“The rebels victory at the end of Return Of The Jedi seems tenuous at best” Chris Taylor, in his bestseller How Star Wars Conquered The Universe.
Tenuous at best.
Yes, just another opinion.
Flash Gordon defeated Ming the Merciless how many times and kept coming back for more?
Yes, and GI Joe defeated Cobra how many times, with Cobra commander shouting retreat, retreat?!!
Good fun, but it is not be my benchmark for great story telling.
I think it’s pretty disingenuous to say they’ve killed all the OT heroes. They only killed Han and Luke. We have no idea what they’ll do with Leia, and if they do kill her, it’s very possible that they only did so because their hands were tied.
Not to mention saying that Luke died as a failure… well obviously if you think that you missed the point entirely.
Victories aren’t forever, everyone dies. Once again, I go back to what I keep saying. People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
Yes, but that’s a very cynical point of view in my opinion. Victories don’t last forever, in the real world, but there’s no denying this trilogy has deflated victory in the Star Wars universe in a huge way. It has undone everything the OT heroes fought for, literally resetting the galaxy back to Empire versus rebels. There’s another Jedi apprentice turned bad versus another new hope. They’ve done nothing to explain how the previous victory was undone. What’s to prevent a Second Order to rise from the ashes of the First One, after the next socalled victory, and a Third Order after that? Victory is hollow now in the Star Wars universe, because another director can just undo it to keep the galaxy in a perpetual state of conflict, without having to explain anything. Just pull another dark side master out of thin air with unlimited resources. I was watching RO today, and was struck how it expands the Star Wars universe. The ST universe feels very tiny by comparison.
Another article trying explain away some fans’ critisms:
https://makingstarwars.net/2018/01/around-the-galaxy-lukes-destiny-discussed/
Apparently the negative opinions are all biased by expectations and such, which then implies that positive opinions are objective?
Why can’t people just stick with explaining why they like or dislike a film, rather than lumping people together in a vain attempt to discredit the opposite side?
Just create a second LUT and apply it after the first one. It should not affect the behaviour of the first LUT unless it is modifying the same color, and if that is the case you want it to modify that color anyway. LUTs can be stacked, it’s pretty neat, and really easy in After Effects of Resolve.
I tried it, I cropped out just the yellow block and did a color match, and then apply it on top of the first LUT in photoshop, but the whole image turned greenish.
target:
reference:
result after global LUT + shoe LUt:
You shouldn’t just zoom on the yellow. You zoom around the yellow in both the test and reference frames with the same cropping, such that you keep as many of the other colors as possible. The algorithm cannot guess how you want the other colors to look, so you need to include them. There’s no guarantee it will work, because if you leave out one part of the frame, it may alter the unique colors of those parts as a conseqience of getting the correct yellow.
Dragon Ball Kai 1-98 use a differrent color palette than the dragon ball z series, all colors channel aren’t exactly the same that’s why you can’t duplicate z colors to them.
For 99 to the end you can for sure use as it was not done the same wayabout dragon ball z bluray , colors are almost okay, film also have tint in the white and some slight alteration like the yellow being too much green and other slight things and yes there is crushed black, overbrightness and excessive saturation
movies also need color correction for what i have seen from the funi movies bluray
your references are good but for the kai 1-98 just keep the color exactly as they are
i already tried this tools and it only fail when the source you want to correct isn’t suppose to have the same colors (i tried with the dbz first episode preview that have goku arm in red (color error) that was corrected in the episode…i tried to color match the dbox footage with the broadcast colors and it didn’t change the arm color cause it wasn’t suppose to have this color
The issue I have with the program is that the algorithm tends to miss color in smaller areas of the image. This example shows it:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/0FCNNN8UThe big areas like the sky, the mountain and trees are all matched, but smaller areas like the wrist band, Goten’s robe, the rocks, Videl’s shoes are all missed.
