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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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18-Oct-2019
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Post
#1297063
Topic
Small details that took you <em><strong>FOREVER</strong></em> to notice in the <em>Star Wars</em> films
Time

Broom Kid said:

Yeah, I just looked at the clip and I’m pretty sure this is Burnell Tucker in both instances. But the “It’s metal!” guy ISN’T the same Rebel as “Enemy Fighters” guy?

Star Wars
https://youtu.be/2WBG2rJZGW8?t=246

Empire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmi5sreXVMA

If they’re not the same rebel, seems like a missed opportunity.

FYI his “second” character in Empire is at the end of that clip, on the right of Rieekan. But yeah for sure, according to Wookiepedia I think the characters names come from the novelizations so probably at the time whoever came up with the names just had no idea all three were the same actor.

Post
#1297046
Topic
Small details that took you <em><strong>FOREVER</strong></em> to notice in the <em>Star Wars</em> films
Time

Broom Kid said:

Only just recently noticed this in Empire, but I don’t know if I really noticed it or if I think I noticed it.

The guy in Star Wars who says “enemy fighters coming your way” is, I think, in Empire too? As the same rebel?

I looked it up and apparently that guy’s name is Del Goren, played by Burnell Tucker. IMDB is showing that Burnell Tucker is also in The Empire Strikes Back, and I think he’s the guy who is monitoring the Imperial Probe Droid transmission before Han and Chewie go out after it.

Okay this is interesting, I never knew there was any carryover in terms of Rebel extras. According to Wookiepedia, however, bafflingingly in Empire he is not only not playing the same character from the first film, he’s actually playing two different characters, both who aren’t his character from the first film.

Post
#1296884
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

doubleofive said:

ray_afraid said:

exitzero said:

*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.

I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…

I don’t see why not.

Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.

Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.

I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.

But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?

I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).

We see women in the Rebellion in many different roles. Spies, gunners, and even Top Brass. Ady’s returning female voices to female pilots. Sure, there could be more, but female representation is clearly there.

Let’s say we see about a hundred people in the rebellion total across the three movies. How many of them are women? 4?

We see MANY more people working for the Empire. How many are women? None. How many are alien? None. How many aren’t white males? none. The comparisons to Nazism aren’t coincidental.
We see women featured in important roles in the Rebellion, even if we don’t see many. RotJ in particular seems to hammer this point.

The vast majority of Imperials we see are stormtroopers so we can’t tell for sure either way.

As for ROTJ, I don’t think adding one more female to the Alliance leadership is “hammering home” anything.

Post
#1296874
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ray_afraid said:

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

doubleofive said:

ray_afraid said:

exitzero said:

*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.

I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…

I don’t see why not.

Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.

Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.

I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.

But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?

I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).

We see women in the Rebellion in many different roles. Spies, gunners, and even Top Brass. Ady’s returning female voices to female pilots. Sure, there could be more, but female representation is clearly there.

Let’s say we see about a hundred people in the rebellion total across the three movies. How many of them are women? 4?

Post
#1296852
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

I think it makes more sense for stormtroopers to be drafted gender-neuttally, since they’re just faceless grunts that are nothing more than cannon fodder and sheer numbers would be more important than sexism.

It does make sense to me that no women would be in officer/command positions, though.

Certainly agree on the first point… but on the second, I think it could be a matter of debate if sexism even exists in the Star Wars universe? It’s definitely not something that’s ever explored. The EU made Imperial racial prejudice a thing but truthfully SW as a series has never really been about prejudice in that sort of way. There’s an argument of course that the villains are a mirror to the villains in our own world which is fair but, Devil’s advocate… the Empire being sexist isn’t a given.

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

doubleofive said:

ray_afraid said:

exitzero said:

*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.

I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…

I don’t see why not.

Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.

Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.

I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.

But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?

I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).

RogueLeader said:

I’ve felt having even one or two female voice lines could help make it clearer that stormtroopers aren’t clones, because if you just watch the movies you might not know. Or even if the male voices could sound more varied and different than they currently do. But this is a nitpicky thing.

+1

Post
#1296783
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

sansuni said:

exitzero said:
*Alter Vader’s line to say “Your Mother once thought as you do.”

Alright, I don’t agree everything you said, but this one is something I wholeheartedly agree.

