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DrDre

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Post
#1235154
Topic
Star Wars Resistance
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

It seems the Resistance trailer has not been recieved very well. The like/dislike ratio is 1:2 on youtube. Compare this to the 30:1 ratio for the upcoming Clone Wars season.

I doubt if those clicking like and dislike on YouTube are actually the Target demographic. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Shouldn’t the target demographic be in bed at 10pm? The time it is being broadcast seems to suggest LFM is not aiming this solely at children, although the trailer certainly has somewhat of a childish tone.

No Star Wars show is just for kids. But premiering it at 10 doesn’t magically mean it’s not primarily for kids, which it obviously is.

If it is not solely for kids then those liking or disliking it on youtube are part of the target demographic, and premiering it on a time where only grownups can watch it strongly suggests this is the case. If so, while the show may be primarily for kids, it should still have a broad appeal, and while it’s too early to judge the series on the basis of a trailer, the trailer thusfar seems to have failed to appeal to that broader audience. I’m sure kids will love it though.

Post
#1235149
Topic
Star Wars Resistance
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

It seems the Resistance trailer has not been recieved very well. The like/dislike ratio is 1:2 on youtube. Compare this to the 30:1 ratio for the upcoming Clone Wars season.

I doubt if those clicking like and dislike on YouTube are actually the Target demographic. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Shouldn’t the target demographic be in bed at 10pm? The time it is being broadcast seems to suggest LFM is not aiming this solely at children, although the trailer doesn’t seem to have a broad appeal. So, it’s sending mixed signals in my view.

Post
#1234938
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

It depends what I’m looking for. ROTS has an almost operatic feel to me, and while it still has issues in the execution department, I think overall it has a good story, and great visuals, even if it’s a little too CGI heavy at times. I also think the performances range from acceptable to pretty good. At the same time there’s a part of me that prefers TPM. I think TPM is visually the most appealing, having the best blend of location shooting, traditional effects work, and CGI. I sort of see TPM as Star Wars with lower stakes, and blander characters, but overall still fairly entertaining. I was never really that bothered by Jar Jar as much as some.

Post
#1234775
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

To say there are no consequences to the events in the film is absurdly reductive, and frankly typical of the wilfully and uncharitably misreading “criticism” I’ve seen so much of about this film.

I think what the critic was trying to get at is that the story does its best to deflate its own most interesting ideas. There are obviously consequences and character progression, it’s just that these moments are ultimately not as consequential as we are first led to believe.

Leia is blown out into space, presumably to her death! But wait, she’s using the Force in a way we’ve never seen from her before! Has she had substantial training in those thirty years? Has the Force suddenly ‘awakened’ in her as well, making her the ‘new hope’ for the galaxy that Luke suggested in ROTJ?

No, sorry. It was just an instinctual reaction to her impending death and her Force powers will not be a big factor in the rest of the movie.

Kylo kills Snoke! Now he’s teaming up with Rey against the goofy red guards! Will he really turn to Rey’s side and will they strike out together in a new direction in order to prevent a repeat of Rebels vs Empire that we got in the previous trilogy?

No, sorry. Kylo’s still a bad egg and Rey still has a deep loyalty to the Jedi ideals (despite her teachers hating them) and the Resistance (despite knowing them for maybe a day at most). And it will be a Rebels vs Empire situation quite explicitly until the end of the movie.

You get the idea. The movie goes in some interesting directions, but it seems to make a point of teasing these truly interesting directions and pulling it back to something much more tame.

No, one of the points of this film is that anyone can use the force. Not everyone is powerful enough, but people who are powerful enough can come from anywhere. This is implicit in the PT Jedi code - attachment is forbidden and by extrapolations, so is procreation. That means that none of the powerful Jedi we see came from a long line of Jedi in the family. So if being powerful only runs in the blood, where did all the PT Jedi come from?

I don’t see what this has to do with my point. I don’t really care about Leia’s Force powers, since they don’t really affect the story, but the movie spends its time showing this impressive feat with sweeping wide shots and powerful music as if it has totally changed the game in terms of Leia’s role in the story, only to drop that and have nobody speak of it again. Cut from the bridge explosion to Leia unconscious and nothing is lost from a story perspective.

The movie does go in many interesting directions, but this is the middle chapter and we did not see a resolution to any of them. This lack of resolution leads to this erroneous conclusion that this movie did not further the story. It furthered the characters and changed them. It tackled grander things than the Resistance/Republic/First Order conflict, which it left mostly in limbo.

