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DrDre

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Post
#1260852
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

hairy_hen said:

Everything looks very yellow/orange now, and too much blue has been taken out of the image. It just doesn’t look right…

The technicolor print is very yellow and warm in its tones. All the technicolor frames I have confirm this, as do the color calibrated photos Mike Verta shared of a projected technicolor print.

Some of my frames:

Three of the Mike Verta photos:

So, although the colors might take some getting used to, I believe they are quite accurate.

Post
#1260768
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

Williarob said:

If this thread is about color correcting 4K77, why are you using the Bluray as your source? I mean, I understand that once it’s corrected you’ll match 4K77 to it, but isn’t that extra work - having to deal with the magenta instead of just adjusting the actual target colors?

That’s why I’m actually not that worried about the magenta, because it won’t show up for 4k77 anyway. The reason I’m using the bluray is 3-fold:

  1. I don’t have access right now to the 4k77 for a few days.
  2. At this stage I’m simply creating reference frames, so it doesn’t really matter what source I’m using.
  3. I will also be using these reference frames to correct the bluray (preferably using Neverar’s color grading as a source), and so I want to also see where the challenges are for those frames, since if the bluray can be done, 4k77 will be a peace of cake.
Post
#1260758
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

I agree. And while I think time will smooth out some of TLJ’s rough edges, I still maintain that Canto Bight, space Leia, and Holdo’s communication issues will go the way of Jar Jar Binks, “I don’t like sand”, and “she’s lost the will to live”. I don’t foresee a ‘fine wine’ scenario with this stuff.

It will be interesting to see if Abrams can make this trilogy seem ‘necessary’ given how conclusively RoTJ ended the series. I think it’ll take more than the current ‘the Empire was defeated and then grew back again’ vibe of the SE to make it feel like an intrinsic part of a 9-film saga.

I think the ST biggest problem is, that it hasn’t provided any story point that underlines the relevance of this trilogy to the larger story, by for example providing a bigger bad guy with strong links to the past. In stead Snoke was turned into a plot device, and his replacement Kylo Ren is essentially presented as a highly emotional bad egg who for some unknown reason was seduced by said plot device, despite growing up in a loving family. As such, there’s very little connective tissue between the first six episodes and the ST other than the idea that sometimes things don’t work out the way you want, and a lot can happen in thirty years, which are hardly compelling story developments. As a consequence there’s good to be found in the moment, and in the way these characters interact, but in terms of the bigger picture it’s pretty muddied. So, Abrams has the difficult task of making this trilogy not just powerful in its own right, but relevant to the saga as a whole.

Post
#1260745
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

Valheru_84 said:

Now that you mention it Catbus there does seem to be a noticeable shift to an overall pink tone felt in the images and you can see the white cloth Han is holding in that same shot has a slightly pink hue to it.

Overall the samples look great even though there is a subtle but noticeable pink cast to it all.

Val

I don’t see any pink cast in the other frames, but the pink in the docking bay shot stems from the bluray:

As Neverar noted, it’s pretty easy to get rid off. I’ll adjust it for the next batches of frames.

Post
#1260638
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

Eh, I think reactions will be different for generations to come who will be able to watch the entire saga one episode after the other. I mean, yeah, they might have expectations between each movie, but the time for them to build up any expectations will be hours/days/weeks rather than years to decades like many of us. Sure, not every kid is going to like it, but there are going to be kids who love it too.

Yes, but that’s precisely my point. TLJ fans in my view erroneously presume the distribution of movie ratings will somehow shift to a higher average, while I’m arguing that it’s more likely the distribution will become less wide around a very similar average. An analysis of the imdb ratings for TLJ show that the mean rating (6.9) and the median (7.0) are almost the same, which is solid evidence that the extremes don’t affect the overall perception of the movie, which stands as above average, but still the least liked saga film after the first two prequels.

Post
#1260630
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

Post
#1260552
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style.

I’m not talking about outliers. What are the extremes have nothing to do with my point. Obviously a significant portion of the fanbase disliked the film (and a significant portion liked it). What’s the majority and what’s the minority doesn’t matter. I just think it’s hard to argue that, in the future, there won’t undoubtedly be more and more fans who fall into the “like” column, as many of the reasons for the dislike fade away.

Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

You’re absolutely right that IX will affect the overall assessment of the trilogy. But again, with the prequels, you ignore my point, which is that there seems to be far more PT fans now than before, whether or not some other fans regard the whole trilogy as a disappointment or not.

