You lost me at “scientific perspective.”
It’s not even necessary to invoke science. Logic will do just fine. Fantasy movies do not have to adhere to science, but they have to make logical sense in-universe.
Having seen The Last Jedi for the second time after not being sure if I liked it or not for the first time, I hate to say that I do not like this film. Seeing it again just showed its problems more and while I really wanted to like these, I have to say the ST isn’t for me, just like the prequels. While it has its moments that actually are pretty good, there are stuff that are cringeworthy, even PT level. Meh. Of course I’ll go see Episode IX but I couldn’t care less what happens, they could all just die and it wouldn’t matter one bit.
It’s not enough to not like it, you must sign a petition begging Disney to wipe it from canon to prove your zeal!!
Just like it is apparently not enough to like it, you must make tired jokes about a stupid petition to prove your zeal…
We all suck equally!
No, I suck more! You suck at sucking!
Really enjoying this guy’s rants lately:
Geeks and Gamers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSWaeCipSBEI enjoyed some of his stuff too. 😃
I think what your reply indicates generally is that people have made up their minds long ago and they haven’t been changed after 226 pages.
And why does my reply imply this specifically? There were a number of replies before mine? Should only those that are critical change their mind?
also this. not only that, but in the context of the share your post was the only positive one.
If there’s one thing I dislike, it’s this idea you have conform to the opinion of some vague majority, who in some cases feel they have to convince the heretics they should change their minds after they’ve been confronted with 226 pages of irrefutable facts regarding TLJ’s general awesomeness.
Really enjoying this guy’s rants lately:
Geeks and Gamers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSWaeCipSBEI enjoyed some of his stuff too. 😃
I think what your reply indicates generally is that people have made up their minds long ago and they haven’t been changed after 226 pages.
And why does my reply imply this specifically? There were a number of replies before mine. Should only those that are critical change their mind? Can’t we just exchange views without one side having to convince the other their view is the “correct” one? And why do you assume all my perspectives on this film have not changed over the course of these discussions? I appreciate some aspects of TLJ more now, but overall I still feel it is a bad Star Wars movie, which is a perfectly acceptable opinion.
Really enjoying this guy’s rants lately:
Geeks and Gamers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSWaeCipSBE
I enjoyed some of his stuff too. 😃
Everyone stop posting here and it will all be fine.
Obviously a rip-off from “The Dog Without A Tail - Part II”! Scandelous!
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Neither am I 😉.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, they argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent most of the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately stuck to Lucas’ old recipe, and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe in many respects, while altering a few key aspects of Lucas’ recipe for the worse, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
I think Lucas was more than simply “influenced.” I don’t have a problem with not calling the original Star Wars original because I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s still my favorite film after all.
I’d just argue that no SW film since the first has had the same “new and original recipe,” including ESB and ROTJ. Their “recipes” are firmly rooted in what was done in the previous film(s). Same with the ST, only there’ve been more previous films. Are the tropes that the ST is pulling from SW tropes? Absolutely, you’ve nailed that that’s how I see it. And again, to me that just makes sense, it seems a natural extension of the franchise at this point in time (it only seems fitting for these films to be influenced by what came before, just like Lucas, only now what’s come before are SW movies - films which have had an enormous impact on cinema in general and this genre of storytelling specifically).
I forgot to respond to this one. The difference between the ST, and the OT sequels, and the PT is, that Lucas’ sequels progressed the story in new directions. Sure all his films used Star Wars tropes, but the ST is unique in the sense, that it essentially retells the same story we’ve seen before, where a small rebel force fights a tyrannical regime led by an evil Force user. We have another Jedi student turning on his master, and being instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi Order. We have another young person living on a desert planet, who turns out to be the new hope, and then I’ve not even touched on recycling the concept of a super weapon, a walker assault on a white planet, a confrontation in a throne room, etc, etc.
Then there’s the fact that both the good guys and the bad guys look very much like they did in the OT, and use very similar equipment. Sure, some new characters and elements were added, but overall the basic story premise and the aesthetics are the same. A few changes in characters and structure are not going to change that. There were a ton of possibilities in coming up with completely new stories, characters, and visuals that did not involve recycling large parts the OT, while still incorporating Star Wars tropes like the Force, lightsabers, space battles, and what not. However, the current creators chose to take the safe route, and rather than take the franchise in a new direction narratively and visually, gave us a loosely based remake of the OT, and worst of all, they chose to diminish the accomplishments of the classic characters to achieve this end. That is what makes the ST far less original to me than any of the previous films made by Lucas.
