Sign In

DrDre

User Group
Trusted Members
Join date
16-Mar-2015
Last activity
19-Aug-2018
Posts
3845

Post History

Post
#1230861
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

That’s a running theme in the ST, mixed signals, and confusing messages. The FO get their home base blown up, yet it doesn’t stop them from walking all over the NR and the Resistance in a matter of days. They reign according to the opening crawl, yet they apparently do not yet control the all the major systems. The rebels are reduced to a few people on board a space cruiser, yet they have everything they need, and are the spark that will light the fire yada yada. Luke went looking for the first Jedi Temple, seemingly leaving a map to his location, yet he only went there to die, and doesn’t want to be found. Rey is a novice, and not a Jedi, yet she has most if not all of a Jedi’s powers, and is continually referred to as Kylo Ren’s equal in the light, Kylo who by Snoke’s own admission has completed his training, and is now the big bad after taking his master’s place. All the elements of the OT are deliberately repurposed, but they are mixed up, and executed in a shoddy manner imo by taking narrative short cuts, compressing time scales, and by putting the cart before the horse.

Post
#1230843
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Luke would have been dead at the hands of the Emperor, if not for Vader. I guess someone should revoke his Jedi membership card. Rey is the catalyst for Ben’s actions, even if he makes the wrong decision in the end. The sequence plays out just like ROTJ, except for Rey rejecting Kylo rather than Palpatine, and they have a confrontation involving a lightsaber, where neither comes out on top, showing she is Kylo’s equal in the light, as Snoke claimed she was. Kylo Ren who according to Snoke was about to complete his training becoming the anti-Jedi (Sith cough). If she is his equal in the light according to RJ, then what would that logically make her? That’s right, a Jedi.

Post
#1230833
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy to many for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.

Post
#1230826
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus has the right to call himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of being a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.

Post
#1230479
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

To expand on this, while being a Jedi is obviously more than having Force powers, up till the ST the two were intimately linked. Mastering these skills was the hallmark of a Jedi. Why? Because these skills were only attainable through a level of seriousness, commitment, detachment, and control that comes with being a Jedi. As such, being able to go toe to toe with experienced Force users implied being anything but a novice. The ST now effectively tries to sell the idea, that Rey whilst having all these amazing skills, which were up to the ST typical of a fully trained Jedi, and not seeming inferior to Ben Solo (who she already defeated once in an unfair fight, but still) in their fight against Snoke’s elite guard, is still a novice. It’s trying to sell the idea, that someone who consistently hits the bulls eye is not a good darts player, because there’s more to being a darts player than hitting the bullseye. Yet, history tells us, that being able to hit the bullseye is the hallmark of a good darts player, and Rey has an impressive record when it comes to hitting bullseyes.

Post
#1230456
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

Post
#1230432
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills, and clearly has an unprecedented level of control. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again? I’m sure she could learn a whole lot more, but then again so did Luke at the end of ROTJ.

Post
#1230423
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.

Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.

Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this “my opinion is more objective than yours” attitude.

Regardless of the rest of it, Lucas most definitely either talks nonsense, or lies, or both, when discussing his creation.

I agree he is not the most consistent person in the world, and he too has been known to retroactively claim certain ideas where there from the beginning, however the idea that you have to study and train to be a Jedi has been in the movies since TESB. The PT introduced Jedi Temple’s where people study for over a decade before they could call themselves a Jedi Knight. So, if someone then claims there’s clear evidence in Lucas’ films, that you can just pick up these skills on the fly, I find that a very unlikely interpretation of events. I might have said it is objectively wrong, but then I don’t deal in fact, only opinion.

Post
#1230406
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon it. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow when his life depended on it. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for years, whilst also being trained by Yoda.

