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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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2-Aug-2020
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Post
#1348230
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

thebluefrog said:

OutboundFlight said:

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

Not even remotely true but okay.

ROS needed to be the second film–it clearly was a mishmash of his 2 and 3rd film ideas scribbled on one page, since ROS introduced so many extraneous characters…in the finale? If the 2nd film had at least followed naturally with the 1st, the new characters introduced in 2 would have natural storyarcs flow into 3, like Lando from Empire to Lando the hero in Jedi.

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

Post
#1348218
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Arguably ROTS would have been a lot more interesting if they didn’t line things up to a T for ANH. The approach with TFA is clearly trying to replicate that sort of en medias res feeling you get from being dropped into the world with the original film. It’s a different approach than what some were expecting but I think it’s a valid one.

Post
#1348212
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

I actually felt like there wasn’t enough world building. There was way too much exposition, but exposition and world building aren’t the same thing. World building fleshes out the movie’s universe, giving it the proper context. Exposition is an inconvenience, something the movie just needs to get out of the way.

In my opinion, a proper example of world building would be explaining the whole thing with Palpatine’s return. “Secrets only the Sith knew” isn’t a sufficient explanation. We need to know the broad strokes of how he returned, and why he can’t return again. Otherwise, it just feels like Palpatine can come back any time he wants.

That’s not quite right. Explanations aren’t necessarily world building. In fact having someone spell out how Palpatine survived is exactly what I’d call exposition, which is something that TROS tries to avoid as much as reasonably can (which is only so much).

For example, the First Order captain’s medallion is world building. Zorii saying “free passage through any blockade, landing privileges” that’s exposition.

Post
#1348192
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

There’s plenty of world building. Every scene adds a new element to the lore. It’s suffocating. Whether they explain how those elements make sense or not doesn’t matter.

I mean, if that’s the threshold, then every film has plenty of world building.

Well yes, they do. But TROS had too much of it.

Post
#1348190
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Hal 9000 said:

I feel a little more context about what’s happening in this world when picking up the story after 30 years, and after a trilogy set in the past that gave us a great deal of context, would have gone a long way.

I don’t disagree but I feel like the impact on the story on the whole was pretty minimal, whereas some people think it broke the movies or some shit.

JakeRyan17 said:

DominicCobb said:

World building is overrated. It’s one of the many things that killed TROS.

What world building was in Rise of Skywalker? Or do you mean in The Rise of Skywalker novelisation?

There’s plenty of world building. Every scene adds a new element to the lore. It’s suffocating. Whether they explain how those elements make sense or not doesn’t matter.

Post
#1348057
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread
Time

act on instinct said:

Yeah my feelings are it isn’t so simple as one botched opportunity, more the dam busting after a series of unchecked cracks that started to add up over time. One of the bigger complaints about TROS is the breakneck pacing, but consider all the elements unresolved from the previous two IX now had to juggle or otherwise ignore like the Knights of Ren. All while trying to balance an appropriate ending to the trilogy, the saga, and being its own movie. So for me while it’s not blameless and I do think TROS took the lazy way out, it’s a tricky situation and some of it lands on time wasted not establishing more prior when there was time to spare. “We’ll figure it out later”, then all of the sudden we’re at the finale and later became too late.

I don’t really buy that. I mean sure, there were plenty of unresolved elements, but considering TROS didn’t bother to resolve or really spend any time on most of them I don’t think that was the issue. Not to mention the film easily could have just been longer, TLJ had ten minutes on it and Endgame proved you could be 30 minutes longer than that and still make plenty of cash. No, the issue was for whatever reason JJ and Terrio felt the need to add in a million new elements out of nowhere that all needed to be set up and resolved within one movie, which is what really makes it feel so crammed (first act is full of new exposition, second act features all new revelations, third act has to wrap it all up). They shot themselves in the foot trying to outsmart themselves when they could have easily just stayed the course, so to speak.

Post
#1347549
Topic
Best Performance in the Original Trilogy
Time

I don’t recall Arnold saying that, at least not in his book. Regardless, whether he attended a protest or not didn’t matter, the issue with his eye meant that he was specifically advised against performing in front of stage lights.

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea that he decided to start phoning it in after he was “betrayed” or whatever. I don’t believe he was under any obligation to appear in any sequels at all.

Post
#1347540
Topic
Best Performance in the Original Trilogy
Time

ATMachine said:

Really? From what I’ve heard, Sir Alec didn’t really want to come back for ESB, and considered using an eye condition he had as an excuse not to resume his role. In the event, some of Obi-Wan’s lines were shifted to Yoda (as both Dale Pollock and JW Rinzler attest), and Guinness ended up filming on ESB for all of one day.

