DominicCobb

Valheru_84 said:

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment)

Lucas messed up, minimizing the importance of the saber by not making it his only one.

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

To my point though, if you’re going to get nitpicky about the history, Luke didn’t inherit it. Obi-Wan stole it and gave it to him without Anakin’s permission. So it’s as legitimately Rey’s as it is Luke’s by your excessively literal-minded logic.

What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

(also aren’t Jedi not supposed to have possessions anyway?)

rodneyfaile said:

The way Rogue One fits so well with Star Wars, I could go for more stories like that. I could go for one about the Bothan spies that leads up to Return of the Jedi. The best would be a Darth Vader movie taking place directly after Revenge of the Sith.

And you think that’d be weird?

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

They’ll put that trailer before Endgame for sure.

Or at Star Wars: Celebration in Chicago.

Both

Fang Zei said:

Do you think they’ll take a page from Endgame’s marketing and wait until the trailer drops (presumably at Celebration) to even tell us what the title is?

At this point I think yes.

RogueLeader said:

Some people think that it will be before, because they think there will probably be Episode IX merch with the title on it, which would make it harder to keep under wraps.

This leads me to something I’ve been thinking about, do you think we might see the “Episode IX” title slip into any of the marketing materials? I could potentially see it here and there as there might be added emphasis on this being (supposedly) the final episode.

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

They’ll put that trailer before Endgame for sure.

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

Man, I gotta circle back to this because your description of events is crazy. Let’s follow Rey’s path with the lightsaber, shall we? Maz gives it to her (who knows where she got it from), but she rejects it. Maz then gives it to Finn, who fumbles with it until he gets knocked out. Rey then grabs the saber in a pitched moment to face Kylo. From there, she searches for Luke and offers him back the saber. He takes it, but then throws it away, not actually wanting it. Naturally she picks it back up. But she doesn’t take it for herself, unlike Luke in ESB we never see the saber holstered on her belt. She puts the saber back in the bag where she had stored it en route to deliver to Luke. Later, while practicing with her staff, she thinks “fuck it” and takes the saber for a spin (though ends up semi-embarrassed with the results). After communing with Ben and entering the dark side hole, Luke tells her explicitly to “leave this island.” She believes Ben is her next best hope, but still once again offers Luke the saber. And, once again, Luke refuses. Naturally, she then takes the saber with her to the Supremacy.

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Sorry, not getting your drift. Please expand upon what is evidently obvious to yourself.

So Ben is the presumed heir and birthright of the Skywalker legacy and their immense force power but this fucks with his head and he messes up, meanwhile Rey is a nobody who no one expects anything of but who manages to achieve that which was expected of Ben simply because of his lineage… maybe this was on purpose.

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

In regards to comparing the Obi-wan vs Rey situations of obtaining the saber, the two are CLEARLY not the same and it’s pretty disingenuous to say so - one is keeping the saber of your now mortal enemy who is responsible for ending the Jedi order, murdering younglings in the process among other atrocities already committed by this stage. You’re not going to leave it within his force grip reach while he’s still alive. Also a Jedi’s weapon is not something to just be left laying around for anyone to find. He might even have some sentimental value in it himself if he helped his old student Anakin construct it.

Doubtful he helped him construct it as it wasn’t his first saber (silly Lucas). My point of comparison was a joke. It’s ridiculous to use the word stolen in either regard. But it is a term more accurate for Obi-wan, as the item was literally in Anakin’s possession as he took it. If you’re going to get nitpicky about something completely irrelevant like who the lightsaber actually belongs to, don’t forget Anakin never gave it away, so your point is on shaky ground.

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

“Something of huge sentimental value” - clearly not, at least in that moment, as he throws it away. You’re missing the vital semiotic meaning of the saber. It’s a whole lot more than just an object that someone does or does not have ownership over.

OutboundFlight said:

While I do see their message about Rey being a nobody (especially following the PT which foolishly made Anakin the “chosen one”), I for one never got the impression that Luke was somehow privileged. He just wanted to be like his father.

Don’t disagree.

Ben I could see being privileged, but I’d like to see them play it up more. Maybe even in an Excalibur like sequence where he tries to unlock an ancient heirloom of the skywalkers but fails- while Rey is deemed worthy of it not for her lineage but for morals.

In a way, depending on how you look at it, they already did a subtle version of this in TFA when Rey grabs the saber. But I get the desire for something explicit.

Maybe it is just my expectations subverted, but I would prefer to see Ben properly end the saga. His death would mark a true conclusion, rather than it being “the Skywalkers are all gone but Rey has founded the New New Jedi and all will be well for 30 years”. Most that comes down to how they present the ending.

I think there’s a lot of ways that they could make it work. I don’t think Ben has to die. I personally don’t want them to tie off the saga with a nice bow.

In my mind the ST is basically about how perfectly tied up happy endings are improbable. Would be pretty annoying to see them walk that back. (but again, there are a lot of ways that could manifest)

Fair enough.