Now, does this mean the ST cannot be entertaining, or competently made? Of course not! There’s much to enjoy, the story is compelling, the action is great, the special effects are great, the acting is generally good. IMO they are above average blockbusters. However, as sequels to the OT, they are a disappointment to me, and in the face of rethreading rebels vs Empire, a new hope vs fallen Jedi, and all the other elements I’ve mentioned, any argument that tries to pass off the ST as being on a similar level of creativity and originality as Lucas’ films simply falls flat on it’s face in my view.
Sorry, I’m going to have to drop this. My new rule is if I’ve said it before I won’t say it again. And there isn’t really anything I’d say in response to this that I haven’t already said a number of times (too many times) before.
Fine by me. I didn’t agree with what you said before, and if you’re just going to repeat those flawed arguments (imo), it’s a pretty pointless exercise.
I’ve largely been trying to abstain from posting in this thread lately, but I seriously don’t understand how Canto Bight remains so controversial. It seems crystal clear to me that the “pointlessness” of the sequence is the point. Finn and Rose go to Canto Bight so that they can pick up DJ…
I don’t think so. They go to Canto Bight to find “The” Master Codebreaker, the one guy that can help them according to Maz Kanata, but end up in jail for a parking violation (how exciting!), and by a spectacular coincidence run into another Codebreaker, who just then happens to decide to break out of jail.
…and have the plan that they made with Poe backfire spectacularly, providing the climax of the film (in classical “rising action-falling action” terms) and underlining the “failure is the best teacher” theme that’s central to the movie. It’s not that nothing of consequence happens, it’s two steps forward and three steps back, which is not at all the same thing.
Meh, that theme doesn’t really apply other than “do not trust some random shady guy you meet in jail to do the job of some other guy you were supposed to find”. The entire sequence leads into a fight between Finn and Phasma, that has not been set up at all, as Phasma hadn’t been part of the film up to that point, and the final scene with Rose and Finn on Crait isn’t very strong either IMO, as Rose stops Finn from sacrificing himself, which if Luke had not shown up (which Rose didn’t know about), would have certainly doomed the rebellion. In other words it requires Rose to know how the rest of the story will unfold to make any sense. So, in my view the Canto Bight sequence doesn’t really advance the plot, whilst also suffering from weak writing.
if the main focus of many discussions is, whether Luke was in or out of character in TLJ, the fans are spending too much time looking in the rear view mirror
WIWHS
The problem is, that the fans don’t really have to look in the rear view mirror, because what’s ahead is eerily similar to what’s behind them:
There were a ton of possibilities in coming up with completely new stories, characters, and visuals that did not involve recycling large parts the OT, while still incorporating Star Wars tropes like the Force, lightsabers, space battles, and what not. However, the current creators chose to take the save route, and rather than take the franchise in a new direction narratively and visually, gave us a loosely based remake of the OT, and worst of all, they chose to diminish the accomplishments of the classic characters to achieve this end. That is what makes the ST far less original than any of the previous films made by Lucas.
Well said. I agree that it’s a safe route, agree that it’s less original than Lucas’ films (but more enjoyable than the prequels), disagree that they diminish the OT. I’m not bothered by this safe route, in fact when I see something called “Star Wars #7” I want more of what came before, I expect something traditional.
I think the spinoffs are a good place for experimentation and we’ll be getting new stories from Rian Johnson and others as well. Perhaps the sequel trilogy could have been more different like the prequels or something in between but I’m happy with what we’ve gotten.
Well, I personally feel, if the main focus of many discussions is, whether Luke was in or out of character in TLJ, the movie is spending too much time looking in the rear view mirror, rather than setting a new course. It feels like the ST is reinventing the wheel, regressing the story to Empire vs rebels, and replacing Luke with Rey, as the future of the Jedi, and Ben Solo as the fallen Jedi student. It’s entertaining, and overall pretty well executed, but the ST could have been spent exploring new territory, expanding the narrative. I hope we’ll finally get a truly new and original story in RJ’s trilogy, or the films developed by Benioff and Weiss.
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Neither am I 😉.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, they argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent most of the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately stuck to Lucas’ old recipe, and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe in many respects, while altering a few key aspects of Lucas’ recipe for the worse, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
I think Lucas was more than simply “influenced.” I don’t have a problem with not calling the original Star Wars original because I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s still my favorite film after all.
I’d just argue that no SW film since the first has had the same “new and original recipe,” including ESB and ROTJ. Their “recipes” are firmly rooted in what was done in the previous film(s). Same with the ST, only there’ve been more previous films. Are the tropes that the ST is pulling from SW tropes? Absolutely, you’ve nailed that that’s how I see it. And again, to me that just makes sense, it seems a natural extension of the franchise at this point in time (it only seems fitting for these films to be influenced by what came before, just like Lucas, only now what’s come before are SW movies - films which have had an enormous impact on cinema in general and this genre of storytelling specifically).
