are decimated, and retreat in hopes to fight again one day, which may be decades away.

Isn’t that kind of how ESB ends? I mean, sure, the Resistance in TLJ is in far worse shape than the Rebellion ever was, but as Dom said, they still have the spark that could light the fire — the legend of Luke.

Not really the Alliance was chased from Hoth, but they managed to escape with most of their personal and material. The rest of TESB was completely focussed on our small band of heroes, and Luke’s personal journey. TLJ ends like ROTS.

yhwx said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.

Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.

sounds like the same dude to me.

You’re missing the key context in ROTJ — Luke almost considers killing Vader which would complete his turn to the darkness.

Yes, but he has that important realization, that he would become like his father, right down to the symbology of the artificial hand. He then lies down his weapon, and becomes a Jedi, thus completing his three film arc. He has passed the test so to speak.

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

If the FO continues to act as it does, then some sort of rebellion will win. All oppressive regimes eventually end. Oppression works in the short term but it will eventually lose.

I agree, but it’s an odd way to end the second part of a trilogy. It closely mirrors the end of the PT, where the bad guys win, and the good guys are decimated, and retreat in hopes to fight again one day, which may be decades away.

Collipso said:

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

But what he did to get to that point, the actions he took between RotJ and TFA were very out of character every step of the way for me, and that’s pretty hard for me to accept.

I think there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. Luke snapped, just as he did in ROTJ. He was able to turn away from the dark at the last moment in both cases, but there was nobody to bail him out the second time and he was dealing with a very different situation.

Shouldn’t he have learned something though? Wasn’t it one of the biggest themes in this movie? That you fail to learn? So why are they ignoring RotJ Luke’s progress and failures?

Because Luke is old, and we need a fresh new hero now to sell, one that appeals to the new generation.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

I was more talking about Luke and Ben’s personal conflict than anything else but you can take however you want to.

I know. I’m looking at the bigger picture.

Looking at the bigger bigger picture Luke’s arc and character from the OT were sacrificed in order to make Rey the last of the Jedi. Like, she’s literally at the end of TLJ the same thing that Luke is at the end of RotJ.

The only thing making it not the same exact situation is that in TLJ they took the opposite twist as in the OT: Vader (Ren) killed the emperor (Snoke) and is now the supreme leader of the Galaxy. And the rebels (Resistance) lost to the Empire (first order).

This bothers me.

Luke had the one mission, to recreate the Jedi Order. I’m sorry to quote something from the EU, but Obi-Wan said to Luke in the First of the Thrawn books: “you’re not the last of the old; you’re the First of the new”. And I always thought that way. I find it hard to believe that Luke would be a PT-like Jedi. Heck, I always thought that was the most important part of the overall Darth Vader arc.

And it seems to me that it’s all been sacrificed in order to make Luke Rey’s Yoda, so that she can be the last of the Jedi. Sure, he went out as a badass in maybe my favorite scene in cinema history, but I’m not sure if that makes it up for it.

I agree. It’s a major sacrifice, and I don’t believe the new characters and the very similar story line are worth it.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

yhwx said:

I was more talking about Luke and Ben’s personal conflict than anything else but you can take however you want to.

I know. I’m looking at the bigger picture.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebelling against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. At the end of TLJ the galaxy had apparently accepted the FO’s rule. Nobody answered the Resistance call for support. Now it’s literally hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever again. They won, and it’s up to them to let it slip through their fingers. The remaining Resistance members have no part to play, but wait, and hope they screw up.

NFBisms said:

Even then, it’s clearly not an end-of-war victory; the goal was to get what’s left of the Resistance the hell away from the FO safely, and Luke accomplished it.

No war in the history of the world was won by killing every single enemy soldier. What happened at the end of TLJ wasn’t a victory for the Resistancs in any shape or form. The Resistance lost, but a few survived, as in any lost war. The Resistance has no allies. Everyone has turned their backs to them. If for the sake of argument the FO creates a benevolent dictatorship or perhaps even some form of democracy, the Resistance have zero change of ever rising again. So, the few Resistance members still alive have their fate lying completely in the FO’s hands. The Resistance cannot win, the only thing that can happen is for the FO to screw up. It’s quite ironic really.

yhwx said:

I find the argument that Luke was made too pathetic for this movie to be totally unconvincing. Sure, he’s pretty pathetic in the first part of the movie, but his final act is his finest hour. He does exactly what he does in ROTJ. He refuses to fight. Luke’s a pacifist, and that’s how he manages to win both times. He wins by letting himself die. Ruminate on that for a second.

If in WWII the Nazis were to have managed to beat the Allies so badly, they all could fit in a single military transport aircraft, who then managed to escape, I would not call it a victory for the Allies. The Nazis win the war. Ruminate on that for a second. 😉