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DrDre

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Post
#1280744
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

I am also a bit confused towards Rey’s motivation.

I agree with Don in that Rey wants to belong somewhere. An expected reaction for someone so isolated. Further evidence for this:

  • She is in denial that her family will come in TFA
  • She saves BB8, her only friend possibly ever. Her insistence on getting BB8 to the resistance may be due to he trying to help the only friend she has even known.
  • She never outright helps the resistance. She only wields the lightsaber to save Finn, a friend.
  • She asks Luke to “show me her place in all this”.
  • It seems she only wants to know her parents after she is turned down by Luke. Luke’s grumpiness causes Rey to doubt the Jedi way and ponder about her parents once more (the cave).
  • She then develops a force connection with Ben and comes to believe he may have what she seeks (a place to belong to).

All this is building to Rey taking Ben’s hand.

Why would Rey want to join the Jedi? Luke has done nothing but criticize her. We all know the Jedi way is right, but from her POV she just met this grumpy hermit who doesn’t want her. Why should she care about the Jedi?

It seems Rey’s primary motivation in turning down Kylo is because she has friends in the resistance? Like Finn and BB8? But the entire film has been building up Kylo and Rey’s relationship. As for the “she realizes she does not need a purpose, she can make one herself” well wasn’t that where she was before TFA. On her own with no one?

I think Rey would have been a great character had she taken Ben’s hand and charted us a new, bold direction for TROS.

Now she feels more like a missed opportunity bordering “perfect” which is a shame given how close we were. I hope TROS does the best job they can with Rey- if they provide some clarification on her motivation I think the whole Mary Sue argument will finally be over.

First of all, Rey had no purpose on Jakku besides waiting for her parents to show up and give her one. Being able to take care of yourself does not mean you have a purpose in life. Her life was literally in wait.

This pretty much summarizes the flaws that were built into her character from the first moment she appears on screen. She has no history, character, or purpose. She’s sympathetic, and self-reliant, and that’s about it. She’s literally waiting for whatever the writers decide will be her destiny. She’s a void waiting to be filled. Her character is thus entirely story and plot driven, rather than character driven. Her decisions, and character traits aren’t informed by her history, and experiences.

Post
#1280728
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DarthSchneider said:

OutboundFlight said:

I am also a bit confused towards Rey’s motivation.

I agree with Don in that Rey wants to belong somewhere. An expected reaction for someone so isolated. Further evidence for this:

  • She is in denial that her family will come in TFA
  • She saves BB8, her only friend possibly ever. Her insistence on getting BB8 to the resistance may be due to he trying to help the only friend she has even known.
  • She never outright helps the resistance. She only wields the lightsaber to save Finn, a friend.
  • She asks Luke to “show me her place in all this”.
  • It seems she only wants to know her parents after she is turned down by Luke. Luke’s grumpiness causes Rey to doubt the Jedi way and ponder about her parents once more (the cave).
  • She then develops a force connection with Ben and comes to believe he may have what she seeks (a place to belong to).

All this is building to Rey taking Ben’s hand.

Why would Rey want to join the Jedi? Luke has done nothing but criticize her. We all know the Jedi way is right, but from her POV she just met this grumpy hermit who doesn’t want her. Why should she care about the Jedi?

It seems Rey’s primary motivation in turning down Kylo is because she has friends in the resistance? Like Finn and BB8? But the entire film has been building up Kylo and Rey’s relationship. As for the “she realizes she does not need a purpose, she can make one herself” well wasn’t that where she was before TFA. On her own with no one?

I think Rey would have been a great character had she taken Ben’s hand and charted us a new, bold direction for TROS.

Now she feels more like a missed opportunity bordering “perfect” which is a shame given how close we were. I hope TROS does the best job they can with Rey- if they provide some clarification on her motivation I think the whole Mary Sue argument will finally be over.

I like the sentiment here, but I can’t agree. She absolutely believes in the Resistance and helps them.

In TFA, she fights off stormtroopers and ultimately gets captured by Kylo because she was protecting BB-8 and letting him get back to the Resistance, because the droid was “too important”. The moment her and Kylo finish defeating the Praetorian Guards in TLJ, she was begging Kylo to stop the firing on the Resistance.

Her first words to Luke are “I’m from the Resistance. Your sister Leia sent me. We need your help.” A little later, she’s pitching to Luke the whole dilemma of Kylo Ren getting stronger and the First Order controlling all the major systems within weeks. She definitely wants him to help, as well as to help her find her own answers. When she escapes Kylo at the end of TLJ, she’s gunning down TIE fighters from the Falcon and rescuing the remainder of the Resistance from the cave.

