DominicCobb

As for what how much will be included, deleted scenes-wise, here are the runtime breakdowns for past JJ Abrams films blu-rays…

Mission: Impossible III: 5:21
Star Trek: 13:27
Super 8: 12:47
Star Trek Into Darkness: (can’t find a exact runtime but there’s 7 scenes, including some extended and alternates)
The Force Awakens: 5:48

So it’s probably safe to say we won’t get nothing, but I’m trying not to get my hopes too high up.

NeverarGreat said:

I liked the dagger bullshit in so far as it felt like a bit from Indiana Jones.

Yeah I didn’t have a problem with that. It was actually the only bit with the dagger that made it feel like its goofiness was fun and justified.

RogueLeader said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

I just don’t know how possible it is to remove Rey’s parents from the movie? If its possible i would do it, but Ochi’s ship design is very explicitly from Force Awakens so it might be odd to have the same ship without the backstory?

It would be difficult for a number of reasons, that, but also quite a bit of dialogue is had talking about the fact that Palpatine had her parents killed, from Kylo but then later from Rey to Finn. In my mind, leaving it in is the much cleaner solution. Palpatine sensed her power early and wanted her dead, and ended up killing her parents looking for her. This fuels Rey’s anger and spurns her to search for Palpatine and kill him (as she states in the film). Removing that entirely would create a lot of problems.

The first Rey and Palpatine scene will already be a nightmare ‘My granddaughter…’ ‘Empress Palpatine’ etc.

Arguably, you could keep “Empress Palpatine,” because Palpatine will be taking over her body, right? Might actually make an interesting parallel to the last scene, here Palpatine is goading her to adopt his name, essentially.

I do agree it would be more difficult, but I do think removing that aspect would be worth exploring. I think Rey’s parents not caring about her makes her character more interesting, but if someone threatened her parents’ lives to know her location, if they didn’t care then they would’ve just told him. So it turns out her parents did care about her, and even died for her, which just makes her story a lot less interesting imo.

I don’t disagree at all. Just feel like it’s a house of cards, and taking out Rey Palpatine could already be enough to knock it all down. The solution I have at least keeps some of the structural integrity of the film as is (even if it reduces some of the meaning as a compromise). There is apparently a deleted scene where Ben tells Rey not to give into her hate and cut down Palpatine that would work well with the ‘Rey wants revenge’ angle as well.

snooker said:

I just don’t know how possible it is to remove Rey’s parents from the movie? If its possible i would do it, but Ochi’s ship design is very explicitly from Force Awakens so it might be odd to have the same ship without the backstory?

It would be difficult for a number of reasons, that, but also quite a bit of dialogue is had talking about the fact that Palpatine had her parents killed, from Kylo but then later from Rey to Finn. In my mind, leaving it in is the much cleaner solution. Palpatine sensed her power early and wanted her dead, and ended up killing her parents looking for her. This fuels Rey’s anger and spurns her to search for Palpatine and kill him (as she states in the film). Removing that entirely would create a lot of problems.

The first Rey and Palpatine scene will already be a nightmare ‘My granddaughter…’ ‘Empress Palpatine’ etc.

Arguably, you could keep “Empress Palpatine,” because Palpatine will be taking over her body, right? Might actually make an interesting parallel to the last scene, here Palpatine is goading her to adopt his name, essentially.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

I understand your POV just fine, but you’re forgetting the end of the movie. Or, you would be if you had gotten to that part.

Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping.

I can read synopses with the best of them.

Clearly the when you only read the synopses you miss the nuances.

I’m fundamentally at odds with the entire ethos of TLJ. I don’t like it on paper, and I wouldn’t like it in execution.

That’s your prerogative. But you clearly seem unable to fathom the POV of the film.

Well my second viewing was the same night as my first viewing, so that probably isn’t the best barometer, but for me the things that I didn’t like hit worse. I don’t know if I’ll see it again in theaters, but if I do I will report back.

Creox said:

NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

Well I still disagree that a Palpatine figure was needed, but that’s hardly my issue with it. We agree on the main point, which is that she could have remained a nobody, even with the plot as is.

