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DrDre

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Post
#1260133
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

screams in the void said:

RogueLeader said:

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

EDIT: I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and I know it probably isn’t going to, but I just want to ask others who might disagree with me to stay open-minded about what I said. I love Star Wars, and I just want others to love it to. Like them or not, the Prequels and Sequels are a part of the Saga. You can choose to ignore them, but I just want others to try accept them and find meaning in their stories so people can enjoy them and have fun with the whole saga. That’s all I want! You guys are great, thanks for all of the interesting discussions.

I agree with this and am keeping an open mind . I have a copy of Joseph Campbell’s Hero With A Thousand Faces and it has an outline of the hero’s journey and TLJ follows that outline brilliantly . It is also worth noting that Carrie Fisher was an in demand script doctor and lent her input into the TLJ script .Also , regarding the recent conversation here , the HelloGreedo post that OOJason made a page or so back addresses a lot of the dynamics of recent conversations .When someone comments like this …“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?” or this “Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.” both are antagonistic . the first one is patronizing and the second one is insulting someones intelligence . You may not have intended it as you say , but perhaps people , and this includes myself , should think about how their comments will be received before making them .

I agree! I think great arguments are made from both parts of the fence, but I would be happier if there were no fence at all, and we would just accept we are all fans with different points of view willing to see the films through each other’s eyes.

Post
#1260124
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

I don’t think TLJ is a disaster. I don’t any of the films are. They each have their merits, but I view Johnson’s film as an attempt to delibirately deconstruct Lucas’ mythology only to reconstruct it in a more post-modern light. While I think the approach is interesting, I don’t think, it meshes well with Lucas’ vision, and would be suited better for a separate trilogy, rather than the eight part of a nine part story.

Post
#1260122
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

The entire conversation stemmed from this comment made by someone else:

“”“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?
Meh.
Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.”""

I said that that storytelling style has always been present in Star Wars and if you don’t think so, then you didn’t understand the other movies either. I stand by that statement.

I was not insulting anyone. It was not a personal attack. Just my advice to go back an look at the other Star Wars movies in a different light.

I disagree with you. There’s a marked difference in storytelling style between Lucas’ films and TLJ in my view in particular in the way Lucas shaped his modern myth, and in the way Johnsom deconstructs that myth, only to reconstruct in a more post-modern context. There’s a difference between viewing the original films in their original context, and by viewing them in the context TLJ provides. Some of us might be inclined to suggest the movies were always meant to be seen in this light, but I’m inclined to disagree, and believe Lucas would as well.

Post
#1260115
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Luke was whiny and immature. Most of his training centered around focus. Rey has plenty of focus and self reliance. The Force accents traits you already posses. Rey is already a pilot and great fighter when we meet her. You’re right, she is on another level.

Force abilities manifest themselves. Jedi training seems to be mainly learning the Jedi way in how to be disciplined and adhere to the Jedi code.

I love that Rey is not beholden to what came before. If I wanted to watch another movie with a master teaching an apprentice, well we have those movies already. I’d rather see how Rey does it this time.

You don’t need to show a master training an apprentice to suggest that she was trained. The movie can focus on other elements of the story in stead.

Post
#1260113
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims.

I do not agree with your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but I can’t do anything about how you choose to see things. I just think it is a very pessimistic view and projects a lot into the story.

My original comment was the same symbolic and moralistic storytelling that is present in The Last Jedi is also present in the other Star Wars movies. You are free to like and dislike whatever you want or interpret things however pessimistically you choose, but to try and boil Star Wars down to the previous movies being simple escapism and devoid of symbolism and moral lessons is just plain incorrect.

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

Post
#1260111
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

NeverarGreat said:

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

Not everyone can, but Rey can, just like Luke was better than a targeting computer on a sophisticated space fighter and a child can be the only human able to pilot a dangerous podracer.

He can see things before they happen. It’s a Jedi trait. As such Luke and Anakin’s early abilities are normal for a Jedi, even if their abilities are exceptional in-universe. However, both required training to reach their potential. Rey is on a whole other level though, and masters abilities almost instantly without any training whatsoever. Two explanation are given, the first being that “darkness rises, and light to meet it”, a new concept that is not wholly compatible with what came before in my view, and the concept that Rey downloaded the knowledge from Kylo’s mind introduced in the book, an idea that negates the whole concept of Jedi training imo.

Post
#1260106
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

You are entitled to your own opinion. Not everyone likes the same things and art is subjective. But story elements are not subjective and you are not entitled to your own facts.

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims. Story elements as they appear on screen have to be interpreted, and are thus rarely factual as they can be seen kn many different contexts. The artist can provide his intentions, but even then this may not translate to the viewer. Even the artist’s interpretation may change over time, the history of the OT and its special editions are a testament to that.

Post
#1260103
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

It’s all a matter of degrees. I would argue space wizardry has had a serious demotion in the ST, both in terms of what we can expect of it, and in terms of what it takes to become a space wizard.

