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DrDre

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16-Mar-2015
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14-Dec-2018
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Post
#1240524
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

the mcu is really fan service focused, while star wars is not.

just compare the last two huge MCU and SW installments: Infinity War and The Last Jedi. one is a fan service fest, the other is an indie director’s vision of the continuation of a story not really caring about what the fans think. i actually admire the latter attitude a lot more, even if i dislike TLJ and really enjoy Infinity War. but that IW was much better received by fans and general audience alike is an undisputable fact, so SW does probably have something to learn from the MCU in regards to audience reaction.

I don’t think IW was a fan service fest. The heroes lost, and 50% of them died. It featured a complex villain with moral ambiguity.

After 18 movies with next to zero deaths and very few complex villains, I’d say those were the two things most fans were clamoring for. I don’t want to go too far off topic, but I thought both of those elements were executed poorly and felt very fan servicey to me.

Which is fine of course, but unlike TLJ IW did not divide its fan base. I agree the MCU is too heavy on the fan service, but so is Star Wars, and most franchises these days.

Post
#1240520
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis. Their last movie bombed. The Resistance trailer has recieved a mostly negative response.

Post
#1240519
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

Collipso said:

the mcu is really fan service focused, while star wars is not.

just compare the last two huge MCU and SW installments: Infinity War and The Last Jedi. one is a fan service fest, the other is an indie director’s vision of the continuation of a story not really caring about what the fans think. i actually admire the latter attitude a lot more, even if i dislike TLJ and really enjoy Infinity War. but that IW was much better received by fans and general audience alike is an undisputable fact, so SW does probably have something to learn from the MCU in regards to audience reaction.

I don’t think IW was a fan service fest. The heroes lost, and 50% of them died. It featured a complex villain with moral ambiguity. I think the MCU moved beyond being just fan service a while ago. The last few entries have been extremely well recieved by fans and critics alike. It’s not high brow stuff, but let’s face it, neither is Star Wars.

Post
#1240515
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

It’s not just about disliking a movie anymore, it’s about being accused of sexism, racism, and toxicity. It’s about being ostracized for not liking a movie.

That stuff goes entirely both ways and has nothing to do with the films themselves.

I disagree. People will be people. It’s the movies themselves that are the catalysts for this sort of behaviour, as it was in the days of the SE and the PT. Neither Lucas nor the current creators had/have a good handle on the fanbase and their expectations. That worries me.

Post
#1240512
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the past and current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what Disney was going for.

There are millions of reasons.

  • The MCU has a back-history of mythology that they’re pulling from. With each new Star Wars film they reveal something new about the universe, and for some fans those things can contradict their understanding of the universe (whether justified or not).
  • The MCU is a by nature a collection of divergent styles. No one cares if Guardians feels different than Captain America, because they’re used to it.
  • When divisive things happen in the MCU (like say Iron Man 3), fans know that it will have basically zero impact on the rest of the movies.
  • Because the film series is so recent, and has been made at such a steady clip, there has been extremely little room for the hardcore nerds to build up and speculate what the universe means to them and where they think things and characters should go, or what the backstory should look like. I would wager a significant reason why the PT and ST are so divisive is both trilogies have had decades worth of pent up hype and speculation. If Marvel stopped making movies in 2017 and waited until 2030 to release Infinity War, even if it was the exact same movie, I’d put money on a significant portion of the audience absolutely hating it.
  • Ultimately, people are much more invested in Star Wars than the MCU.

Basically, with Star Wars, I legitimately think you’re asking for something impossible. There is no scenario where Disney made Star Wars movies that weren’t divisive. Even if they played things conservatively and middle of the road, like Marvel, there’s going to be people mad about (I mean look at Solo). You’re just frustrated because you ended up in the mad group for the ST. But look on the bright side, you liked the PT a lot. So take what you like and be happy about it. Don’t fret over the rest.

I actually didn’t like the PT a lot, but I appreciate it on a conceptual level. The PT movies range from passable to pretty good in my view, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of any of them.

The point is not whether I personally like or dislike the ST. The point is how the current movies and its creators have approached the existing canon and its fanbase. There will allways be detractors, but when a movie like TLJ is so divisive, and causes such an emotional response, I think there’s reason for concern.

People like to point to the extremists, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. There are huge numbers of reasonable fans who have qualms about the current state of the franchise, who feel they are between a rock and a hard place.