Are you mistakenly talking about ESB, where the larger war was in limbo? Because in TFA, the First Order was treated as a sort of terrorist fringe organization, whereas in TLJ it all-but rules the galaxy.
Besides, this is again missing the point. The critic is saying that we are first given a very interesting direction which is quickly undermined in favor of a far less interesting direction. It would be like Vader saying ‘I am your father!’ and Yoda later saying ‘Messing with you, Vader was. Your father, he definitely isn’t’ and that being that.

And we know from ROTJ that Leia is strong in the force and like her brother in TESB (who grabbed his light saber with no known training of doing that) she grabbed a ship and in keeping with the laws of physics, she moved not the ship. Rey, Leia, and the boy at the end show us that anyone can use the force, from a Skywalker to a stable boy.

That’s all very nice, but again, what does it have to do with anything? We already assumed that Leia had the capability of doing what Luke could do (even if it was left undeveloped). Why would Rian bother to show us what we already assume unless these powers are called upon later in the movie? Luke and his lightsaber is a set up for the duel with Vader, where he is now able to pull himself up out of the Carbonite pit. It shows the progression of his skills. Leia’s ability is one-and-done.

A movie experience is more than just moving to the next plot point in a straight line.

Good luck explaining that to Star Wars fans.

Yeah, I know…us critics are real dummies. I don’t like them foreign movies either, because them talk funny…

😉

I may disagree with your points at times but I do respect the time you take to make them. I also get that you are passionate about SW. That being said, a lot of criticisms I read about TLJ reflect the kind I responded to initially here.

😃

Post
#1234748
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

To say there are no consequences to the events in the film is absurdly reductive, and frankly typical of the wilfully and uncharitably misreading “criticism” I’ve seen so much of about this film.

I think what the critic was trying to get at is that the story does its best to deflate its own most interesting ideas. There are obviously consequences and character progression, it’s just that these moments are ultimately not as consequential as we are first led to believe.

Leia is blown out into space, presumably to her death! But wait, she’s using the Force in a way we’ve never seen from her before! Has she had substantial training in those thirty years? Has the Force suddenly ‘awakened’ in her as well, making her the ‘new hope’ for the galaxy that Luke suggested in ROTJ?

No, sorry. It was just an instinctual reaction to her impending death and her Force powers will not be a big factor in the rest of the movie.

Kylo kills Snoke! Now he’s teaming up with Rey against the goofy red guards! Will he really turn to Rey’s side and will they strike out together in a new direction in order to prevent a repeat of Rebels vs Empire that we got in the previous trilogy?

No, sorry. Kylo’s still a bad egg and Rey still has a deep loyalty to the Jedi ideals (despite her teachers hating them) and the Resistance (despite knowing them for maybe a day at most). And it will be a Rebels vs Empire situation quite explicitly until the end of the movie.

You get the idea. The movie goes in some interesting directions, but it seems to make a point of teasing these truly interesting directions and pulling it back to something much more tame.

No, one of the points of this film is that anyone can use the force. Not everyone is powerful enough, but people who are powerful enough can come from anywhere. This is implicit in the PT Jedi code - attachment is forbidden and by extrapolations, so is procreation. That means that none of the powerful Jedi we see came from a long line of Jedi in the family. So if being powerful only runs in the blood, where did all the PT Jedi come from?

I don’t see what this has to do with my point. I don’t really care about Leia’s Force powers, since they don’t really affect the story, but the movie spends its time showing this impressive feat with sweeping wide shots and powerful music as if it has totally changed the game in terms of Leia’s role in the story, only to drop that and have nobody speak of it again. Cut from the bridge explosion to Leia unconscious and nothing is lost from a story perspective.

The movie does go in many interesting directions, but this is the middle chapter and we did not see a resolution to any of them. This lack of resolution leads to this erroneous conclusion that this movie did not further the story. It furthered the characters and changed them. It tackled grander things than the Resistance/Republic/First Order conflict, which it left mostly in limbo.

Are you mistakenly talking about ESB, where the larger war was in limbo? Because in TFA, the First Order was treated as a sort of terrorist fringe organization, whereas in TLJ it all-but rules the galaxy.
Besides, this is again missing the point. The critic is saying that we are first given a very interesting direction which is quickly undermined in favor of a far less interesting direction. It would be like Vader saying ‘I am your father!’ and Yoda later saying ‘Messing with you, Vader was. Your father, he definitely isn’t’ and that being that.