As far as I can recall, other than the damned prequels, there isn’t a single mention of Luke and Leia’s mother in OT. Which is kind of weird in a way and it would be really nice have a little mention like this.

I wouldn’t want Vader to say “Padme”, but a line like “Your Mother once thought as you do.” would fit perfectly.

I agree completely. Even if it’s not for ady, it’s a change I’d love to see someone figure out some day.

Post
#1296677
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ray_afraid said:

doubleofive said:

ray_afraid said:

exitzero said:

*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.

I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…

I don’t see why not.

Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.

Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.

I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer. “Equal opportunity” does not necessarily make someone good. You can be an equal opportunity asshole, after all.

Post
#1296533
Topic
Dom's Useless Prequel Edits
Time

Well considering I’m nearing the finish line on ROTS, figured I’d finally share a cutlist.

(Keep in mind many - if not most - of these edits have been stolen from Hal9000, L8wrtr, aalenfae, and many others here.)

  • Scene by scene color correction and film grain applied throughout.
  • New crawl, and new main title recording (Williams performing on the “Hollywood Sound” album)
  • Trimmed superfluous and awkward dialogue in the opening battle
  • The vulture droid only fires two missiles - no buzz droids at all. Anakin gets them to blow each other up, set to the Rebel fanfare cue that used to accompany R2 taking out the buzz droid.
  • A classic track from the original film plays as the Jedi make their daring landing on the Invisible Hand and fight the battle droids.
  • Removed Obi-Wan leaping from his cockpit, and his little jump during the fight with the battle droids.
  • The Jedi do not encounter droidekas, and the elevator sequence is gone. None of the R2 stuff.
  • Dooku doesn’t do a flip, and Palpatine doesn’t warn the Jedi that he’s a Sith lord.
  • The music for Dooku’s arrival plays through the beginning of the duel.
  • Palpatine also does not make random sounds throughout the fight.
  • Cut away as the railing starts to land on Obi-Wan.
  • Anakin quickly decapitates Dooku right away without goading, but feels bad about it. He let his anger get the best of him, but while he notes that this wasn’t the Jedi way, Palpatine sets his mind at ease. Step one towards Vader.
  • The ship going lopsided has been trimmed. To get rid of the silly ray shields, the battle droids capture Anakin and co. while they hang in the elevator shaft (battle droid voices have been pitch shifted lower).
  • The bridge fight and subsequent landing has been completed rescored (with SFX recreated where necessary) with a classic track from ROTJ.
  • The whole scene of Grievous meeting the heroes has been tightening up and reorganized. Obi-wan interjects during, rather than after Anakin’s joke to Grievous, for a better comedic effect.
  • Trims made throughout the bridge sequence, primarily removing battle droid silliness.
  • Grievous says, “Time to abandon ship” as he escapes out the window.
  • Slight trims during the crash landing on Coruscant.
  • Added another classic track from the original film to score the moment after the happy landing (the transport flying through Coruscant and landing).
  • Jar Jar’s line is gone.
  • A slight sort of haze/gauze filter has been applied to the nighttime balcony scene at Padme’s apartment.
  • Removed the ridiculous “So love has blinded you?” back and forth in the balcony scene.
  • End the scene where Anakin tells Padme about his nightmare on the more ominous note of “We don’t need Obi-wan’s help,” rather than talking about it being a “blessing.”
  • The next scene is Anakin missing the briefing. He doesn’t ask if Palpatine getting more executive powers is a good thing. Anakin’s much surer of his opinions in this edit - the goal being, in every possible instance, when it comes down to Jedi vs. Palpatine he is firmly with Palpatine as a way to make his turn to Vader clearer (it’s a matter of allegiance).
  • The next scene is Anakin summoned to the opera. Cut out mentions of Grievous and Anakin spying on Palpatine to fit this placement. The idea here is that right away Anakin is given a solution to the problem of his nightmares. It is of course not within the bounds of the Jedi, but everything that Anakin experiences with the Jedi from them on only goes to make this option seem more viable. When we finally hear Anakin say “I’ve found a way to save you from my nightmares,” since it’s been so long before he told Padme that there’s such an option, we know that he’s fully considered the implications of that solution and is going to go with it anyway.
  • To sell this even more, after Palpatine’s line “Not from a Jedi” in the opera, we hard cut to the temple, where Yoda tells Anakin to, essentially, get over it (trimmed his excessive lecturing and his probing about who the dreams are about).
  • Next scene is the first “seeds of Rebellion” scene in Bail’s apartment, cutting the reference to Palpatine having control of the Jedi council (which hasn’t happened yet). It’s criminal how little Padme has to do in this film. This scene doesn’t accomplish much, but it does alleviate that to some extent. Placed here mostly to make sure it doesn’t feel too jumpy, going from Anakin in one place to another to another.