I would advice using more color spaces, because it can definitely be much improved. Here a used 100 color spaces with the smoothing parameter set to 0.01:
It takes a little while to get some experience how to use the tool, but it should give satisfactory results most of the time. In general more color spaces will produce a more accurate result, but it will be slower. Increasing the smoothing parameter reduces artifacts, but also the accuracy, such that you often need more color spaces for a better result.
Um I am using the 64 bit version and it stated 250 color space instead of 100, and the result of the 250 color space is exactly the same as 10, looks like a bug there.
Yeah I have already improved my workflow to get better accuracy, such as auto-aligning and cropping the images with photoshop, which improve the accuracy by some noticeable margins. I just want to see if it can be improved on the color matching of those smaller areas, like the shoes and rocks.
The tool was never tested for 64 bit, so I can’t comment on that. Williarob compiled a 64 bit version as a favour, but beyond that it’s at this point not supported. Either way I got a better match with the settings I used for the 32 bit version.
How would you deal with those smaller areas?
There are three options:
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.
And I had to edit it.
And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.
Admiral Motti had a similar issue.
I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.
My base level of discomfort comes from the fact, that the ST doesn’t attempt to connect to the rest of the saga. It simply resets the galaxy to a pre-ROTJ state, without even attempting provide any overarching story thread. It just feels tagged on.
You have to look at the film holistically to understand.
To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?
Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.
Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos. Maybe you just won’t see it. And that’s far less interesting than you understanding but disagreeing with the argument.
The most clear “evidence” of the “jerking around” thesis is, that TLJ’s story seems to be driven by the twists, rather the twists being driven by the story. Almost every twist is a variation on an OT story thread, as if RJ wanted to avoid being accused of rehashing the OT by doing the opposite. I’ve said this before, but TLJ is not as original as many seem to believe.
Dragon Ball Kai 1-98 use a differrent color palette than the dragon ball z series, all colors channel aren’t exactly the same that’s why you can’t duplicate z colors to them.
For 99 to the end you can for sure use as it was not done the same wayabout dragon ball z bluray , colors are almost okay, film also have tint in the white and some slight alteration like the yellow being too much green and other slight things and yes there is crushed black, overbrightness and excessive saturation
movies also need color correction for what i have seen from the funi movies bluray
your references are good but for the kai 1-98 just keep the color exactly as they are
i already tried this tools and it only fail when the source you want to correct isn’t suppose to have the same colors (i tried with the dbz first episode preview that have goku arm in red (color error) that was corrected in the episode…i tried to color match the dbox footage with the broadcast colors and it didn’t change the arm color cause it wasn’t suppose to have this color
The issue I have with the program is that the algorithm tends to miss color in smaller areas of the image. This example shows it:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/0FCNNN8UThe big areas like the sky, the mountain and trees are all matched, but smaller areas like the wrist band, Goten’s robe, the rocks, Videl’s shoes are all missed.
I would advice using more color spaces, because it can definitely be much improved. Here a used 100 color spaces with the smoothing parameter set to 0.01:
It takes a little while to get some experience how to use the tool, but it should give satisfactory results most of the time. In general more color spaces will produce a more accurate result, but it will be slower. Increasing the smoothing parameter reduces artifacts, but also the accuracy, such that you often need more color spaces for a better result.
Um I am using the 64 bit version and it stated 250 color space instead of 100, and the result of the 250 color space is exactly the same as 10, looks like a bug there.
Yeah I have already improved my workflow to get better accuracy, such as auto-aligning and cropping the images with photoshop, which improve the accuracy by some noticeable margins. I just want to see if it can be improved on the color matching of those smaller areas, like the shoes and rocks.
The tool was never tested for 64 bit, so I can’t comment on that. Williarob compiled a 64 bit version as a favour, but beyond that it’s at this point not supported. Either way I got a better match with the settings I used for the 32 bit version.
Dragon Ball Kai 1-98 use a differrent color palette than the dragon ball z series, all colors channel aren’t exactly the same that’s why you can’t duplicate z colors to them.