Yeah, from what Yoda said in TESB, Luke hadn’t been studying. Dabbling, but not studying. He had very little to go one. A couple of things from Obi-wan about instinct and trusting the force, but not enough to do anything. And in TESB, Luke is in that “look what I’ve learned” phase before the master swats him down. Vader played with him in TESB. The best Luke could do was a glancing blow on Vader’s armor. I would say Luke trained for 2-months and the rest of what he did can hardly be called training. And it hadn’t done him much good since he couldn’t lift the X-wing. Meanwhile, you forget that Rey was in a school of a different sort on Jakku. You ignore that not all lessons can be learned in a formal environment. You give Luke credit for the two tiny lessons Ben gave him, but none for the time that Rey spent on Jakku. Yes, I am suggesting kind of a Karate Kid type training where learning to wax a car and paint a fence turns out to be training for martial arts. But what the force requires is faith. But what can be clearly seen, is that whatever prerequisite for learning force skills and making use of them that Rey learned on Jakku and Luke had some very counter productive life lessons on Tatooine. Obi-wan and Yoda had to overcome how Luke was raised. Rey does not have that problem. She has other issues. She didn’t see her parents in the cave, she saw no one but herself. Luke saw himself in Vader. And according to the great Miyamoto Musashi, if you are a skilled fighter, you should be able to pick up any weapons. Finn picked up the lightsaber and did a passable job against Kylo. Rey was doing a passable job until Kylo basically paused and told her to use the force and she did and she beat him. She then used the lightsaber as effortlessly as she had her staff. Your argument makes a lot of assumptions. I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.

Yes, I know you’re the only person here dealing with facts. You’re the only objective person in the room, and the only person capable of correctly interpreting Lucas’ movies. Heck, even Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His point of view doesn’t fit your narrative, so he must be talking nonsense. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but you really invite these reactions with statements like: “I try to build mine with facts. Not all are from Star Wars, but I either rely on what the movies show or what people are really like and capable of.” We can disagree about the interpretations of movies, but I really can’t stand this attitude, which boils down to my opinion objectively better than yours.

Post
#1230392
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Man, you picked up on that one tiny line and ignored everything else I said. If it takes years to learn the force, how did Luke do it? He had months of training and 1 year between his most intensive training and ROTJ. That isn’t years so Lucas saying that is about as accurate as some other things he has said over the years. Plus you ignore that she was skilled at combat BEFORE TFA starts. Nice job of taking one line and making your rebuttal entirely about something that had very little do to with the rest of what I wrote. Nice job. Good strawman argument. Well done.

Skilled at combat does not a good Jedi make. Han was skilled at combat. Does this mean he can pick up a lightsaber, and beat Darth Vader? I think not. You seem to have forgotten Luke’s line in TESB where he literally states: "but I’ve learned so much! Luke had three years to study, and practise the skills he was taught by Obi-Wan, and expand upon them. Yet, it took him three years to be able to pull a lightsaber from the snow, when his life depended on it. It is that hard, even if the Force is stromg in your family. Then he trained with Yoda, after which he spent another year studying his craft. So, yes Luke studied for months if not years, whilst also being trained by the best, Master Yoda. Rey picked up all these advanced Jedi skills in days, in days, despite the fact that Luke refused to help her. There’s just no comparison.

Post
#1230343
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

UnitéD2 said:

Is R2’s blue that strong in these shots ?

I might reduce the blue saturation in these shots somewhat, since it is pretty strong, but standing directly in the sun light, R2 is pretty blue. These are also the balanced shots. Adding the warmth and greenish hue of technicolor will reduce the blue in favour of reds, yellows, and greens.

Here’s an update with less blue:

Post
#1230339
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

I think you nailed it. A lot of what I hear (not just here) is that it breaks the rules. And when the rules are spelled out, they aren’t actually rules that the movies dictate. Complaints about how Rey learns the force skills don’t make sense to me. One easy lesson on the Falcon (without Ben demonstrating) and Luke can deflect blaster bolts while blind. Without any lessons or examples, Luke grabs his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. That is the first time we saw any Jedi levitate an object. While it is true that we don’t see the entirely of how Yoda trains Luke, we see Luke levitate small things, up to R2, and then fail to levitate his X-wing. Yoda says it is because he doesn’t believe he can because it is too big. With Rey, we see her exposed to mind reading, force suggestions, levitation, fighting with a lightsaber and then she does them (not all without some failure). From what I see, she learned them as easily as Luke did. She just learned more in a shorter time. Nothing different about how she did it. Implying that there is means you are going off of something that isn’t actually in the OT. (we never see anyone learn new force skills in the PT so any comparison to Anakin is pointless - all his training took place between the movies)

