DominicCobb

Bingowings said:

 

It would also have kept ESB's reveals secret.

I know that's not important to some people but the PT weren't actually sold as 'prequels' but earlier episodes.

 

I've been vocal about my disagreement with this line of thinking. I've been ignoring these types of comments because, honestly, people aren't going to change their minds. But I just don't see how that statement is true.

Granted, I was born only a few years before TPM was released, so I'm not aware of what sort of things were being said about the prequels during that 16 year gap. What I do know is that each PT film was advertised using as much Vader imagery as possible, i.e. they were sold as prequels. I remember that awesome poster of Anakin with Vader as his shadow; and I'm sure you all do too, it's probably the thing that got your excitement up most. What that ad promised was a prequel. A prequel trilogy was promised to us. Call me crazy, but I thought the whole reason we wanted to see those movies was to find out what happened before. I don't know about you guys, but the prospect of finding out how Anakin became Darth Vader was the single most exciting aspect of those upcoming prequels. People have said on here that ROTS was a fan wank because they showed Anakin turn to the dark side and don the suit. In my mind, it would have been a fan wank if we didn't see that happen.

But I digress. Where are we? "ROTJ is the best Star Wars film"? What? You guys are crazy, I'm out of here. 

Willow Creek (2013) 8/10 - Bobcat Goldthwait's new film that he just screened at my school. I didn't know what to expect, but I found it was very funny, original, and surprisingly suspenseful. It was kind of like Paranormal Activity, but with Bigfoot, and better in every imaginable way. There was a Q&A afterwards. I asked him why he wanted to make this movie. I guess he's always been interested in Bigfoot, and with this he wanted to see if he could make a suspenseful film in the vein of, say Tarantino, where nothing is really happening, but you're on the edge of your seat. I think he succeeded. I shook his hand after and told him he did a great job. All in all it was a really cool experience and I hope the film ends up with a good distribution. 

Yeah, I think it nicely sums up how dumb the galaxy shrinkage is.

Re: the battle: I didn't say the word "stake." Just said suspense. ROTJ isn't edge of your seat like ANH. It doesn't have to do with stakes, just how it plays out.

Re: chase: There are so many examples but The French Connection and Bullitt come immediately to mind. You got me on the speed aspect, can't think of anything of the moment on that end. But that aspect in and of itself does not make for the best chase ever.

Re: impscum: Still not sure what you're deal is; but thanks Ryan, because yeah, if you look at what was written and then my response to it, there is no arrogance intended. Just a playful jab.

^Image not working? I'm not sure. Anyway, here's the link

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24900000/Ties-star-wars-24990944-1900-1355.jpg

I understand you're being facetious and just asking for a rebuttal, but I really must. The ones I didn't respond to I either agree with or don't want to bother with.

Ryan McAvoy said:

- It has the best epic battle: Endor. Yavin and Hoth don't come close.

Not sure if serious. The combination of the three battles makes for something very epic, yes; but if we're talking ground battle - that's Hoth; if we're talking space battle - that's Yavin (yeah, I said it. Sometimes bigger isn't better. No suspense in the space battle in ROTJ, also it's one of three things going on).

- It's got the best use of the Falcon. Without the Falcon kickin' ass as the Rebel lead fighter in the battle of Endor it wouldn't be half as iconic. The camera work on the Falcon in ESB pales next to Jedi and the Falcon in ANH barely moves.

The Falcon's only use is by Lando in the big battle. Sure this is showier, but it's only one of many elements involved in the climax, and is therefor nothing too special.

- It's got the single most exciting chase sequence in cinema history: The speeder bike chase. A masterpiece of sound, photography, design and FX.

Obvious hyperbole, is obvious. Best chase in SW, but if you're serious beyond that you need to watch more cinema.

- It's got the best FX. If you think it doesn't, you are probably confusing memories of the SE in your head with the GOUT. Go look at the GOUT Bespin or many of the shots from the GOUT battle of Yavin.

Partly true. It does have some of the best FX. It also has some of the worst FX; e.g. the obvious matte paintings in the Rebel hangar, crappy green screen for the scene on the barge on the way to the sarlacc, etc.

- It's got the most 'scale' of the three. Epic locations, epic battles and a huge cast of diverse background characters.

Eh, I don't think so. The only planets featured are Tatooine, Dagobah, and Endor. We've already seen two of them, and Endor's easily the most boring OT planet. You might also count the Death Star, but yeah, seen that too. Battles are mostly epic, yeah. I would also argue that the cast of background characters is no huger than in the other two, and only slightly more diverse. Also, on the whole, the scale of the film is really quite smaller than one would hope. Yeah, it's larger than the other two, but not by much. This is supposedly the endgame in the war, and yet the entire battle is based around this one moon - and not even the entire moon, mind you, just this one small spot where a bunker is. Now I know how everyone here feels about the prequels, but look at ROTS. That film has an epic scale. ROTJ does not.

There are other points I'd be tempted to make, such as it has the best pacing but I'll admit that that could be argued against. F*ck it! It does! The opening to ANH is painfully slow and ESB is very static in the middle (Asteroid interlude while Luke is jogging round a swamp). Jedi's pace never lets up! xD

Yep, I get it. This one's a joke. 

emanswfan said:

darth_ender said:

Even an unfinished project can be an inspiration (see my signature regarding a far less finished project).  Keep your chin up :)

Oh don't worry, I plan to rehelm the whole thing after my PT is done.  i've never given up on it, I've just not been in a hurry for it.