For 99 to the end you can for sure use as it was not done the same wayabout dragon ball z bluray , colors are almost okay, film also have tint in the white and some slight alteration like the yellow being too much green and other slight things and yes there is crushed black, overbrightness and excessive saturation
movies also need color correction for what i have seen from the funi movies bluray
your references are good but for the kai 1-98 just keep the color exactly as they are
i already tried this tools and it only fail when the source you want to correct isn’t suppose to have the same colors (i tried with the dbz first episode preview that have goku arm in red (color error) that was corrected in the episode…i tried to color match the dbox footage with the broadcast colors and it didn’t change the arm color cause it wasn’t suppose to have this color
The issue I have with the program is that the algorithm tends to miss color in smaller areas of the image. This example shows it:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/0FCNNN8UThe big areas like the sky, the mountain and trees are all matched, but smaller areas like the wrist band, Goten’s robe, the rocks, Videl’s shoes are all missed.
I would advice using more color spaces, because it can definitely be much improved. Here a used 100 color spaces with the smoothing parameter set to 0.01:
Reference:
Color match:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/WWLNNN8X
LUT:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Km1UAXeeBd5G1rB9ffcgYVPBGEr0B7CX/view?usp=sharing
It takes a little while to get some experience how to use the tool, but it should give satisfactory results most of the time. In general more color spaces will produce a more accurate result, but it will be slower. Increasing the smoothing parameter reduces artifacts, but also the accuracy, such that you often need more color spaces for a better result.
[yotsuya said:]
Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.
Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.
But no mention of the First Order, one of the cruxes of your argument.
He mentions Snoke, who runs the FO, and how is the FO one of the cruxes? He saw enough suffering to want to kill his own blood. The same man who refused to kill Darth Vader, the second most evil man in the galaxy, responsible for the death and suffering of millions of people. That should tell you enough about the scale of the suffering he saw, for Luke to be so distressed.
[yotsuya said:]
Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.
Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.
There’s a difference between being a “legendary hero” in the context of our real life view of the OT as a story told on film and being a legendary hero in universe and all that comes with that meaning (though of course the two are metatextually related).
The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?
The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.
The original Star Wars is my all time favorite movie. But it’s not my favorite movie as the first film of a saga or as the fourth. It’s my favorite movie as a standalone, modern mythic adventure fairy tale. I can still watch it and love it in this way, even though Empire necessarily complicates the characters and the universe (and the myth) beyond what we see in the original. Empire can’t take anything away from Star Wars, it can only add to it. That’s what the ST does to the OT.
Yes, but as a critic I ask myself, did it have to completely break the myth of the OT in order to further the story? The ST is willing to deconstruct classic heroes, but it is inwilling to forgoe the underlying conflict of Empire versus rebels, and the OT aesthetic. Why were the classic heroes sacrificed in order to to be replaced by a new generation of heroes placed in an almost identical situation? That doesn’t feel like a natural story extension. It feels like a reboot. I think it’s fair to criticize those story choices.
It’s definitely fair to dislike the direction they’ve taken. I don’t agree with all aspects of it myself. But in general I definitely think this was not only the right way to go, but the necessary way to go.
I don’t know. I miss the days when there were just three movies, and 9 out of 10 people agreed, they were good.
I know I keep saying this, but that’s totally up to you. Just stop reading this thread!
I’m half-kidding, obviously you should continue to debate TLJ as long as you like, but the only one that can make the old days come back is you.
I’m not that powerful. I can’t make 9 out of 10 people think all the Star Wars films are good. I can’t even make myself think that. it’s just pathetic, really.
[yotsuya said:]
Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.
There’s a difference between being a “legendary hero” in the context of our real life view of the OT as a story told on film and being a legendary hero in universe and all that comes with that meaning (though of course the two are metatextually related).
The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?
The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.
The original Star Wars is my all time favorite movie. But it’s not my favorite movie as the first film of a saga or as the fourth. It’s my favorite movie as a standalone, modern mythic adventure fairy tale. I can still watch it and love it in this way, even though Empire necessarily complicates the characters and the universe (and the myth) beyond what we see in the original. Empire can’t take anything away from Star Wars, it can only add to it. That’s what the ST does to the OT.