If she takes Ben’s hand at the end of TLJ, then you(maybe not you specifically, but people arguing this) would be saying “What about her friends and her allegiance to the resistance? All she had in her life were her friends and a cause, and she just threw them away because Ben said “join me” one time?” Kylo betraying Snoke was a bold move, but is that enough motivation to convince her to throw away everything she has?

But what is her personal stake in this, her personal motivation? Why does she support the Resistance other than they appear to be “the good guys”. It’s perfectly fine for her to want to help BB-8. It makes her a sympathetic character, but other than being thrust into this story by circumstances, and suddenly being bestowed with magical powers her character has no history or connections beyond the ones established with BB-8, Finn, and Han Solo. She’s a sympathetic blank slate, an avatar for the light side of the Force. If she was a developed character, she would struggle with the powers that were given to her. She would make some bad decisions, and her naivity would have serious consequences, and repercusions. In stead she seems to instinctively make the right decisions, has plot armor, and ultimately ends up being just in time to rescue the remains of the Resistance.

Post
#1280693
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

OutboundFlight said:

I am also a bit confused towards Rey’s motivation.

I agree with Don in that Rey wants to belong somewhere. An expected reaction for someone so isolated. Further evidence for this:

  • She is in denial that her family will come in TFA
  • She saves BB8, her only friend possibly ever. Her insistence on getting BB8 to the resistance may be due to he trying to help the only friend she has even known.
  • She never outright helps the resistance. She only wields the lightsaber to save Finn, a friend.
  • She asks Luke to “show me her place in all this”.
  • It seems she only wants to know her parents after she is turned down by Luke. Luke’s grumpiness causes Rey to doubt the Jedi way and ponder about her parents once more (the cave).
  • She then develops a force connection with Ben and comes to believe he may have what she seeks (a place to belong to).

All this is building to Rey taking Ben’s hand.

Why would Rey want to join the Jedi? Luke has done nothing but criticize her. We all know the Jedi way is right, but from her POV she just met this grumpy hermit who doesn’t want her. Why should she care about the Jedi?

It seems Rey’s primary motivation in turning down Kylo is because she has friends in the resistance? Like Finn and BB8? But the entire film has been building up Kylo and Rey’s relationship. As for the “she realizes she does not need a purpose, she can make one herself” well wasn’t that where she was before TFA. On her own with no one?

I think Rey would have been a great character had she taken Ben’s hand and charted us a new, bold direction for TROS.

Now she feels more like a missed opportunity bordering “perfect” which is a shame given how close we were. I hope TROS does the best job they can with Rey- if they provide some clarification on her motivation I think the whole Mary Sue argument will finally be over.

Excellent post! I agree completely!

Post
#1280647
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

The way you’ve twisted Rey’s story is so ridiculous that I’m honestly sad for you.

It’s not ridiculous, because many people feel this way about Rey, and have expressed this one way or the other. If a significant proportion of viewers feel she’s a poorly developed, and overpowered character, than that’s on the writers, who failed to write a character that resonates with an overwhelming majority of viewers, like many other protagonists we’ve witnessed in the past.

It works both ways. I really don’t understand what you see in such a mediocre character, and nothing I say can convince you otherwise. You speak of her innate goodness, as if that’s a good quality for a fictional character. I don’t get that. She’s not the worst character ever written, but that’s faint praise.

She’s written perfectly fine, but some fans can’t get over the fact that she doesn’t adhere to the same exact journey as the saga’s prior protagonists and they feel that because she doesn’t develop her powers in a way that makes sense according to video game logic that makes her “poorly written.” I think it’s ridiculous to engage with the text that way and ignore everything the films are doing. You can choose to think that I’m ridiculous for thinking that and that’s fine. There’s nothing else to say that hasn’t already been said a thousand times.

You miss the point. As always you like others bring up the strawman, that we want Luke 2.0. We don’t. We want a different journey with depth and layers, and feel the ST’s writers did not provide that. They ignored canon for plot convenience, and provided little to fill the gaping holes they left behind in the service of highly condensed storytelling, and franchise extension, that made this universe feel smaller and less consequential than ever.

Post
#1280645
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

Is there some sort of polling data on that?

People back in 1977 said our beloved heroes were poorly developed too. The circle is now complete!

Let’s just say her character like TLJ has been divisive inspiring memes, politics, and toxicity. The same cannot be said for our beloved heroes, who were never considered the product of high art, but are nevertheless widely praised. I don’t see that happening for Rey, unless JJ pulls something out of his hat. The problem with Rey is, that despite several issues, her character had potential after TFA, but TLJ didn’t develop the few relationships she established in TFA, and her character mostly served as a plot device for Ben Solo and Luke, who became the focal points of the story with better defined and more interesting character arcs.