Honestly, Palpatine’s return probably wouldn’t even rank in the top 10 of my problems with this film.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

I understand your POV just fine, but you’re forgetting the end of the movie. Or, you would be if you had gotten to that part.

Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping.

I can read synopses with the best of them.

Clearly the when you only read the synopses you miss the nuances.

I understand your POV just fine, but you’re forgetting the end of the movie. Or, you would be if you had gotten to that part.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

Believe it or not, just because you don’t have a wife and child doesn’t make you a failure.

My stance is far more nuanced than that. But nevermind — your opinion is the only correct one, anyway.

I mean, the whole point of what I’m saying is there is nuance to what constitutes failure vs. a successful life.

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against. Unless you are saying stick with Kylo as that?

Antagonist? Again, I think there are a lot of ways they could play with it. I think keeping Kylo as the antagonist for at least part of the film would be important, with them ultimately together coming to terms with the darkness and lightness within both of them. What if Kylo turns halfway through, and then the final battle is against the Knights of Ren, but the battle isn’t be to destroy them, but to save as many of them as possible (in this version they’d be the other students from Luke’s academy). Of course that’s just one way. What if Rey and Kylo switch sides halfway through? And then it becomes Ben trying to save Rey from the darkness? Or again like I said, you could even keep Palpatine and make her want revenge. Or maybe there doesn’t need to be a big force bad, and it’s a battle for the heart and soul of the people of the galaxy to rise up against the First Order? Point being, I think there are a million ways they could have done this film without having to undermine what they had been setting up.

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

The problem I see with that is Rey has already rejected Kylo’s call to the dark side under the impression she comes from nothing. The only way to make her question the dark side is to change the stakes.

The temptation to the dark side is more than just a matter of choosing teams. It’s a primal thing, it’s about giving into your dark urges. Luke rejected Vader in TESB under the impression that Vader was his father. What made him lose his shit in ROTJ was when Vader threatened to go after his sister. There are a million different ways you could have Rey fly off the handle. In fact, the movie as is is fairly decent about this aspect. Rey doesn’t need to be blood related to Palpatine to destroy the FO transport, or to stab Kylo Ren. These are moments where her anger got the best of her. This is the kind of thing we are supposed to believe can happen to any Jedi, not just one with a dark side lineage.

The fact that Poe and Finn didn’t end up in a relationship is definitely one of the more unfortunate elements of the trilogy for me. They clearly had some real chemistry in TFA and I don’t think there’s any lack of stories about dudes who are just really close like bothers (but not in love, never in love).

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

Octorox said:

RogueLeader said:

Do you guys feel that Zorri and Jannah were introduced strangely as potential love interests for Finn and Poe? I feel they wanted to make it clear they’re not gay, or something.

I saw this movie with a few friends, two of which are part of the LGBTQ+ community and they both read it this way. This is the only reason I’d consider cutting the overtly romantic bits of Poe and Zorri’s relationship, to leave it at least ambiguous.

In fairness, Poe could be bi. But I get it.

Believe it or not, just because you don’t have a wife and child doesn’t make you a failure.

I would safely say the AOTC plot remains undefeated in terms of nonsense. TROS is next though.

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

adywan said:

Outside of this site the reaction towards TROS has been overwhelmingly positive.

Well the Cinemascore is much lower than for any of the other Disney Star Wars films.

But what i can’t believe is just what this site has now become. Fans openly wishing for these films to fail? Seriously? This place has now become everything it had always been accused of. It was bad enough when TLJ came out , but now it’s become a place i no longer enjoy visiting.

I’m not wishing for it to fail. But I hope, if it does fail, they learn the right lessons.

DuracellEnergizer said:

And best of all, Luke wouldn’t have become an abject failure with no legacy.

Was gonna say you must have watched a different film than I did but then I remember you didn’t watch the film at all.

NFBisms said:

Valheru_84 said:

NFBisms said:

I just don’t get it? Like, even if you didn’t like TLJ, it’d be better to at least try to follow up on that. What we got was transparently bad improv. Surely there was a better way to address the criticisms of the prior movie, while also doing something else that could feel like a continuation of it. Anything else!

