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DrDre

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16-Mar-2015
Last activity
16-Dec-2018
Posts
3982

Post History

Post
#1241619
Topic
4k77 released
Time

You_Too said:
Here’s those two shots from 4K77 compared to my corrections, to give an idea of what it could all look like if someone ever did a proper shot by shot correction. (Which would of course take a horrible amount of work. I still think the 4K77 looks amazing as it is!) I used the 1080p version for my corrections since it’s the only version I have, so if you see any compression artifacts it’s just because the source isn’t lossless. Whites and blacks were balanced while keeping the mid balance and altering the gamma curve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120762
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120764

I’m actually working on a shot by shot correction, where the aim is to approach the theatrical color grading but without the color casts and inconcistencies introduced by the technicolor printing process. Here’s another example of where I would put a preliminary color grading for the two cantina shots based on the references I have:

Skymaster:

Your corrections:

My corrections:

For comparison are those shots for the bluray:

Post
#1241616
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

Post
#1241578
Topic
4k77 released
Time

You_Too said:

DrDre said:
Actually, I think a lot of detail is missing in that shot, and it’s overall too bright, and too yellow in my view. If I had to wager a guess, I would go with something like this:

No detail missing in my version since I didn’t crush the whites or blacks. Your version is closer to what it looked like when it was shot, my correction examples are aimed on keeping the theatrical color timing. What I meant was that the SkyMaster edition isn’t keeping the mid balance of the Tech print thus creating a different color. I’ve often found that by leaving the midpoint alone and only adjusting white and black points and gamma curve, you can often get the “correct” theatrical look of each shot if you’d want to.

Anyway, I found lots of errors with the SkyMaster preview. It had crushed whites, it wasn’t a screenshot error. The DNR overall looks superior to the official DNR version, but it handles dark scenes badly. (The official DNR version looks great too of course, except for the automatic color balance in each shot but that’s my opinion since I love the theatrical look and I’m so much into colors) There are lots of artifacts in the dark scenes in the SkyMaster preview. Note that these are errors with the DNR filter, not criticizm from me! 😃 Pointing them out might help?
Some examples, SkyMaster with 4K77 on mouseover: (Couldn’t upload all in a single post for some reason)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120755 (the right guard’s glove)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120756 (the stuff flying off the table and highlights on the wall pipes)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120757 (Obi-wan’s saber hilt on the right side of the picture)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120758 (Details in Obi-wan’s face, reflections in his eyes, some weird thing on the right side of him)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120759 (The opening between the two people in the back on the right side)

I also think it looks kinda strange to basically use a blanket tint in the scene where they talk to Han. It removes almost all the color from the picture.
Here are a couple comparisons with SkyMaster vs my own color corrections. (Once again leaving the midpoint to keep the theatrical color and just balancing the rest)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120760
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120761
Notice how the blanket tint in SkyMaster removes most of the difference between the lip and skin color, the eye color and so on. Of course, this is my opinion and not trying to bash this version. If this is the look they want, it’s their choice. 😃

Here’s those two shots from 4K77 compared to my corrections, to give an idea of what it could all look like if someone ever did a proper shot by shot correction. (Which would of course take a horrible amount of work. I still think the 4K77 looks amazing as it is!) I used the 1080p version for my corrections since it’s the only version I have, so if you see any compression artifacts it’s just because the source isn’t lossless. Whites and blacks were balanced while keeping the mid balance and altering the gamma curve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120762
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120764

I’ve checked the technicolor print frames I have for this shot, and it’s really not this yellow. There’s a bit more than in mine, but not much:

The scan itself is not a very reliable color reference, and the colors of the raw scan are actually less yellow than my first attempt, which was based on my color corrections for reel 2, and are slightly more balanced than the technicolor print reference frames I have, that have somewhat of a green cast. So, I would say my first attempt at correcting the shot is pretty close to the theatrical color timing minus the technicolor green cast.

Ps. What I meant with missing detail, is that the gamma settings in your version seems to obscure a lot of detail in the sand giving the image an overexposed look in my view. I also feel there’s a tendency to overcompensate for the deficiencies of the bluray, resulting in an overly bright image:

Post
#1241368
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

I personally feel some of your corrections look a little washed out, as if colors are missing. I also think you might elaborate a bit on the concept of “the wrong hue”. You have used this phrase more often in the past, and it makes it seem like there’s some clear definition of what is the “right hue”. In principle there can be any number of hues, and not one of them is wrong or right. However, I would say in the type of correction I’m going for the most important considerations are the colors of the original photography, and whatever effects may have been added to get to the original color timing was as seen in cinemas.

