DominicCobb

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Gotten into this album lately

Good one. Have you listened to their other stuff?

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.

RogueLeader said:

You should, Dom! It’s gonna be the last film in the Saga. Try to make plans ahead of time.

Unfortunately the folks and I live on two different sides of the country, otherwise it wouldn’t be an issue. Hopefully I’ll see them around the holidays though.

leetwall31 said:

I’ll take your word for it, but that link didn’t really make sense to me. Do you have maybe a quick quote from that thread I could read instead?

This post covers it pretty well:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017/page/1#1270726

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

That’s the point tho. If there was an order of people who used the Force and studied it for over a thousand years, they figured out what it was. I don’t think the Force is life necessarily, I think it’s supposed to be a by-product of life. It’s an energy that’s given off by living cells (Midi-Chlorians). Jedi/Sith harness that energy for their own use. That’s all we’re saying here. The Force isn’t life, and it’s not a religion. Outsiders call the Jedi a religion. It’s not, it’s a real practice. I think people who meditate can relate. Meditation is considered a religious practice, but the people who do it know that’s it’s really not, it’s a great mind hack to ease your temper and stress.

The force is a lot of things (in my example, its comparison to life is as a metaphor). That’s the beauty of keeping it ambiguous and open to interpretation. Nailing down exact parameters is limiting.

DominicCobb said:

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

Lol I get where you’re coming from. But I digress: it’s a newer and more interesting trilogy than what we’re getting now. I think the real reason they didn’t go for it was because George’s trilogy probably officially ended the Star Wars story. Wasn’t Star Wars a story told in a Journal by the Whills in the first place? If they’re gone, then there’s no one left to keep telling us the stories.

“Newer” does not necessarily equal better, you could make the ST about space janitors scrubbing toilets for 6 hours and it’d be “newer” for the series (and “more interesting” is a matter of preference, personally I think rooting the force in science is the opposite of interesting). And it’s not like the sequel trilogy is not exploring the force, it’s just not exploring midichlorians. The “real reason” they’re not using Lucas’s treatment is because even if Lucas ended up directing these films, he wouldn’t have used his treatment. Movies change and evolve significantly throughout development (now multiply that by 3). Look at the first treatment for “The Star Wars” and then look at the finished product and see what I mean.

As for the Journal of the Whills, if Lucas really thought it was so important he would have included it within his “completed” 6 episode saga. I like the concept too, but it is weird to blame the ST for overlooking it, when it was never a real thing beyond a recurring notion in the back of Lucas’s head.

I hope I get the chance to see IX with my family. Have some fond memories of seeing the prequels with them. Got a chance to see TFA once with my parents and that was great (they loved it). Didn’t get a chance to see TLJ with them but I wish I had. Caught up with them after they saw it and they were going crazy about it. Don’t think I could consider them anything more than casual fans, by the way.

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft?

No. Funny enough, this was just discussed on the site very recently: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

Oh, I’m sorry. I’m, what was the word you used? “Silly.” That’s right. My bad.

No man I’m sorry, I’m the one who’s being silly. You need to help me out, cause you’re the lucky guy who figured out how to like Episode 8! I’m so jealous, cause I wanted to love it so much!

No apology necessary, and trust me, I’m far from the only one.

I think we’re getting waaaaaay off topic here btw lol

Yes

Midichlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

This feels very narrow-minded to me, that you would lose respect for a person just because they like a certain movie. At least your being honest, I guess.

See, honesty is fine. But I think my approach is preferable, where I merely imply that because someone else has a different opinion that I respect them less.

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

I get what your saying, but anecdotal information isn’t really evidence. Many of the people I know who saw the movie liked it, and I read a lot of good opinions about the movie. Does that make me right?

All opinions are anecdotal. That kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion. But damn, I really wanna find some people who liked it now. I knew nobody who did.

Since you seem to care, for what it’s worth I know no one who didn’t like it. Have a couple friends who disliked certain aspects, but that’s as harsh as it gets. Most of us are baffled by the backlash.