And we know from ROTJ that Leia is strong in the force and like her brother in TESB (who grabbed his light saber with no known training of doing that) she grabbed a ship and in keeping with the laws of physics, she moved not the ship. Rey, Leia, and the boy at the end show us that anyone can use the force, from a Skywalker to a stable boy.

That’s all very nice, but again, what does it have to do with anything? We already assumed that Leia had the capability of doing what Luke could do (even if it was left undeveloped). Why would Rian bother to show us what we already assume unless these powers are called upon later in the movie? Luke and his lightsaber is a set up for the duel with Vader, where he is now able to pull himself up out of the Carbonite pit. It shows the progression of his skills. Leia’s ability is one-and-done.

A movie experience is more than just moving to the next plot point in a straight line.

Good luck explaining that to Star Wars fans.

Yeah, I know…us critics are real dummies. I don’t like them foreign movies either, because them talk funny…

Post
#1234681
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

I disagree. The expectation that Vader will kill Luke follows from the way his character is set up from the get go, namely he is the villain, and murderer of Luke’s father. The fact that he IS Luke’s father thus comes as a complete surprise. Kylo Ren has already been set up as the villain, and thus the twist, that he still is the villain after Rey and Kylo dispatch Snoke’s guards isn’t much of a reveal or surprise. Thus the movie ends where it started with Rey still the hero, and Kylo Ren still the villain having replaced Snoke, who’s treated as little more than a plot device. The author of the article is thus correct in my view, when he states that a lot happens, but with little consequences other than Kylo Ren replacing Snoke who TLJ largely makes redundant.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

Yes, and so Luke’s reputation is back to what it was before TLJ, that of a legend, which is the main criticism of the author. RJ shakes things up, and a lot happens in the story, but ultimately we more or less end up, where we started with the Resistance/rebels on the run from the FO, despite having won a symbolic victory (SKB’s destruction in TFA), Ben Solo has reaffirmed his villain status (which he also did in TFA by killing his father), Rey’s still a hero having learned to let go of her past (a lesson also given to her by Maz in TFA, when she tells her her parents aren’t coming back), and Luke’s back to being the legend he was after the defeat of the Empire.

Post
#1234372
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

screams in the void said:

George was quoted as saying in 2012 , " Why should I make more when everyone yells at you and says what a terrible person you are ?"…granted , he came back after the Disney merger ,had a meltdown , then came to acceptance and then came back to support all the subsequent productions .I watched Mark Hamill’s ceremony for his star on the walk of fame earlier this year and George Lucas and Harrison Ford attended , an interviewer asked Lucas about Star Wars and he said he had nothing to say . I think he is still going through the stages of grief. He did say it was like a divorce after all . Also . on the subject of Jar Jar , Ahmed best has started doing some field notes on the backlash of his character , seems he feels George could have stuck up for him a bit more …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRD_SfIbwE

Maybe Lucas should have taken a deeper look at why the fans were yelling at him and saying what a terrible person he was? Maybe he should have more open to the idea that (gasp!) he could have made mistakes that led to the fan hate. The thing is, he could made a lot of the fan hate go away by doing one simple thing: give the oot the release it deserves.

Ah, so the abused should ask himself or herself, why he or she deserves to be abused, rather than expect respectful discourse?

Lucas is not a battered wife.

Kelly-Mary Tran, and Ahmed Best are not battered wifes… I don’t see how that has anything to do with toxic behaviour towards creators of a work for not getting what you want.

Some people simply deserve fan toxicity for not agreeing with said fans’ points of view.

When you don’t want to give the oot the release it deserves, don’t be surprised if toxicity occurs.

When you make a film like TLJ, and don’t give a character like Luke Skywalker the send-off he deserves, don’t be surprised if toxicity occurs. Seems like a pretty poor excuse for behaving in an obnoxious manner. Toxicity should be rejected in all its forms, and not only if it serves your own objectives.

In my view fan toxicity is not solved by pointing the finger at others, but by looking in the mirror.

So why shouldn’t Lucas be looking in the mirror?

Maybe he should, but as far as I can tell Lucas was operating within his rights as a creator, and copyright holder. We can disagree with his point of view, and try to convince the powers that be of our own, but that’s as far as it goes in my view.