So both Luke and Rey seem to pick up force skills with little training. We never see Luke learn the skills he uses after the Wampa cave. He force jumps out of the carbon freeze chamber. He calls to Leia mentally. He force chokes Jabba’s guards. He uses force suggestion on Bib Fortuna (and tries to on Jabba). His ability with a lightsaber has grown to where he is a match for Vader. And when you look at the films. Luke only has a short time with two masters. The short trip from Tatooine to Alderaan with Ben and the time on Dagobah with Yoda (which was during the time that the Falcon was traveling from Hoth to Bespin - either sublight or a slow backup hyperdrive depending on who you ask). That is far less than the 10 years Anakin spent training. So obviously the Jedi spent a lot of time training on things besides force powers. Yoda spent a lot of the time we see on philosophy rather than skills in what we see with Luke.

So I really have to ask how Rey learns these things faster than Luke did? She learns more skills in a shorter time, but on a skill by skill comparison, she learns just as fast, not faster. That is what the movies show. Where does the idea that she is learning too easily come from? She at least has an example for each of her new skills. Luke doesn’t. Luke learns levitation from desperation, not because he has seen it before. Deflecting blaster bolts (which he doesn’t use until ROTJ) is the only force skill we actually see him learn directly from someone else (and Ben doesn’t demonstrate). In that light, Luke is the super Jedi, not Rey. The biggest difference between them is that Luke has doubts and Rey doesn’t. She sees these things and does them (“do or do not, there is no try” comes to mind).

The answer to this is that Rey learns too much too fast and that seems wrong to some. It isn’t and doesn’t violate a single movie established rule of the Star Wars universe. She goes through a process we have never actually seen before - the learning of force skills by example. We don’t know what is normal except for what little we have seen with Luke. Luke learned somethings completely on his own (there is no evidence that Ben was trying to train him between ANH and TESB so we can’t assume Luke’s attempt to levitate his lightsaber was using anything more than Ben’s vague “Use the force, Luke,” instructions). And Kylo doesn’t seem surprised that she picks up things so fast. Snoke even gets a laugh out of it. No surprise from them or Luke. So it is fan surprise that she learns the way she does at the speed she does that is out of place. If it jerks you out of the movie it means you have build up an idea in your head that isn’t supported by what we have seen in the first two trilogies.

Or some fans are simply willing to ignore what’s in the first two trilogies like RJ did, because it better fits their narrative. You use a ST in-universe reaction from Luke and Snoke to support your thesis, a reaction written by the same person who has no qualms about “bending” the rules to suit his story. If ever there was an unreliable set of references, it is the one you are using now. Rey is able to achieve a combination of incredible feats, including in random order: a Jedi mind trick, levating a ton of boulders, reading Ben Solo’s thoughts and feelings, actively feel Luke through the Force, defeat an experienced albeit wounded dark side user with a lightsaber on her first try, defeat a host of Snoke’s elite guard with her lightsaber on her second try, resist the temptation of the dark side, survive the destruction of the Supremacy, and still be in time to save the day. All this she did within days of first hearing, that the Force, and the Jedi are not just the stuff of myth and legend. I’m fine with anyone willing to accept RJ’s rule bending for the sake of what they consider a great story. I’m not so thrilled about fans pretending these rules never existed, especially in the face of the creator of the first two trilogies crystal clear explanation, that it takes years to learn the Force, and that you don’t just get it. Rey just gets it, ergo she does not play by Lucas’ rules.

Post
#1229950
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”

You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.

I’m absolutely fine with that. We all weigh different elements in a different way, which is why there’s no right and wrong in judging art.

Post
#1229936
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Mrebo said:

DrDre, one could argue that the Force was never all about lifting rocks and stuff. So whether ability comes from deliberate practice or just cuz, it doesn’t matter.

(I think that’s a weak excuse for undermining the rules of the Star Wars universe but fits the ‘you’re focusing on the wrong stuff’ argument.)

I would agree, if the development/mastery of these powers, and personal growth/decline weren’t so obviously linked in Lucas’ space saga, but they are. The ST has thrown out the baby with the bath water. It should come as no surprise that Rey is considered by many to be the most bland protagonist in the saga.