Not an excuse, it was a serious issue and they weren’t sure if he’d be able to film at all.

Post
#1347536
Topic
Best Performance in the Original Trilogy
Time

ATMachine said:

Peter Cushing is clearly having fun on SW in a way that Alec Guinness isn’t. Guinness a lot the time IMO is phoning it in, probably feeling like “why did I take this film, this is so cheesy, it’s so beneath me.” Whereas Hammer horror veteran Cushing is quite obviously having a blast and it shows in his performance.

Disagree completely. Obi-wan is supposed to be a serious character. Even still there are moments where you can clearly see Guinness has portrayed Ben with a good sense of humor. And he was downright furious at Lucas for killing him off and therefore cutting out some of his scenes, so I don’t buy that he thought it was beneath him. He was far too professional to “phone it in,” even in a genre film like this. Even by the time ROTJ was being worked on he was still pushing for more screen time and more stuff to do. Unfortunately he ended up just stuck on a log.

Post
#1347524
Topic
Best Performance in the Original Trilogy
Time

In my mind, there’s one that always comes to mind. It’s Anthony Daniels. He carries a lot of the first film and provides pitch perfect comic relief in the second, in a role that could have very easily been a disaster. And he really was a big part in establishing the 3PO personality we know, as Lucas had other plans in mind (used car salesman). Same goes for Frank Oz of course (lesser extent due to not appearing in the first film).

Cushing deserves a lot of credit for knowing exactly what film he was in and nailing it, but if you’re going the ‘veteran actor lends credibility’ route, the answer is obviously Guinness. The film doesn’t work without the gravitas he provides to Luke’s story. I think you could switch out Tarkin with a lesser actor but you can’t switch out Guiness with a lesser actor.

Ford’s skills are obvious, and of course Star Wars is nothing without the cool factor he brings. But credit due to Hamill and Fisher as well, they aren’t the best actors ever of course but they fit so well into those roles. Every time I see the audition tapes of actors they didn’t go with I’m reminded of that.

Post
#1347521
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

A note for the crawl, if Mustafar is to be included: saying Kylo Ren is journeying to Mustafar sets up a false expectation of what we are about to see. It kinda makes it seem like Mustafar is a real destination, rather than just a short stop on the mission. This is actually something the original crawl does well. “Rages in search…” pairs well with the montage battle, where we kinda get that we’re just like dropping in the middle of it, rather than expecting a full on scene of some sort. If that makes sense.

Post
#1347155
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

Broom Kid said:

Octorox said:
By removing it, you’re also robbing the movie of the only significant action setpiece in the first act (and arguably the only unique or visually interesting setpiece in the entire movie), which makes it feel like a bit of an exposition dump for the first 20 minutes or so. RoS as-is isn’t much more than a pretty roller coaster ride. I wouldn’t try to rob it of one of the few elements that works.

This would be my counterargument for keeping it too, but if the rationale is “I just don’t like it and I think it sucks” there’s really no way to talk someone out of that, haha.

Beyond that I actually think the biggest wound that will be felt in edits that cut the scene out is that with the music building up and the TIEs chasing after them, cutting there really feels like you’re abruptly cutting the sequence short.

Apologies for my contributions to this thread becoming less “Hal’s prospective edit” thread and more like the unofficial replacement “general edit ideas” thread, but I guess that’s one of the side-effects of so many very talented people congregating in here and making “what ifs” into mock-up reality at lightning speed. Forums are sometimes like that - you put up guardrails but when everyone at the party notices there’s a bunch of really cool stuff happening in the living room, people will crowd in there and start spilling drinks while they dance 😃

again, apologies. Thanks for hearing us all out and being so patient.

I’m sure Hal would be the first to admit that he’s encouraged and enabled these sorts of discussions. And some great stuff has come out of them too. I just think out of respect for Hal and thread cleanliness in general, once he says he’s pursuing a certain idea, it’d be better to move further discussion of it to the general thread.

Post
#1347150
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

Hal 9000 said:

I have no love for the lightspeed skipping scene, and to me it’s more flippant than the SKB magical galactic death beam. I know I’m a geek weirdo and people shouldn’t care about this, but to me it’s sooo bad.

It’s okay Hal, anyone who thinks you’re a geek weirdo for that can make their own fan edit. Like me!

