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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
Last activity
22-Jul-2018
Posts
9763

Post History

Post
#1225107
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

snooker said:

I really could come out whenever I want but I don’t want to deal with people being all overly supportive like ‘we’ll support you’ like no shit, Mom, you grew up near the Castro.

Maybe go casual and just start acting as if they already know, like you came out to them months ago and they just forgot.

Post
#1225027
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Jay said:

SilverWook said:

There’s a big difference between merely saying This movie sucks! and taking it out on the people who made it. When Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out, Trekkers were not screaming for Robert Wise’s head. Even the late Harlan Ellison wrote a polite, but negative review in Starlog. And this is the guy who often took potshots at Gene Roddenberry the way Stephen King hates on Kubrick.

Social media is the big factor here. It’s possible rotten fans may have always been with us. I imagine there were letters even Cinefanstatique magazine declined to print back in the day. There was that one SW blogger fellow who’s been blocked by Dave Prowse and John Williams on twitter for their behavior. Seriously, what issues could anyone possibly have with them?

There are ridiculous trolls, of course. That’s not what I’m talking about here. There are legitimate criticisms being levied against TLJ that are being attributed to trolls in order to hand-wave them away.

Think about what you’re saying. “[T]hat one SW blogger fellow” isn’t representative of half the fanbase. The people who harassed Tran aren’t representative of half the fanbase. It’s become very easy to paint anyone dissatisfied with TLJ using that broad brush, though.

There are Lucasfilm employees on Twitter right now trolling Star Wars fans and comparing the situation to GamerGate. Just absurd. If Twitter had existed back when Lucas released the SEs and he posted his famous quote about the movies being his and not the fans’ (paraphrasing), what do you think the result would be? If the creators are going to participate in social media and actively berate their critics, the social media mob is going to descend upon them.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TFA receives an overwhelmingly positive response from fans and everything is cool.

Are you new here?

Are you new to the internet?

This forum doesn’t encompass the entirety of the conversation, nor is it even a microcosm representative of the entirety of Star Wars fandom. It’s a subset of a subset. The discussion here may have become contentious, but in the rest of the world, by and large, the response to TFA was overwhelmingly positive.

That blogger fellow got into the credentialed podcast area at Celebration, which indicates to me Lucasfilm doesn’t vet these people very well. I wasn’t aware of Lucasfilm employees trolling fans, or do you mean Rian Johnson?

To say that Rian Johnson is trolling fans is to have a very loose definition of the word.

I think he’s subtly trolling. He’s too clever to come at people directly.

He’s too nice, you mean. Every time I’ve seen him give a “clever” retort, he usually follows it up with a more reasoned response to try to engage and explain his perspective.

The Lucasfilm employee who posted a selfie while drinking from a mug that says “fanboy tears” on it is trolling, though.

Except, you know, that that picture was from three years ago, before TFA was even out (let alone TLJ).

Post
#1225025
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Okay, well was I wrong? I’m not seeing the part in that tweet where he says that anyone who hates his movie is a Gamergate level harraser. He’s pretty spot on in the comparison.

Did you read the preceding tweet that he was responding to? It was about ComicsGate, another supposedly hate-driven campaign that’s being used to paint many comics fans with the same brush as GamerGate, with the usual shitstirring by the usual frauds looking for attention/money like Quinn and Sarkeesian.

Maybe he’s not doing it intentionally, but by drawing the comparisons to what’s going on with Star Wars, I find it hard to believe he doesn’t know who and what he’s inviting into the discussion.

You of course have a typically cynical take on these “gates” that I have no desire to get into you with. Putting that aside, whatever you think of the people bring attacked, there is no reason whatsoever to violently harass. And it’s beyond absurd to suggest that one shouldn’t call out violent harassment just for fear that someone else entirely might come in and paint all criticism with a broad brush. I’m sorry I have more sympathy with those getting death threats than those merely getting supposedly generalized. I don’t know why Rian should have to top toe and ignore the issue completely just because of how other people may or may not respond.