  • Next is finally the scene in Palpatine’s office where he appoints Anakin to the council. Reinserted a couple deleted lines where Palpatine criticizes how the Jedi treat Anakin. Palpatine: “It’s upsetting to me to see that the council doesn’t seem to fully appreciate your talents. They see you as a threat to their power.” Anakin: “I’ve sensed that.” To achieve Anakin’s line, I’ve overlayed his mouth from the deleted scene over the finished shot from the film (it’s the same take, they just digitally closed his mouth in the final version). This exchange helps to show Anakin has distrusted the Jedi to some extent since before this film.
  • Before the Jedi council meeting, inserted the “plot to destroy the Jedi” scene, but removed redundant lines that also feature in the later scene in the Jedi war room.
  • Trimmed a bit in Anakin’s appointment to the council. Anakin does not say he understands that this move by Palpatine is “disturbing” (he shouldn’t). His outburst is barely that, which makes Mace’s “Take a seat” feel more judgmental, and Anakin more reasonable.
  • Trimmed Anakin’s pauses in his argument with Obi-wan to once again make him more sure of his stance in all this.
  • Added a menacing underscore to the sunset scene at Padme’s apartment to highlight the tension between her and Anakin.
  • Added a wistful rendition of the Force theme (from the extended ROTS end credits suite) to score Anakin and Obi-wan’s final scene as friends.
  • After Obi-wan jumps to hyperspace, transition to the deleted scene of the delegation speaking with Palpatine in his office.
  • Transition from there to the next nightmare, hopefully highlighting the doubt about Padme that Palpatine is sowing by following it up with Obi-wan appearing in Anakin’s nightmare and him asking about if he came by.
  • Cut extraneous shot of CG gas attendants on Utapau.
  • Cut out Grievous saying that a volcanic planet is safe.
  • Cut out a redundant line (utilized earlier from a deleted scene) in the scene where Anakin informs Palpatine that Obi-wan has engaged Grievous.
  • Cut out Anakin saying he’d like to kill Palpatine (he shouldn’t). Instead, he just says he’s going to do what he’s supposed to (turn him over to the council).
  • When we go back to Utapau, we see the ongoing battle that originally played before Cody was given Order 66. Fits better here, before Obi-wan kills Grievous.
  • No overbearing Palpatine’s voiceover as Anakin waits in the council chambers.
  • Streamlined dialogue as Windu and his gang confront Palpatine.
  • Trimmed the lightsaber fight, including and especially Palpatine’s spinning.
  • Palpatine doesn’t use Force lightning until Anakin has cut off Mace’s arm, which helps give Anakin the appearance that Palpatine is going to be helplessly executed, and also masks the stupid “scarring” by transitioning to wrinkly face using flickering lights once he finally attacks Mace.
  • Anakin’s march on the temple is rescored with a classic Imperial march cue from TESB.
  • Easily the most radical cut in this whole edit, when Palpatine executes Order 66, we don’t see it enacted throughout the galaxy - only on the planets with the characters we really know (Utapau, Kashyyyk, and Coruscant). This sequence is rescored with a rendition of the Emperor’s theme from ROTJ.
  • Anakin doesn’t kill any younglings, we only see him look upon the massacre in the temple.
  • The Imperial theme from the original film plays while Obi-wan is avoiding clones on Utapau, courtesy of the Rogue One soundtrack.
  • Removed all of Yoda’s interactions with the Wookiees after Order 66.
  • The classic cue that accompanied the Rebel blockade runner in the original film plays when we see Obi-wan board said Rebel blockade runner (rather than the altogether unfitting heroic cue that plays in the theatrical version).
  • Bail doesn’t respond to Mas Amedda, and the video of Mas Amedda has a VHS effect to make it look more similar to the video chat screens from the OT.
  • Removed Obi-Wan and Yoda’s fight to enter the temple.
  • Added the cue from the original film that plays when Ben tells Luke about Vader to the scene where Obi-wan learns about Vader.
  • Cut out Obi-wan and Yoda talking about killing the Emperor, because Yoda doesn’t fight him in this edit.
  • Cut out Obi-wan telling Padme about killing younglings, for at least three different reasons.
  • Cut Obi-wan entering the closet on Padme’s ship.
  • Once again added the original Imperial theme from the Rogue One soundtrack, this time to the moment where Palpatine’s hologram tells Anakin he’s brought “peace” to the galaxy.
  • Padme doesn’t mention younglings to Anakin, naturally.
  • No showdown between Yoda and Palpatine whatsoever. It’s the Mustafar duel all the way.
  • Cut out Obi-wan dealing in absolutes.
  • Cut out Anakin and Obi-wan wrestling on the conference table, because it’s silly and it doesn’t fit.
  • No “It’s over Anakin,” no “high ground.” Just a swift de-limbing.
  • Removed Obi-Wan referencing the chosen one prophecy while Anakin roasts. Obi-wan only chooses to say a few words, which makes them even more poignant.
  • No reference to Padme losing the will to live. Any edit that includes this lie should be ejected into space.
  • Vader’s “No” replaced with the more visceral, guttural yell of the Japanese dub.
  • A final cue of the original Imperial theme to accompany our first look at an Imperial star destroyer.

