DrDre

Fullmetaled said:

Wow this is incredible this looks like what the 4k blu rays could have looked like and it’s sad again a fan does what studio should have and could have done. does this fanfix keep detail like the top of Gandalf’s staff and make the scene on the bridge look proper again?

The staff scene is in TROTK, but yes that detail should be preserved, and even enhanced when it will be released.

The official 4K release of TTT has some of the worst DNR in the trilogy. Here’s an example:

Here’s how the same shot looks for 4K Dremastered, where the colors have been matched to the official release for this comparison:

The color grading of the official 4K release is also very different from the original. Here’s the same shot of 4K Dremastered with the original colors:

This thread is dedicated to a 4K upscale and AI remastering of the 2009 theatrical bluray release of TTT. While I generally like the new HDR color grade of the official 4K release, the excessive DNR has scrubbed away a lot of detail. So, this here is my attempt at creating a 4K version of TTT (and the other two films) that does have the clarity, detail and fine layer of grain we come to expect from a 4K release. I chose to use the 2009 bluray, because it has the theatrical color grade, and it doesn’t suffer from black crush like the extended bluray release.

Also available: The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring - 4K-Dremastered & The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the Kings - 4K-Dremastered

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Fellowship-of-the-Ring-4K-Dremastered-Released/id/99018#1504015

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Return-of-the-King-4K-Dremastered-Released/id/100445

Here are a number of screencaps from TTT 4K Dremastered:

This thread is dedicated to a 4K upscale and AI remastering of the 2009 theatrical bluray release of FOTR. While I generally like the new HDR color grade of the official 4K release, the excessive DNR has scrubbed away a lot of detail. So, this here is my attempt at creating a 4K version of FOTR (and the other two films) that does have the clarity, detail and fine layer of grain we come to expect from a 4K release. I chose to use the 2009 bluray, because it has the theatrical color grade, and it doesn’t suffer from black crush like the extended bluray release.

Also available: The Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers - 4K-Dremastered & The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the Kings - 4K-Dremastered

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Two-Towers-4K-Dremastered-Released/id/99019

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Return-of-the-King-4K-Dremastered-Released/id/100445

Here are a number of screencaps from FOTR 4K Dremastered:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Anchorhead said:

I’ve seen the 1979 original - several times in 79 in the theater and countless times in the decades since. I ubernerded it that year. Books, articles, etc. I still vividly remember my VHS of it just a few years later. I’ve listened to the soundtrack regularly since 79. Honestly, almost weekly, even now.
Because the original is a permanent Top Ten for me, there was never any chance I’d bother with a sequel. It’s a complete and finished story (for me).

You…seriously… have never watched The Empire Strikes Back this entire last 40 years???

He’s talking about never having watched Aliens after seeing Alien.

thorr said:

The way I see it, he is simply using any technique he can to get the best picture quality out of each frame/scene without replacing the scene, like the special editions did. His version should be a frame for frame match to the original.

Sure, but once you start using techniques with the aim to enhance the image quality beyond what was possible in 1977, it no longer is the original, but a special edition.

BedeHistory731 said:

DrDre said:

The 2004 release was based of a 2K scan of the negative, while the 2019 release is based on a 4K scan done in 2012.

I always thought that the 2004/2011 “HD Branch” was a 1080p scan, as horrifying as that may sound.

The final master was 1080p, but the scan itself was 2K according to someone who worked on it.

I suppose after two years of silence, we can safely assume Legacy will not be seeing a release through the official channels in the foreseeable future. It’s a pity we never got to see anything beyond individual shots. The last update from the actual restoration itself stems from 2015, I believe. It would have been neat to at least get some kind of trailer with sound, such that we could get a sense of how such a release would look with a proper color grading. A comparison with the official 4K restoration released in 2019 would also be very interesting, since that restoration is obviously much more detailed than the much maligned 1080p 2004 master. Ah, well. Que sera sera.

