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DrDre

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Join date
16-Mar-2015
Last activity
7-Dec-2019
Posts
3,600

Post History

Post
#1309405
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

John Doom said:

DrDre said:

Don’t know how this guy did his captures

😦 I hope you don’t mean me, I just took them from moonization’s videos. Glad I was wrong with their actual look, though. Still I wonder how the first screenshot of the rock in space actually looks like.

No, it’s not you. It’s the videos, which don’t look like they’re supposed to. Not that there aren’t wonky shots in the new master color wise, but it’s faithful to the theatrical look, and mostly a huge step up from the bluray. Here’s the space shot:

Post
#1309396
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

John Doom said:

:\ I thought the OT couldn’t look uglier than on dvd/blu-ray, but Disney somehow succeded in making it look even worse!

Raw special effect, not properly lit:

Paint it green! 😛

Here brightness is so high you can see this special effect’s corners:

Contrast is so bland you can see Luke’s hair and face don’t cast natural shadows under strong and direct sunlight:

Green-headed Leia! 😄

P.S.: I think I’ll stick with Harmy’s versions 😛

Don’t know how this guy did his captures, but these screenshots don’t look anything like the actual films. Just one example, no green:

Leia’s hair isn’t green either for the D+ version. The shot looks perfectly natural.

Post
#1306956
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Chewielewis said:

Your eyes are great at white balancing. You look at something that is “white” and your brain will make it so.

I do have to disagree with Dr. Dres approach with TV settings. I have my TV set to appropriate settings for Dolby Vision and while every other film looks fine, these films are definitely undersaturated. Re tuning your TV should not be the solution here.

The problem here is, that no two TVs are the same, and so the “appropriate” settings for Dolby Vision will only give you the factory standard, which is flawed at best, especially considering no TV exists, that can really take full advantage of Dolby Vision’s capabilities. Then there’s the fact, that each film is graded differently, and so without some objective standard, there really is no right or wrong setting. Hence “each film looks fine” is just a matter of opinion. So, in my view there’s no other way then to tune the TV to some objective standard, or your own personal taste. The OT films are less vibrant than other films, but that is to be expected, and none of the films were super saturated on the big screen to begin with. In my case my TV settings are such that the colors for the OT look very natural for a film from the 1970s and 1980s, better than I’ve ever seen them in fact, but not undersaturated, while other more modern films are more saturated, but not excessively so, and also look natural.

Post
#1306893
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

pat man said:

DrDre can you look at AOTC again since you made adjustments to your display. Although nowhere near as atrocious as the Blu-rays teal shift, I’m still seeing a light teal shift. It now looks like a cross between the DVD and Blu-ray.
I’m still watching the 1080p Hd D+ as I don’t have any 4k tech yet.
Thanks.

Having looked at the PT in general, my conclusion is, that TPM looks the worst, and ROTS looks the best. TPM has more DNR applied to it, and its colors are more contrasty, and saturated than any of the other films. I was surprised how orange the faces are in the scene, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon discuss Anakin being a vergence. Overall I think this transfer is somewhat subpar, compared to other films based on a 2K DI. I was suprised how good AOTC looks, given it was filmed with 1st generation digital cameras. If a teal effect was applied to the HDR color grading, it was done very conservatively, and with good taste imo. Skies generally look pretty natural. ROTS is pretty much comparable to a modern day transfer, based on a 2K DI. The colors on AOTC and ROTS are a bit more saturated than the OT, but I think it fits the material. The HDR color grading in my view improves the blend of practical and digital effects, particulary for AOTC.

Post
#1306781
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Jay said:

DrDre said:

4throck said:

“In this case I optimized the display for HDR content in general, which always appeared somewhat dark, flat, and desaturated on my TV screen, compared to SDR content even if the dynamic range was obviously increased.”

The problem is that most people have their TVs set with very high SDR brightness levels.
At least for me the recommended SDR brightness of 100 to 200 nits (according to sources, most mention 100) is just too dark…

So yes, HDR will look dark in comparison, but that’s how it was mastered…

I don’t have my SDR set to very high brightness levels. I don’t like high contrast, brightness and saturation on my TV. I set the colors to a natural profile for SDR content, which generally means I have ro adjust, since most TVs by default go for high contrast, and punchy colors.

What do you use to calibrate your display?

For my own viewing pleasure, I optimize my TV to my personal preferences, so I wouldn’t call it calibrating.

Post
#1306768
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

4throck said:

“In this case I optimized the display for HDR content in general, which always appeared somewhat dark, flat, and desaturated on my TV screen, compared to SDR content even if the dynamic range was obviously increased.”