As someone who loves TLJ, it’s honestly baffling. I mean, I had fun, but for all the wrong reasons. TROS was just ridiculous to me. I think I honestly would have hated it, if it wasn’t so cavalier in its capitalistic cynicism, honestly to the point of unintentional humor.

From Palpatine’s reappearance in the crawl, to when Rey was about to say “Rey Skywalker” I was laughing at how soulless and corrupt it dared to be. It was so shameless about everything it did. It reveled in it. I had fun watching the film eat itself alive. You could just see the puppeteers of every faux-emotional moment straining themselves, as well as you could their strings tied hastily to Carrie’s rotting corpse as a marionette. They couldn’t justify the existence of these movies at all.

Everything truly interesting and meaningful about the sequel trilogy was discarded in favor of what? Nothing here was genuine or good*. I’m only holding onto the idea that they made it as comically hollow as they did out of spite.

*well, save for babu frik. and genuinely threepio’s best movie imo

As someone that hates TLJ, I agree it is very odd to not logically follow on from TLJ at this point with TROS to try and salvage a narrative that could span at least 2 concurrent movies instead of this weird convoluted patchwork / director tug of war you get going on that ultimately makes the entire Disney Trilogy a pointless mess. Obviously they heard many of the criticisms aimed at TLJ but failed to understand the impact and lasting fallout from them which was that many fans have become outright apathetic to Star Wars altogether or entirely dismissive of the Disney Trilogy and you were never going to get them back into cinema seats anyway so why pander to their TLJ criticism to the point that you make the movie irrelevant to it’s own trilogy?

I like your line about watching the film eat itself alive and for me, I’d apply that to TLJ as well due to how meta it is. The whole trilogy is so self aware that it literally comes off at this stage as a spoof than any kind of respectful continuation to Lucas’s legacy.

This might veer a little off topic, but the biggest difference between TLJ and TROS for me is that their meta-natures come from different places. TLJ does it in earnest. Johnson is aware of our expectations, but basically begs the audience to scrutinize his work because there is something there. The result may be unwieldly but it’s not soulless. For as much as people say it ruins the originals’ legacy, it’s really just putting the same understood conventions under new thematic tests - by the end reinforcing Star Wars’ ideals of heroism and redemption through perhaps a now stronger, humanistic lens. He broke some rules, introduced some logical quandaries, but it came from a good place. And even if you disagree with his vision, I still felt like Johnson had a reverence for the franchise that permeated the film. Basically saying: This is why Star Wars matters, and how we make it matter moving forward. Like the capability for good in TLJ, Star Wars doesn’t have to be an exclusive club. It’s not a perfectly realized vision by any means, but the self awareness served a thematic purpose. Johnson’s vision at the very least had integrity.

TROS willingly shuns anything TLJ said that might justify why a sequel trilogy should exist, to vaguely placate fans. It doesn’t make any decision based on what it could mean or say about anything. Any exploration of why we should care is forgone to tie us onto a moving rollercoaster, with a villain audiences already know. The self-awareness is used as winks and nods. You can practically hear the “fuck it, this is what they want right?” It’s a product designed entirely by talking points we’ve all heard over and over again in the past two years. It’s cynical and manipulative. Where TLJ had a beating heart and lungs, TROS is barely a Frankenstein of calculated choices.

Pretty decent sum up.

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

I don’t but that the film on the whole is a rejection of TLJ but it most certainly a rejection of “save what we love…”

I mean really? “We’re taking the them”? Finn went totally off the rails. And you can see where it could have went, after meeting Jannah he should have decided to save instead of destroy, and help start a stormtrooper rebellion.

I have no idea how to fix this.

Does anyone have it all? Even Lucas himself failed spectacularly in most of his attempts. They just need to lower the bar enough that some Marvel nobody can make one and not offend anyone I guess.

There’s this talented director on the rise now I think his name is Ryan Johnson. Give it to him!