Post
#1280635
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

The way you’ve twisted Rey’s story is so ridiculous that I’m honestly sad for you.

It’s not ridiculous, because many people feel this way about Rey, and have expressed this one way or the other. If a significant proportion of viewers feel she’s a poorly developed, and overpowered character, than that’s on the writers, who failed to write a character that resonates with an overwhelming majority of viewers, like many other protagonists we’ve witnessed in the past.

It works both ways. I really don’t understand what you see in such a mediocre character, and nothing I say can convince you otherwise. You speak of her innate goodness, as if that’s a good quality for a fictional character. I don’t get that. She’s not the worst character ever written, but that’s faint praise.

Post
#1280632
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

As I’ve stated before when this has come up, she’s looking for for her place in the world. At first she thinks she’s looking for someone to show her her purpose, by the end of TLJ she’s coming to understand that she’ll find her purpose on her own. Everything she does comes down to that and her innate goodness (which are connected, she longs for connection and is isolated but empathetic - look at her saving BB8, empathetic to his plight and ultimately finds kinship with him). Even without building the new Jedi she has still found the place she was looking for with her friends in the Resistance.

Her innate goodness is the problem I have with her. It’s stagnant and boring to me. The combination of innate goodness, and recieving powers from on high removes all chances of development, and choice. She doesn’t choose to commit herself to the hard life and sacrifice Qui-Gon Jinn speaks off in TPM, she just gets bestowed with these powers, and has to deal with it. She doesn’t choose to do the right thing after having faced temptation, she immediately does the right thing, because of her innate goodness. The growth in her character is severely limited by the fact, that she’s already ahead of everyone else morally and in terms her abilities pretty much from the get go. The story of Luke is like the poor guy, who through hard work, struggle, and sacrifice builds his fortune. The story of Rey is like the orphan girl who wins the lotery, and now we have to witness her “struggle” to spent all that money, that she immediately spends wisely from day one, without ever losing control like a normal person would.

Post
#1280618
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

We’ve been over this. Until the end of TLJ, she wasn’t trying to be a Jedi at all. She and Luke are very different.

Yes, but what does she want? In TFA she’s waiting for her family, and has to accept they’re not coming back. She is then forced through circumstance to accept this “gift” of the Force, that she has recieved. In TLJ she has apparently joined the Resistance, and seeks out Luke for council. Luke turns out to be a disappointment, and in her search for answers for the situation she’s been more or less forced into, she gets duped by Snoke in believing, that Ben Solo is the answer for her, and the Resistance. She escapes knowing her parents were drunks, and then having learned her past does not define her, she accepts her destiny to be the next Jedi. On the other hand she doesn’t really have any other purpose or relationships, that define her. Her only friend is Finn, a relationship, that wasn’t further developed in TLJ. All her mentors are dead. She has no history, or lineage. Being a Jedi gives meaning to what would otherwise be an empty existence. By the end of TLJ little remains, but to fulfill the destiny, that was chosen for her by the powers that be.

Post
#1280614
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

No I don’t think it’s just Rey at all. That’s one of the biggest points of the final scene of TLJ, showing that this is a potential that lives in many (random people) throughout the galaxy. I hope TROS delves into this aspect in some regard.

In the larger sense, in terms of what I’m explaining, it’s my interpretation and I think it’s good that it’s left to interpretation. In my mind where Rey gets her powers from doesn’t matter so much as what she chooses to do with them.

Which brings us back to motivation. It’s not just what she does, but why? Luke wanted to leave Tatooine, and join his friends in the Academy. He wanted to know who his father was, and follow in his footsteps. Luke has personal motivations for joining the fight, for wanting to be a Jedi. What is Rey’s motivation going into TROS? Why does she want to be a Jedi? Thusfar it seems, that it is, because the plot has forced her into this position. Her main motivation for going to find Luke, is the powers she recieved from on high. Then Luke disappoints, and she’s convinced through Snoke’s deception, that Ben Solo is the answer for the Resistance. Then that plan awry, she ends up saving the remains of the Resistance, and is now apparently the heir to the Jedi religion. Her entire character development is heavily plot driven, forced into her position in the story by circumstances.

Post
#1280594
Topic
Star Wars Trilogy SE bluray color regrade
Time

Darth Lucas said:

DrDre said:

Here’s the next shot.

Bluray:

Bluray regraded:

This is an unfortunate case of the bluray shot just not being very good. It’s clear so much of the detail was lost in the initial “restoration” process for this shot that brightening it up like that introduces so many ugly artifacts in the shadows.