This post is subject to editing (for typos and if I forgot something). But that should be it.

Post
#1296379
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance.

Well, they kinda go together. He doesn’t change his mind and say “I was wrong, the Jedi aren’t flawed,” but he does change his mind about them needing to end.

This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

Yes, but he doesn’t decide to build a new order, he leaves that up to Rey.

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown. I just read a comic about Kylo Ren and Snoke, and there’s more development of both characters in those 20 pages then there ever was in the movies. Such character development would go a long way in providing some much needed emotional resonance to Kylo’s betrayal in TLJ.

What do you mean, “unknown flaws?” The flaws of the Jedi order were clearly shown in both the prequels and the OT. They considered emotion to be a weakness, they focused more on “maintaining balance” than actually helping the galaxy, and their blindness to the world around them allowed Palpatine to take over. And Luke didn’t just magically change his mind because the writer felt like it, the advice of his old master convinced him to put the flaws of the old order behind him and focus on creating a new order. I don’t know where you’re coming from with the “no character development” thing.

Not just Yoda’s advice (though of course that was the final thing that solidified his return), but there are many moments that bring him closer to his final change of heart. It is a gradual development that takes place over the course of the film.

Post
#1296373
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

Because he is wrong about the Jedi and about himself. Changing his mind means allowing himself to be himself. Luke sees the legacy of the Jedi as failure, and his own legacy as perpetuating that failure. So he tries to move beyond his instincts. But though the Jedi often failed, it was that they kept trying to do the right thing that was important. Their failures are not what define them. Luke sees his solution as a long term play - if the Force were allowed to just be left alone, not controlled but any one order, then it might find balance and these disastrous failures wouldn’t happen. But the short term is important. People are in danger, and he has the power to stop it, so he should and he does.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown.

Because the story is not, nor has it ever been, about “the Jedi as a whole.” The story, in this case, is about a man overcoming his failures. The history of the Jedi is just a mirror to Luke’s own journey, to have him swear off the Jedi is for him to swear off who he is, because he believes who he is is a failure. But the lesson, like I said, that failures do not define you. When he “changes his mind,” it’s not him “recanting when it’s convenient.” It’s him finally overcoming his perception of himself as a failure enough to try once again (or do, as it were). To the extent that Luke’s journey has always been about “use the Force/let go/believe in yourself,” this is his ultimate challenge to overcome.

Post
#1296371
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Post
#1296366
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all, nor would I call any of his actions “stupid.”

