DrDre

Ronster said:

I am not trolling.

Look everything I watch Star wars on, It does not look like other films do.

If we go back to say bullitt for instance the actors and actresses don’t have red or overtly red faces in star wars they do. I could compare star wars to a lot of other films and when you compare star wars to other films it certainly looks to me that the problem is Star Wars not my monitor.

So when i hue shift in VLC it might be slight it might have to be a fair amount it makes it look more like a normal film. I am happy with the result of the shifting primarily to rid the film of the weid facial color and make it sjmilar to other films.

Star Wars stands out as having a color shift problem compared to other films in a quite serious way. It is’nt to say it does not happen in other films also as I have already stated but Star Wars has a pretty severe case of it and correcting for that makes it feel much more normal and not so strange.

I like the simplicity of the handling it in such a way and I also think the result is good, I personally really like the result.

Green / Cyan in the shadow seems to be a trait I am noticing about the film. But to be honest I am not looking at it at all right now as I have been doing quite a big job this week.

Yes, but the problem here is:

1. Star Wars has many transfers, each with their own unique characteristics, and each of them not an accurate representation of how the film looked in cinemas. So, to state Star Wars in general has a hue shift problem is a rather bold claim.
2. The VLC filter is about as crude as it gets. You attempt to fix one issue, and a dozen others pop up. Just adding more green to the film solely based skin tones, which can vary greatly from person to person is a mistake. Just because skin tones may be overly red, doesn’t mean all other tones are red shifted as well. In fact the opposite may be true, oranges may come out more red in a transfer, whilst yellows may become more green. A correction that just adds green will seemingly improve the skin tones, whilst worsening color shifts in other areas of the frame.
3. Some of the issues you raise may have nothing to do with hue, but with contrast or saturation.

Ronster said:

towne32 said:

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

You know in Star Wars where the actors have really red faces… That is what i am talking about.

Without monitor calibration you don’t know whether those red faces are caused by your source or your setup, and to what extend. You say you don’t need calibration, because the problem is in the file, but this is nonsense. You never accurately see the file without calibration. You see the file through the filter of your setup. In the worst case your correcting for some bias in your setup, which will skew the colors in the opposite direction, namely green. Some here have remarked your corrections are too green and too dark, and I agree with them. This may be your preference, but it’s more likely a problem with your setup.

fmalover said:

UnitéD2 said:

Ronster said:

Ok un-jaundice it at least it does more or less match now. The fist 2 better than the last 2.

I tried :

OK, I don’t know if I have different tastes but I don’t like Dre’s regrades. They look kinda flat and dull, but UnitéD2’s regrade with the orange tint looks just right.

That looks extremely oversaturated to me.

Ronster said:

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Yes, they are from the same source.

Ronster said:

no I agree the film itself restored was combined with the special edition shots… But that does not mean the fx shots were designed against the print itself. As the restored print was probably was not available to design the fx shots to match to.

It seems to match the laserdiscs more so or broadcast telecines in my opinion and that colorspace.

This explains the discrepency i feel.

I have a couple of references of the 1997 SE print, and I don’t see the discrepancies you are referring to. The digital shots were inserted into the restored negative, after which the restoration was color-timing was accomplished by YCM Labs, which included the new digital shots, I would think.

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master.

You imagine far too much.

Well I don’t imagine so far as the 97 broadcast version is concerned they do match up.

So this does mean it is not how i remember it and also it feels like what I have been trying to nail down what has happened… Do we have mixed colorspaces within the same film as of 2004. Look at the difference of the green laser color and stuff weird stuff going on similat to color error of using filters in wrong colorspace that well this thread proves you need to be in the right colorspace to use filters effectively on footage so as you get a true result or intended result.

Is this part of what has happened post 2004?

They simply digitally graded the new scan they made of the negative. Comparing the 2004 master with earlier telecines is comparing apples and oranges on a number of different levels. The 2004 version simply represents a completely different color grading done from scratch, while the telecines were sourced from color timed interpositives, where the telecine process itself introduces its own color signature, causing the final colors of the telecine to be only weakly correlated with the colors of the source.

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

definitely not… He has a calibrated laser gun.

I don’t think the special effects were designed to govwith restored 1977 footage.

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master. As that was the Master prior to any other version.

I don’t believe that’s correct. The GOUT is simply a telecine of a fading color timed interpositive of the original film. By the time the GOUT was made the negative and interpositives were already in a pretty poor state, as is evident from the GOUT itself, and the fact, that they had to rely on a technicolor print to color grade the film once the negative had been restored for the SE.