Yes, it is a rough shot, and I think it was always rough even back in 1977, but fortunately it can be improved with some trickery:

Post
#1280241
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

nl0428 said:

screams in the void said:

this seems like the appropriate place to leave this …https://www.wired.com/story/cantina-talk-84/?fbclid=IwAR1n48i6qvujd1uo5PfHP9akBNWo6EZiB8GdvSQPBdXQqj0EnCXccHBbhxg&mbid=social_fb&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=wired&utm_medium=social&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=facebook be interesting to hear what people think …

I don’t believe this at all. These George Lucas rumors have been spreading for nearly every future Star Wars project.

This is not a rumor. It is fact. Abrams himself has stated, that they consulted Lucas while writing the script for TROS. He is the source in this instance.

Post
#1279574
Topic
Estimating the original colors of the original Star Wars trilogy
Time

UnitéD2 said:

Dr Dre, enjoying your latest regrades, I rethought this thread : it’s a shame that it hasn’t been updated for three years and thus remained on page 17 of the section. So I found useful to bring it back to page 1, if you don’t mind. 😉

I don’t mind 😉.

I know that the color balanced version of TN1’s scan of the Spanish LPP (for many reasons), can’t be considered as an accurate source like the tech prints are. But I still think that, for colors, it is one of the most enticing version I’ve seen. I really love how contrasty (yeah, I know it’s probably too contrasty) and colorful it looks.

Here’s how it can look with a quick single correction.

It would be great if, one day, someone manage to give this color timing to a higher quality source.

Here’s roughly how I would correct it:

Post
#1279014
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

So nothing in TFA indicates that she accepted the call to action?

For me choice is about more than a call to action. It’s about motivation. What’s Rey’s motivation for joining the fight, or wanting to be a Jedi, what is she prepared to do, and sacrifice to succeed? What are the personal consequences for her, if she doesn’t succeed? In my view it should be about more than being instantly endowed with great powers, and almost instantly becoming a hero, because of some innate goodness or something, or that the universe turned you into the foil for Kylo Ren overnight. If we look at the end of TFA, I ask the question why does Rey go to find Luke? It seems her personal motivation seems little more than she’s recieved phenominal cosmic powers, and is in search of guidance. If not for those she would likely still be on Jakku waiting for her family. In many ways Rey’s still an empty vessel without any real personality after two films. I hope that changes with episode IX.

Post
#1278999
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

Touché, but considering how virtuous, and perfect she is, I take back the cosmic lotery statement, and maintain she was chosen to be the hero:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

She is thus her destiny to be the defender of the light, not by choice.

That’s still your interpretation. It was someone’s destiny to defend the light. She made the choice to be that someone.

Little in the films indicate she made a choice to be the defender of the light. She has no motivation to join the fight, or be a Jedi, unlike Luke, who was shown to be bored out of his mind on Tatooine, and wanted to follow in his father’s footsteps, and even then it wasn’t clear whether he would be the hero, or take the quick and easy path. Rey didn’t work for it. It was just, shazam, and she had those powers, and thus became the light to Kylo’s darkness, apparently through the “will of the Force”, or whatever. The original idea behind the first film was, that anyone who put their mind to it, and put in the effort could tap into those powers, and become a Jedi. I don’t see how the ST’s events adhere more closely to this concept, than Lucas’ other films.

Post
#1278997
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

Touché, but considering how virtuous, and perfect she is, I take back the cosmic lotery statement, and maintain she was chosen to be the hero:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

She is thus her destiny to be the defender of the light, not by choice.

Post
#1278994
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

Rey has been chosen. She’s not a random person, or just anyone at the right moment, and the right time. The ST just replaced a genetic lotery with a cosmic lotery. The idea that any person can tap into the Force and be a Jedi through training, and hard work is as foreign to the ST as it was for the PT.

That’s just speculation.

You don’t choose what family your born into, so I don’t see much difference.

And she’s still random either way.

Being chosen and random are two different things. If it were random, some obnoxious smuck might also have recieved those powers.

Post
#1278988
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

Rey has been chosen. She’s not a random person, or just anyone at the right moment, and the right time. The ST just replaced a genetic lotery with a cosmic lotery. The idea that any person can tap into the Force and be a Jedi through training, and hard work is as foreign to the ST as it was for the PT.

Post
#1278902
Topic
Star Wars Trilogy SE bluray color regrade
Time

act on instinct said:

Maybe worth switching over to some other shots at this point? Was helpful at first using the same reference for a while but the slightness between the options can be a little maddening.

The brightness looks a quarter step too high in some places to me, but we all have different displays. I think this has been overall great progress, but I wonder where the rabbit hole ends.

my take:

I haven’t decided yet how bright the image will be. Here’s a less bright and contrasty alternative:

Edit:

I think I prefer this one.