In terms of regression for Han Solo - that’s the point of his story. Yes he’s gone back to do the only thing he was good at, but it’s a sham, and he knows he can only stay away for so long. Who he is underneath is a man who’s irrevocably changed from the smuggler we see in the OT. And as for Leia, did we ever see her become anything beyond a Rebel leader? You certainly can’t argue regression, maybe stasis in terms of status, but certainly I’d say her motherhood (and her explicit leadership of the Resistance) is a progression (for a character who never really had much of an arc anyway, unfortunately).

Post
#1296352
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

Broom Kid said:
The idea that Luke Skywalker became a depressive old hermit who checked out for a decade because he was so ashamed of himself and angry at losing touch with what made him “a legend” in the first place? That’s not blasphemy to me. That’s interesting. And the way it was done was not just sad, but charming, too. To a lesser extent, a similar thing was done with Thor in Endgame. And to a lesser extent, some of his fans reacted much the same as Luke’s fans have reacted: The decision to do it was, in and of itself, unforgiveable, and so anything built upon that (to them) broken foundation isn’t worth giving over to. All they see is the humiliation and the “disrespect” to such a strong character. They see that as a punitive act against their hero, and they basically just… stop there.

I don’t entirely agree this is the case. To some sure, but to many others the disrespect is not in the humiliation, or punitive act against the hero, it is in the fact that they feel, it has not been properly motivated or set up. To them it’s like the story telling them, Luke’s different now, deal with it, and if you can’t, that’s your problem.

Well it’s a different way of telling the story. From go “what happened to Luke” is the primary mystery of the trilogy. It’s not like we catch up with Luke right away and he’s different, instead we’re gradually given more and more information about where he’s at (literally and metaphorically). The fact of the matter is the trilogy took a very specific approach with the characters - the new characters are the center and POV, and while the old characters pop in and get their moments, it is not a direct continuation of their stories from ROTJ. The difference in Luke is designed to be jarring and hard to accept, and in fact they give us an audience surrogate (Rey) to express this exact thing. You’re not supposed to just “deal with it,” you’re supposed to wonder why it’s happened.

Whether you accept the explanations or not is another thing. But I think Broom Kid has a point that many probably just tuned out entirely because they couldn’t get past something like the “disrespect” of him throwing the lightsaber. While others were a bit more open to the idea and curious.

For me it is similar to having the PT end with Anakin the hero, and then introduce him as Darth Vader in the next movie, and then show a tiny ambiguous flashback to explain how Anakin is suddenly an evil mass murderer.

Believe it or not, many wish this was the case (to preserve the surprises of the OT). Personally I think, being that the films were prequels, the point of their existence was to give backstory to the mysteries of the OT - but because of that, they should only be watched after. Ultimately the ST, whether one agrees with the approach or not, is designed to replicate the feeling of dropping into a story where we don’t know everything that happened beforehand - much like the OT did. I’ve said it often before, but I think the real title of TFA should have been Episode X.

Post
#1296312
Topic
Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Finished!)
Time

RogueLeader said:

@Dom, we should bump your thread back up and discuss what you’ve done and more on what the original scene order might’ve been. I’m still wondering if Anakin was late for the briefing because he met with Padmé, does that mean the entire nightmare scene was reshoots?

I probably should bump my thread. At this point I’m one quick pass away from putting a pin in ROTS and finally releasing it for real (not just sharing workprint cuts).

As for the nightmare - no, that was definitely done during principal photography. The Making of ROTS book is decently comprehensive in terms of what was shot when (though I couldn’t locate the balcony scene when I was just skimming through it). One of the things though with the reshoots is in many cases it’s unclear if the scenes were written after shooting finished or were written before but just always scheduled to be shot after principal photography (because there’s definitely some of both).

I will say I may be wrong about the briefing, considering looking back in the book the general structure of that act of the film seems to have been in place since an early draft of the script - reunites with Padme > Grievous arrives on Utapau > nightmare > Palpatine appoints Anakin to the council (the briefing is not mentioned but still) - plus Obi-wan does say “you deserve your glorious day with the politicians,” so maybe the briefing is supposed to be the next day after all.

Post
#1296247
Topic
Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Finished!)
Time

Hal 9000 said:

That makes a lot of sense. Grievous receiving orders about moving to Mustafar always felt like it was moved up earlier in the film, since it’s a good while before he actually does.

Yeah, I was trying to follow the thread there to figure out what the original sequence might have been like but it’s muddied by what is or is not reshoots (if I remember correctly the balcony scene is one, for instance).

