DrDre

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Some intriguing thoughts and takes on TLJ in here (and about the current state of movie commentary)…

‘Star Wars Fans don’t deserve The Last Jedi’:-

https://medium.com/@thejohnprice/star-wars-fans-dont-deserve-the-last-jedi-5bd167dfc033

(The comments section is well worth a read after the article too)

This article makes me sad.

"“Star Wars Fans” are conditioned to be dumb consumers.”

A term which of course only applies to the critics of TLJ…

“The Star Wars fan community is largely defined by its immaturity and childish nature. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing — it’s fun to play with toys and get dressed up as your favorite characters and make pew pew sounds. But this is also key to understanding the backlash to The Last Jedi. The movie’s fundamental sin is that it’s a movie, not just a toy commercial.”

The detractors just wanted a toy commercial, while TLJ’s fans, sophisticated that they are, appreciate “real” movies. The comment section pretty much sums up the us versus them mentality that this article revels in. This is really…really… not good.

In the context of the whole article - including this towards the end…

‘*Note: Obviously #NotAllStarWarsFans. But in the digital fandom era there has emerged a nebulous hivemind that drives “the narrative.” Whether one guy was responsible for The Last Jedi’s bad RT score became irrelevant when the story took on a life of its own and spun into the popular consciousness. The fact remains: there is a lot of negative criticism of The Last Jedi in the toxic movie criticism culture as it exists on YouTube and various fan sites. And it is that toxicity that has not only missed the point of the movie, but is actively hurting the fan community dynamic.’

Not all…is pretty much how any argument is defended, that tries to paint a large portion of people with the same brush, and then adds a little side note to add a veneer of objectivity. The irony is, that this article is very much part of the same toxicity, that he claims the opposition is exposing the fan community to. It is the poster child of an attitude, that treat those with a different opinion with utter contempt. Just a few examples next to the aforementioned insults:

“Johnson assumed he would be speaking to an audience who had taken high school literature. Unfortunately for him, Star Wars fandom is stuck in preschool.”

“Star Wars fans” have fully realized exactly what they’ve been trained to be: a gaggle of screaming infants, throwing their toys against the wall and pressing replay on the Battle of Scarif.”

“If fans cannot grow beyond their infantile desires, they’re doomed to repeat the same stories over and over again, perched atop an empty throne-room where fear and hubris have overwhelmed hope and wisdom.”

“The greatest teacher, failure is. We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters. Until they recognize this and understand the lesson taught, Star Wars fans don’t deserve The Last Jedi.”

All this abuse for simply not liking the movie he likes. What an “expletive deleted”!

oojason said:

Some intriguing thoughts and takes on TLJ in here (and about the current state of movie commentary)…

‘Star Wars Fans don’t deserve The Last Jedi’:-

https://medium.com/@thejohnprice/star-wars-fans-dont-deserve-the-last-jedi-5bd167dfc033

(The comments section is well worth a read after the article too)

This article makes me sad.

"“Star Wars Fans” are conditioned to be dumb consumers.”

A term which of course only applies to the critics of TLJ…

“The Star Wars fan community is largely defined by its immaturity and childish nature. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing — it’s fun to play with toys and get dressed up as your favorite characters and make pew pew sounds. But this is also key to understanding the backlash to The Last Jedi. The movie’s fundamental sin is that it’s a movie, not just a toy commercial.”

The detractors just wanted a toy commercial, while TLJ’s fans, sophisticated that they are, appreciate “real” movies. The comment section pretty much sums up the us versus them mentality that this article revels in. This is really…really… not good.

Frank your Majesty said:

Frankly, I don’t care about “The Star Wars Universe”. Star Wars had inconsistencies between movies since Empire. What I do care about is a watching a good movie. And in the context of TFA, the quick gain in Force powers serves to advance the plot, instead of wasting time with some sort of training montage.
The same applies to Broom Boy. At my first viewing, I even missed that he used the Force to get the broom. Having him reach out and try several times would have put much more amphasis on it. The point of that last scene is to show that the Force is something natural. So yes, maybe the ways of the Force changed for the ST, but I don’t mind how they changed.