Post
#1225018
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

SilverWook said:

Jay said:

SilverWook said:

There’s a big difference between merely saying This movie sucks! and taking it out on the people who made it. When Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out, Trekkers were not screaming for Robert Wise’s head. Even the late Harlan Ellison wrote a polite, but negative review in Starlog. And this is the guy who often took potshots at Gene Roddenberry the way Stephen King hates on Kubrick.

Social media is the big factor here. It’s possible rotten fans may have always been with us. I imagine there were letters even Cinefanstatique magazine declined to print back in the day. There was that one SW blogger fellow who’s been blocked by Dave Prowse and John Williams on twitter for their behavior. Seriously, what issues could anyone possibly have with them?

There are ridiculous trolls, of course. That’s not what I’m talking about here. There are legitimate criticisms being levied against TLJ that are being attributed to trolls in order to hand-wave them away.

Think about what you’re saying. “[T]hat one SW blogger fellow” isn’t representative of half the fanbase. The people who harassed Tran aren’t representative of half the fanbase. It’s become very easy to paint anyone dissatisfied with TLJ using that broad brush, though.

There are Lucasfilm employees on Twitter right now trolling Star Wars fans and comparing the situation to GamerGate. Just absurd. If Twitter had existed back when Lucas released the SEs and he posted his famous quote about the movies being his and not the fans’ (paraphrasing), what do you think the result would be? If the creators are going to participate in social media and actively berate their critics, the social media mob is going to descend upon them.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TFA receives an overwhelmingly positive response from fans and everything is cool.

Are you new here?

Are you new to the internet?

This forum doesn’t encompass the entirety of the conversation, nor is it even a microcosm representative of the entirety of Star Wars fandom. It’s a subset of a subset. The discussion here may have become contentious, but in the rest of the world, by and large, the response to TFA was overwhelmingly positive.

That blogger fellow got into the credentialed podcast area at Celebration, which indicates to me Lucasfilm doesn’t vet these people very well. I wasn’t aware of Lucasfilm employees trolling fans, or do you mean Rian Johnson?

To say that Rian Johnson is trolling fans is to have a very loose definition of the word.

Post
#1225012
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

Handman said:

I’m taking a few classes over the summer, and one of them is this required communications course. Today, the teacher mentioned how a misogynist disagreed with a feminist’s position to “kill all men”. And yet… I feel like any rational human being would disagree with that.

Needless to say, I find it very difficult to take this teacher seriously.

Shouldn’t this have gone in your other thread?

Post
#1225011
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Okay, well was I wrong? I’m not seeing the part in that tweet where he says that anyone who hates his movie is a Gamergate level harraser. He’s pretty spot on in the comparison.

Post
#1224956
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

The scene ends with Luke refuting her statement.

Luke is the first in the scene to say, he cannot save Ben, so his statement that nobody’s ever really gone feels pretty hollow to me.

Like says he cannot save him, not that he cannot be saved. Big difference.

Criticizing it based on Carrie’s passing is unfair to say the least.

Considering TLJ was edited and released after her passing, I think it’s very appropriate. RJ was perfectly aware, that this is the last scene these characters share together.

Rian made the tough but absolutely respectable decision to keep Fisher’s work in tact. Considering as I said, Luke refutes the statement, there’s nothing about Leia’s brief doubt that ruins a perfectly fitting last scene for the pair.

Post
#1224947
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

The scene ends with Luke refuting her statement. Criticizing it based on Carrie’s passing is unfair to say the least.

Post
#1224943
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Post
#1224936
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Post
#1224934
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Um what?
Between 3 and 4 the Empire grows in power as does the Rebellion, Luke and Leia grow up, and the Death Star is finally completed after 20 years. All of these things were set up in 3, and in fact one of the issues people have with that movie is how much hand-holding it does to make the universe continue relatively unchanged for two decades.