I have to admit, I’m intrigued by this video, that Mike has on his vimeo channel:

https://vimeo.com/120218626

It’s the so called worst shot in the film. While all the techniques discussed are really interesting, I’m having difficulty viewing this particular shot as restored. In my view a restoration in the truest sense of the word would get the highest quality source possible, preferably the original negative or separation masters, repair any damage, remove dirt that was not in the original shot and present the shot as is, warts and all. Which would very likely include a lot of grain, dirt and color noise as Mike points out in his video. However, Mike goes well beyond that using modern digital techniques to get the shot to look better and most notably smoother than it could ever have looked in 1977. Now, how is this different from going back to the original elements and using modern digital techniques, namely digital compositing to get the shot to look better than ever, which aside from the CGI Ronto is exactly what we got with the Special Editions. So, isn’t this shot not just another Special Edition? Additionally, I see a problem in removing grain this way. Namely, the lack of detail is indelibly linked to the grain and overall degradation of the shot. Removing this much grain and noise without significant detail enhancement results in a DNR-ed waxy image, that I’m not sure is a real improvement over the grainy alternative. What do you think?

I should add, that I really like the idea of taking multiple prints and combining them in an effort to get an image much closer to the original negative, but many of the shots Mike discusses go well beyond that. I also fear, that the focus on maximizing detail and minimizing grain for individual shots will result in a lack of cohesion between shots, because the techniques used may work wonders on one shot, but much less so on another. The result will be a mishmash of shots that are supremely detailed approaching the negative, and others that are only slightly better than the best technicolor prints.

That’s not quite right. In the mid nineties the film was physically and the color photochemically restored. Only those sections/elements that required CGI updates were scanned at 2K, reworked, and then film outs were created that were inserted in the restored negative, replacing the original shots:

http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

The 2004 release was based of a 2K scan of the negative, while the 2019 release is based on a 4K scan done in 2012.

Wazzles said:

The version Gareth Edwards saw was likely the current Disney+ version since it was in the works at the time.

Almost certainly since he mentioned at the time they just completed a new 4K restoration.

Whatever the source of these clips I’m happy, that unlike the updated Empire of Dreams this documentary will acknowledge the OOT.

yotsuya said:

BedeHistory731 said:

So, what’s the TL;DR of your DS9 criticism? I’m curious.

War. Star Trek is supposed to be about avoiding a conflict. I felt at the time and still do that DS9 was copying B5. B5 was about a war. What led up to it, the war itself, and the aftermath and I feel that DS9 decided to copy that. They’d already copied the format. B5 was offered to Paramount before WB picked it up. But the whole DS9 war storyline just felt contrived and against the principles of Star Trek. Plus, I really felt Star Trek fell off after TNG season 5. They divided the creative team and both series suffered. And when Trials and Tribbleations aired I just had this realization that it was sad that the best episode of DS9 was a callback to TOS. I stopped watching not long after.

My problem with Discovery is that they changed everything for change sake. And season 1 is about war. Not just that, but a war started by a student of Sarek. The first episode just felt like a common war SF with a Trek skin. And I just couldn’t get into season 2 and haven’t tried since.

I love Picard. I think it is the perfect follow on to TNG. Loved everything a out it. I love Strange New Worlds, but it is so obviously a reboot, but they went back and are telling TOS and TNG quality stories. I haven’t had a chance to watch the finale yet.

So my enjoyment of Obi-wan Kenobi probably parallels my enjoyment of Picard. The funny thing is that I’ve encountered so many people who love Discovery and hate Picard. I find that baffling on some levels, but on others it makes sense. As a 40 year Star Trek fan it just doesn’t make sense. But when I see what some fans say about various parts of Star Trek, I can see that there is some logic to it. They aren’t looking at it the same way I do. I’ve been trying to find what lies behind my differing views from many of you about TLJ, TROS, and now Kenobi.