The problem is that most people have their TVs set with very high SDR brightness levels.
At least for me the recommended SDR brightness of 100 to 200 nits (according to sources, most mention 100) is just too dark…

So yes, HDR will look dark in comparison, but that’s how it was mastered…

I don’t have my SDR set to very high brightness levels. I don’t like high contrast, brightness and saturation on my TV. I set the colors to a natural profile for SDR content, which generally means I have ro adjust, since most TVs by default go for high contrast, and punchy colors.

Post
#1306743
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Cobra Kai said:

@Dr Dre - it’s a little sad to see those shots, knowing its the crap SE’s that I’ll never watch again. Not saying the new transfers are perfect, but if those were the OOT’s I’d finally be content.
Unfortunately I’ve now begun to have a little hope again that they could still release them when the supposed 4k discs come out next year. Just setting myself up for further disappointment I guess…

While I would obviously very much like to see an OOT release, I probably disliked the revisionist color grading even more than the changes. At least these versions look like the Star Wars I remember 95% of the time. So, from my perspective the OOT has finally been 95% restored to its former glory. Now for the remaining 5%…

Post
#1306742
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Jay said:

DrDre said:

Turns out the problem with washed out colors, and a flat image is at least partly caused by the HDR settings on the display device. HDR can look radically different from one device to the other (there are no real standards for HDR)

I hear this said frequently and it’s partially true, especially on the display side of things. There are standards for creating HDR content (like the EOTF curve), but there are few guidelines for translating that data for display. If video is mastered with a peak nit level of 4000 and the display can’t actually hit 4000 nits (none of them can at this point I think), the display has to tone map the image to fit within the display’s dynamic range, at which point it comes down to the manufacturer’s goals and philosophy. They can either maximize dynamic range (render all the highlight detail while reducing average brightness) or sacrifice some dynamic range to maintain average brightness levels (have a high average brightness and crush some highlight detail). But since we’re talking about Dolby Vision here, that means these decisions are being made in the material itself rather than the display (unless the display doesn’t support Dolby Vision and it falls back to the HDR10 layer).

Are you optimizing your display with settings specific to the OT or are you referring to general optimizations for all HDR content? This is a case where I think Sony’s approach in their consumer displays is the right one; you calibrate the display for SDR, then the display performs the necessary calculations and adjustments to render HDR content.

Your screenshots do look great, so I might sign up just to check out these transfers.

Fang Zei said:

Jay said:

HDTVTest evaluates the OT and ST in HDR on Disney+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGZmMjPJiAk

Vincent of HDTVTest is a respected reviewer and display calibrator. He doesn’t get into color grading or anything like that, but it’s an interesting look into whether the OT on Disney+ is true HDR or just some contrast tweaks (spoiler: it’s not real HDR).

I wonder how much of the issue is “fake HDR.” They may have simply intentionally graded it that way, giving it a restrained HDR pass. It may also be that there isn’t a whole lot of dynamic range to squeeze out of the camera negatives at this point, if there ever was to begin with.

But if I had to guess, I’d say that even if they could have gotten more HDR “pop” they still chose not to, if only so that the OT would still recognizably look like the OT. For all the time they’ve spent keeping the OOT buried, Lucasfilm sure seems to be striving for authenticity as far as the color and contrast goes.

It’s possible, but as soon as you watch film that was intended for a large screen in a dark room at 16fL transferred to a digital medium for viewing on a consumer display calibrated for 100 nits (~30fL, and that’s conservative), it no longer looks like projected film anyway. I can appreciate wanting to maintain the aesthetic (I watched the Criterion edition of Scanners back in October, and it looked about as close to film as you can possibly get on video, and I loved it), but we are talking about movies with glowing laser swords, laser pistols, gleaming golden robots, and big explosions in this case.

It’s also important to note that the goal of HDR (“High Dynamic Range”) isn’t necessarily eye-searing brightness levels, but high peak brightness (which would be seen sparingly in the objects noted above) with extra dynamic range for everything else. This is where Dolby Vision (and I suppose HDR10+) shines, allowing adjustments on a scene-by-scene basis.

I think Vincent’s key point isn’t that we get lower peak brightness, but that it’s indicative of reduced dynamic range.

In this case I optimized the display for HDR content in general, which always appeared somewhat dark, flat, and desaturated on my TV screen, compared to SDR content even if the dynamic range was obviously increased. So, I now have two customized profiles on my TV, one for SDR, and one for HDR content.