There will also be far more films than ever before, so being a Star Wars fan won’t be linked to any specific set of films as it did before. The OT were the only films available for two decades, the PT era lasted for almost 15 years. The ST era will likely not last even half that long. So, unlike the OT and PT the ST will probably not amass a larger following through constant exposure to a single era over a prolonged period of time, as it will be eclipsed by the new kids on the block. As such I don’t see its reputation changing very much aside from dulling both the hatred and the praise as time progresses. The whole ST is just too similar to the OT to stand out from the immense crowd of films and series that will be the future of the franchise.

Post
#1260545
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style. Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

Post
#1260540
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Abrams really robbed us of [the wider galactic situation]. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams.

That’s quite a lot of blame to place on one guy. And sure, his was the cardinal sin of failing to properly establish the relationship between the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance, but these were issues that could have been resolved in a single scene in TFA and which could have just as easily been resolved in TLJ. Instead we are given no explanation for the First Order’s power nor its resilience after their primary base and weapon was destroyed. We are given no explanation for what remains of the Republic, nor of why the Resistance consists of only a few ships at the start of TLJ. As you say, the Republic doesn’t exist in TLJ in any tangible sense, which means that the only real relationship which now exists for the audience is between the First Order and the Resistance.

The setup belongs at the start. ANH set up the civil war and the basic political structure. TPM setup the old republic and the trade federation conflict. ATOC setup the new separatist conflict. TFA setup the First Order and then dwelled on Luke for the rest of the film. Pretty much the focus was on Luke from the crawl to the end. A few lines would not have been out of place to help understand the galactic situation and how wiping out the senate would destroy the Republic. So yeah, I blame Abrams. An explanation doesn’t really belong in the middle chapter for something that happened in the first chapter.

I will reiterate, that Abrams did not destroy the Republic or turn the Resistance into rebels. If anything Abrams at least (not very successfully) tried to keep up the semblance of a different political situation with the FO residing on some ice rock in the unknown regions, and the Resistance the guard dog of the Republic, even though it was pretty obvious that the Empire vs rebels vibe should be maintained. Johnson threw out the window dressing and cemented the whole Empire vs rebels retread, that has once again become the central conflict, even though many other scenerios were possible based on Abrams setup.

Post
#1260479
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

The Last Jedi is a well written and well made movie, and I think that is why many critics like it. The Last Jedi also takes Luke Skywalker, one of the most beloved characters of all time, in some very unexpected directions. Some people find that very refreshing and others find it a travesty, thus the split between fans. I think over time people will appreciate TLJ more.

I agree TLJ is well made with amazing visuals, and generally strong performances (except Hux, who’s just a buffoon in this one), but I’m not sure it is that well written. It’s not badly written, I think, and has plenty of good and sometimes even great elements, but a lot of criticism has been leveled at the rather contrived “slow chase”, which is the backbone of the movie, the tonal issues, the superfluous casino plot, the contrived introduction of DJ into the story, and the whole Poe/Holdo conflict, which relies on characters not communicating for no reason. I mean is a film that has Holdo perform a kamikaze maneuver in a universe, where droids can perform complex tasks really that well written, even if the excitement and visuals distract from this fact? I would say the writing is a rather mixed bag, where the good often outshines the bad. I conjecture the critics liked TLJ, because it is an above average movie with plenty of highlights and surprises when seen in a vaccuum, while the fans are split over the way the film connects to the previous episodes in the saga.

Post
#1260427
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Ah… I finally found something with meat to it. Rather than just recollections, this article did research and pulled up actual fan reactions from TESB in 1980. Sure, today it is the gold standard of Star Wars for many, but what did people think when it was the dark sequel to an insanely popular movie. Well, fan letters published in Starlog reveal a lot of that.

http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/

Reading this I can imagagine if modern social media had existed back then. I still remember my reaction. For the longest time TESB was the movie to watch between the amazing Star Wars and the incredible ROTJ. It was the Star TRek III to II and IV - the middle of a great story. Eventually I came around. But I see that same genius in TLJ. The characters are put through the ringer and come out the other side wiser for the experience. They handed TLJ to a good character writer who took where they started in TFA and carried on the story. It was written before we ever saw TFA. Before fans built up expectations. Lucas always waited until after one film came out to write the next, but the have been on a faster schedule and so TLJ was written when TFA was still in production and a few things about TFA were changed. And the more I look at the presented issues, the more I realize that all the big issues are not with TLJ, but with the setup in TFA that TLJ delivers on what was promised. Han gave us the concise narrative of Luke in TFA and TLJ didn’t deviate at all. This trilogy is driven by the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren. Luke in exile, Leia and Han at odds and back to their old roles, everything was setup by Abrams in TFA.