I don’t know what to tell you. They made a movie that they thought was a good continuation and expansion of the series and the canon. For a lot of people it was. I’m absolutely certain they were genuinely shocked by the extent of the reaction (obviously they knew some would hate it). I know I was. When I saw the movie for the first time and saw the audience’s reaction, I thought it was going to be a massive hit with the fanbase and go over a lot better than either TFA or the prequels (to me, it felt like TLJ was made for Star Wars fans first, while TFA felt like it was made for general audiences first, and the prequels for Lucas first - FYI I don’t think any of those are bad things). Little did I know how some others would react, and how extremely.

Just goes to show in my mind that we’ve gotten to a point with this series where people’s emotions are so charged, and in some ways so disparate, that it’s impossible to completely reconcile them all. In my mind the only thing close to a solution for Disney/LFL is to move entirely beyond the existing characters, so at least there will be one less factor that comes with a lot of emotional baggage for fans.

I’ll agree with you on that.

Post
#1240505
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the past and current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what Disney was going for.

There are millions of reasons.

  • The MCU has a back-history of mythology that they’re pulling from. With each new Star Wars film they reveal something new about the universe, and for some fans those things can contradict their understanding of the universe (whether justified or not).
  • The MCU is a by nature a collection of divergent styles. No one cares if Guardians feels different than Captain America, because they’re used to it.
  • When divisive things happen in the MCU (like say Iron Man 3), fans know that it will have basically zero impact on the rest of the movies.
  • Because the film series is so recent, and has been made at such a steady clip, there has been extremely little room for the hardcore nerds to build up and speculate what the universe means to them and where they think things and characters should go, or what the backstory should look like. I would wager a significant reason why the PT and ST are so divisive is both trilogies have had decades worth of pent up hype and speculation. If Marvel stopped making movies in 2017 and waited until 2030 to release Infinity War, even if it was the exact same movie, I’d put money on a significant portion of the audience absolutely hating it.
  • Ultimately, people are much more invested in Star Wars than the MCU.

Basically, with Star Wars, I legitimately think you’re asking for something impossible. There is no scenario where Disney made Star Wars movies that weren’t divisive. Even if they played things conservatively and middle of the road, like Marvel, there’s going to be people mad about (I mean look at Solo). You’re just frustrated because you ended up in the mad group for the ST. But look on the bright side, you liked the PT a lot. So take what you like and be happy about it. Don’t fret over the rest.

I actually didn’t like the PT a lot, but I appreciate it on a conceptual level. The PT movies range from passable to pretty good in my view, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of any of them.

The point is not whether I personally like or dislike the ST. The point is how the current movies and its creators have approached the existing canon and its fanbase. There will allways be detractors, but when a movie like TLJ is so divisive, and causes such an emotional response, I think there’s reason for concern.

People like to point to the extremists, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. There are huge numbers of reasonable fans who have qualms about the current state of the franchise, who feel they are between a rock and a hard place. It’s not just about disliking a movie anymore, it’s about being accused of sexism, racism, and toxicity. It’s about being ostracized for not liking a movie.

Post
#1240496
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

dahmage said:

Do people really care about the MCU that much though? As far as I can tell it is just a fun ride for the vast majority. :shrug:

I am sure it’s least 50% (probably 80%) of anything called fan anger is something for those fans to work out. Not something any director did to them.

Yes, the MCU has a large and devoted fanbase, including comic book fans who are devoted to seeing their favourite comic book characters done justice.

Star Wars is unique in the way it has brought out the worst in its fanbase, and I’m not just talking about the haters, and extremists.

Post
#1240493
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars has been dividing fans since Empire. Considering the passion fans hold for this series, and its nature as an ever expanding and evolving mythology, each new installment is bound to cause a considerable stir no matter what. Everyone would be a lot happier if they stopped getting so angry about the things they didn’t like and just ignored them, and instead focused on the things they did like. No need whatsoever to stress about things “not fitting canon” that way.

The MCU seems to be doing just fine with creating a universe without all animosity and hate that the Star Wars franchise has become known for these days. So, the current creators must be doing something wrong, since this state of affairs surely isn’t what they signed up for.

Post
#1240490
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

Mocata said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

The problem of this divisive approach is that it has resulted in two trilogies that have left a bad taste in a large subsection of the fanbase. It seems with each trilogy the fanbase is shattered further rather than united under one unifying vision that is satisfying to OT, PT, and ST fans alike, whilst bringing new fans into the fold. While I’m not a fan of the ST, I’m actually more concerned with LFM’s inability to create such a vision, and not to greatly piss off some significant portion of the fanbase. The disdain expressed by the different subsections of the fanbase towards each other seen in articles, on youtube, and in this thread, whether it be OT fans, PT fans, or ST fans is a testament to that failure.