Those shots with the Executor remind me of a couple shot that’s always bothered me, Falcon cockpit shots where the perspective of the Executor as the Falcon moves seems off somehow…

this video at 3:04 and a few seconds after
https://youtu.be/xPZigWFyK2o?t=184

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

Hal 9000 said:

Just a quick random thought.
I’ve always had a tulmtous relationship with my Dad, who passed away a few years ago and who I believe to have had a case of high functioning autism. I have felt a great deal of immutable criticism from him and longed for affirmations or validations which were exceedingly rare. It’s been helpful for me to recognize some of the underlying factors and the limitations he was working with all along.
One reason I appreciate the original ‘old man’ ghost of Anakin at the end of ROTJ is because not only do we see Anakin redeemed in the unmasking scene, we even get to see him fully restored into the man he should have been all along. He doesn’t revert to a juvenile state, but is legitimately restored to become what he wasn’t able to be. I know it’s a bit silly, but the image of this sort of restored man smiling back at me speaks to this deep part of me. Able to say those things to me which perhaps he wasn’t before.

I’m glad the scene holds that meaning for you. I can see how it could be viewed that way.

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

SilverWook said:

No problem. This guy did it first. 😃

It happens so fast, that on early viewings I thought the pilot had lost control of his A-Wing. Pretty dark for a movie with alien teddy bears in it.

I still think he lost control.

OutboundFlight said:

I for one think it makes no sense why the rebels don’t try that more often… especially with droids.

Presumably missiles are more effective and less costly.

RogueLeader said:

I think on the surface the OT and ST are similar, but given time for the canon to explore that time period (which they have been avoiding as to give as much creative freedom to the filmmakers as possible), these the two era can potentially feel quite distinct.

I think the political situation in the buildup to the war can be grounds for a very compelling story about politics and espionage. The show Resistance does get into that a bit. Spies within the Senate, and unknown threat in uncharted space.

Check out Bloodline and the Poe Dameron comic if you haven’t already.

I think this new war has a lot of potential to set itself apart from the Galactic Civil War as well. The Resistance can literally fit on the Falcon, even the Rebellion was better off in its worst condition. How will they recruit help? How will they actually fight the First Order? Will they use even more dirty, guerrilla tactics rather than open battles like the Rebellion did?

The First Order are invaders rather than the de facto government, how will they treat their citizens and the Resistance compared to the Old Empire? Will they be more radical? More aggressive? You also have the dynamic between the old guard and the new, the Imperials vets vs the First Order generation and how they perceive each other.

One of the reasons I’m becoming more invested in Resistance is they have characters dealing with FO occupation and not all of them think it’s such a bad thing. It’s exactly the sort of complexity I’d want from this era, answering the essential question, how could another empire rise to prominence? Because not everyone thinks they’re the bad guys, or fully understands their severity.

And for me, one of the most interesting things is the fact that the leaders on both sides are in fact mother and son. The family drama has manifested into a galactic-scale war, even more so than the Galactic Civil War if you think about it. I definitely think it is possible for this conflict to stand out from the OT, but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how they handle it in IX and further media.

This is a great observation but it pains me. In my mind it’s very hard to imagine that the Leia/Ben dynamic wasn’t envisioned as a cornerstone of IX. And I’m sure there’ll be elements of that in the finished product, but unfortunately I doubt there’ll be much Carrie material to work with in that regard.

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

fmalover said:

I recently gave the prequel trilogy another try and you know what? My distaste for TFA has rekindled my appreciation of the PT. Now I enjoy, like really enjoy, the PT. Are they objectively bad movies? Hell yes, but I still rate them above TFA. That’s how much I dislike TFA.

I’ve had a similar experience, though for me it has more to do with the lore. Needless to say the PT films aren’t too well made, but I like the distinct world Lucas built for it much more than what we’ve gotten so far in the ST. For me SW is more than just the movies, and so far I’ve had no interest in the ST EU. The Clone Wars era EU on the other hand I’ve found more original and nuanced.

I’ve enjoyed the ST as movies, but the lore has IMO been very bland and boring.

That probably explains a bit why some PT fans hate the ST (and potentially vice versa?). I could give a shit about lore, and I feel like on of the biggest issues of the PT is putting lore and world building in front of effective storytelling. I mean I like SW lore, but in my mind that’s what the EU is for. When I watch a movie, I want a good movie, and in my opinion the ST delivers far above the PT in that regard.

I agree with all of the above, but I personally (like many fans) spend more time with EU material than just the movies. And so far I’ve had more fun with stories originating from the PT than the ST. It just boils down to individual priorities. For some fans the EU is really important and if the new movies don’t serve as platforms for interesting new stories, then those movies just aren’t that interesting to them, regardless of how well they were made.

As a film fan I admire the ST more than the PT, but as a SW fan I lean more towards the PT.

I’m sure we’ll eventually get a decent amount of ST EU material, just seems like it’ll be delayed in comparison.

Hell, we’re getting a whole theme park experience as part of the ST EU, I’d say that’s pretty cool.