Post
#1241365
Topic
4k77 released
Time

You_Too said:

Williarob said:
In the meantime, there is a spin off project called “The Skywalker Edition” that uses 4K77 as a jumping off point and may be closer to what you had in mind:

I’m gonna watch the preview and see what it looks like. The screenshot has nice details but is slightly too green and the whites are crushed. But I suspect this is a case of conversion between 16-235 and 0-255 that has caused it. It’s also more cropped, but that’s understandable if it’s based on more sources.

If I do the same kind of fix to that shot from 4K77, (Balance the white point but keep the mid balance and alter the gamma a bit) it comes out like this:

Actually, I think a lot of detail is missing in that shot, and it’s overall too bright, and too yellow in my view. If I had to wager a guess, I would go with something like this:

Post
#1240886
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

MalàStrana said:

DrDre said:

Here goes:

The Empire Strikes Back (9.5/10)
Star Wars (9/10)
Return Of The Jedi (8/10)
Revenge of the Sith (7/10)
Rogue One (7/10)
The Phantom Menace (6.5/10)
Attack of the Clones (6/10)
The Force Awakens (6/10)
The Last Jedi (5/10)

Nice ranking ! It’s good to see that EpIII ranked as the best post-OT entry. It’s well deserved. It’s also very nice to see a OT.com member who actually likes (more or less) all of them.

Thanks! I have found enjoyment in all Star Wars movies. 😃 I actually forgot to put Solo in my ranking, which might seem like a sort of criticism of the movie itself. I enjoyed it overall, but it’s also the most forgettable movie for me thusfar.

Post
#1240841
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

“Empire” and “Jedi” had nothing parodistic; their absurd earnestness and the bombastic banality of their direction (by Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, respectively) are a perfect match for the oppressive, hectoring John Williams scores that accompanied them. If there was nostalgic, faux-naïve whimsy in Lucas’s inaugural installment of “Star Wars,” it was gone from “Empire” and “Jedi,” replaced by a hegemonic bellow for devotion and belief.” - Brody

Monocle

LOL

Post
#1240837
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

At this point I don’t think you should be surprised by anyone putting TLJ last (no pun intended).

Indeed, the latest poll for worst Star Wars movie on the TFN boards shows 30% of voters vote for TLJ. It is also the favourite Star Wars movie for 20% of the voters in the favourite Star Wars movie poll.

TFN. There’s an as-if random sampling scheme if I ever saw one, lol.

Well firstly, Jedi Council Forums is the largest Star Wars fan forum in existence. Secondly, the sample sizes in these polls is statistically large enough to support the thesis, that a significant proportion of fans will put TLJ either at the top or at the bottom of their rankings, confirming the by now well known and widely accepted view that TLJ is a divisive film, which was the point of my original post, made in response to Anakin Starkiller’s remark that people shouldn’t be surprised, that some of us put TLJ at the bottom of our rankings.

Post
#1240570
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

Collipso said:

i get what you’re saying but i don’t think it’s that much of a jump to go from a direct complement of the OT to an indirect one.

I’m not sure future canon should complement the OT at all. There are certain elements that make up the universe, but for once I would like to see a story completely divorced from the narrative trappings of the OT.

Post
#1240568
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

it’s interesting because when i think of ‘Star Wars’ i think of the original, then of the star wars trilogy, and then of the complements of that story. what dom said above is something i think several of us think. the OT is Star Wars, as in that is Luke’s story, the main story. that’s what it was about. the PT is how the status quo of that story came to be and the ST is just a continuation. so in a way Star Wars actually ended in 1983 (or even 1977 to some) and the rest is complement. i don’t think it’s going to be hard to take the further step of focusing on different stories set in the same universe. i think it’s going to be something like what Fantastic Beasts was to Harry Potter.

In a way the entire franchise has been held hostage by the OT since 1983, and almost every piece of what is now considered canon is in the service of those films.

Post
#1240566
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

RogueLeader said:

DrDre said:

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

This is a really great question. I think content like Knights of the Old Republic was extremely popular, and it featured no Skywalker’s, so I definitely think the franchise can survive without them.

