DrDre

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Well said, mate.

Not well said. As long as debates are civil, any subject should be open for discussion. I don’t tell anyone else what they should or should not write about, and I expect the same courtesy.

Anchorhead suggested ‘However, maybe give some serious thought to focusing on what you like’ - there’s nowt wrong with that - if you have a problem with that - that’s your problem.

He also said ‘By all means feel free to vent, deconstruct, debate, rage, etc.’ - so what is your problem here?
 

My problem is with the concept of a moderator giving advice on what people should focus on in their debates. In my opinion the focus should always be on the content, not on the people who write the content, and their motives.

That the seemingly endless repeated and circular negative content in here has become an issue

An issue for whom? For those that don’t agree with that content?

where a moderator has asked members to maybe also give some thought to the things they like about the film - in amongst the ‘free to vent, deconstruct, debate, rage’ - and you give him or me shit for it… says a lot - about you.

What’s that supposed to mean? Moderators can do personal attacks now? I’m advocating for a “discuss the films, and not the fans” policy. I don’t see why that would warrent such a response.

I will stop discussing the subject, since I don’t want to keep going off subject, but this is a serious issue for me.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Well said, mate.

Not well said. As long as debates are civil, any subject should be open for discussion. I don’t tell anyone else what they should or should not write about, and I expect the same courtesy.

Anchorhead suggested ‘However, maybe give some serious thought to focusing on what you like’ - there’s nowt wrong with that - if you have a problem with that - that’s your problem.

He also said ‘By all means feel free to vent, deconstruct, debate, rage, etc.’ - so what is your problem here?
 

My problem is with the concept of a moderator giving advice on what people should focus on in their debates. In my opinion the focus should always be on debating the content, not on the people who write the content, and their motives, unless their behaviour is in some way inappropriate.

I’m personally very much in favour of the general rule strictly maintained at boards.theforce.net, namely “Discuss the films, not the fans”.

oojason said:

Well said, mate.

Not well said. As long as debates are civil, any subject should be open for discussion. I don’t tell anyone else what they should or should not write about, and I expect the same courtesy.

Anchorhead said:

Frank your Majesty said:
This rehash argument is just the Ring theory with a twist. Instead of using these constructed superficial “similarities” to show how great the prequels are, they are now a sign of how bad the new movies are. Why can’t angry fans come up with something new? Do they want to alienate other fans?

Why do angry fans have to come up with anything? Why don’t they just watch the movies they like and ignore what they don’t like? This is a 40 year old franchise spanning several generations. It consists of nine films, several TV shows, animated movies, hundreds of novels, children’s books, video games, comic books, newspaper series, theme parks, annual conventions, etc, etc.

There is absolutely no way the franchise can be one size fits all. I can’t make sense of fans battling a franchise they like and I really can’t fathom battling a different portion of the fan base. There isn’t a brolly girl waiting with a big cardboard check. No one is going to win Star Wars.

By all means feel free to vent, deconstruct, debate, rage, etc. I do it occasionally myself. It’s what makes this forum work. However, maybe give some serious thought to focusing on what you like. The stuff we don’t like about the franchise isn’t going away.

This assumes ranting about stuff you dislike is unpleasant. Why do you have to focus on the stuff you like? Is it because it is in some way bad for you, or because the opposite side doesn’t want to read these rants? I suspect the latter. Every time someone writes a passionate critique of the film, we get these suggestions to focus on stuff we like. In other words stop b****ing about stuff that I like. Well I like to write about this stuff, amongst other things.

Yeah, I’ve been working on the new color matching algorithm, and some other unrelated so it may take a while. The next version of the tool is going to be a major overhaul.

TV’s Frink said:

Zak fett said:

Do you think Ren will turn or die.

Everyone dies.

Ren will turn everyone, and the FO will rule forever. All hail the Supreme Leader!

Matt.F said:

“There’s no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

Dre, that’s not what we see in the two movies thus far. The First Order seem to have a serious Arsenal but we don’t ever see any garrisons or colonial troops on any planets like we did so frequently with the Empire.

In fact the FO don’t have a presence on any of the planets we see in the ST, they turn up and attack like raiders then depart.