More info can be found here:

http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html

Ronster said:
But if you watch the 97 broadcast version they actually do match up pretty well in my opinion. This is because the shots were not designed to go with the new Master in 2004 but another master and the broadcast version seems to me a good match. But yeah I hate the mos eisley parts and stuff horrible no matter what.

They were designed to go with the restored 1977 footage, and cut into the current negative of the film. The SE was subsequently color timed traditionally to resemble a technicolor reference print, where I suspect they attempted to have the new footage match the surrounding old footage. For the 2004 master the negative including the new shots were scanned, and subsequently a digital color timing was applied, that yielded an entirely different look for the film, one that’s not very natural or photographic, but apparently what Lucas wanted.

Ronster said:

DrDre said:

I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecine´s generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

ok I only really was comparing the detail in the special effects shots initially and this is good although it is pan & scan.

But yeah I noticed how different it was and I thought this looked like a modified Gout master paired with the special edition effects. I honestly did not spend much time looking at it. But I think there is something right and something match up between the special edition effects and this broadcast version. It may be bad in your eyes but it may just have some problems.

It does seem that the general consensus is TV broadcast = bad looking not desireable and always wrong.

Nobody said the TV broadcasts are always bad looking, just that unless you define your objectives when color grading a shot or scene, blanket statements that involve the terms “wrong” or “right” have zero meaning, and represent your own subjective tastes. You make these claims like “the magenta shouldn’t be there”, or “there’s a hue shift” without providing any proof, or reference to back up these claims. When knowledgeable people like poita provide you with references, and advice, you ignore them or dismiss them outright, because you would rather trust your own infallible memory of a movie you saw over four decades ago. Rather than acknowledge that your process is flawed (as almost any process is), and your results highly variable, and debatable, you keep insisting that whatever you’re doing produces the “right” colors.

I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecines generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print? If not, all your hue shift represents is an interpretation, that looks pleasing to you, and perhaps a number of other people. Saying “the colors are fixed” means very little unless you define what that means. Does it mean the colors closely match what was seen in theatres? If so, how did you establish this? Does this mean the colors closely match reliable photographs of props, sets, and locations, such that the look of your “fix” roughly represents what was captured on camera in 1977?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

Ronster said:

DrDre said:

Ronster said:

Gout Hue Shifting Correction Reveals the true look of the Gout. It’s actually a doddle to fix this film using the GOUT. This was Loaded in VLC Media PLayer > Tools > Effects and Filters > Image Adjust.

This Yielded Better results than Loading it in to an non linear editor for MPEG decoding issues. Possibly womble DVD editor is probably the best thing to use to fix this and export for reference (free 30 day trial)

Perhaps still a bit pink on Tarkin.

The amount of Shift Changed

I think this is a fairly conclusive experiment and I now feel like I can see what the film is supposed to look like. I think it looks really really nice like this and it’s so simple and easy to get it where it needs to be.

To me it’s perfect like this… So to create a reference from a hue shifted GOUT would be the way to go, this could then be easily color matched to say the Blu-Ray and fix that pile of crap.

This is the best solution I feel to what is happening and the confusion over what the film should look like. Some sequences have shots that require different amounts of Shift but eventually after going through it piece by piece you will get to a conclusive answer on the Normal film footage.

The Special Effects as I said requires different Handling.

The reason I suggest using Womble is because it will handle the MPEG without having to decipher it as when I put this in NLE the results were slightly different and not as good. You xould also just use VLC for snapshots Like I have done and Color match.

This won’t give good reference for absolutely everything but I reckon about 80% some parts require no shift at all like R2 and 3P0 on the sandcrawler for instance. It only needs to shift when you see red face and so on.

I would probably trust the brightness and levels of the JSC to get a slightly brighter and less dark but overall I think I have found a good soloution.

Go and see what it is meant to look like 😃 It looks lovely…

The Gout has unfaded Highlights and the Door flash should look like this, Although I think there is a bit of a question over the light on the right hand side of the door is either Blue or Purple? I think it is Blue and we have an issue there. Not sure about the deep Blue that suddenly appear either before the explosion. Also note Soldier with purple shirt. It is all obvious evidence of Hue Shifting and the whole lot is swinging about like a windsock in a hurricane here.

The color is right but just shifting Hues so it needs to be conformed so that it maintains the correct Hue or the same Hue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4sV3lqzKqQ

While most of these look good, I think you should avoid phrases like “the true look” of the GOUT unless you use some sort of reliable reference to define what such a definition entails. Any other method involves a great level of subjectivity and personal preference.