I forgot to respond to this one. The difference between the ST, and the OT sequels, and the PT is, that Lucas’ sequels progressed the story in new directions. Sure all his films used Star Wars tropes, but the ST is unique in the sense, that it essentially retells the same story we’ve seen before, where a small rebel force fights a tyrannical regime led by an evil Force user. We have another Jedi student turning on his master, and being instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi Order. We have another young person living on a desert planet, who turns out to be the new hope, and then I’ve not even touched on recycling the concept of a super weapon, a walker assault on a white planet, a confrontation in a throne room, etc, etc.
Then there’s the fact that both the good guys and the bad guys look very much like they did in the OT, and use very similar equipment. Sure, some new characters and elements were added, but overall the basic story premise and the aesthetics are the same. A few changes in characters and structure are not going to change that. There were a ton of possibilities in coming up with completely new stories, characters, and visuals that did not involve recycling large parts the OT, while still incorporating Star Wars tropes like the Force, lightsabers, space battles, and what not. However, the current creators chose to take the safe route, and rather than take the franchise in a new direction narratively and visually, gave us a loosely based remake of the OT, and worst of all, they chose to diminish the accomplishments of the classic characters to achieve this end. That is what makes the ST far less original to me than any of the previous films made by Lucas.
Now, does this mean the ST cannot be entertaining, or competently made? Of course not! There’s much to enjoy, the story is compelling, the action is great, the special effects are great, the acting is generally good. IMO they are above average blockbusters. However, as sequels to the OT, they are a disappointment to me, and in the face of rethreading rebels vs Empire, a new hope vs fallen Jedi, and all the other elements I’ve mentioned, any argument that tries to pass off the ST as being on a similar level of creativity and originality as Lucas’ films simply falls flat on it’s face in my view.
No need to quibble over the precise level of distraction. Maybe less than Leia being blonde and more than her brunette hair being slightly darker. I still don’t see the validity of the reason for the aesthetic choice that is noticeable.
They probably figured most people wouldn’t care, which is almost certainly true.
As the creature designer said: “I remember saying to Rian [Johnson] that if we were going to do it, we couldn’t make him too much of a ghost because it would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real.”
Sounds like they thought people would care. If you mean they thought most people would like it or at least not be bothered by it, that is clear. If most people didn’t care, as you suggest, then it wasn’t a terribly successful choice. A lot of things in the movie are like that. This was quite a minor thing.
My post was in response to your question of why risk a noticeable/distracting change. Because most people wouldn’t care that it’s different.
You answer a question I’m not asking. I commented that I found it distracting but that wasn’t a question.
It seemed like you were wondering why they did it if it was distracting.
Why choose make the change in the first place? A lot of reasons that are more important than whether or not it’s distracting to an extremely small subset of the audience.
Well the creature designer says a ghostly Yoda “would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real.”
As I said, I don’t see the merit there. I guess you do?
Not a major thing but I thought the creative choice was an odd one and a more ghostly Yoda would not have taken joy away nor did a more solid Yoda add positively to the experience.
It’s the most substantial scene a force ghost has ever been in. It’s not just about the joy of seeing Yoda tangibly again. It’s about imbuing the character and the emotions of the scene with more tangibility. He still looks ghostly. Again, for an extremely small number of the audience, he’s not ghostly enough and that’s distracting. But for most of the audience, the thinking here is a more solid Yoda would add more weight to the scene. Makes perfect sense to me.
I think we agree for the first time. Hooray! In my view more solid ghost Yoda is not more distracting than ghost Obi-Wan walking through a forest avoiding trees and casually sitting down on a rock.
It’s pointless to the overall plot.
I don’t know if I would say that something is pointless just because it doesn’t affect the outcome of the plot. It did affect the outcome of the plot in this case, but even if it didn’t it wouldn’t be pointless.
You can compare it to the claim that Indiana Jones doesn’t affect the plot of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Even if he doesn’t, he’s not pointless.
You can compare it to almost any episode of a sitcom like The Simpsons where each episode ends with everything back to status quo, which means you can skip any episode and you won’t know that you missed anyhing. Still, the episodes aren’t pointless.
You can say that you didn’t like it, that’s fine, but that doesn’t make it pointless either.