Just create an interesting world with relatable characters with just a hint of those familiar elements, like weird aliens, droids, the Force, etc. and I think the franchise could really evolve in interesting ways. Really Star Wars has to evolve beyond that to survive into the future.

Agreed!

Post
#1240565
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, I think the wording of the TLJ crawl (and the TFA crawl) could have been done a little differently to clarify the situation better.

I like to think that even though the FO is only a fraction of the size of the old empire (and looks like putting a lot of their money into projects, like SKB and the Supremacy, and upgrading old Empire tech rather than just being at the same unit size of the Galactic Empire), they’re extremely organized and have planned for this moment for years.

With the New Republic, I picture it as if the attack on Pearl Harbor was more successful.

The whole issue with the New Republic was that they didn’t want to create a large standing army like the Galactic Republic had at the outbreak of the Clone Wars, because they felt it gave the centralized government so much authority that it allowed the Republic to become a totalitarian regime in the first place. They understandably feared that happening again, and thought their biggest threat was long gone.

The New Republic did have their own defense force, but nowhere near the scale of the Clone Wars era Republic or the Empire. The New Republic was set up to rely more on the defense forces of the different planetary systems within their government, rather than have its own huge military.

And although they did take out a significant portion of the New Republic fleet, the most important thing was that they also destroyed their leadership.
So while all of combined defense forces of the different Republic worlds might be larger than the FO, they are disorganized and now more worried about defending their own worlds against this military junta that’s united and prepared. It’s a divide and conquer strategy.

That’s why Leia and Luke are such a threat to them. The idea of the Jedi could reunite the galaxy, and Leia knows that.

So I kind of wish that was more of the wording of the opening crawl, not that all of the ships in the entire Republic were destroyed, but the destruction of the Senate basically divided whatever forces were left into disarray.

So to me, I think the elements are there, but them being afraid of delving into politics really hurt the clarification of the situation. And I think proper opening crawls, a deletion of a line or two, and maybe the addition of one or two deleted scenes of Leia could’ve helped address some questions people had.

And from what I understand, actually making Luke the McGuffin of TFA wasn’t JJ’s idea.

I get what you’re saying Collipso, but in that moment Leia has lost all hope, which make Luke coming back to reignite that hope makes it so powerful.

Good post! I think providing a bit more context would have really helped to connect past and present events, whilst also highlighting some of the differences between this conflict and the previous one.

Post
#1240557
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

I disagree. Both the New Republic and the FO suffered a major setback, but it only seems to have affected the good guys, and the FO reigns the galaxy from the moment TLJ begins, as stated in the crawl. The fight in TFA was uneven, because the New Republic wouldn’t openly oppose the FO. In TLJ the fight is uneven, because the rebels are the only ones left standing, and the galaxy is about to be overrun.

If you’re saying TLJ had the ability to move in a different direction, I don’t disagree. But the direction it went it was completely valid and in keeping with what TFA established.

First of all, you’re taking “the First Order reigns” too literally to mean that they literally control the whole galaxy, when the meaning here is that they’ve simply become the most preeminent force in the galaxy. The New Republic’s leadership has been shattered, which has left the rest of it in complete disarray (which is why the FO has been so easily taking over, as stated in the film). The Resistance/rebels aren’t the only ones left standing, in fact it is stated that Leia has allies that have the strength and power to stand up and oppose the FO’s conquest alongside her, if only they could believe that it is a fight they can win. So we went from uneven fight because the New Republic won’t publicly oppose, to uneven fight because the New Republic’s head’s been cut off, with FO swooping in to pick up the pieces and the rest being to afraid to help fight back.

I’m taking the statement in the crawl literally, because there’s very little in the movie to suggest otherwise. Throughout TLJ the FO seems firmly in control. You might argue TLJ’s direction is valid, and I would agree to an extend, but I would also argue it further diminishes the outcome of ROTJ by making it seem the New Republic is so inept, that it is wiped out in an instant, conveniently parking its entire fleet near Hosian Prime, such that the galaxy can return to an Empire vs rebels type conflict for real.

Post
#1240554
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Considering that SKB apparently was also their home world I don’t necessarily agree. I would have argued after TFA, that they put most of their resources into turning their homeworld into a super weapon. The FO seemed more like the rebels in TESB to me, forced to hide on an ice cube in the unknown regions.

There’s nothing in the film to suggest that the SKB is their home world, nor that all of their resources were contained on that planet.