Post
#1306684
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Turns out the problem with washed out colors, and a flat image is at least partly caused by the HDR settings on the display device. HDR can look radically different from one device to the other (there are no real standards for HDR), and after optimizing my TV settings, I can now report, that at least the 4K HDR transfer of the OT looks quite stunning, with great detail and color, and is actually suprisingly faithful to the 1997 SE prints. Just to get an idea of what the 4K color grading looks like with these optimized HDR settings, here are a few photos I made of my screen (the image is less contrasty and saturated in reality, but so are photos of a 35mm screening, so you’ll get the idea):

Post
#1305671
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

pleasehello said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t understand how George Lucas is getting all the breaks now for his “originality” while Rian Johnson is hated for doing exactly what haters of TFA asked.

This is what RJ possibly “ruined” about Star Wars:

  • Luke’s ultimate fate is sit around moaning about his failure before he returns to form and sacrifices himself.
  • You can now hyperspace attack.
  • Animal cruelty exists in Star Wars.

Compared to the PT:

  • Anakin wasn’t a brave warrior, he was a creep.
  • The Jedi were idiots.
  • Padmé died of a broken heart.
  • Stormtroopers are clones of Boba Fett’s father.
  • There’s a ton of weird names.
  • It’s potentially racist (likely accidental).
  • The Jedi Purge happened in a day.
  • Anakin built C-3PO and knew R2.
  • Anakin knew about Uncle Owen but never checked up on him.

Yes, TLJ is way worse than the PT! /s I can see the argument TFA is the worst one, although I beg to differ, but I don’t understand how RJ gets SW worse than GL.

George Lucas has definitely been getting a rose-tinted-glasses treatment lately. Undeservedly so, in my opinion. Credit for creating and directing the original Star Wars, but beyond that his work really hasn’t been very good. Just think how boring the Empire Strikes Back would have been if it were written and directed by George Lucas.

Here is the problem with that line of thinking. The Lucas that created the OT, the Indiana Jones trilogy, amongst other things, is not the same guy who created the PT many years later. People change. That doesn’t invalidate their past achievements. Just look at the 4th Indy film. That was directed by Spielberg, but despite this fact, wasn’t able to recapture the magic of the past. Does this make Spielberg a hack, or should the quality of his past work be credited to his collaborators? Should we list all the boring self-important songs written by once great aging song writers, who in their prime wrote the soundtracks of our youth, and past generations? Lucas deserves all the credit for the classics he created along with the collaborators he chose to work with. He was and is one of the great visionary filmmakers of the 20th century, and even his less than stellar prequels have been influencial on a purely technical level. As fun and engaging as the Disney era may be to many, we should not forget, that the current creators do not develop these films and series from whole cloth. As irked as some may still be about Lucas and his PT & SE the current creators have only grown so tall by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Post
#1305648
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

adywan said:

DrDre said:

adywan said:

DrDre said:

The new masters are now also on google play/youtube.

Not in the UK they’re not. Still the 2011 digital versions.Just found that out the hard way. 😦 That’s £10 i’m not getting back

They will be changed to the new master automatically. That happened to me. Yesterday they still were the 2011 versions, today they’ve been replaced.

But isn’t this likely to happen only in areas that have got Disney+?

That’s possible, although it could just be that the rolling out will take a little time. For example up till yesterday I could only watch the 4K versions on Disney+ with a VPN, because here in The Netherlands we still had the 2011 versions. Then yesterday they were suddenly replaced by the new master, and available in 4K HDR, while today they were added to google/youtube here. So, it might become available in the UK via digital services in the next few days, even though Disney+ will take a little longer.

Post
#1305629
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

adywan said:

DrDre said:

The new masters are now also on google play/youtube.

Not in the UK they’re not. Still the 2011 digital versions.Just found that out the hard way. 😦 That’s £10 i’m not getting back

They will be changed to the new master automatically. That happened to me. Yesterday they still were the 2011 versions, today they’ve been replaced.

Post
#1305495
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Mocata said:

DrDre said:

Having just watched the Mandalorean, which was graded by the same colorist as the OT, I can see what they are going for. It’s revisionist, but in a less radical way.The Mandalorean is awesome by the way.

Would you say they are putting everything in line with the grading of Rogue One? Standardising / flattening the colors…

Yes, I think so. The Mandalorean in particular has a very barren look to it. I think the Star Wars movie/tv universe will look more gritty from now on.

Post
#1305451
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

Has anyone checked against the stills pulled from the Reliance reel that started this thread so many years ago? I know the obvious assumption is that it’s their work, but it might be worth confirming.

It’s no use comparing it to the Reliance reel, since that reel had not been color graded. The colors that are seen on the reel are an internal color correction by Reliance.