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

With expect I mean the point of view that if you believe, anything is possible. One might argue that it is a myth that you can achieve anything if you work hard enough af it, whilst in reality hard workers fail, and lazy people succeed. In my view myths exist to in part inspire us to reach for the skies, to have us believe the myth, if only for a while, which is where the escapism comes in.

Post
#1260097
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

It’s all a matter of degrees. I would argue space wizardry has had a serious demotion in the ST, both in terms of what we can expect of it, and in terms of what it takes to become a space wizard.

Post
#1260096
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but on my view clashes with the concepts of the modern myth as set out by Lucas.

That is your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but it is not one I remotely share.

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

Post
#1260091
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Your escapism sounds narrow and dogmatic. I did the opposite of defining escapism as spaceships and lightsabers. My entire post was that escapism is so much more than that.

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by the reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but in my view clashes with the concepts set out by Lucas, and in some ways actively undermines them.

Post
#1260086
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

My comment was in reference to saying Star Wars should just be escapism, so it wasn’t me stating absolutes about what Star Wars should be or shouldn’t be.

First off the it can be many things at the same time. It can provide escapism and be deeply symbolic and thought provoking. They are not mutually exclusive ideals. In fact, Id go so far s to say the best escapism is one where we can draw parallels to our own personal lives and the world around us. Which leads us to the meaning of my comment. Star Wars was built by George Lucas from the ground up and based on fundamental character archetypes and symbolic tales. To say Star Wars is just escapism to me says someone doesn’t understand why the movies carry so much impact. It isn’t all because of spaceships and lightsabers.

I think you’re short changing escapism by confining its definition to spaceships and lightsabers in the context of Star Wars.

“Escapism is the avoidance of unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persistent feelings of depression or general sadness.”

The fact that Star Wars impacts the way we view the world does not imply that it should necessarily reflect our own reality, where archetypes and symbolism are often far from reality.

Post
#1260075
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

To expand on the mythology part of my post, I will use this rather intersting and eloquent pro-TLJ article as a starting point to argue where much of the misunderstanding of TLJ’s critics is rooted in my view:

http://lewtonbus.net/editorials/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-the-power-of-myth-revisited/

From a more critical perspective these two lines to me are at the heart of what Rian Johnson and his supporters don’t understand about the criticism leveled at The Last Jedi from the perspective of the mythology:

“Through a very simple metaphor, Johnson is reinforcing once again that, yes, Star Wars is kind of phony–that heroes like Luke Skywalker do not exist and will not swoop in and save us at the last minute; that, in this turbulent world, we’re on our own–but Johnson nevertheless believes that all the fakery of Star Wars has real value.”

“Because, in mythology, it does not matter if the stories hold literal truth, if they adhere to a rigid continuity, or even if any of they make a damn lick of sense. Anyone who has read Le Morte D’Artur or The Bible knows that they lack historical credibility, and that their tales are often messy, confused, and riddled with contradictions.”

This may very well be true, but within the confines of Le Morte D’Artur or The Bible these myths are true. It is one thing to doubt historical credibility in relation to the real world, it is another to subvert a mythology from within itself. It’s like the ring of power in LOTR being revealed to have had no real power within a sequel, nothing more than a trinket, only holding a symbolic power. It is a symbol in our real world for sure, but within the confines of Tolkien’s universe its powers are real, and should be to appreciate the story as Tolkien intended. Here’s another example. Within the DC universe Superman can fly. Observing that people can’t fly in the real world is not a good defence for a story, where Lois Lane discovers the strings that keep Superman from falling to the ground. In the DC universe the fact that Superman can fly is a reality, and it doesn’t matter that it cannot be true in our real world.

So, while Star Wars is kind of phony–that heroes like Luke Skywalker do not exist and will not swoop in and save us at the last minute in the real world, up till The Last Jedi, heroes like Luke Skywalker used to exist in the Star Wars universe itself. The legend of Luke Skywalker was real, and tangible in-universe. The Last Jedi changed that by having the mythical characters in the universe itself doubt their own reality to the point that Luke Skywalker is now a legend within a legend. Within the Star Wars universe the legend of Luke Skywalker has value, but is no longer real. Like Luke appearing on Crait, it’s an illusion. Some may like this post-modern take on myths and legends, but many others including myself don’t.

Post
#1258824
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

deathstar1138 said:

Why are you double posting shots of Return of the Jedi here in the Star Wars thread.

And then people post a one word comment, and quote the entire image again, so we
see it 3 times.

It’s already in the Jedi thread. Am I missing something.

Because the audience for both threads is not necessarily the same. Some follow my own treads, while others might be interested specifically in 4k83 or news surrounding ROTJ. Since, this my own thread I think it is my prerogative to post, what I consider relevant to the thread or future projects, I might work on, while the post in the 4k83 thread is relevant specifically to those interested in developments surrounding 4k83.