Sure some people don’t like what was done so far in the new trilogy. But to say that these films are the problem and not the prequels seems more than a little odd. Even if you don’t enjoy them they at least try and fit the “SW Feel”. Disney is all about brand integrity after all. The PT instead is like a weird boring slog where everyone is playing a creepy monotone zombie in front of a bad green screen. The only thing those fit with tonally is the Luke/Leia Luke/Ben scenes from act three of ROTJ where George was clearly pulling the strings. The exact things every hates about ROTJ but magnified into a whole new trilogy.

I did not say that, as I clearly referred to both the PT and the ST. However, since the PT itself is over a decade old it’s water under the bridge, and I’m more concerned with what the current creators have done and can do to unite the fanbase. So far they’ve not been doing a very good job, as there appears to be more animosity within the fanbase than there ever was before.

Post
#1240460
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

BiggsFan44 said:

dahmage said:
you are the first person that I’ve heard of describing this as a ‘tonal clash’.

It’s a scene right out of a parody.
The laser that’s going to kill “what we love” fires in center frame right as they lean in for the kiss after Rose’s “saving what we love” speech.

I have never EVER seen a more utterly insane development in the SW community than people who think that the ST isn’t a fucking joke compared even to the PT, let alone the OT.

It’s like the people who bashed the PT for years just shut down when movies worse than the PT come out.
Maybe because they know that they’re the reason why these new movies are cinematic abortions.

I think you should realize, that with these kinds of flaming posts, you probably won’t be here for long. It’s perfectly fine to discuss in what way the ST, PT or any of the films " disrespect" canon, but be prepared to accept that others may have a different point of view. What’s good to you may be bad to someone else or vice versa.

Post
#1240429
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

BiggsFan44 said:

dahmage said:

BiggsFan44 said:

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

Since you brought it up, I’d say that “debacle” is a much more accurate description of the ST (so far) than the PT.
It doesn’t get more cringeworthy than than the unfortunate juxtaposition of Rose’s “saving what we love” speech with the laser blasting “what they love” in center frame as they lean in for the kiss.

And people thought “I don’t like sand” was bad. Yeesh.

Stop, my sides are hurting.

Do you honestly disagree?

Yes, he honestly has a different opinion from you. You might try to respect him for that fact, rather than act like a ****.

Post
#1240424
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

Mocata said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Okay, this is where I stop, because all of this is 100% “I don’t like the ST so I’m going to rail against it and find every avenue I can to attack it” and not a discussion of keeping canonical cohesion of a saga across multiple decades and filmmakers. Which is the discussion I was hoping to find when I opened this thread.

I’m amazed this thread is still going, but thanks for the break down of what is really going on in all of these monolithic quote trees. Not liking the ST is fine. But claiming the real reason they don’t work is because they don’t follow the prequels enough is just bonkers. Nobody was going to pay however many millions to invite comparisons to that debacle. Things that leave a bad taste need a strong pallet cleanser after all.

The problem of this divisive approach is that it has resulted in two trilogies that have left a bad taste in a large subsection of the fanbase. It seems with each trilogy the fanbase is shattered further rather than united under one unifying vision that is satisfying to OT, PT, and ST fans alike, whilst bringing new fans into the fold. While I’m not a fan of the ST, I’m actually more concerned with LFM’s inability to create such a vision, and not to greatly piss off some significant portion of the fanbase. The disdain expressed by the different subsections of the fanbase towards each other seen in articles, on youtube, and in this thread, whether it be OT fans, PT fans, or ST fans is a testament to that failure.

Post
#1239812
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Here goes:

The Empire Strikes Back (9.5/10)
Star Wars (9/10)
Return Of The Jedi (8/10)
Revenge of the Sith (7/10)
Rogue One (7/10)
The Phantom Menace (6.5/10)
Attack of the Clones (6/10)
The Force Awakens (6/10)
The Last Jedi (5/10)

Oh yeah, really…

The Holiday Special not good enough to make it in the list, eh? 😉
 

LOL! I would classify the Holiday Special as a tv show, not a Star Wars film. 😉

Post
#1237312
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

Well to me it comes across as trickery, a cheat that gives the audience some thrills at the expense of building a real story that stands own its own. The movie essentially keeps telling you not to trust the story trajectory, because the author might yank the steering wheel at any moment, which in my view prevents immersion.