Yes, but as a critic I ask myself, did it have to completely break the myth of the OT in order to further the story? The ST is willing to deconstruct classic heroes, but it is inwilling to forgoe the underlying conflict of Empire versus rebels, and the OT aesthetic. Why were the classic heroes sacrificed in order to to be replaced by a new generation of heroes placed in an almost identical situation? That doesn’t feel like a natural story extension. It feels like a reboot. I think it’s fair to criticize those story choices.
It’s definitely fair to dislike the direction they’ve taken. I don’t agree with all aspects of it myself. But in general I definitely think this was not only the right way to go, but the necessary way to go.
I don’t know. I miss the days when there were just three movies, and 9 out of 10 people agreed, they were good. I would prefer Disney put their effort into creating original stories with original characters. Give me another Star Wars like experience, not another Star Wars experience. Been there, done that.
If nothing else, you have to admit that when all is said and done, this 9 episode Skywalker series, whatever it ends up looking like, has at least re-contextualized the saga in a way that’s easier to stomach than “The Tragedy of Darth Vader” that we got when the prequels were added to the mix.
Yes, I can agree with that.
Edit: Gotcha, didn’t I, Frink!
There’s a difference between being a “legendary hero” in the context of our real life view of the OT as a story told on film and being a legendary hero in universe and all that comes with that meaning (though of course the two are metatextually related).
The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?
The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.
The original Star Wars is my all time favorite movie. But it’s not my favorite movie as the first film of a saga or as the fourth. It’s my favorite movie as a standalone, modern mythic adventure fairy tale. I can still watch it and love it in this way, even though Empire necessarily complicates the characters and the universe (and the myth) beyond what we see in the original. Empire can’t take anything away from Star Wars, it can only add to it. That’s what the ST does to the OT.
Yes, but as a critic I ask myself, did it have to completely break the myth of the OT in order to further the story? The ST is willing to deconstruct classic heroes, but it is inwilling to forgoe the underlying conflict of Empire versus rebels, and the OT aesthetic. Why were the classic heroes sacrificed in order to to be replaced by a new generation of heroes placed in an almost identical situation? That doesn’t feel like a natural story extension. It feels like a reboot. I think it’s fair to criticize those story choices.
It’s definitely fair to dislike the direction they’ve taken. I don’t agree with all aspects of it myself. But in general I definitely think this was not only the right way to go, but the necessary way to go.
I don’t know. I miss the days when there were just three movies, and 9 out of 10 people agreed, they were good. I would prefer Disney put their effort into creating original stories with original characters. Give me another Star Wars like experience, not another Star Wars experience. Been there, done that.
Future generations have just as much ability to choose how much of the saga they want as their canon. Probably more so, since they won’t be blinded by nostalgia for any of it.
I suppose, but I for one am happy that Robert Zemeckis never gave into the pressure to create another BTTF film. Sometimes the story is just finished.
Lol nicely played.
Who was it who said that again?
I actually don’t know.
Future generations have just as much ability to choose how much of the saga they want as their canon. Probably more so, since they won’t be blinded by nostalgia for any of it.
I suppose, but I for one am happy that Robert Zemeckis never gave into the pressure to create another BTTF film. Sometimes the story is just finished.
Yes, this whole “they’re ruining the OT” argument makes absolutely no sense. Rian Johnson isn’t scribbling a marker all over the negatives of Star Wars, folks.
It’s not about ruining the OT. Future generations are going to watch this story as a nine part saga. So, it seems fair to discuss, whether the nine part saga is a better or worse story than the six part saga, just like it is fair to discuss, whether the six part Lucas saga is better or worse than the original trilogy.
There’s a difference between being a “legendary hero” in the context of our real life view of the OT as a story told on film and being a legendary hero in universe and all that comes with that meaning (though of course the two are metatextually related).
The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?
The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.
The original Star Wars is my all time favorite movie. But it’s not my favorite movie as the first film of a saga or as the fourth. It’s my favorite movie as a standalone, modern mythic adventure fairy tale. I can still watch it and love it in this way, even though Empire necessarily complicates the characters and the universe (and the myth) beyond what we see in the original. Empire can’t take anything away from Star Wars, it can only add to it. That’s what the ST does to the OT.