I feel like LOE reverts the movie to an earlier version, largely, and I’d love to see an older rough cut.

Same. At the very least I’m going to sit in my corner and hope and pray that at some point they finally release the Obi-wan/Padme deleted scene.

Post
#1296226
Topic
Star Wars Episode III: Labyrinth Of Evil (Finished!)
Time

Re: Bail’s apartment, just literally last week I changed where that scene is in my edit to before Palpatine appoints Anakin, and I fixed that error by cutting the line and just having him say “Now the Chancellor has appointed governors…”

One thing that just occurred to me, not that it should have any impact on your edit necessarily, is that Anakin being late to the briefing must have originally been placed after he reunites with Padme (“I’ll meet you at the briefing” being what Obi-wan says when they part, plus this is the only thing that’d actually explain why they had him be late).

Post
#1296119
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

DominicCobb said:

I’ve always thought it’d be great if there was someway to reveal that Padme = the Queen basically immediately, so that we’re never left in the dark and are able to follow Padme’s emotionally journey coherently throughout the film.

Certainly makes sense. You think just we as the audience should know, or the other main characters as well (minus the villains)?

Hmm…what if the reveal was as they were about to enter Mos Epsa?

Panaka: The queen wishes it. She’s curious about the planet.
Qui-gon: The queen doesn’t need to know.
Padme: I am queen Amidala.

I don’t know how one would address the queen’s body guard…

Unfortunately that whole section of the film relies upon Padme being just a handmaiden, not the Queen. Qui-Gon’s basically using the fact that Padme is unwilling to reveal herself to get his own way.

It would have to be some way that the audience knows right away, even if the characters aren’t explicitly told until later in the film. Usually a change like this is executed easiest in a crawl but that doesn’t seem possible here.

Post
#1296110
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show
Time

Honestly, after mulling over the potential for a Kenobi series for awhile now, it’s kind of hard to imagine it as a movie anymore. In my mind this should be a low-key serialized miniseries, without a lot of characters and locations - mostly just focused on Obi/Ben and his life. That kind of more interior and gradual sort of storytelling tends to play much better on the small screen when it comes to sci-fi/fantasy. A theatrical feature might give the temptation for giant blockbuster level shenanigans, which probably wouldn’t be very fitting for this story.

Post
#1296109
Topic
The ending reveal in The Last Jedi was very easy to predict.
Time

Thinking back to my first viewing, I’m not sure I’ve ever experienced a sequence that’s put me more on the edge of my seat than this one (nor an audience more rapt). There’s a lot of amazing suspense films out there of course (and many which are obviously superior to this film), but this is the true return of Luke Skywalker. Not only is it something I had anticipated for decades in real life, it’s something that’s built up in both TFA and TLJ, with the latter providing a real emotional heft to the proceedings (in terms of Luke’s character’s journey, and his confrontation with Kylo). To top that all off with a clever and exciting bit of Force wizardry really is the cherry on top of what is surely one of the best sequences in the saga (and probably my favorite of the ST so far).

Post
#1296077
Topic
The ending reveal in The Last Jedi was very easy to predict.
Time

Interesting I’ve never seen this quote

“[Luke] is basically tailoring this projection to have maximum effect on Kylo,” Johnson explained. "He knows that Kylo’s Achilles heel is his rage, and so that’s why he kind of makes himself look younger, the way Kylo would’ve last seen him in their confrontation at the temple,

I never looked at this specific aspect in this way but it actually makes a lot of sense, especially in light of Kylo’s first words to Lor San Tekka - “Look how old you’ve become.” Kylo’s changed so much in the meantime, but this old figure from Kylo’s past - the legacy he’s supposed to be supplanting - hasn’t changed a bit, making the threat of him that much more formidable.

I think the topic title is interesting “the ending was very easy to predict.” Sure, all the clues were right out there in front of you to predict… but did you? I knew something was up the moment we saw him (the hair) but I wasn’t able to figure out what exactly until the film revealed itself. The closest I got was when Kylo finally sliced through him (my thought - did he die already and now he’s a force ghost?), but when the real trick was revealed it was definitely a “holy shit” moment. And of course that’s what it was, a magic trick, and like the best magic tricks it occurred in plain sight.