I disagree. If you’re invested in the characters, yes then it’s not pointless. Most people were so invested in the character of Indiana Jones, they didn’t even notice he didn’t affect the plot. In this case I wasn’t invested in Rose’s and Finn’s mission, and since it didn’t really affect the plot other than to stop Finn from needlessly sacrificing himself (something that Rose didn’t know, meaning she would have doomed everyone, despite her save what you love speech), I watched a 30 min segment that ultimately didn’t really pay off for me, therefore it was a waste of time, and thus a pointless sequence.
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, theu argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately used Lucas’ recipe and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
Brilliant.
+1
-1, net result no impact.
Show me a star wars movie that hasn’t recycled star wars tropes. I don’t know why that is such a turn off.
Every Star Wars movie before the ST has provided plenty of new story threads, and new visuals. The ST is unique in the sense that it (IMO delibirately) recycles complete plot sequences, story structure and visuals. All sequels and prequels made by Lucas contained new stories. They were not loose remakes of the previous films. While for TLJ it’s less obvious than for TFA, there’s no denying TLJ’s story structure echos TESB’s, while it also incorporates entire story sequences from the OT, such as the battle of Hoth, albeit with a twist, and the ROTJ throne room sequence, again with a twist.
the ST has provided plenty of new story threads a new visuals too, or are claiming it didn’t?
Some new story threads yes, but compared to previous entries far too little IMO.
You try to cover way too much with your ‘but with a twist’ argument. Only those who want to agree with you accept that argument.
Not at all. Much of TLJ is based on the premise to rethread OT story threads, but to then “surprise” people with a twist. There are very few original story lines not in some way based on the OT. The most obvious original story line is the Canto Bight sequence, which is widely considered the movie’s weakest part, since it is pointless to the overall plot.
You can’t just dismiss the canto bight sequence as pointless… not sure i need to rethread that discussion though. Back out of this thread again for me…
It’s pointless to the overall plot. There’s some character development between Finn and Rose, but I didn’t think it was a very strong sequence, and it felt like filler to me. They needed Finn to have something to do, so he goes on this little mission, which allows RJ to introduce a new character, but the sequence sadly ends up going nowhere. They conveniently run into a second code breaker, who doesn’t look very trustworthy, and surprise, surprise he ends up betraying them. I guess Finn get’s his little moment with Phasma though, which sadly wasn’t properly set up. It’s not all bad, but it doesn’t improve the pacing of this 150 min movie in my view. Canto Bight looked nice though, so there’s that.
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, theu argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately used Lucas’ recipe and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
Brilliant.
+1
-1, net result no impact.
Show me a star wars movie that hasn’t recycled star wars tropes. I don’t know why that is such a turn off.
Every Star Wars movie before the ST has provided plenty of new story threads, and new visuals. The ST is unique in the sense that it (IMO delibirately) recycles complete plot sequences, story structure and visuals. All sequels and prequels made by Lucas contained new stories. They were not loose remakes of the previous films. While for TLJ it’s less obvious than for TFA, there’s no denying TLJ’s story structure echos TESB’s, while it also incorporates entire story sequences from the OT, such as the battle of Hoth, albeit with a twist, and the ROTJ throne room sequence, again with a twist.
the ST has provided plenty of new story threads a new visuals too, or are claiming it didn’t?
Some new story threads yes, but compared to previous entries far too little IMO.
You try to cover way too much with your ‘but with a twist’ argument. Only those who want to agree with you accept that argument.
Not at all. Much of TLJ is based on the premise to rethread OT story threads, but to then “surprise” people with a twist. There are very few original story lines not in some way based on the OT. The most obvious original story line is the Canto Bight sequence, which is widely considered the movie’s weakest part, since it is pointless to the overall plot.
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, theu argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately used Lucas’ recipe and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
Brilliant.
+1
-1, net result no impact.
Show me a star wars movie that hasn’t recycled star wars tropes. I don’t know why that is such a turn off.
Every Star Wars movie before the ST has provided plenty of new story threads, and new visuals. The ST is unique in the sense that it (IMO delibirately) recycles complete plot sequences, story structure and visuals. All sequels and prequels made by Lucas contained new stories. They were not loose remakes of the previous films. While for TLJ it’s less obvious than for TFA, there’s no denying TLJ’s story structure echos TESB’s, while it also incorporates entire story sequences from the OT, such as the battle of Hoth, albeit with a twist, and the ROTJ throne room sequence, again with a twist.
Anchorhead said:
That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZgI really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series.
It’s not, nor was I addressing that issue. I was responding specifically to Collipso saying “Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever”. In fact, it ripped off several films. For the record; I’m not bothered by that. Not now, not in 1977.
Neither am I 😉.