When you think about May 1980, fans didn’t know what to expect. The had the novel and movie of Star Wars (with the published script to keep the movie fresh in lieu of home video). But in 1979, the got three new Star Wars novels as well as the Marvel comic that kept the story going. What came out in May 1980 was nothing like any of those. Irvin Kershner directed his typical people driven story with a script by the legendary Leigh Bracket with changes by Lawrence Kasdan and the original story by George Lucas. It took he wave of success that Star Wars ended with and dumped the characters into turmoil that didn’t end with the end credits. Many didn’t like the direction. Many didn’t believe that Vader was really Luke’s father. And who was this other Yoda spoke of? It was not the film people expected and they griped about it. There really wasn’t a platform for that voice to drown out the box office results. But it was there. And now we have the ST continuing the story and TLJ is the middle chapter and took a similar character based approach and also ended on a dark note. Though this time a beloved character wasn’t just in carbonite, he was dead. Well, as dead as a Jedi gets in Star Wars since he is expected to be back in the next film. And there were more characters to follow (TLJ has three stories instead of two). But the parallel in reaction is fascinating. And we have one of our own who never took to TESB, at least from what I hear. Mike Verta is a fan of Star Wars - as in the 1977 film only. I’m sure he isn’t alone. But most of us who watched the films when they came out have had our opinions change over time and I’m sure that will happen to TLJ as well. I personally love it and wouldn’t change anything. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, but saying TLJ ruined the saga, that is subverted expectations, that it threw out Abrams mystery boxes, etc. is just the initial reaction. Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

Why would a positive opinion in the absence of IX be any more reasoned than a negative one?

I also don’t really see how a few fan letters in Starlog can really be compared to the avalanche of reviews, analyses, rants, opinion pieces that followed in the wake of TLJ’s release. It’s apples and oranges as far as I’m concerned, and certainly should not be considered as some kind of proof that TLJ will be considered a masterpiece by posterity. Some films with mixed responses will be re-evaluated, or seen in a more postive light, while others won’t.

Post
#1260423
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

I don’t expect everyone to be in the same place, but I did expect an original story, that builds on what previous films established. In stead much of what was built has been broken down to give us something very similar. This might make money sense, since it’s the perfect way to maintain brand recognition by keeping the galaxy locked into an Empire vs rebels state, but in my view it doesn’t make much story sense. Palpatine was unique in the sense, that he alone through cunning was able to destroy a Republic that had stood for at least a thousand years. Snoke is just some random guy, who somehow seduced Ben Solo and essentially rebuilt the Empire in the unknown regions, while the Republic was looking the other way for plot convenience, and used a superweapon to turn back the clock some 35 years. No more explanation required according to the current creators. The fact that such a scenerio is possible, and we can point to real world examples to fill in the blanks, doesn’t mean it makes dramatic or story sense. It just seems like lazy writing, and makes the ST feel tacked on.

It is not just real world examples. Where we were at the end of ROTJ was the death of the Emperor. No more, no less. We have nothing of the story from there to TFA. In TFA, the Hosnian system housing the Republic Senate and the only fleet the new Republic has is destroyed. The First Order has yet to be shown occupying a single planet. We have setup the conflict and there are three players, not two. There is the First Order - the agressive invader. There is the Resistance - in the spirit of the old rebellion who has been trying to keep the First Order out. And then there is the Republic. That has yet to play any role. We don’t know what is left, what the mindset is, who they might side with, or anything. Yes their government and their fleet are gone, but the planets that had joined can reform the government. Some planets might welcome the First Order with open arms, some might fight to the bitter end. We don’t know, but your argument ignores all of them. In the OT, all these planets were part of the Empire. They were occupied. Only a few resisted and helped the Rebellion. The game, while on the surface has some similarity, is different. You are equating the situations in the OT and ST and ignoring the differences. In the OT, the death of the Emperor was a big deal that sealed the fate of the Empire. In the ST, the death of Snoke means nothing to the worlds of the Republic. How those republic worlds react is what will set the Trilogies apart. How the conflict between Rey and Kylo plays out will as well. Your comparison of the two trilogies is over simplistic. Had Lucas been doing this trilogy, I bet the story would be largely the same, but I bet the movies would be shorter and they would have more clues as to the wider galactic situation. Abrams really robbed us of that. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams. And even though I have not read a single add on book that might expound on any of this, I can still see many possibilities and a variety of larger pictures from what we do know (both what was in the films and the few deleted clips). I don’t see it as simple as a reset to exactly what we had in the OT. I can see the similarities in the presented story, but the wider story is very different and the ramifications of that change everything.