Well I do care about the change, because gaining Force powers and facing moral choices was indelibly linked in the OT, and the saga as a whole before the Disney acquisition. In fact it was the underlying theme of what becoming Jedi represented: making the right choices, dealing with temptation, learning that with great power comes great responsibility. So, what you describe as changes to advance the plot in order not to waste time, I decribe as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Consequently, for me Luke’s statement in TLJ, that he will not be the last Jedi, sounds extremely hollow, because becoming a Jedi used to mean a lot more than instantly gaining a bunch of super powers, and being a legend in the eyes of the galaxy.

Frank your Majesty said:

You’re overthinking this. The point of Broom Boy is to show how the Force is for everyone and that you don’t need to be mentioned in a prophecy or part of a certain family to use it. And in order to establish this in a quick and subtle way, they showed him grabbing the broom. Showing his enhanced reflexes would require a way longer scene, putting too much emphasis on him. And simply mentioning his abilities in dialogue would be lazy and too on the nose.

I don’t agree with this for two reasons:

1. We’ve seen Rey almost instantly gaining Force powers for two films, a clear indication that the rules with regards to Force powers have changed radically.

2. The scene with broom boy might have worked better, if he had been shown trying a Force pull alone in his room after the scene where the children reenact Luke trolling the FO. He could have been shown concentrating, failing, concentrating again, and then be stunned, that it actually worked. That could have been a short scene. However, in TLJ the boy does it so casually, it’s second nature to him. This doesn’t jive with what’s been established in the pre-Disney era.

corellian77 said:

NeverarGreat said:
The problem with that scene from a scientific perspective is that it’s strongly implied that a Hyperdrive is literally able to accelerate objects up to and past the speed of light, instead of opening a tunnel into another dimension.

DrDre said:
No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace.

I’ve only read the last few pages of the thread, so my apologies if this has been mentioned already, but on the topic of whether hyperspace involves simply travelling really quickly or entering another dimension, ANH would seem to establish that it’s the former, since one is still at risk of interacting with physical objects in the universe. As Han says, “Traveling through hyperspace ain’t like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that’d end your trip real quick, wouldn’t it?”

Actually it doesn’t necessarily establish that it’s the former, since Han’s remarks also apply, if you only consider the exit point of hyperspace travel in another dimension. Without precise calculations the exit point might be too close to or inside a star or supernova.

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.

Sir Ridley said:
3. If a projectile the size of a football would have the power of several nukes, wouldn’t the power still only be directed mostly forwards (and not in all directions like a bomb)? I assume a small projectile would only punch a hole straight through like a bullet rather than “nuking” the target. That wouldn’t necessarily work on something like the Death Star.

Only if the projectile would somehow magically be able to remain intact. However, given the amount of energy involved the projectile would disintegrate as would the Death Star at the point of impact, resulting in flying debris with a similar amount of energy as the projectile, which would wreak havoc on the station and anything in the vicinity.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.

Because lightspeed is depicted as massively more effective in TLJ than a normal ramming maneuver? Don’t forget that the debris from the Supremacy impact sliced up a bunch of Destroyers as well, something that is highly unlikely with a slower impact.

Based on the previous movies, an impact at sublight speeds might not do enough damage to destroy a single ship, let alone a dozen capital ships. In Rogue One, a transport impacts a Star Destroyer causing only minimal damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4GppY9Vh0k
…but in ESB, a somewhat larger asteroid traveling at a similar speed is able to take out a Star Destroyer’s bridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gh7AcuxfxI

A ship, even one as large as the Raddus, probably wouldn’t be enough to bisect the Supremacy without going at relativistic speeds. This goes against canon, where the ‘acceleration’ is thought to be an illusion.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudomotion/Legends

Is it possible that a ship entering Hyperspace first accelerates to ‘88MPH’ or something? Sure, anything’s possible in this made-up universe. But this just complicates a straightforward conceit of Space Opera storytelling by its military implications, and I think it’s frankly irresponsible to make this change to the rules of the universe for one (albeit cool) moment.