Post
#1229931
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

I totally agree with you. Jedi training isn’t about using the force. It is about training the mind. It is about taking a doubter and making them believe. It is about disipline. It is about following the Jedi code. Sure, they teach force skills along the way, probably a prescribed times. They teach a skill and then teach them how to use it responsibly before teaching the next. There is nothing in the PT or OT to indicate that any of these skills are hard. The dialog between Yoda and Luke during the X-wing scene explains it all. Luke can lift an X-wing if he believes he can. The dialog in the PT indicates that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda, even though Yoda is a master and 870 years older. Strength in the force is not dependent on the length of your training, but on your natural ability and your belief that you can do it.

No it isn’t. The creator of this universe and his films say otherwise:

You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years.

It’s one thing to accept a retcon of sorts, it’s another to just deny these concepts exist, and have consistently been applied in the films. Anakin had greater potential than Yoda, but in ROTS it becomes abundently clear potential isn’t everything. As Darth Sidious puts it “Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us”, as in become through training, except that he didn’t, because most of his body was destroyed, and replaced by machines, and he thus never got to live up to that potential. Then there’s Anakin’s own admission to Dooku, when he states, that his powers have doubled since the last time they met. How did they double you ask? Through Jedi training, study, and experience would be my answer. Then there’s the power of the dark side, that Anakin desires, and he states to Palpatine: “Is it possible to learn this power?”. Not from a Jedi is Palpatine’s answer. So, no people don’t figure out these things for themselves in the movies, and are mostly just thought how to use these powers responsibly, or irresponsibly.

Post
#1229917
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

I always thought that having Yoda say ‘size matters not’ was an extremely daring thing for the writers to do, because could potentially break the idea of a Jedi as a videogame character with leveling up and unlocking abilities and whatnot. The Force is a kind of spirituality made manifest in a world. For it to work as such it must be, in a sense, boundless in its potential. I imagined that when Yoda said this the implication was that everyone has the potential for unlimited ability in the Force, since it’s more primal and important than matter. It’s merely the limitations of the mind which keep a person’s abilities in check, which is presumably why the Jedi liked to recruit at such a young age - small children have less mental barriers. When Luke failed to lift the X-wing, Yoda implies that his failure is precisely because of his lifetime of assumptions as to what is possible.

But presumably the lack of assumptions alone is not enough for lifting X-wings. One also has to be conditioned to believe that they can do these things in variance with their own understanding of physical reality. I imagine that this is why mentors are so important - if you have an example for what is possible, you can override those ingrained assumptions much easier.

Based on this, I can see how Rey would be an ideal candidate for ability in the Force. She is constantly looking back to her young childhood and has a strong faith formed over her entire life as she’s waited for her parents to return. Because she’s waiting for them, she has never traveled off planet, even though she is clearly capable of doing so. In fact, she is established as being overqualified for a scavenger’s existence, but because she stays she has known no real failure from inability. Her conception of good and evil is childlike due to her nostalgia and desperate need to return to that state of belonging, to the point where she accepts Maz’s view of the light/dark dichotomy without question and joins the Resistance without a second thought. Her mentor is Kylo Ren, whom she ultimately defeats in both movies. She is a person who has not yet found her limits, not yet known real failure and defeat. This makes her terrifyingly powerful in the Force, but also terrifyingly fragile, for with a single failure she could lose much of her ability.

At least that’s how I would interpret the character. I’m willing to bet JJ doesn’t share this interpretation.

I like your interpretation, except for the fact, that if her desperation of being accepted, of finding a home is her driving force, and she has zero training and experience, she should be extremely vulnerable to manipulation, and temptation. Hence, for her character arc in the ST to work she had to accept Ben Solo’s proposal in my view, and take his hand. In stead RJ seems to waver, and after an extremely interesting dynamic, the best in the film in my view, where black and white become gray for a while, the two characters fall back to their traditional hero and villain roles, and the movie becomes far less interesting, as the Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith battle continues.

Post
#1229892
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

  • what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references, and dialogue in the films, that in my view heavily suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

So, in my view you are right when you say training has little to do with talent, but just like Muhammad Ali had many years of training before he could stand a chance of becoming a world champion, despite his obvious talent, so too must a talented Force user learn and train for many years before he or she can control the Force. To be talented, and to be good at it instantly without any training are two very different things imo.

Post
#1229834
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.

Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.

Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Post
#1229833
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.

How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.

I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.

No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.

You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.

How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.

Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.

That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.

The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.

I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.

Post
#1229826
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.

To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.