Ronster Remembers…Your Prints might be a bit different but this is how it used to look or very close with what I grew up with I am sure of it. The Hues are shifting that is about it. Like I said won’t get same result in NLE has to be done direct to mpeg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs

Sorry if I’m a bit skeptical, but memory is a very unreliable reference source especially after four decades. Then there’s the fact that the prints you believe you remember also had their own hue shifts and inconsistencies, which were just part of the color grading process of that time.

Ronster said:

Gout Hue Shifting Correction Reveals the true look of the Gout. It’s actually a doddle to fix this film using the GOUT. This was Loaded in VLC Media PLayer > Tools > Effects and Filters > Image Adjust.

This Yielded Better results than Loading it in to an non linear editor for MPEG decoding issues. Possibly womble DVD editor is probably the best thing to use to fix this and export for reference (free 30 day trial)

Perhaps still a bit pink on Tarkin.

The amount of Shift Changed

I think this is a fairly conclusive experiment and I now feel like I can see what the film is supposed to look like. I think it looks really really nice like this and it’s so simple and easy to get it where it needs to be.

To me it’s perfect like this… So to create a reference from a hue shifted GOUT would be the way to go, this could then be easily color matched to say the Blu-Ray and fix that pile of crap.

This is the best solution I feel to what is happening and the confusion over what the film should look like. Some sequences have shots that require different amounts of Shift but eventually after going through it piece by piece you will get to a conclusive answer on the Normal film footage.

The Special Effects as I said requires different Handling.

The reason I suggest using Womble is because it will handle the MPEG without having to decipher it as when I put this in NLE the results were slightly different and not as good. You xould also just use VLC for snapshots Like I have done and Color match.

This won’t give good reference for absolutely everything but I reckon about 80% some parts require no shift at all like R2 and 3P0 on the sandcrawler for instance. It only needs to shift when you see red face and so on.

I would probably trust the brightness and levels of the JSC to get a slightly brighter and less dark but overall I think I have found a good soloution.

Go and see what it is meant to look like 😃 It looks lovely…

The Gout has unfaded Highlights and the Door flash should look like this, Although I think there is a bit of a question over the light on the right hand side of the door is either Blue or Purple? I think it is Blue and we have an issue there. Not sure about the deep Blue that suddenly appear either before the explosion. Also note Soldier with purple shirt. It is all obvious evidence of Hue Shifting and the whole lot is swinging about like a windsock in a hurricane here.

The color is right but just shifting Hues so it needs to be conformed so that it maintains the correct Hue or the same Hue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4sV3lqzKqQ

While most of these look good, I think you should avoid phrases like “the true look” of the GOUT or “the color is right” unless you use some sort of reliable reference to define what such a statement is worth. Any other method involves a great level of subjectivity and personal preference.

https://www.cnet.com/news/actually-half-of-the-last-jedi-haters-were-not-russian-trolls/

“Commentary: Numerous reports say The Last Jedi negativity was influenced by Russian bots and trolls, but the reality is far different.”

"Bay is “moderately disappointed in some of the major media brands” that ran articles without taking the time to get a little deeper. He understands that some of his findings were buried because they produce a less enticing lede than “Russian Troll Army invading the Star Wars galaxy.”

That’s just not what his research suggests.

“The suspected Russian trolls are so few that it is basically the normal amount of Russian trolls you would expect to be present in a high-profile online debate.”"

“Ultimately, it is ironic that in an era when fake news and misinformation are so rife, Bay’s study found widespread appeal via a media-driven narrative that was far, far away from the truth.”

DominicCobb said:

I don’t really see the issue with the study. It’s says ten percent of the negative tweets are troll/bots/bigots, which is only half of critical audience. So if anything the critics should be happy that’s it’s validating them… but no, of course this study is just saying “everybody” is racist/sexist. Sure. I don’t see the problem with Rian Johnson retweeting it either, I think he literally stated that it supports what he’s been saying that it’s only a small percentage that sends him stuff like that (this study is after all focused entirely on tweets directed at him).

Also, Collipso, potentially buying bots and actually buying off professional real life movie critics are such incredibly different things in so many ways that I can’t imagine why anyone would think one proves the other.

I also don’t have a problem with the study. I take issue with the conclusions that are drawn based on the select few who sent tweets to RJ, and the use this group as some accurate representation of the fandom in general. I take issue with his “political” category, which equates political affiliations (oddly restricted to right wing politics) with active political messaging and subversion, which is presented as some sort of proof, that the backlash isn’t real, mostly Trump supporters, bigots, and Russian bots.

oojason said:

MalàStrana said:

Ryan-SWI said:

DrDre said:

Hi guys - fancy seeing you in here? Hope you’re all well.

These bots, eh? Attempting to persistently post negative comments and manipulate & distort views on a film… who knew?