Interesting. Would you describe your friends as Star Wars fans?

Yes. In fact I’d say that the people who like it less are the people who are less of fans. I like it more than anyone I know personally and am also the biggest SW fan I know. If that helps with your research.

That makes sense. See none of the people I asked were Star Wars fans. I think only the big fans like this movie, mainly because it’s just Star Wars. If people who don’t really care about Star Wars don’t like it, then that says a lot, because they’re judging it on the basis of whether or not it’s a good movie by itself. I think their opinion matters more. Star Wars fans will love it (duh), but what will ordinary people think?

I can’t really speak to that. I love it because in my mind it is a good movie first, and a great Star Wars movie second (I also consider myself a film fan first and a Star Wars fan second). I also wouldn’t categorize my friends who like it less as “ordinary people”/non-Star Wars fans. In fact, the reasons they gave for disliking it were all things that they felt didn’t fit in a Star Wars movie, in their minds (there were arguments had, I assure you).

I haven’t really talked about it with non-friends/“ordinary people,” so I’d have to think about that. I know after it came out I talked with a coworker who thought I’d hate it because I was a Star Wars fan and there was the backlash and whatever. She liked it (and didn’t understand what said backlash was about). Don’t know if she’s even seen all the Star Wars movies.

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

Speaking for the people who think it’s a silly movie, it comes off like fast food. It’s just so obviously fake, processed and insincere. We can’t help but look at the people who defend it as kinda silly themselves, because to us it’s just such an obviously poor attempt to be what it is. But most people may miss that because it’s packaged in a specific way that averts you from it’s flaws. It doesn’t expect you to think, and if you did, you’d recognize that it’s not good too.

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

I am deeply disappointed that I have lost your respect. I don’t know what I will ever do without it. Maybe someday I can be as smart as you.

That was really immature.

Oh, I’m sorry. I’m, what was the word you used? “Silly.” That’s right. My bad.

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

I get what your saying, but anecdotal information isn’t really evidence. Many of the people I know who saw the movie liked it, and I read a lot of good opinions about the movie. Does that make me right?

All opinions are anecdotal. That kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion. But damn, I really wanna find some people who liked it now. I knew nobody who did.

Since you seem to care, for what it’s worth I know no one who didn’t like it. Have a couple friends who disliked certain aspects, but that’s as harsh as it gets. Most of us are baffled by the backlash.

Interesting. Would you describe your friends as Star Wars fans?

Yes. In fact I’d say that the people who like it less are the people who are less of fans. I like it more than anyone I know personally and am also the biggest SW fan I know. If that helps with your research.

Speaking for the people who think it’s a silly movie, it comes off like fast food. It’s just so obviously fake, processed and insincere. We can’t help but look at the people who defend it as kinda silly themselves, because to us it’s just such an obviously poor attempt to be what it is. But most people may miss that because it’s packaged in a specific way that averts you from it’s flaws. It doesn’t expect you to think, and if you did, you’d recognize that it’s not good too.

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

I am deeply disappointed that I have lost your respect. I don’t know what I will ever do without it. Maybe someday I can be as smart as you.

This is an idea that’s been around for quite a while, has anyone ever done a mockup? I’d be for it depending on how it looks. It’s a pretty cool idea.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Personally I’m not a big fan of the restructured concept

You take that back.

Zachary VIII said:

Can I skip season 1 and still know what’s going on? Also, will I like the second season if I didn’t like the first one? I watched a bit of season 1 and hated it for its slapstick comedy and pedestrian conflicts.

The show’s still on season 1 (finale is next week I think). But you could probably jump in midway through the season and not miss much. The slapstick comedy doesn’t really go away (though it is less prominent), but the conflicts are definitely much less pedestrian.

I imagine they’d want to have cameras or whatever recording and broadcasting to strike fear throughout the galaxy and such.

Personally I’m not a big fan of the restructured concept so I don’t care about that aspect.

This is the most kiddie of the series they’ve produced so far, but man the end of the most recent episode has got to be one of the darkest moments I’ve seen on any of these shows by far.