Yes, but as a critic I ask myself, did it have to completely break the myth of the OT in order to further the story? The ST is willing to deconstruct classic heroes, but it is inwilling to forgoe the underlying conflict of Empire versus rebels, and the OT aesthetic. Why were the classic heroes sacrificed in order to to be replaced by a new generation of heroes placed in an almost identical situation? That doesn’t feel like a natural story extension. It feels like a reboot. I think it’s fair to criticize those story choices.
The original fairy tales are also a lot darker than the sanitized versions most people are familiar with today.
Most myths too of course, complete happy endings in those were a little elusive.
Not to mention, of course, Star Wars has never been just a fairy tale. That’s just one aspect of it. And it was never supposed to be just another myth. It was supposed to be the creation of a new modern myth. Deconstruction has been built into the franchise since the beginning.
Yes, but it still strictly adheres to the hero’s journey, since Lucas was a great admirer of Joseph Campbell. Lucas created a modern myth, but that has now been broken to extend the story. The decisive victory was turned into a short lived one, and the hero of the story fell from his pedestal, foregoing all his beliefs.
I think it is perfectly fine to enjoy the ongoing story, but we should also be able to view the OT in it’s original context. I don’t think it is fair to just view the previous films through the retconned vision of the ST. This is what happens, when people argue, that the critics view Luke in the wrong way, wanting him to be this legendary hero. He was the legendary hero, as is consistent with the final stage of the hero’s journey, but that mythical status was stripped away in order to continue the story.
DrDre said:
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.But Luke says it himself in this film. He isn’t a legend. He is a man. And the legend is not who he is. It is not how I ever pictured him. I guess its one reason I never got into the EU.
The Luke as written by RJ says this. You might not have pictured him as a legend, but that doesn’t have to apply to everyone else.
We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.
Show me a true revolution in our history that ended with the winners establishing a lasting peaceful replacement. ROTJ ended on a high note because all we saw was a victory celebration (Endor in the OOT and Endor, Tatooine, Bespin, Coruscant, and Naboo in the SE-OT). Even in the EU it was not a clean victory. In ROTJ the Empire was decapitated, but by abolishing the senate and leaving the regional governors in charge, Palpatine ensured that even if he was defeated that the Republic could not be easily restored. The ST is taking that to a more realistic conclusion by giving us the First Order, something that rose from the ashes of the Empire. The Thrawn Trilogy gave us something interesting, but this has more realistic feel to it.
Yes, but Star Wars is not a true revolution. It is a work of fiction, a myth. The OT at it’s heart is a fairy tale set in space. Fairy tales and myths don’t adhere to real life. Snow White didn’t have an extra-marrital affair, Cinderalla wasn’t addicted to drugs, and sleeping beauty didn’t suffer from narcolepsy. I suppose it would make them more human, but it would take away from the their mythical status.
The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.
Again, the Luke in ROTJ was really not that lofty. He was the same old Luke but had gained confidence. That is why he became a Jedi. He had overcome his failings. But as like you mention alcholism, a person’s failings often lie just under the surface, awaiting a failure to bring them out again. So to me Luke in TLJ and his journey from the fateful fall of his school to now is a very realistic portrayal of someone who had reach such heights and has had such a huge failure.
Again Star Wars as written by George Lucas was not meant to be realistic. Luke’s arc in the OT is a hero’s journey. Campbell described the basic narrative pattern as follows:
“A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.”
The three stages of the hero’s journey are:
Luke had reached the final stage of his journey, and a decisive victory was won. There’s no fourth stage, where the hero fails. RJ has added one, and Luke’s story thus no longer fits with the hero myth. He’s become more real, but at the expense of the myth.
The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.