Between 6 and 7 the civil war officially ends with the Imperial remnant being exiled to the unknown regions, a new First Order arises from this remnant, Han and Leia officially get married then have a kid and Luke starts to form a new Jedi order then the Solo kid goes bad and destroys the order and Han and Leia break up and Luke goes into exile. Oh and the First Order is being run by a totally new warlord who is strong in the Force but unrelated to the Sith, they’ve somehow found a way to build a weapon much larger than any built by the Empire at the height of their power, and they’ve infiltrated the Republic Senate so far as to cast Leia out and force her to start her own miniature Rebellion.

You’ve clearly missed the point of my post. As I stated, plot-wise nothing important happens in between III and IV (as obviously opposed to between VI and VII). But the jump is nevertheless much more jarring, for other (in my opinion) far more important reasons.

what reasons?

For starters, scope and tone are big ones. Plus there’s the whole issue of us knowing crucial aspects of the saga that won’t be touched upon for almost two whole movies. Amongst other things.

Post
#1224921
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

Post
#1224919
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Um what?
Between 3 and 4 the Empire grows in power as does the Rebellion, Luke and Leia grow up, and the Death Star is finally completed after 20 years. All of these things were set up in 3, and in fact one of the issues people have with that movie is how much hand-holding it does to make the universe continue relatively unchanged for two decades.

Between 6 and 7 the civil war officially ends with the Imperial remnant being exiled to the unknown regions, a new First Order arises from this remnant, Han and Leia officially get married then have a kid and Luke starts to form a new Jedi order then the Solo kid goes bad and destroys the order and Han and Leia break up and Luke goes into exile. Oh and the First Order is being run by a totally new warlord who is strong in the Force but unrelated to the Sith, they’ve somehow found a way to build a weapon much larger than any built by the Empire at the height of their power, and they’ve infiltrated the Republic Senate so far as to cast Leia out and force her to start her own miniature Rebellion.

You’ve clearly missed the point of my post. As I stated, plot-wise nothing important happens in between III and IV (as obviously opposed to between VI and VII). But the jump is nevertheless much more jarring, for other (in my opinion) far more important reasons.

Post
#1224893
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Post
#1224836
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

What what exactly was Palpatine’s backstory before the prequels? What exactly is his backstory in the prequels? That we don’t get information on Snoke is not exactly something new.

Palpatine wasn’t someone of influence until the prequels, and we got to witness him dismantle the Republic throughout the PT in great detail. With Snoke it’s sort of an afterthought. The guy undid everything our heroes fought for somehow, but that’s not considered to be of importance, apparently. It appears to me, that what mattered most is giving us a redux of the OT conflict, and the OT aesthetic with different characters.

That isn’t an accurate assessment of the galactic situation. It is clear from the setup in TFA that the Republic is not very strong and that the great Republic of old has not been recreated. So what our heroes were fighting for in the OT has never been finished. If you look at history this is what often happens. The first government formed after a revolution doesn’t last. Usually it falls and is replaced with something else until that falls and something stronger rises in its place. All we have on the First Order is they rose from the ashes of the Empire. Clearly the production is an indication that Snoke ended up in control of an old Imperial shipyard. Who Snoke is makes little difference to the overall story. That he was there at the right time and place to create the First Order is all that matters. The rest is just filler.

That he was there “at the right time” is contrived, and diminishes the entire story arc of the OT imo. The writers just pushed the reset button and pulled another “Sith Lord” out of thin air to get us right back at the start of ANH. The New Republic is a token effort, just like stating that Kylo Ren and Snoke are not Sith Lords. The New Republic is just there to be blown away, and never seen again, such that the Resistance can become the rebels, and the FO the Empire, whilst Kylo Ren and Snoke are completely indistuinguishable from their Sith counterparts. Lucas spent an entire trilogy exploring how a democracy got turned into an Empire, whilst setting up the rivalry between the Jedi and the Sith, and showing how a young Jedi turns into a Sith Lord. The ST gives us very little context, and makes very little effort to show us how and why we’re right back at square one after two trilogies of seeing an Empire rise and fall. Meanwhile Kylo Ren is just evil, because he’s a bad egg, I guess. He’s given zero motivation for turning to the dark side. Snoke had won his heart is all we get, and Luke apparently pushed him over the edge, because that’s what Jedi do, when you need another Darth Vader.