The explanation is elementary, old friend. You are a masochist, who likes the emotional torment of watching bad films and shows. 😉

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

I find it disappointing that you can’t see and enjoy the variations that make this unique. To put it in music terms, you are focused on the melody being the same while missing that the lyrics are different. It is a valid opinion, but I think you are missing out.

It just doesn’t do much for me anymore. What suprised me most about the Obi-Wan series is how little the final fight between Obi-Wan and Vader moved me, despite Ewan McGregor’s great performance. It wasn’t always like that. I liked Mando season 1 quite a bit, because it focussed on new characters and a new story. I thought the second season was fine, but it was too preoccupied with cameos and fan service, while the entire raison d’etre of the second season has been undone before the third season started. The Book of Boba Fett was just a poorly written mess with one good Mando episode. Finally Obi-Wan ultimately was a few cool moments held together by a flimsy story and at times surprisingly lazy writing, and cheap visuals.

So, yeah maybe there are a few attempts at new lyrics, but those lyrics have recently neither been good or memorable.

The trailer for Andor looked good, I must admit, so maybe that series may surprise me. On the other hand:

“There’s an old saying in Tennessee - I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, 'Fool me once, shame on… shame on you. Fool me - you can’t get fooled again.”

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

yotsuya said:

Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

“It is possible he was concieved by the midichlorians.”

“You refer to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force for a little while…kinda…”

MalaStrana#2 said:

« No one’s ever really gone »

Probably not. If blowing up twice doesn’t do it, then crossing two lightsabers that cannot even kill one measly Inquisitor will definitely not do the trick. I guess Palps is like Chucky now. All that’s needed is a good Dumbella Chant.

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Palpatine was never truly gone. His physical body was destroyed, but his spirit endured and almost instantly inhabited a clone body. Hence, Anakin never restored balance, since the prophesy stated the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. Evidently he failed to do that. It also seems evident to me, that a millenia old prophesy would not pertain to just a few decades of peace or lack of activity from the Sith, especially one that already existed when the Sith were in hiding. TROS wanted to have its cake and eat it. Hence, having Anakin say “Restore balance like I did”. However, the reality is, that Anakin is just not the Chosen One, if you accept the narrative of TROS (which I don’t, since it’s a pretty awful film imo), and Rey restored balance, and thus is the Chosen One (if Palps is truly dead this time).

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
I suggest you watch it again.

Don’t be so cruel.

If you don’t rewatch it how can you be sure what you caught or missed? I’ve rewatched several things that I thought were really bad to be sure my opinion didn’t change. In this case it is obvious he missed how injured she is. I did the first time I watched it. The second time it was quite obvious.

I watched it more than once. She looks disheveled, but easily fights off Owen and Beru (aside from one punch on her “wound”), which makes here more furious. She has no trouble running after Luke in a fury. She clearly does not appear grievously injured. She does not significantly tire. She’s not limping, disoriented or showing clear indications of being in serious pain outside of a single moment when Owen hits her, but is not able to slow her down one bit.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Virtually unscathed? I suggest you watch it again.

She’s a bit sore and sensitive to the touch, like she has a stomach cramp, so yeah, virtually unscathed.

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option.

You know, this would be great, fantastic stuff if the series bothered to show us any of that. If we got to see Kenobi try to bring Anakin back only to fail. This never actually happened, though. He beat him, said his friend was truly dead, and walked away. Hell, even Obi-Wan hearing the voice of Padme saying that would have indicated it enough but not even that is expressed. And considering this series is made for casual SW fans as well as diehards, something like that would have been warranted if they were trying to get that idea across.

There’s never an any actual moment that lines up with Vader saying Obi-Wan thought there was good in him. It wasn’t shown in RotS and it wasn’t shown here, despite you filling in the blanks for the writers who should have known better. If they had written it in a way that reflected what you wrote, it would have made more sense. But they didn’t, so unfortunately, all of this? Is you writing the script for them.