As we have watch Luke’s journey over the three films of the OT, we should all be painfully aware that Luke is a man with failings and that for a time he rose above those failings. That doesn’t mean he can’t fall. Such a huge failure as is described is enough to destroy your average person. Someone with Luke’s known failings in the OT, would do just what we are told he did. Your statements prove that you didn’t see the man Luke was and only saw the hero he became. Anakin was a hero and look at what the fear of losing his wife did to him and then how much further her actual loss ruined him. But his son brought him back.
Star Wars was not about the man, it was about the myth. Anakin had his journey, and he was ultimately redeemed. Let’s for the sake of argument assume Darth Vader didn’t die. A writer could cock up a story, where Vader relapses, and once again joins the dark side. People relapse, it’s realistic. However, it would severely undermine Anakin’s arc in the six film saga.
Also, a big part that people are missing in this discussion on Luke is that he cut himself off from the force. He cut himself off from knowing what was going on. He didn’t know that the First Order had grown so strong. He didn’t know that Snoke had grown so powerful. He didn’t know anything. He didn’t know his best friend had died. Leia knew instantly. Luke had to be told. He completely cut himself off from the force and was just a man living on an island. He had no idea that Leia and the Republic needed him. He may not have even know that Kylo Ren had joined Snoke before he vanished to the island. So saying he would never have gone to the island because Luke would never have left the Galaxy in such a predicament fails to take into account that he has no idea. That was not the situation when he went there. That was not the situation when TFA started and he’s been on that island a lot longer than that.
Sorry, but this is just not true. The entire premise of TLJ is, that Luke has seen the suffering Kylo would cause in his vision. He knew exactly what might happen, but ultimately he did nothing to stop it.
So, realistic portrayal of toppling a despotic regime, realistic portrayal of a fallen hero, and a realistic portrayal of a character based on actual psychology and the given traits of the character (I checked up on that with some people who know these things), and you have a very realistic setting for the ST to take place in.
Again Star Wars is not realistic. The hero’s journey and myths are not realistic. They are not meant to be.
No, it is not the story you wanted, but it is not flawed in the way you describe it. It is flawed from your view because you see Luke as a legendary hero and that the heroes of the OT should not have failed like they have in the years between the OT and ST.
Luke was a legendary hero, as follows from the hero’s journey. It’s not what I wanted, it is the way it was. That was allways the intent. His story was supposed to end in ROTJ. Of course then Lucas decided to sell his company, and there had to be a ST with the classic characters, and so they had to somehow extend the story. The ST has unrevalled the mythology of the OT in order to do this. Some will like this approach, and others won’t. I will allways prefer the myth, but I like the more realistic approach of the ST enough to want to see, how it plays out.
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…
Not to take away from your point or focus too much on pedantics. It’s simply a pet peeve of mine I see thrown out way too often. But I really, really, really wish we could knock out this misconception that Santa Claus has an “e” in it. I don’t know if it was the Tim Allen movie that did it (the title of that movie is a pun), or if it was widespread before that, but this has to stop! It has to stop, I say!!!
I stand corrected. Where I live we have Sinterklaas
Ah, a Dutchman? I knew I liked ya!
You too?
Dre, did you ever get back to see a second showing of TLJ? (I skipped like 15 - 20 pages of this topic so i missed if that ever happened). I am just curious what your experience was like compared to the first viewing.
Yeah, I liked it better the second time. I could enjoy it more on it’s own terms. I’m a bit in two minds about it. I think I will allways prefer the story of the classic characters to end with ROTJ, having ushered in a long period of peace, and justice in the galaxy, but I can enjoy the less fairy tale like approach of the ST, even if I feel it doesn’t really tell a new story with the reprise of the Empire versus rebels scenario. I think it is time for an entirely new story set in a different era.
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…
Not to take away from your point or focus too much on pedantics. It’s simply a pet peeve of mine I see thrown out way too often. But I really, really, really wish we could knock out this misconception that Santa Claus has an “e” in it. I don’t know if it was the Tim Allen movie that did it (the title of that movie is a pun), or if it was widespread before that, but this has to stop! It has to stop, I say!!!
I stand corrected. Where I live we have Sinterklaas, and Santa Claus is called Kerstman, or Christmasman. 😃