While the story works fairly well seen on its own terms, in my view it simply doesn’t flow very well from the first six films, and clearly isn’t very original, in that it recycles an awful lot from the OT both visually and narratively. The fact that so many things are left unexplained, and unexplored only reinforces this. Snoke is thus just another Emperor redux like so many other things the ST “borrowed” from the OT. This is the real issue here. By giving Snoke an original backstory, and by making him distuinguishable from the Sith Lords that proceeded him the entire events of the ST are elevated, because it adds history and context, thus allowing the Star Wars universe and mythology to grow beyond simply rehashing what Lucas and his contemporaries did better some four decades earlier.

After six films of stories and events just plunging us into another OT inspired conflict with little context to connect the dots is not going to work for many people, because they are already too invested in the universe, and the characters. Saying Snoke is used not very differently from the Emperor in the OT, is not a defense, but an admission of guilt, because it ignores the fact, that we have had fourty years of story developments, and world building since that time. If the OT’s resolution is important, then how that happy ending got unraveled is as well. To say, that it doesn’t really matter how Snoke and the FO got to undermine the New Republic, and why the New Republic allowed itself to be overrun, is to say that the OT’s resolutions aren’t very important, because another Sith Lord can be pulled from behind the curtain to undo it anyway to extend the conflict ad nauseam. By extension this also undermines the resolution of the ST, because of the precedent it creates. The next writer can just create another Sith Lord from whole cloth, create the Second Order from the ashes of its predecessors, and have Rey moping on another island, such that the next false prophet can repeat the cycle, no explanation required. The Star Wars saga has thus become the movie equivalent of the boy who cried wolf.

I was pointing out that in the pre-PT world we had virtually nothing on Palpatine. The two characters are not very similar other than a lack of background the first time they are seen. And a lot of the ST is based on what they did in the old EU/Legends. Building a new Republic was not easy and they had to content with remnants of the Empire, like Thrawn. The Disney era Star Wars movies have been getting a lot of inspiration from the Legends books, though they are not really repeating anything. Knowing what happened in Legends, though I didn’t read most of them, really puts the sequels in perspective. Where you are seeing as parallels to the original, I see more parallels to Legends. Snoke has more in common with Trawn in many respects. And Snoke and his New Order have advanced things and created new technology where Trawn was fighting with left overs. But then that is a difference between 10 and 30 years after ROTJ. But the ST was always going to be about the next generation of the Skywalker family and I suspect that Ben/Kylo is going to end up with a very unique journey. If JJ and Rian have both been working off the same arc for the characters, which seems likely, then the third act is going to make this a very different trilogy from the last two. The OT was about taking down the bad guys, the PT was about the rise of the bad guys. The ST seems to be about finding the balance again. And that feels like a GL plot line. His prophesy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force seems like the core idea of what we are aiming for now. GL always denied that the force should be like ying/yang, but what Rian did in TLJ was very much ying/yang in nature, down to the image on the floor of the cave. It seems to be the answer to Luke’s unanswered quest of how to keep students from falling to the dark side.

And as for parallels, the PT very much paralleled the OT so I don’t see the ST following suit as much of an issue.

How does Snoke have more in common with Thrawn? The only commonality is, that Snoke took control of Imperial remnants. Other than that Snoke is a dark side user like Palpatine, with a former Jedi apprentice, that he seduced to the darkside, like Palpatine. He physically resembles Palpatine with a deformed body, and even gets to repeat many of Palpatine’s lines from ROTJ, after which he gets killed by his apprentice like Palpatine, because of his arrogance, and his belief that he cannot be betrayed like Palpatine.