Sure, thought it’s not really the amount that is bothering me and many other fans, it’s rather that the new lore feels too similar to the OT. The PT, despite giving us awkward dialogue, bad CG, etc, etc. did at the very least give us a completely different conflict between new factions that felt different from the OT. ST material kind of just feel like a “reskin” of the OT rather than something new. Some fans like that, and I get why; “don’t fix what isn’t broken” etc. but for some fans it’s just kind of dull.

Well it really is about the amount though. That feeling you have is because the ST is so light on lore in the movies in comparison to the PT. The conflict is distinctly different from the OT in ways that become increasingly more apparent with each new bit of canon that’s released - with the problem being of course that there’s not much out there. For example, there’s what, two ST era novels that exist? Phasma and Bloodline? Neither are like anything else SW I’ve read, and I’d argue Bloodline especially reveals a lot of interesting information and could go toe to toe with any of the PT novels I’ve read, quality-wise. Perhaps if you only watch the movies you’d think things are too similar to the OT, but if you read that for example (or watched Resistance even), the differences would be much clearer.

The new theme park does seem pretty impressive, and it’ll be fun to see how all of that is going to work out. And I am also quite exited about the Mandalorian TV series, so I do enjoy the new canon overall, I’ve just also gotten a newfound appreciation of the Clone Wars era in general.

Well I’m fairness I don’t believe The Mandolorian would qualify as ST era.

As for newfound appreciation for the CW, I try to sympathize but I don’t know if I can. The whole conflict that GL set up has so many stupid aspects to it that are only really “fixed” with the help of various EU content (if even that) that my feelings are just a little complex. Personally I enjoy that the ST era doesn’t have the baggage of less than stellar movies to work with and am excited on the EU front to see where they take things, especially because the films themselves don’t explain too much.

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

fmalover said:

I recently gave the prequel trilogy another try and you know what? My distaste for TFA has rekindled my appreciation of the PT. Now I enjoy, like really enjoy, the PT. Are they objectively bad movies? Hell yes, but I still rate them above TFA. That’s how much I dislike TFA.

I’ve had a similar experience, though for me it has more to do with the lore. Needless to say the PT films aren’t too well made, but I like the distinct world Lucas built for it much more than what we’ve gotten so far in the ST. For me SW is more than just the movies, and so far I’ve had no interest in the ST EU. The Clone Wars era EU on the other hand I’ve found more original and nuanced.

I’ve enjoyed the ST as movies, but the lore has IMO been very bland and boring.

That probably explains a bit why some PT fans hate the ST (and potentially vice versa?). I could give a shit about lore, and I feel like on of the biggest issues of the PT is putting lore and world building in front of effective storytelling. I mean I like SW lore, but in my mind that’s what the EU is for. When I watch a movie, I want a good movie, and in my opinion the ST delivers far above the PT in that regard.

I agree with all of the above, but I personally (like many fans) spend more time with EU material than just the movies. And so far I’ve had more fun with stories originating from the PT than the ST. It just boils down to individual priorities. For some fans the EU is really important and if the new movies don’t serve as platforms for interesting new stories, then those movies just aren’t that interesting to them, regardless of how well they were made.

As a film fan I admire the ST more than the PT, but as a SW fan I lean more towards the PT.

I’m sure we’ll eventually get a decent amount of ST EU material, just seems like it’ll be delayed in comparison.

Hell, we’re getting a whole theme park experience as part of the ST EU, I’d say that’s pretty cool.

ZkinandBonez said:

fmalover said:

I recently gave the prequel trilogy another try and you know what? My distaste for TFA has rekindled my appreciation of the PT. Now I enjoy, like really enjoy, the PT. Are they objectively bad movies? Hell yes, but I still rate them above TFA. That’s how much I dislike TFA.

I’ve had a similar experience, though for me it has more to do with the lore. Needless to say the PT films aren’t too well made, but I like the distinct world Lucas built for it much more than what we’ve gotten so far in the ST. For me SW is more than just the movies, and so far I’ve had no interest in the ST EU. The Clone Wars era EU on the other hand I’ve found more original and nuanced.

I’ve enjoyed the ST as movies, but the lore has IMO been very bland and boring.

That probably explains a bit why some PT fans hate the ST (and potentially vice versa?). I could give a shit about lore, and I feel like on of the biggest issues of the PT is putting lore and world building in front of effective storytelling. I mean I like SW lore, but in my mind that’s what the EU is for. When I watch a movie, I want a good movie, and in my opinion the ST delivers far above the PT in that regard.

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I just disagree with giving him a force ghost.

Why, though? He died as a hero and I believe Obi-Wan and Yoda allowed him to become a visible spirit in the Force.

See my previous posts today on the subject.

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I just disagree with giving him a force ghost.

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, no shit, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

No shit. But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

SilverWook said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Haven’t watched the Moore films as recently, but they’re too over the top too.

For Your Eyes Only is the major exception.

Hmm? Is that not exactly what he’s doing? Pushing it over the top?

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.