So what we’re left with is an Obi-Wan who seemed to have every intention to kill Vader, to the point of even landing a blow to his face, internalizing and vocally emphasizing that his friend is gone forever, DEAD, and then deciding to let him live anyway with zero indications of any potential thought to there being good in him still. Not even an attempt to convince him. The writing and directing do not reflect it, so there is zero reason to believe it.

JEDIT: And even then, I still think the confrontation should have ended with Vader escaping rather than Obi-Wan sparing him. It would have absolved Obi-Wan of the responsibility, even if he didn’t intend to kill him. Really, this whole show dropped the ball on that idea in general, tbh.

I think it is also important to consider, what a Jedi is supposed to do with Vader, if they are not allowed to kill their enemy once defeated. Particulary in the situation, where there is no option to bring him to justice, since the Emperor controls all branches of government. ROTJ makes it clear, that Obi-Wan and Yoda don’t believe Vader can be redeemed, so how is Luke supposed to stop/conquer them, if he cannot kill them? So, let’s for the sake of argument say Luke defeats Vader and the Emperor, and they are at his mercy. What then?

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. Also reaching the « simplicity » of ANH is incredibly difficult : just see how complex OWK is. Complex and badly written. ANH has 2 action scenes in its first 30 minutes, introduces all its protagonists, establishes a complete universe with its rules and its story with what is clearly at stake (again compare with OWK: when does this show even try to create stakes others that the fact the audience knows Leia and Luke are kinda important in LATER movies?). You even get long sequences without dialogues and you get to follow two characters where none of which is even human. Simplicity here is the consequence of hard work, of multiple rewrites, of research, etc. OWK looks like a first draft that went in production as-is…

SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better. So was the music, the clever casting choices, the special effects, etc. It’s a miracle. Which could only exist because it has the solid roots of an amazing script that EVERY screenwriter does study.

I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

I don’t get what you’re arguing here. I’ve never said ANH is comparable to OBK in terms of script. The latter clearly has many issues that I am not defending.

The ANH script had everything it needed to be the film it became. I’m not slating it or the film. It also had a bunch of crap in it. Hard work across the board made the FILM work. The rough cut that more closely resembled the shooting script was described as an unmitigated disaster. I didn’t hear this in a ‘youtube video’, it was in the DVD documentary. The deleted scenes exist. It was edited to perfection.

I personally the “whole unmitigated disaster” is a hyperbole, that became very popular in the wake of the PT in part to discredit Lucas, but also a rationalization for the difference in percieved quality between the original film and the PT.

Here’s another perspective on this idea:

https://youtu.be/olqVGz6mOVE

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Why doesn’t Ben kill a defeated Vader?

Jedi Knights are honourable and chivalrous. Killing an opponent in a duel is one thing, but killing a vanquished fallen opponent is something entirely different. That is an execution.

We already see that when Anakin ‘executes’ a defeated Count Dooku. It is a wholly evil thing, and not the Jedi way.

So leaving Vader alive to murder millions of people is honourable and chivalrous? The situation with Dooku is not comparable, because Anakin had the option of letting Dooku stand trial. Obi-Wan on the other hand has to choose between two evils, where letting Vader live is clearly the worse option. Also, Yoda in ROTS sends Obi-Wan to kill Anakin, and Obi-Wan tells Luke, that if he will not kill Vader, the Emperor has already won.

Leaving Vader alive results in Palpatine’s defeat and the fall of the Empire (at least until Palapatine returned “somehow” lol).

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” to bring a bit of Tolkien into the Star Wars chat!

Anyway, I stand by my point that a Jedi executing a fallen foe would be completely out of character with the compassion and chivalry that is their code.

Fair enough, but then follow through on that, and don’t have Obi-Wan say, that either he or Vader will die today. That line is on the writers of the show. If Obi-Wan knows, that he cannot bring Vader to justice, and he won’t kill him either, just have him say, he will try to incapacitate Vader or stall him for as long as he can.