Hux is actually very capable. The films paint him as the mastermind behind both the Starkiller and the hyperspace tracking. Butt of jokes or not, the character is a legit threat, and could make a play to win the First Order for himself.

As to the stakes going into IX, I guess it’s personal preference, but I appreciate that you can stop watching after TLJ and feel satisfied. Probably one of the only things I dislike about ESB is that it doesn’t work as a standalone. It tries to make it up with a happy-ish ending, but it still feels lacking for me. With TLJ, at the end, the Resistance is at its lowest point yet. Their fleet has been wiped out, all they have is the Falcon and a group of maybe 40 people tops. That’d be a pretty rough ending for a movie, so I really like that the film lays down the track so you can see how they have “everything they need” to come out on top.

In my mind, it’s up to IX to set the stakes for itself. I find it to be the same relationship TFA had with TLJ. At the end of TFA, the FO has had a big blow, and Rey has located their savior, Skywalker. Which made it up to TLJ to establish its own stakes. Obviously opinions differ on execution, but I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with the approach itself. Again, personal preference I guess, but I personally would hate it if a Star Wars film ended like Infinity War, for instance.

DrDre said:

There was a mutual respect between Tarkin and Vader in An New Hope, which supported the idea, that both these villains are threatening, and competent in their own way, Vader with brute force, and Tarkin with his intellect.

Another way in which people complain that the ST isn’t similar enough I guess. Kylo and Hux hate each other. I find that a much more interesting dynamic than Tarkin/Vader and am very curious to see where that goes now that their leader is gone and it’s just them.

Even in TESB, they never made Admiral Piett seem like a joke for example. While Vader killed several of his underlings, this mostly served to make Vader seem powerful and feared, but never in such a way that the imperial officers seem like incompetent fools.

Vader literally says that one of his officers is “as clumsy as he is stupid.” Piett might not be the joke that Hux is, but he definitely makes me laugh in ESB with his various pants-shitting faces.

This approach made Admiral Piett an effective bad guy in ROTJ, where he actually seemed far more comfortable in his position than in TESB.

An effective bad guy in ROTJ? Really? He’s barely even in that movie. He literally does nothing. I didn’t even realize it was the same guy from ESB when I was a kid. Very little impression from him. The more prominent officer in ROTJ is Jerjerrod, and how could anyone take that guy as a serious threat? He takes Piett’s occasional pants-shitting faces and makes them his whole personality.

I think there’s plenty of humor in the OT that is somewhat meta and dresses down the typical conventions of genre films. Maybe not to the extent of the ST but I find the humor in the latter trilogy to be a not unnatural extension. It’s funny because I’d say the attitude of “Don’t worry, even the characters in the movie know this is a bit silly” is something that can be found in the original film and one of the things I love about it. Obviously you take that too far and you’ve undercut the world you’re building but I truly am not sure where TLJ supposedly did that.

As to the question of earnestness, I think there’s a whole lot of it on display in TLJ, I would easily say far more so than TFA, honestly.

I personally feel like Solo was very much cut from the same cloth, if anything I’d say it’s the only one that maybe took the meta winks too far. Rogue One is definitely the lightest on comedy but it also happens to be the least fun Star Wars movie to watch by a mile - correlation inconclusive.

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level. So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

Hal 9000 said:

You know I’m not talking about comedy as such.

Truthfully, as I’ve never understand the complaint, I don’t really know what you’re talking about. The comedy of TLJ doesn’t feel out of character for the series to me if that’s what you mean.

Make Star Wars Serious Again

Hal 9000 said:

A George Lucas directed Jar Jar standalone. Seriously.

Along this train off thought, I’d be curious to see a Lucas created Whills/midichlorians kinda weirdo thing. I don’t mean whatever he had planned for the ST, just something that’s entirely about his conception of the force or whatever. Something really separated from the saga. Would it be canon? Who gives a shit. Would it be good? Ehh… but I’d be interested to see it.

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

Thanks for explaining what I don’t have the patience to.