To quote Plinkett:

“The question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in a completely new direction?”

Once you take away the surprises and the thrills, TLJ exposes the current generation’s Star Wars is self-referential to a fault, and extremely limited in its scope. RJ took the OT’s setups, and believed you can invent a new joke by just adding a new punchline.

Post
#1237117
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

I don’t agree. While I will concede the execution at times leaves something to desire, to me it’s pretty clear after he attacks Mace he decides to serve Darth Sidious and from that point on is committed to that choice, and get’s more consumed with the dark side as time progresses. While the entire sequence felt somewhat rushed to me, in a time where important character development is explained through a tiny flashback, it seems quite extensive by comparison. I will admit that I personally would have preferred an Anakin, that rationally chooses the quick and easy path, rather than coming across as kind of gullible, and crazed, but that’s the story Lucas wanted to tell, and aside from some weak acting and dialogue here and there that story works for me mostly.

Post
#1236378
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

To me anyone is innocent until proven guilty, and pointing to some circumstantial evidence and fitting it into a narrative whilst ignoring evidence supporting the opposite viewpoint simply doesn’t cut it. The fact is, it cannot be denied, it is possible, that these similarities are simply coincidental. In such circumstances the only sensible thing is to consider the people accused of committing this “crime”, and to see if the accusations fit a historic pattern. Given Lucas’ and his collaborators historic record and their statements on this matter, I think it is obvious, that it does not. Additionally one should consider the context in which these alleged racial stereotypes are placed. Historically racial stereotypes served a purpose, and were used to promote distorted images of groups of people, or reflected certain biases and prejudices that people had about these groups of people. So, for the characters in Lucas’ films to fit the definition of racial stereotype it is not enough to point to some similarities, it should also be obvious that Lucas intended to promote distorted images of blacks, Asians, and Jews, or that these characters reflect biases and or prejudices, he has towards these people. Again there’s simply no evidence for this, in fact quite the opposite. Lucas is known for his left-wing politics, and is married to black woman. His best friend Steven Spielberg is Jewish. He created Star Wars in part as an analogy for the evils of the Vietnam war. It doesn’t seem logical for a person of his background and beliefs to perpetuate racial stereotypes about blacks, Asians, and Jews. As such, I can only conclude that those eager to convict Lucas are the ones who are biased by their dislike of Lucas’ new brand of Star Wars to the point, that they ignore any evidence that points to a different conclusion.

Post
#1236318
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

Post
#1236233
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Post
#1236222
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true. It’s cherry picking. You ignore the alien on the left, and focus on the one on the right, because you believe, he fits the narrative, even though the visual similarity is tenuous at best.

Post
#1236218
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

Post
#1236215
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:
And Jar Jar’s character was overtly racist

I think this statement has no real basis in reality to be honest, and says more about the US’s historic relationship with racial stereotypes and racial issues in general then what’s actually in the movie. For the character to be overtly racist one must first find sufficient evidence for either racist intentions, or clear evidence of the character being a racial stereotype, neither of which is the case in my view. I personally fail to see how an orange amphibian with floppy ears is supposed to be representative of a person of color outside of the fact that the character was portrayed by a black man.

For what it’s worth, my friends and I all agreed Jar Jar acted, walked and talked with the racial stereotypes of a black man. From the strutting type gait, the “mesa sorry” type language etc. It was painfully obvious to me and many others. It isn’t one of those things that you have to look at “just right” to see it either.

Well, I’m a black man, and I didn’t percieve Jar Jar as reflecting on me as a person, or on my racial background. I just saw a clumpsy floppy eared orange character meant to entertain kids portrayed by a black man who gave the character a somwhat Caribbean inflection in his speech. However, I’m absolutely convinced that the character in no way was intended to ridicule or attack people of color, and so I can only view such a point of view as stemming from a sort of overcompensation in response to racial stereotyping that happened in the past. To quote another user on another forum:

If I’m a black man and another black man says “Hey, that guy is tall, clumsy , stupid and speaks funny, that’s supposed to be us.”, I would say “it may be you sir, but that does not represent me.”

So, in my view if you see a racial stereotype in Jar Jar Binks, it’s because you are conditioned to see a racial stereotype, not because Lucas put it there to ridicule another race of people.

I agree that Lucas did not intend to ridicule anyone…that being said, Jar Jar is a stereotypical African American in many ways. They are exaggerated in the manner Dom mentioned of course but that is what makes it glaringly obvious. The asian and Jewish stereotypes are quite obvious as well.