It’s what RJ put into the crawl and dialogue. If he didn’t want the viewer to have the impression, that the FO is an unstoppable force, he wouldn’t have put it in.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

They haven’t won anything? They’ve beaten the military opposition so badly, they fit in a single ship. That’s a win if I ever saw one. The FO were poised to take over in weeks before this win. It is a mathematical certainty now that the opposition has been eliminated.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

You’re joking right? The FO has decimated the New Republic, and reduced the Resistance to a single ship with a few dozen people on board. The rebellion has no personel, equipment, or funds. TLJ was a huge victory for the FO, with the Resistance getting a consolation prize with the legend of Luke Skywalker, that may have lit a spark to start rebuilding a rebellion over the years to come. This being fiction they naturally will. However, if we can call the Alliance’s victory at the end of ROTJ tenuous in real world terms, the Resistance is as dead as a door nail by TLJ’s end credits.

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

But Lando isn’t shady by any means when we meet him in Empire. He’s an upstanding citizen and a successful businessman. The only similarity between Lando and Benny del Toro (literally don’t know the character’s name) is that they both betray our protagonists.

HAN
Yeah, a Tibanna gas mine. Lando conned somebody out of it. We go back a long way, Lando and me.

LEIA
Can you trust him?

HAN
No. But he has no love for the Empire, I can tell you that.

Con man + untrustworthy = shady character

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

Let’s not forget this is another story thread taken directly from the middle chapter of the previous trilogy used in the middle chapter of this one.

Yes, let’s. The only comparison to be made is that DJ betrays them.

There really isn’t a lot to compare. Neither DJ or Lando are particulary developed in their respective films. They’re both set up to be less than thrustworthy allies, and they both end up betraying the heroes in the middle chapter of the trilogy.

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

Why have a ground assault at all? Why have another ground assault in the middle chapter of a trilogy? Why have one that evokes the battle of Hoth? Been there, done that. The planet is white. It’s Hoth visually with a twist.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

That’s the twist. It’s the hallmark of the ST. Rehash something from the OT, and refurbish it just enough that it can pass off as new.

ROTJ throne room sequence with a twist:

Imperial guards with a twist:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Sorry Dre. Can’t really agree with you on this one. Films use visuals from other films as their inspiration all the time. If you work hard enough at it, you can call “rehash!” in most films.

Yes, but in this case the ST is inspired by the OT a lot, in terms if visuals, and the story threads. Like I said, the vast majority of story threads are in some way a variation on an OT story thread.

Also, by your logic wouldn’t Lando Calrissian be a Han Solo rehash with a twist?

No, Han Solo never betrayed his comrades by selling them out to the bad guys. Let’s not forget this is another story thread taken directly from the middle chapter of the previous trilogy used in the middle chapter of this one.

yotsuya said:
So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory.

I don’t agree. Even at the Rebellion’s lowest point in TESB, there was a fleet, personel and, infrastructure. The ST has reduced the New Republic to a single ship, and the legend of Luke Skywalker, who faced down the FO alone. Not a single achievement of the classic characters was left standing.

Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi.

Which is the only thing he’s passed on. Yoda passed on a whole lot more to Luke in the OT.

What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get.

Yeah, like the people in the final scene of ROTJ SE hoped for, but didn’t get. ROTJ ended with Luke causing the destruction of the Emperor and his right hand man, a significant part of the Imperial fleet, and the Death Star. I’m sure that’s quite a bit more inspiring than Luke facing down the FO. If that doesn’t result in a clamor for democracy (one we’ve actually witnessed and after two decades of terror), I don’t know what will. Snoke was pulled out of thin air, and disappeared into thin air. Who knows how many Snokes are waiting in some unknown region of the galaxy. The ST has severely deflated the concept of victory not only for the OT, but for victories in the Star Wars universe as a whole. It has made any future victory, including the one we’re bound to get at the end of ep. IX, meaningless.

The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Until someone decides to throw in another wrench, and so the endless cycle of reboots continues…

chyron8472 said:

Where I’m at with it is this:

Do you want to like the film? Yes or No?

Constantly picking it apart for why it’s stupid, unoriginal, inferior, or whatever else doesn’t enhance the viewing experience. It doesn’t increase my liking for it nor the franchise. I would rather find reasons to enjoy it, and focus on them; and if I don’t enjoy it, I’d rather just move along as though these aren’t the droids I’m looking for and find something else to enjoy instead.

Sure, there are criticisms to be made, but once the horse is dead there is no reason to keep beating it.

Talking for myself, I just like discussing Star Wars the good and the bad. I don’t feel like having to find reasons to enjoy it, or not to enjoy it. You either like it, or you don’t, or you’re on the fence.

one69chev said:

My issues with the recycling of the ST are not exclusive to TLJ; it was a big issue for me with TFA as well. As much as I detest the prequels, I can say that at least the stories were original; they weren’t great by any means, but they were for the most part original.