See you guys around - and take care 😃
 

LOL

MalàStrana said:

“An academic paper finds that half of criticism aimed at director Rian Johnson was politically motivated”

so I assume that people who like it aren’t political about the movie ? (this must be a joke, this paper is totally ridiculous)

(I’m highly disappointed that Rian Johnson retweets this kind of paper)

"Supporters of The Last Jedi have called these detractors out as being predominantly white males
with misogynistic views that did not care for the film’s attempts at improving representation of
women and ethnic/sexual minorities in the Star Wars franchise. "

God, what a horrible paper! You’re political (which to the writer in this paper seems to restrict itself to the definition: not a progressive), or a real fan. The entire paper screams bias, as it focusses solely on the negative response, and perceived political beliefs that may be correlated with the response of a subsection of the fan base, but completely ignores the idea, that such correlations may also exist among supporters of the film. This is important here, since the writer promotes the idea, that a fan who has a strong political affiliation essentially disqualifies him- or herself as a fan of the franchise with genuine opinions of the film. It also makes the unsupported ridiculous claim, that any tweet by a supporter of Trump, or a fan with a right wing political affiliation in general should be considered deliberate, organized political influence measures disguised as fan arguments. In other words this subsection of the fan base cannot make fan arguments, but are only able to make active political statements pushing a right wing agenda. It’s only through the filter of their political beliefs that these people are apparently able to function, and frame arguments. Therefore their opinions of the film should be seen solely through the lens of their political beliefs, which I suppose the author feels are abhorrent. Then there’s the elephant in the room that is completely ignored by the author, namely his rather bald unsupported assertion, that the tweets send to RJ are somehow representative of the opinions of the fandom as a whole. This is thinly veiled propaganda, not science.

screams in the void said:

^ yes , Well said .

Indeed!

poita said:

Goodbye Gary Kurtz, Without you this film would not have been the classic it has become.

Indeed!

benduwan said:

DrDre said:

Here’s another quick correction:

to pink

Yeah, it could use a little more work:

Turisu said:

The cantina is supposed to be a dark and dingy dive so the darker look definitely makes sense. Dre, I love your colours but your correction perhaps makes it look a little too bright and cheerful. 😃

I agree:

Anchorhead said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

I’m not at all speaking for Dominic, so he should correct me if I’m off. I think he’s noting that technology doesn’t drive the story in-universe. Luke has a speeder because that’s how you get around, vaporators are how you get water, droids are the labor pool, space ships are how you travel from planet to planet, etc.

I had that in my original response as well, before I trimmed it. Technology, far superior to ours, is the world in which they live. The story at its roots is; old man enlists the help of a farm boy to go rescue the princess and fight the bad guys.

That story can be told in just about any timeline or setting.

I don’t agree. The entire concept of the Old Republic with its spiritual guardians tapping into a long forgotten energy field created by all living things vs an Empire with its technology wiping out the life of an entire planet in an instant is at the heart of the movie. It is one of its main themes. The destruction of the Death Star is the victory of spirituality over technology. The climax of the movie sees Luke reject a piece of technology in favour of trusting his instincts, and using the Force.

Here’s another quick correction:

You_Too said:
Here’s those two shots from 4K77 compared to my corrections, to give an idea of what it could all look like if someone ever did a proper shot by shot correction. (Which would of course take a horrible amount of work. I still think the 4K77 looks amazing as it is!) I used the 1080p version for my corrections since it’s the only version I have, so if you see any compression artifacts it’s just because the source isn’t lossless. Whites and blacks were balanced while keeping the mid balance and altering the gamma curve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120762
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120764

I’m actually working on a shot by shot correction, where the aim is to approach the theatrical color grading but without the color casts and inconcistencies introduced by the technicolor printing process. Here’s another example of where I would put a preliminary color grading for the two cantina shots based on the references I have:

Skymaster:

Your corrections:

My corrections:

For comparison are those shots for the bluray:

DominicCobb said:
Absolutely baffles me. Technology is of exactly zero importance in Star Wars. It’s there, that’s it. The films are not about that at all. They are modern myths, and very clearly so. You cannot with a straight face tell me that Star Wars is more similar to Shelly and Verne than to Tolkein and Arthurian legends.

I disagree with this statement. The original Star Wars trilogy was very much about technology. In fact the original Star Wars can be seen as a critique of the modern world, where technology supersedes spirituality punctuated by Motti´s remark “This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe!” This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of the first movie, namely that the Jedi and even Darth Vader himself are seen as relics of the past in a galaxy dominated by technology.

Yeah, that looks nice! 😃