Hear, hear! Could not have stated it better myself.

SilverWook said:

Anyone for cake?

Wow, cool cake. I would eat that pork.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

Again it’s not about physical reality. It’s about internal logic. A concept can defy physical reality, but still be consistent within itself. Hyperspace kamikaze logically extends to hyperspace weapons, just like kamikaze with an airplane logically extends to projectile weapons like bullets, torpedo’s etc. Considering hyperspace weapons would trump any weapon in the GFFA except “Death Star tech” it doesn’t make sense, that we didn’t see such weapons used in the GFFA before, as hyperspace technology has been around for a very long time. TLJ thus breaks the GFFA’s internal logic.

sorry, but if we are going to continue to tell star wars stories, i sure hope they introduce new things like this. how you can claim this breaks internal logic is strange to me.

To me weaponizing hyperspace, a technology that has been available in the GFFA for decades, and is shown to be much more powerful than conventional GFFA weapons, but for some unexplained reason was never used on a large scale (or any scale for that matter), defies internal logic. Just like sacrificing yourself in a kamikaze attack whilst having droids available to do it for you, defies internal logic. Sorry, it’s just how my brain works.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

It clearly has the power of conventional GFFA weapons many times over. The Raddus cut through the Supremacy like butter, which is a ship the size of width of 20 km or 1/6 the size of the Death Star. So, the film itself depicts the energy released as equivalent to the power of many conventional weapons, which in themselves seem quite a bit more powerful than the weapons on planet earth. Hence, the only logical conclusion is, that a hyperspace collision in the GFFA as depicted by TLJ has the power of many nukes.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

Again it’s not about physical reality. It’s about internal logic. A concept can defy physical reality, but still be consistent within itself. Hyperspace kamikaze logically extends to hyperspace weapons, just like kamikaze with an airplane logically extends to projectile weapons like bullets, torpedo’s etc. Considering hyperspace weapons would trump any weapon in the GFFA except “Death Star tech” it doesn’t make sense, that we didn’t see such weapons used in the GFFA before, as hyperspace technology has been around for a very long time. TLJ thus breaks the GFFA’s internal logic.

ChainsawAsh said:

There’s a big, big difference between a “normal speed” and “relativistic speeds” when you approach (but don’t exceed) lightspeed, though. I wouldn’t consider .95c to be anything close to a “normal speed,” and that’s still only 95% the speed of light. In my mind, you have to hit a relativistic speed like .95c to punch a hole through realspace into hyperspace, which allows you to travel faster than c (aka lightspeed).

No, when something speeds up, its mass increases compared with its mass at rest. As the speed of an object increases and starts to reach appreciable fractions of the speed of light, the portion of energy going into making the object more massive gets bigger and bigger. This explains why nothing can travel faster than light (using normal motion) – at or near light speed, any extra energy you put into an object does not make it move faster but just increases its mass.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

SilverWook said:

Haven’t we been on this mobius strip before? 😛

Yeah, running in circles again. I guess you could view it as a sort of debating fitness program 😛.

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense, the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

SilverWook said:

But we ships in motion when they enter and exit Hyperspace. Enough time to ram something before actually entering Hyperspace.

Yes, but that would imply the ship would hit the enemy at “normal” speed, which would defy the logic of it actually going through the Supremacy like butter with a speed much greater than cruise speed as depicted in the film.

NeverarGreat said:

trimboNZ said:

ChainsawAsh said:

For what it’s worth, in the novelization, Poe sets a hyperspace entry point before Leia and Holdo retake command of the ship. That entry point is never changed, so when Holdo is alone on the ship waiting to die, she notices it - and because the ships have kept moving that whole time, the entry point is now behind the First Order fleet. That’s what gives her the idea to try it - because the ship will be accelerating to near lightspeed prior to hitting the hyperspace entry point.