FrederikOlsen said:

DrDre said:

FrederikOlsen said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Why doesn’t Ben kill a defeated Vader?

Jedi Knights are honourable and chivalrous. Killing an opponent in a duel is one thing, but killing a vanquished fallen opponent is something entirely different. That is an execution.

We already see that when Anakin ‘executes’ a defeated Count Dooku. It is a wholly evil thing, and not the Jedi way.

Plus, trauma, shock and disgust. That much was evident from his reaction to Vader’s taunts. He wasn’t ready to see or hear that, even if it brought closure.

With the Jedi being inspired by samurais, I’m also sure he knew it would be more humiliating for Vader to crawl back to his shuttle in that state, rather than being killed in combat by his former master.

Mmm, what to do? Kill this mass murdering psychopath, who will undoubtedly continue to murder and maim, snapping the necks of innocent men, women, and children? Or humiliate the hell out of him by letting him crawl back to his shuttle? Easy choice really:

“Ze humiliation will be unbearable!”

It’s no different than every single James Bond villain informing their nemesis of their grand plan, only to leave him alive so he can make his escape and foil it. Or elderly Obi-Wan somehow thinking that lying through his teeth to manipulate Luke will make him want to become a Jedi and confront the Emperor. Even if Obi-Wan’s story about Vader killing Anakin only became a lie retroactively, people have been clutching at an explanation for decades.

If you’re expecting writing better than THAT from Star Wars, you were probably going to be disappointed no matter what Obi-Wan Kenobi did. The bad guys are very bad, and they wear evil, black robes and threatening helmets to denote that, and the good guys are very good. It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO. And I say that as someone who loves the OT dearly, but the visual effects, the music and the acting have all stuck with me more than the scripts.

To me that’s a straw man just like people said “Star Wars dialogue has always been bad” after the release of the PT. This show has set a new low for lapses in logic, and weak and lazy writing, and no this has not always been the case for the franchise.

It’s the same with Reva’ reappearance on Tatooine. People will say, that many Star Wars characters have come back from the dead. Anakin and Maul survived, why can’t Reva? Which to me is a really baffling argument. The point is not, that she survived (although there is little tension in a franchise, where death is treated like a running gag). The point is that Reva being stabbed has next to no consequences. Anakin had to be rescued and put in a suit to survive. Maul went mad and it took years to get his mojo back. Reva gets stabbed in the stomach, which if not lethal, should at the very least be a debilitating wound, but no she immediately jumps up and flies of to Tatooine, and other than a moment where she appears to be a little sensitive to the touch, she’s fine. It’s just patently ridiculous. Star Wars used to have stakes. Now it’s just spinning its wheels with characters who used to kill underlings for coming out of lightspeed to early letting enemies live for no other reason than, that the writers want them around for the next episode.

FrederikOlsen said:

Matt.F said:

RE: Why doesn’t Ben kill a defeated Vader?

Jedi Knights are honourable and chivalrous. Killing an opponent in a duel is one thing, but killing a vanquished fallen opponent is something entirely different. That is an execution.

We already see that when Anakin ‘executes’ a defeated Count Dooku. It is a wholly evil thing, and not the Jedi way.

Plus, trauma, shock and disgust. That much was evident from his reaction to Vader’s taunts. He wasn’t ready to see or hear that, even if it brought closure.

With the Jedi being inspired by samurais, I’m also sure he knew it would be more humiliating for Vader to crawl back to his shuttle in that state, rather than being killed in combat by his former master.

Mmm, what to do? Kill this mass murdering psychopath, who will undoubtedly continue to murder and maim, snapping the necks of innocent men, women, and children? Or humiliate the hell out of him by letting him crawl back to his shuttle? Easy choice really:

“Ze humiliation will be unbearable!”