Post
#1234368
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

There’s no objective truth in this situation, only opinions and factors that can be weighed differently depending on each individual, which include film history and preservation, but also Lucas’ rights as the creator of his works, and a whole bunch of other stuff including Lucas’ relationship with the fans. You weigh them one way, Lucas weighs them another way. Lucas has openly stated: “Why would I make any more [Star Wars movies], when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?” In other words Lucas didn’t want to make new Star Wars movies at the time, because of fan toxicity.

The fan toxicity existed due to the bad decisions Lucas made, that isn’t too far fetched either.

That’s all nice and well, but the entire premise behind taking a stand against toxic fandom, is that there is no excuse for such reprehensible behaviour, and that includes not seeing your favourite movies released. The basis for this forum as I see it, is to make a case in favour of releasing the OOT in a respectful manner, based on well thought out arguments, not to hurl abuse at Lucas or anyone else who refuses to give in to our demands.

Post
#1234365
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Warbler said:

screams in the void said:

George was quoted as saying in 2012 , " Why should I make more when everyone yells at you and says what a terrible person you are ?"…granted , he came back after the Disney merger ,had a meltdown , then came to acceptance and then came back to support all the subsequent productions .I watched Mark Hamill’s ceremony for his star on the walk of fame earlier this year and George Lucas and Harrison Ford attended , an interviewer asked Lucas about Star Wars and he said he had nothing to say . I think he is still going through the stages of grief. He did say it was like a divorce after all . Also . on the subject of Jar Jar , Ahmed best has started doing some field notes on the backlash of his character , seems he feels George could have stuck up for him a bit more …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRD_SfIbwE

Maybe Lucas should have taken a deeper look at why the fans were yelling at him and saying what a terrible person he was? Maybe he should have more open to the idea that (gasp!) he could have made mistakes that led to the fan hate. The thing is, he could made a lot of the fan hate go away by doing one simple thing: give the oot the release it deserves.

Ah, so the abused should ask himself or herself, why he or she deserves to be abused, rather than expect respectful discourse? Some people simply deserve fan toxicity for not agreeing with said fans’ points of view. Sorry Kelly-Mary Tran, you shouldn’t have accepted a role in that travesty!

In my view fan toxicity is not solved by pointing the finger at others, but by looking in the mirror.

Post
#1234363
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Warbler said:

Sorry, but I don’t buy the idea that the fans are to blame. Lucas made bad changes when he did the SE. Lucas made bad movies when he made the PT. These things are Lucas’ fault, not the fans. But worst of all was his stubborn arrogant ego driven decision to refuse to treat the oot properly and give it the release it deserves.

Passing blame, a good basis for any relationship. As allways things are a little more complicated in reality. For one a lot of fans like, if not love the SE and the PT. It’s not Lucas’ fault you are not in their camp, a camp that seems to be growing with each year. The SE has now been available in a modern format longer than the OOT, which is slowly becoming a distant memory sadly. There’s no objective truth in this situation, only opinions and factors that can be weighed differently depending on each individual, which include film history and preservation, but also Lucas’ rights as the creator of his works, and a whole bunch of other stuff including Lucas’ relationship with the fans. You weigh them one way, Lucas weighs them another way. Lucas has openly stated: “Why would I make any more [Star Wars movies], when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?” In other words Lucas didn’t want to make new Star Wars movies at the time, because of fan toxicity. It isn’t too farfetched, to infer that the same fan toxicity may have been a factor (along with a number of other factors) in his refusal to release the OOT.

Post
#1234358
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

SilverWook said:

I think Lucas had his mind made up long before anyone uttered Han shot first. The marketing hook back in 1995 was One last time.
https://youtu.be/V9077YR0t9E

Sure, but what happened in 2006? I also read a comment a while ago by a person who had worked on the 2004 master, that Lucas did consider also restoring the OOT back then, but ultimately didn’t because of time constraints related to the DVD release date. So, while I believe Lucas allways intended to phase out the OOT, I think he wasn’t completely opposed to restoring the OOT at some point, but after all the negative feedback and often personal attacks in response to the SE and PT stuck his feet in the sand, because he wasn’t going to let some angry abusive fans dictate what’s going to happen anymore than the studios whos meddling he worked so hard to avoid.