As for hiding on an ice cube, this

looks quite a bit different than this

It looks different for sure, but the entire base to me looks like something from a James Bond movie, the secret base of a terrorist organisation like Spectre. The fact that the FO resides on an inhabitable ice cube strongly suggests they were forced to build up their military strength in secret.

Post
#1240553
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Again I agree with Biggs here (to an extent, I think the FO’s wealth in relation to the Empire is up for debate). Everything you stated, Dre, is as true in TFA as it is in TLJ. (Which, by the way is what I mean when I say that fans aren’t angry TLJ did a 180 on TFA, they’re angry that it didn’t.)

By the way we’re way off topic at this point.

I disagree. Both the New Republic and the FO suffered a major setback, but it only seems to have affected the good guys, and the FO reigns the galaxy from the moment TLJ begins, as stated in the crawl. The fight in TFA was uneven, because the New Republic wouldn’t openly oppose the FO. In TLJ the fight is uneven, because the rebels are the only ones left standing, and the galaxy is about to be overrun.

Post
#1240550
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

I mean, the FO was already more resource rich than the Empire, if the third (and bigger badder) Death Star is anything to go by.

Considering that SKB apparently was also their home world I don’t necessarily agree. I would have argued after TFA, that they put most of their resources into turning their homeworld into a super weapon. The FO seemed more like the rebels in TESB to me, forced to hide on an ice cube in the unknown regions.

Post
#1240546
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

“Served its purpose”.
Like I said before, the “this movie needed to ease people back in with nostalgia and the next movies could be different” line doesn’t work when TFA locked in the nostagliamax art direction and Rebels vs Empire rehash, among other things.
Rebooting ANH made the entire trilogy stillborn.

I agree it didn’t make things easy for RJ, but the existence of the New Republic, and the fringe government nature of the FO left its sequel with enough possibilities to take things in a different direction, despite TFA’s tendency to copy ANH. TFA ends with both the New Republic, and the FO suffering a major defeat. It was TLJ that turned the FO into an organisation with unlimited resources like the Empire, the Resistance into rebels, and prevented the New Republic from being an active participant in the rest of the story.

Post
#1240542
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

As much as I disagree with your assessment, I do think there’s a kernel of truth somewhere in there. I would argue that the reason TLJ was so divisive is only partially because of TLJ itself, I think a significant amount of the hate comes from people who like TFA conditionally, who saw it and thought “well I don’t know, I guess it was fun but let’s see where this goes.” Since TFA was just the start it was easy to put aside the elements they didn’t care for and try to imagine things would be more to their liking next time. When TLJ doubled down on that track, and with 2/3 of the ST in existence, it makes sense that we’re now seeing some pent up frustrations with the overall direction of the trilogy coming to the fore only now.

The truth is I think the large majority of what’s divisive about TLJ can be found in TFA as well. The only thing, in my mind, besides what I mentioned above that makes TLJ more divisive is that it is less easy breezy and fan servicey/conservative than TFA.

Which is to say nothing of the fact that, if this forum is any indication, TFA was not universally loved by fans. I personally thought the TFA debates would never end. Thankfully I know now that the TLJ debates will subside once IX is released.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Post
#1240535
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

BiggsFan44 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.

People realized that TFA was hollow.

I don’t agree. TFA served its purpose of mostly being a nostalgia trip, and while most felt it was derivative of ANH and very safe, I think only relatively small minority actually truly disliked it.

Post
#1240526
Topic
Star Wars as a cohesive universe/canon.
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

It’s not just Marvel. Star Wars has become a poster boy for fan toxicity in the eyes of the media. Its fans are at war with each other over the future of the franchise. I would say the franchise is in a deep crisis, yet LFM seems to be oblivious to this, or is ignoring it altogether.

What are they supposed to do to fix this? I can’t think of any feasible solution. You speak out against toxicity, fans complain that you’re calling everyone toxic. You make a movie doing something interesting, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make a movie catering to fans, fans complain it’s not what they want. You make no movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. You make lots of movies, fans complain that the franchise is dying. The truth is there’s no winning. Star Wars as a franchise just has a lot of shitty fans. This has been true and obvious for almost two decades now. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think it’s too easy to blame the fans. The fact is that TFA and RO were generally well recieved by fans and critics alike, despite being derivative and rife with fan service. Evidently something changed after the release of TLJ.