The PT had a number of parallels with the OT, but that’s nothing compared to the ST. The PT was aesthetically and narratively totally different from the OT. The ST tells the same basic story as the OT with the same aesthetics (albeit a bit modernized), where a small band of rebels have to defeat an overwhelming Force oppressing the galaxy, and a Jedi prodigy has to seek out the help of a Jedi master to defeat a former Jedi student, who has fallen to the dark side, and is now under the influence of a dark lord.

Palpatine seized power through cunning. Snoke and Thrawn through luck and being in the right place at the right time. Palpatine took over the core of the Republic and turned it into an empire. Snoke and Trawn take over a tiny slice and build it into something to threaten the New Republic with. I see none of Palpatine’s cunning in Snoke and all of Trawn’s arrogance. If you want to focus on the force side, Snoke can’t even properly turn Ben to the dark side. He’s not even evil enough to kill his mother. Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader. And Snoke isn’t thrown into a chasm, he is cut in half by a light saber. And Kylo isn’t trying to save Rey from Snoke, Snoke thinks he knows Kylo and fails to read his deception where there was no attempt at deception from Vader. Only in the very broadest of strokes does the PT resemble the OT, but when you get down to the details it is a very different story with very different motives and agendas. In ROTJ, Vader killing Palpatine was the end of the story. Kylo killing Snoke is only the middle of the story. The similarities of TLJ to both TESB and ROTJ were not lost on me, but I found the blending to be intriguing because it leaves me wondering where they are going to go next. In the OT at this point Vader was dead and the Empire destroyed. We are at a very different place. Snoke is dead and Kylo Ren is very much alive. But which side is he on? How will his story play out now? We are way beyond any parallel with the OT at this point. The parallels have been minor at best. More structural than story. What confrontation will Rey and Kylo have in the next film? It is uncharted ground and that is what makes the ST different and unique.

Spot on. I’ll say that how Snoke got his power simply isn’t relevant to the story that’s being told. It is, of course, very relevant to the story of “what happened after ROTJ,” but that’s not 100% what the ST is about - it’s just as much it’s own story as it is a continuation. I sympathize with those who expected TFA to be a direct sequel to ROTJ, but ultimately I personally don’t have any issues with their approach. The ST starts in media res with a lot of unknown happenings in the intervening years - in this way it much more accurately simulates the experience of watching the OT first, rather than the PT then the OT. Which I appreciate. I like that the trilogies are separated by more than just time - they tell different stories and some of the in-between needn’t be spelled out.

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#1224617
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Because talking here about topics that have their own sub-forums would make the split even more pointless.

every subforum needs its own bitching thread.

and then we can have one bitching thread related to the multiple bitching threads.

Or should we just have a bitching sub forum ?

We already do:
https://originaltrilogy.com/discussion/General-Star-Wars-Discussion/id/22

JEDIT: dammit jason

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#1224611
Topic
Episode IX Discussion <strong><em>Spoiler Thread</em></strong>
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ZkinandBonez said:

SilverWook said:

Chewie is likely safe. I don’t think Lucasfilm is going to want to revisit the Vector Prime reaction in this current fan climate.

Ironically, Chewie is probably going to be the only flesh-and-blood member of the original main-cast to survive in the new continuity.

I guess Chewie falls under the “don’t kill the dog” movie trope.

Yeah that, plus Chewie is one of the only characters who could continue to appear without anyone noticing the actor changing. And, since he’s a supporting character, he doesn’t face the burden of always (or ever) needing a compelling story arc in each film (like the droids).

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#1224610
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

I can’t comment on the reaction to TPM at the time, because I was a kid and only knew other kids opinions and we all liked it… but I do know, once I finally started going on the internet, the discourse about the film was overwhelmingly negative.

Honestly it still kinda is, but I feel like there’s now a pretty significant section of PT lovers out there (mostly people who saw them when they were kids too, if I had to guess).