Interesting bit I found whilst typing this out for you.

https://davechen.net/2012/02/racism-and-ethnic-stereotypes-in-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/

"Bruce Gottlieb over at Slate wrote up a pretty good summary of Lucas’s racial offenses when Phantom Menace was first released:

Crafty Japanese trade villains aren’t the only heavy-handed ethnic stereotype in The Phantom Menace. As the story continues, the heroes slip past the evil Japanese to a nearby planet. There, they attempt to repair their broken spaceship but are stymied by the hook-nosed owner of the local parts shop–Watto–who also happens to have a thick Yiddish accent! (To hear an example, click “Great.”) Psychological manipulations that work on almost everyone fail with Watto–“Mind ticks don’ta work on me … only money! No,” he cries–and the heroes get what they want only through the bravery of a gifted slave boy (Anakin Skywalker). At the end of the desert planet sequence, Anakin is emancipated but separated from his mother, who still belongs to Watto. Even in a galaxy far away, the Jews are apparently behind the slave trade.

And then there’s Jar Jar Binks, the childlike sidekick with the unmistakably West Indian accent and enormous buttocks. Jar Jar is likable, easygoing, and dumb as dirt–always being scolded or saved from death by the Jedi knights. His stupidity and cowardice are running jokes throughout the film. And his people, the Gungan, are a brave but primitive tribe who throw spears and rocks at the oncoming army in the climactic battle sequence. Only Hispanics escape Lucas’ caricature, which is actually something of a mixed blessing since Hispanics often rightly complain that they are ignored in the national race debate."

Well to me these comparisons are like people that see dogs in a cloud. It says more about people claiming there’s a stereotype than what’s actually being conveyed by the movie. The above narrative is not Lucas’ narrative. It is Bruce Gottlieb’s. It’s like those videos that through clever editing make it seem Frodo and Sam in LOTR, or Rocky and Apollo in Rocky 3 are gay lovers. You take a flying blue alien who’s driven by money with a slurf, you claim the slurf is a hook nose, the rough voice is yiddish somehow, and voilá you just invented a Jewish stereotype.

Post
#1236203
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

It’s interesting that you criticize Qui-Gon’s death and bearing on the story, when Lucas ultimately managed to better flesh out Qui-Gon’s character, motivations, and relationships with Obi-Wan, and Anakin over the course of a single movie than Snoke was developed over the course of two movies in the ST. I would say Snoke is to Ben Solo what Qui-Gon is to Obi-Wan and to a lesser degree Anakin, only Snoke has far less scenes, and Snoke and Ben Solo’s relationship is far less developed obscuring Ben Solo’s character motivations.

Let’s try not to get too far off topic with the ST talk, especially when the comparison is so labored and irrelevant to the discussion.

The problem is Qui-Gon is basically the closest thing to a main character in TPM, and then he’s gone. There are two things that went wrong - he should have been far more in the background in a mentor role, and his influence on Obi-wan and Anakin should have been more clearly conveyed in the other films (which is to say more than not at all, which is the case).

Anyway, I’m going to give this as half a point in favor of ROTS.

I used the example to point out a possible double standard, but I might have used ANH as an example as well. Tarkin serves as one of the main antagonists in that film, and after ANH he’s gone, never to be mentioned again.

My criticism of Qui-Gon has nothing to do with him dying. In fact, that he dies in TPM is one of the few things I would not change about him.

However, Tarkin serves a purpose beyond his apparent role as the villain. Firstly, ANH is far more political than TESB and ROTJ. For one the political situation is mentioned or discussed on numerous occasions, between Leia and Vader early on, in the Death Star conference room, and again between Tarkin and Leia before the destruction of Alderaan. The more personal story of Luke, Obi-Wan, and Vader is very much in the background, and used as a McGuffin to get Luke to join the fight against the Empire.

Saying ANH has more politics than TESB and ROTJ doesn’t say much, because those two films have practically zero politics. And I’m not saying these films shouldn’t have galactic politics in them, they just shouldn’t be at the forefront. If you think Tarkin’s politicking is the focus of ANH while Luke’s story is in the background, you need to watch that film again. The Death Star scenes are asides to Luke’s story, with the galactic politics featured therein minimal (and succinctly presented in direct relation to the stakes of the story at hand), and nothing near the extent of what is portrayed in the PT.