Regarding your claim that TFA recycled elements from the OT; I can’t imagine there is anyone on here who doesn’t see that to be the case. There are all sorts of parallels between the OT and the ST. The differences seem to be more about the level at which people are bothered by them.
I would be fine if that were the case, but I don’t believe it is. Some posters here conflate recycling Star Wars tropes with being influenced by other film makers, and works of fiction, thus arguing in a sense, that the current creators are more or less doing what Lucas did in 1977. Lucas’ Star Wars wasn’t original in their view, because he was obviously influenced by many sources while making the first film, and it’s sequels. The current creators are doing the same thing, they argue, but they just happened to be influenced by Star Wars movies. My argument is Lucas didn’t invent most of the ingredients, but he did invent a new and original recipe, and one that has resulted in some very tasty meals, while the current creators deliberately stuck to Lucas’ old recipe, and added a few twists to disguise the fact that they couldn’t come up with a new recipe. The meal might still be edible, but it’s just so similar to Lucas’ recipe in many respects, while altering a few key aspects of Lucas’ recipe for the worse, that I can’t shake the notion, that I’ve tasted far better versions of it in the past.
Collipso said:
Neither Star Wars nor Empire ripped off any movie whatsoever.That’s incorrect.
https://youtu.be/sx15aXjcDZg
I really don’t see how being influenced by a dozen old movies is in any way comparable to blantantly recycling story elements, structure, and visuals from the same movie series. The Last Jedi has a very similar structure to TESB in that it features rebels being chased from their base (albeit a lot slower), while a Jedi student seeks out a Jedi master, with the movie ending with the good guys narrowly escaping the bad guys. It even has a battle of Hoth, even though it has been moved to the end of the film, rather than the beginning, and some red salt to visually distuinguish it somewhat from TESB. It features the throne room sequence from ROTJ, which plays out in similar fashion right down to the bad guy’s betrayal of his master, with a battle with the Imperial Guards thrown in for good measure, and a twist where the bad guy stays bad.
Then there’s the ton of visual references. Here’s the ROTJ Death Star run, one of many examples (already referenced in TFA by the way):
I think the argument can be made, that the ST is a loosely based remake of the OT, and I think it would be considered as such, if it wasn’t marketed as a set of sequels featuring the classic characters. I think I would have liked the ST a lot more, if it had just been an honest reboot, rather than a loosely based remake thinly disguised as sequels.
Edit:
With my last statement, I think I may have actually discovered a way to enjoy the ST more on it’s own terms. I guess I should just consider it a loosely based remake, rather than true sequels to the OT. That actually makes Rey’s instant Force powers more pallatable, even if she’s still a rather bland character in my view, since a loosely based remake obviously doesn’t have to adhere to the in-universe rules.
Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”
You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.
You should see the letters column of magazines like Cinefantastique back in 1977. Lucas was accused of ripping off everything from Lensman to Dune.
Back then you really had to be ticked off to write a letter and lick a stamp. 😛
At least Disney made it easy on us by just ripping off Star Wars films 😛.
Sure the PT had designs that looked nothing like the OT. But that was a problem.
I disagree, that the PT designs were a problem. My issues with the PT is how these designs were used. The then state of the art CGI made these designs seem less tangible, and the PT world thus often seemed cartoony. However, aside from the fact that Lucas crammed too much stuff in a frame, I think the designs were one of the best parts of the PT.
Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”
You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M
For starters.
I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.
Weird, it’s almost like TFA and TLJ combined similar plot beats with original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.
More Tie fighters, X-wings, and Star Destroyers, not really original in my view. I guess we’ve never seen a black X-wing before. The ST represents a slightly more modern take on the OT, but very little in these films is not some variation of OT story threads, aesthetics, and designs. So, in my view the visual and auditory experience is anything but original.
Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”
You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.
Nope, not joking at all. Because that’s not really what we’re discussing here. There’s nothing story-wise (and a lot otherwise) in Star Wars that is original.
It is what we’re really discussing here. Star Wars provided a unique visual and auditory experience, as did it’s sequels and prequels to a somewhat lesser degree up till the ST. Borrowing elements from other works of fiction and combining them into something new and original is not the same as borrowing heavily from previous Star Wars films both visually and narratively to create another Star Wars film.
Sorry, that doesn’t really fly, Star Wars was never “known for its originality.”
You’ve got to be joking. Star Wars was the first movie of it’s kind. It doesn’t get much more original than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M
For starters.
I’m aware of the films that influenced Star Wars. However, what makes Star Wars original, is how it combines these elements with iconic original designs, sound, music, and characters to create a unique visual and auditory experience.