It’s such an odd feeling to have a renewed appreciation for what Lucas attempted to do, even if he failed in the end.

Frank your Majesty said:

Honestly, I don’t see the problem with these superficial similarities. At least we get decent movies that look like Star Wars with great characters, something the prequels failed to do. I’m quite happy with that. Of course nothing new compares to your own headcanon that you cultivated over many years.

It’s not new, that’s the problem. The prequels told it’s own story, badly. It had many original concepts, that were executed badly. The ST feels like an alternate reality version of the OT. It’s the same meat with different gravy. The execution is better than the prequels sure, but isn’t it just possible to come up with something original?

Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

Why have a ground assault at all? Why have another ground assault in the middle chapter of a trilogy? Why have one that evokes the battle of Hoth? Been there, done that. The planet is white. It’s Hoth visually with a twist.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

That’s the twist. It’s the hallmark of the ST. Rehash something from the OT, and refurbish it just enough that it can pass off as new.

ROTJ throne room sequence with a twist:

Imperial guards with a twist:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Frank your Majesty said:

DominicCobb said:

No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.

Frank your Majesty said:

your problem is basically that there are AT-ATs in the movie.

No:

• White planet that’s similar to Hoth
• Rebel base is attacked
• Rebels fight from trenches
• Walkers assault

This is an AT-AT in a mostly original movie:

This is a rehash of the battle of Hoth with a twist:

Matt.F said:

If you’re using an album analogy, then surely the Special Edition is the ‘remastered’ re-release with bonus track.

It is. The ST is a remix of old tracks with an updated orchestration, and a few bonus tracks.

The ST are new albums by an old band, and yes stylistically they haven’t changed that much but they have still topped the charts and been critically acclaimed.

New albums?

TFA = ANH + TESB + twists

TLJ = TESB + ROTJ + twists

You would be hard pressed to find a story thread in the ST, that isn’t in some way derived from an OT story thread.

Dre, you are just one of those ‘living in the past’ curmudgeonly fans who grumbles that there early stuff was better!

That’s because it is.

Frank your Majesty said:

NeverarGreat said:

an AT-AT battle on a white planet

DominicCobb said:

No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.

So you’re nitpicking visual similarities now? But then, the planet isn’t really white, it’s red, with a white cover and when the salt is blown away, the visual similarities start to vanish.

It’s not really white? It just looks that way? I see, it’s Mars disguised as Hoth. Seriously though, we have a white planet, and a walker assault on a rebel base. Sounds like a Hoth reprise to me. It’s Hoth with a twist, like almost everything in the ST is the OT with a twist. Adding a twist does not make a story thread original. This to me is the ST’s greatest weakness. It should have told an original story, that flows naturally from the OT. In stead it largely rehashes the OT, adds a few twists, and deconstructs the classical characters to fit the mold.

If it were not for the classic characters returning, and the fact that they’re technically eps. VII AND VIII, these films would not be called sequels, but a reboot, a reworking of an original story, namely the OT.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Part of the thing is that Luke/Leia/Han are no longer the central heroes. So expecting them to show us these big events in their lives is expecting a different approach entirely. They are no longer the focus.

Plus, part of the idea here is starting at the lowest point (or near close to it) and finding the hope and fighting forward for the light from there.

I agree with you, but starting at the lowest point with a new hope is literally the plot of the OT, and we’ve already seen it.

No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.

How so? The basic story premise is the same. Evil Empire has to be stopped by fledgling rebellion. Another Jedi apprentice has been seduced by the dark side, while another new hope waits in the wings to stop him.

I think enough has been written on how TFA is very similar to ANH with some TESB in there as well.

While TLJ subverts expectations to an extend, it’s still very much a mix of TESB and ROTJ scenes:

• Empire chase rebels albeit much slower
• Another Jedi apprentice meets a reluctant master albeit a lot more extreme
• Another throne room sequence, where the apprentice kills the dark side master
• Another battle of Hoth complete with walkers

Then there’s the aesthetics, which are slightly modernized take on the OT aesthetics, but definitely not their own thing.

The ST is like a greatest hits album, where the songs are in a different order with a couple of new songs thrown in the mix for good measure, and perhaps some new orchestrations. As with any greatest hits album, the context of the original albums from which the songs were taken is lost. Some new context is provided with the new songs, but it ultimately feels much weaker IMO, because it’s not an original album by an original artist, but a cover band emulating the original artist by mostly remixing his old hits.