Qui-Gon’s character serves a number of purposes. For one he is the mirror that exposes the Jedi order’s dogmatism, a dogmatism that would continue to plague them in subsequent films. Secondly, without Qui-Gon’s involvement Anakin would never have been trained. Qui-Gon’s actions in the story directly impact the further development of the main characters, and the development and outcome of Lucas’ six part story. Thirdly, Qui-Gon’s death is a stark reminder to the Jedi order that the Sith are still at large and as dangerous as ever.

When did I ever say Qui-Gon was pointless? The problem is TPM puts too much focus on the one off character, while Obi-wan stands around in the background, and Anakin isn’t introduced until halfway through the film.

The death of a main character reminds us of the stakes,

You’re suggesting that Lucas made Qui-Gon a main character, so that his death could raise the stakes more significantly? The stakes in a series of films where we already know the outcome? Not to mention, the threat that kills him is also dispatched immediately thereafter.

The main purpose of killing the mentor is not to simply raise the stakes. It is to affect the protagonist’s journey, and leave them to fend for themselves. Unfortunately, though Lucas obviously had it in mind, the impact of Qui-Gon’s death is not touched upon in a meaningful way in the later films.

and also conveys the idea that Anakin has lost a father figure who might have steered him on the path of the righteous. That void is filled by Palpatine who would take over the role of father figure in subsequent films to the detriment of the entire galaxy.

Except we only see Palpatine talk to Anakin once in AOTC, while in the same film he says that Obi-wan is like a father to him… but then in ROTS they’re “brothers”… The truth is Lucas had an interesting idea with the dueling father figures, but completely fucked it up in terms of what actually made it on screen (where Anakin and Obi-wan bicker half the time, and we only know Anakin and Palpatine are friends because he tells us such, not because we actually see it). Good ideas that are practically nonexistent in the finished product due to poor execution - the prequels in a nutshell.

DrDre said:

So, in my view if you see a racial stereotype in Jar Jar Binks, it’s because you are conditioned to see a racial stereotype, not because Lucas put it there to ridicule another race of people.

That’s pretty obviously not how recognizing stereotypes actually works (and is kind of insulting). I don’t think there are many who think Lucas consciously included characters that resemble racist caricatures in his films (and, indeed, one should note that much of Jar Jar is Ahmed Best’s creation).

Personally I had no idea of the resemblance when I first saw the film, because I was a kid. But the similarities are obviously there when you compare Jar Jar to historical caricatures such as Stepin Fetchit and the like. I don’t think it’s enough of a similarity to be a significant criticism of the film (and hell if that film’s critics need anything more to criticize), but it’s disingenuous to say there’s no comparison to be made and then to also claim stereotyping of those making the comparison.

I’m not saying no comparison can be made, I’m saying how one judges such a comparison depends heavily on conditioning, and in my view the US’s history with racial issues has conditioned many people to be hyper sensitive to any percieved racial stereotyping. I certainly don’t remember it being a point of discussion in my country.

Post
#1236170
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:
And Jar Jar’s character was overtly racist

I think this statement has no real basis in reality to be honest, and says more about the US’s historic relationship with racial stereotypes and racial issues in general then what’s actually in the movie. For the character to be overtly racist one must first find sufficient evidence for either racist intentions, or clear evidence of the character being a racial stereotype, neither of which is the case in my view. I personally fail to see how an orange amphibian with floppy ears is supposed to be representative of a person of color outside of the fact that the character was portrayed by a black man.

For what it’s worth, my friends and I all agreed Jar Jar acted, walked and talked with the racial stereotypes of a black man. From the strutting type gait, the “mesa sorry” type language etc. It was painfully obvious to me and many others. It isn’t one of those things that you have to look at “just right” to see it either.

Well, I’m a black man, and I didn’t percieve Jar Jar as reflecting on me as a person, or on my racial background. I just saw a clumpsy floppy eared orange character meant to entertain kids portrayed by a black man who gave the character a somwhat Caribbean inflection in his speech. However, I’m absolutely convinced that the character in no way was intended to ridicule or attack people of color, and so I can only view such a point of view as stemming from a sort of overcompensation in response to racial stereotyping that happened in the past. To quote another user on another forum:

If I’m a black man and another black man says “Hey, that guy is tall, clumsy , stupid and speaks funny, that’s supposed to be us.”, I would say “it may be you sir, but that does not represent me.”

So, in my view if you see a racial stereotype in Jar Jar Binks, it’s because you are conditioned to see a racial stereotype, not because Lucas put it there to ridicule another race of people.