So the “hyperspace ramming” actually occurs before the ship enters hyperspace, while the ship is accelerating to near-lightspeed in realspace.

It was basically her seeing where the entry point was plotted in relation to the position of the fleet, getting the idea, and going “Huh, wonder if this will work? Can’t hurt to try since I’m dead at this point anyway.”

Huh, that’s a fairly good in-universe explanation. So it’s not the hyperspace travel itself that makes the collision but the “flicker of pseudomotion”, as Zahn puts it.

EDIT: That could also go some way towards addressing my biggest problem with that scene - why no one thought to do that maneuver before losing 90% of their fleet. They couldn’t until the entry point was sufficiently far away behind the First Order.

Even Zahn states with the ‘pseudomotion’ that the ship isn’t really accelerating to the speed of light, otherwise it would be, you know, actual motion.

Hyperspace is a way of getting around the infinite energy required to accelerate a ship to the speed of light. Requiring ships to accelerate to light speed to enter it defeats the purpose.

I guess it’s a case of RJ wanting to have his cake and eat it. In order for the collision to work, there has to be a real motion of mass, but the entire concept of hyperspace is to bypass the obvious physical limitations of real motion, hence all the theories of “folding” space and such, to explain how it would be possible to travel great distances in an instant, without having to invoke real motion in the form of unphysically fast speeds in real space. Hence, the logical conclusion, that hyperspace is not a form real motion, and thus cannot be used as a motion driven weapon. As such the hyperspace collision, as depicted in TLJ, while looking great visually, doesn’t make much logical sense even when looking at it from an in-universe perspective.

TV’s Frink said:

Anyone for pizza?

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You lost me at “scientific perspective.”

It’s not even necessary to invoke science. Logic will do just fine. Fantasy movies do not have to adhere to science, but they have to make logical sense in-universe.

True, that’s exactly why I’m okay with it.

Funny, it’s why I’m not. It’s not the worst of TLJ’s offenses in my view, and it’s a stunning visual moment in the film, but it sadly fits with what I percieve to be RJ’s general disregard for the in-universe rules established by Lucas over the last four decades.

I’m not at which point in the previous six Lucas films they establish that this isn’t possible, but whatever.

I think NeverarGreat made very clear, why it is somewhat of an issue for some of us, but since you stopped reading after the “scientific perspective” part, you probably missed the point he was making, but whateverrrrrr…

Having read it now, I don’t think that’s really the case,

Fine, I can respect that.

but whatever.

(also, when I say “whatever,” I don’t say it in that valley girl way, it’s basically just a shortening of “whatever you say, if that’s how you want to view it,” but whatever)

Ah oke, I misunderstood. My apologies.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You lost me at “scientific perspective.”

It’s not even necessary to invoke science. Logic will do just fine. Fantasy movies do not have to adhere to science, but they have to make logical sense in-universe.

True, that’s exactly why I’m okay with it.

Funny, it’s why I’m not. It’s not the worst of TLJ’s offenses in my view, and it’s a stunning visual moment in the film, but it sadly fits with what I percieve to be RJ’s general disregard for the in-universe rules established by Lucas over the last four decades.

I’m not at which point in the previous six Lucas films they establish that this isn’t possible, but whatever.

I think NeverarGreat made very clear, why it is somewhat of an issue for some of us, but since you stopped reading after the “scientific perspective” part, you probably missed the point he was making, but…

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You lost me at “scientific perspective.”

It’s not even necessary to invoke science. Logic will do just fine. Fantasy movies do not have to adhere to science, but they have to make logical sense in-universe.

True, that’s exactly why I’m okay with it.

Funny, it’s why I’m not. It’s not the worst of TLJ’s offenses in my view, and it’s a stunning visual moment in the film, but it sadly fits with what I percieve to be RJ’s general disregard for the in-universe rules established by Lucas over the last four decades.