Post
#1234356
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

I think it all boils down to how we engage with fans and people in general. It’s allways tempting to cross the line from respectful to disrespectful behaviour in order to “win” the debate, or to vent frustration. I’ve crossed that line a number of times myself, first with Frink, where I inadvertently insulted him and his family, because I wanted to “win” the discussion. Then there was the spat with oojason, where I vented my frustration by attacking his moderation of the forum. It’s just choosing the wrong path to address issues, that might also have been resolved in a respectful manner.

Let’s also not forget that respect goes both ways. If a person promotes diversity, and wants to empower women, that doesn’t automatically imply they hate men. At the same time if a person is conservative, and wants to preserve a certain subculture, that doesn’t automatically imply they hate women. Using the example of the “Mary-Sue” debate, respect imo means saying to someone who’s offended by that word: “Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you, I’ll try to phrase my arguments differently”. However, it also means saying to the user of the phrase: “Sorry, I should have realized you didn’t mean to offend, and I will not judge you for using that phrase in the future”. Respect does not mean “my way or the highway”. Too often the reaction in such debates is: “Screw the other side. I will use the phrase as often as I like, and throw it in an extra time to troll”, or “Screw the other side. I will not engage with anyone using that phrase, because I feel the phrase is bad, and so anyone using it is an *******.”

When I stated I wear my TLJ shirt proudly, I meant it, not because I love TLJ, but because I love Star Wars, and TLJ is a part of that. Just like with people I accept the “bad” with the good. It’s just so petty to mock others for liking things you don’t like, or vice versa. If someone feels the PT is better than the OT, good for them. If someone prefers the SE over the OOT that’s great too. Rather than to just focus on why you dislike a certain movie, lets not forget there are millions of kids out there who got their minds blown by TLJ, and became Star Wars fans because of it, just like the PT and the OT before it, and that’s awesome. I can’t help but believe, that at least part of the reason the OOT wasn’t restored by Lucas, is because of fan toxicity. Lucas of course also had his own reasons, but I think toxic behaviour following the release of the SE, and the PT strengthened his resolve in this regard. That’s why I still hope that one day Lucas will be able to see a fan restoration like Legacy, and say to himself, I never knew the original film could look this good, let’s get this out there. That would bring things full circle for me.

Post
#1234036
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

That’s fine, and I would be interested to know why you love it so much. I consider TLJ to be a mixed bag of some great ingredients, and plenty of undercooked ones. Overall it’s a visually stunning, somewhat bloated, but entertaining movie in my view when seen on its own terms, but the worst Star Wars movie to date for me on a number of levels. However, I do think we’ve not seen enough positive critical analysis of TLJ in this thread.

Post
#1233887
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

Unless a post or comment is clearly sexist, and or racist, invoking sexism, and racism consistently in arguments, in this case pertaining to the quality of a set of movies, whether directly or by association seems to me like a rather cheap way to invalidate an opinion you disagree with by effectively claiming to have the moral highground in the debate. I’m reminded of Godwin’s law in this instance. As an online discussion on the merits of Disney’s Star Wars movies grows longer, the probability of an accusation of sexism, and or racism approaches 1…

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#1233870
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

https://medium.com/@timothymably/the-last-jedi-is-poor-storytelling-d22e45427278

In the second link the writer gives his thoughts on how TLJ could have been improved, largely hinging on the idea, that Rey’s parents were among those that betrayed Luke along with Ben Solo, and Luke was forced to kill her parents in the ensuing fight. The writer cleverly provides Rey with strong motivations for joining the dark side to avenge her parents, whilst also providing a backstory for Snoke, that ultimately sheds a light on Luke’s Jedi teachings, that in his version of events rejected much of the Jedi dogma in favour of building on Luke’s own experiences redeeming his father (going so far as to hide the ancient Jedi texts from his students), which was then used by Snoke to tempt the young Jedi students with false promises of learning the true Jedi faith. It is actually a pretty good read, and to me highlights several of the story issues, and the lack of proper character motivations, that imo plague TLJ:

https://medium.com/@timothymably/reimagining-the-last-jedi-luke-killed-reys-parents-2ec7f32aa729

Post
#1233686
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

It is silly to think that there are only conscious sexists and those who aren’t sexist at all. It’s a spectrum.

Yes, but it is just as silly to assume liberal view points and intolerance are mutually exclusive (not directed at you personally). There are extremists left and right, and extremism and intolerance go hand in hand.