It wasn’t Abrams that took the New Republic out of the equation, seemingly gave the FO unlimited resources, and turned the Resistance into rebels again. That was all on Johnson. TFA ended with both the FO and the Republic having suffered major losses in personel and equipment. This left Johnson with a ton of possibilities to take the conflict in any other direction than simply rehashing Empire vs rebels. Guerilla warfare, terrorism, outright chaos, and a race for control of the remaining resources were all possibilities, but Johnson opted for the least original one, where a small band of rebels again has to fight a seemingly insurmountable force. For me personally the moment when the Resistance referred to themselves as rebels for the first time was the moment when I felt something was amiss, and cemented the idea that we would get a “what if” version of the OT rather than an original story.

Post
#1260354
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

I don’t expect everyone to be in the same place, but I did expect an original story, that builds on what previous films established. In stead much of what was built has been broken down to give us something very similar. This might make money sense, since it’s the perfect way to maintain brand recognition by keeping the galaxy locked into an Empire vs rebels state, but in my view it doesn’t make much story sense. Palpatine was unique in the sense, that he alone through cunning was able to destroy a Republic that had stood for at least a thousand years. Snoke is just some random guy, who somehow seduced Ben Solo and essentially rebuilt the Empire in the unknown regions, while the Republic was looking the other way for plot convenience, and used a superweapon to turn back the clock some 35 years. No more explanation required according to the current creators. The fact that such a scenerio is possible, and we can point to real world examples to fill in the blanks, doesn’t mean it makes dramatic or story sense. It just seems like lazy writing, and makes the ST feel tacked on.

Post
#1260288
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

Thanks Val! 😃

Post
#1260281
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

I do, as they inspired Lucas, as did Buck Rogers, which opens THX-1138. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon film, but couldn’t get the rights. For all the Joseph Campbell stuff Lucas cites, he was essentially just doing his own Buster Crabbe serial.

I know, but being inspired by does not have to mean it should become the same, or that turning Star Wars into a Buster Crabbe serial will make it better.

Post
#1260277
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

One could say the same about the three Flash Gordon serials. Ming and his minions just keep coming back for more. 😉

I don’t hold the Flash Gordon serials in as high a regard as Star Wars. I enjoyed the Transformers cartoon in the 80s even though each episode ended with Megatron yelling “retreat!” at the end, but I wouldn’t want Star Wars to follow suit. 😉

Post
#1260273
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

In theory yes, in practise it’s more of the same. TLJ starts with the phrase “The First Order reigns”, and we are subsequently told they will control all major systems in weeks. There’s nothing in TLJ that suggests we’re dealing with a terrorist organisation, whilst everything suggests they are an oppressive force in firm control forcing the last remaining good guys to flee from their base, and ending up reducing them to the size of a football team.

It’s rebels, stormtroopers, X-Wings, Tie-fighters, Death Stars, At-At’s, and throne rooms with an evil Emperor all over again. To me those are not new challenges. They are a variation on what came before. It’s the same cross-roads, where we sometimes make a left in stead of a right, or in many cases feign a left only to go right again in the end.

Post
#1260263
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

What did you want the new movies to be then, romantic comedies?

No, I wanted new stories with new foes, and challenges, not another Empire vs rebels retread, and another Jedi apprentice betraying his master. Been there, done that. Now the victories of the old guard have been undone to give us more of the same. This approach devalues both the victories of the old and the new, since the galaxy can just be reset on a whim and without context or explanation. What will make the probable victory of Rey, Finn, and Poe so special at the end of Episode IX? History tells us that the answer is very little, since another “Emperor” with unlimited resources, stormtroopers, and Tie-fighters can be pulled from behind the curtain to continue the conflict ad nauseum.

Post
#1260258
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

By that definition then, everyone in the entire saga is a loser.

If you consider the fact that we went from liberating the galaxy from tyranny and being in a place of power with the potential to change things for the better, to a handful of people fitting into a tiny spaceship facing almost the exact same tyranny then yes, everyone is a loser.

Post
#1260252
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Life is a series of ups and downs. Not everyone who experiences adversity is a loser.

That’s all good and well, but it doesn’t change the fact that the big three all fell from their pedestals in a major way and a big part of that failure was caused by their own actions. They were obviously the winners at the end of the OT, and through circumstances and their own mistakes let it all slip through their fingers. They lost almost everything they fought for over the course of a trilogy. I think the loser description is quite apt.

Post
#1260247
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.