Chase Adams said:

Hal 9000 said:

Yeah, this thread added 25 pages in the last week alone.

Exactly why I’ve been trying to convince others to shift some of these conversations to the ideas thread… It seems many newcomers can’t see the difference between that thread and a thread for someone’s specfic edit. 😐

It’s become an orgy of Mustafar establishing shots and fortnite broadcasts.

It’s pretty much been that way since the thread started. I gave up trying long ago.

Post
#1347023
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

DZ-330 said:

poppasketti said:

Edit: Though Hal and DominicCobb make good points about the spy message. Hmm.

I just posted an updated crawl that fixes this issue. 😉

A good attempt, but I don’t know if it’s quite there yet. I don’t really like the idea of a mysterious broadcast in general, and I think referring to Palpatine as a new enemy might be a little too big/confusing a concept for a crawl. Perhaps instead of broadcast it’s “intel” or some such. As for what he’s looking for on Exegol, I’m still a little stumped in general, but particularly here. It has to be specific enough that we get it, but vague enough that it doesn’t give it away. I just think introducing an element like a third party in the war might be a bit much. But maybe not, I dunno.

The other thing that would have to get changed in this restructuring that I don’t think people have considered, is that the use of Palpatine’s theme in the TIE fighter attack in the iceberg would need to be replaced.

Post
#1347002
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

Hal 9000 said:

But isn’t the Resistance disseminating intel they got in the first scene before the FO should have had it to begin with?

Yeah, unfortunately restructuring fundamentally doesn’t work for that reason.

Perhaps there’s some way to get across the idea in the crawl that that Kylo and such know exactly what they’ll find on Exegol, but it’d be tricky as you wouldn’t want to reveal what it was in the crawl.

Post
#1346965
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

poppasketti said:

DominicCobb said:

Personally I’d like to see the first RO one (coming in through the clouds) with the TIEs. I like what poppa did with the Swedish forest footage but I dunno to me the shot still doesn’t quite match either the Mustafar we know or the one we see in TROS.

I agree this would be the best shot. Unfortunately, it’s also the most difficult to paint out the shuttle. I may be able to try that sometime, but I have a few things going on right now! Just in case, though, can someone send me the shot in prores (or something else sourced from the Blu-ray)?

If anyone has the the 4K ungraded HDR stream that might actually be the best source, at least for the color correction. I don’t think people have realized yet how much these could help editors (think of the day for night scene in Hal’s AOTC for example).

Question: the shot through the clouds is very symmetrical and will definitely be recognizable no matter how you present it. Given that it’s not from a saga film I think it’s okay to be reused, but I wanted to check!

Personally since it’s not a saga film I don’t mind it. Plus with the color and TIEs it should look different enough. Or you could say it’s an homage.

“That is the burden of all editors.”

Sadly, I don’t think this should be a consideration in whether something gets used. The work is always appreciated, and fuels ideas and discussions that lead towards a final decision, but if it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t fit. I learned a lot from my former boss. We spent an entire shoot day getting one shot, and in the edit room he decided to cut it without hesitation. It turned out we didn’t need the shot and he was right.

Yep, this is why directors and other production members typically shouldn’t be editors on the same project. There’s a certain objectivity needed.

Post
#1346715
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (WIP)
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

DominicCobb said:

Not my thread, but if we were to remove Mustafar I’d much prefer starting the film at the point where Kylo’s TIE is flying through space with the Wayfinder, rather

Was anyone ever suggesting to open the film on Exegol, skipping the TIE beat?

Lotta people suggesting it in the past couple pages.

I’ve been saying to cut Mustafar since day 1, but never meant to suggest we pan down from the crawl to Exegol, I always meant for it to pan down from the crawl to see Kylo in his TIE following the Wayfinder to Exegol. Is the reason everyone dismissed this idea until apparently just now just because people assumed we’d skip the TIE beat, too?

I think it’s sort of a thorny web no matter which solution is used, trust me I’ve mulled over many different permutations.

Post
#1346701
Topic
<em>Star Wars: The Clone Wars</em> To Return With New Episodes
Time

My other hot takes:

  • 80% of the show is action scenes that never end
  • Obi-wan, my favorite prequel character, has a permanent stick up his ass and I don’t like it
  • Anakin is less whiny than his film counterpart, which is great, but still written unevenly
  • Ashoka didn’t become tolerable until Rebels
  • Padme is severely underutilized
  • Maul is a completely different character than in TPM
  • I didn’t like the ending very much (even though I liked the episode and the last arc in general)