Day made.

It's a small world after all, it's a small world after all...

SilverWook said:

dan76 said:

Bingowings said:

The PT is bad but there is a thick dense ground of much worse movies to dig out before you can put them in the worst films ever made strata.

If it wasn't for Mark playing Luke with all the gumption he gave the role in the previous movies ROTJ would play out much like TPM.

The tone, the pacing, the story structure and much of the imagery are nearly identical.

 

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me, in terms of design... everything. That's another thing about those prequels, the ships, costumes, the overall look didn't say "Star Wars" at all. More like Babylon 5 or some cheap tv show.

Making a good film is incredibly hard, it's almost a miracle when it works, and looking at the prequels and what they had going for them: A world wide inbuilt audience, loved characters, an amazing universe all set up by the first three films. I can't think of any film that has all that going for it, a huge audience wanting to love it. What does he do?

Kill the Force. Have Darth Vader build C3-PO. Set it up that at the beginning of Star Wars Vader is on a ship with his daughter, the robot he built as a kid, above the planet he grew up on, where his son now lives... Why not make IG-88 Chewbacca's cousin?

There is nothing of the spirit of the original films in those prequels, all of which are so flat, lacking in any dynamic story telling. The acting is uniformly bad, but that's probably because it was mostly shot green screen. They're a cgi mess.

I think Star Wars ended in 1983, but each to their own.

 

Funny thing is, Mad Magazine did an issue in the 1982 featuring Lucas' stolen notebook for future episodes, and their resemblance to the prequels is uncanny. Maybe they actually got their hands on the real thing? ;)

Read and be amazed...

http://imgur.com/a/Up1J4

Whoa, that's really strange. It's like a satire of the last four SW films - but before they came out. Which is weird because the only universe shrinking that happened in the two films that were out at the time was the revelation that SPOILER Vader is Luke's father (which actually isn't that much of a shrink because there was already a connection there).

Hahaha yeah, I was just joking, I know about the Matrix Grindhouse.

emanswfan said:

Opening Duel ROTS in technicolor clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXVpWgMRvg

Youtube description: "Here's a test video of making the opening duel look like it was shot on 35mm technicolor. All work is still in the works, though it is pretty close to the final product. Again, watch at 1080p fullscreen to see full effect)."

As always feel free to comment!

Looking great but Anakin looks much too orange at 0:01.

Palps: And now young skywalker... you will die.

*zipping sound*

Think of how cool a Boba Fett movie would be if it was more or less like an intergalactic version of last year's Dredd (without the blood obviously/unfortunately).

Don Jon (2013) 9/10 - Awesome movie. Stylish, funny, and subtly heartfelt. Worth seeing for sure.

^I hope that's Ady's feelings too. 

I'm in the camp that Shaw's ghost is as (if not more [but that's a different argument]) ridiculous than Hayden's. Anakin just shouldn't have a ghost, period. Another place where ROTJ dropped the ball in favor of picturesque, happy-feeling, "we're all done now," high-five, "we all did it guys!" everyone's okay (even the guy who sacrificed himself because this whole thing was his fault) ending.

Why not Jake Lloyd in the Vader suit?

Ryan McAvoy said:

Hoth-Nudist said:

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Bingowings said:

Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).

The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.

Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal. 

amen!  Im very fond of ROTJ, but I just feel that Luca$'s attitude for this one was: "This is the last one, lets just throw everything together and get it done chop-chop!"  I agree that there was some wasted potential.

I would argue that the exact oposit id possibly true. The way the whole trilogy comes to a climatic, neat and beautifully written conclusion is vastly underestimated.

It could have been very different...

Consider a film like TDKR that while generally good, doesn't wrap up that trilogy very well at all. Batman dies but then doesn't die to keep things open for a sequel. A new Robin character is introduced solely for a sequel setup. Batman does not defeat any of the four antagonists. There is no redemption, no real love story of any consequence etc etc

Or consider BTTF3 (A film I love!!) but that doesn't wrap the story up at all. A brilliant film happens and then there is an emotional scene at the end.

And I've already pointed out elsewhere what a collasal waste of the final chapter of the Spock Trilogy Star Trek 4 is.

ROTJ is a great ending to the OT. In a way it defines the OT because looking back all paths lead to it. It could have just been another film...

It could have been worse, you're right. I'll not argue why ROTJ is a disappointment any longer, all my grievances have either been voiced by my or someone else here or anywhere this argument has waged in the past thirty years. 

I will also not argue the merits of TDKR because this is not the place and you clearly misinterpreted the ending. I will also not bother with your other two examples because I agree with you on those. But the main reason I will not discuss those films is because they are not Star Wars. Yes, it could have been worse. But it also could have been MUCH better. To be clear, I love ROTJ. But this is a Star Wars film, and in Star Wars, the galaxy is the limit. There was a million places they could go. Sure, they stuck the conclusion landing better than most. But they still missed conclusive opportunities and, most unfortunate in my opinion, failed to match the amount of original content/concepts/ideas present in the preceding two films.

cain spaans said:

Alright I will type more professionally.

Close, but you're still missing a comma.

Totally in agreement with the OP times like a billion. 

Tyrphanax said:

Bingowings said:

Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).

The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.

Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal. 

Jaitea said:

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars Episode VII: A New Hope II

Star Wars Episode VIII: The Empire Strikes Back II

Star Wars Episode IX: Return of the Jedi, but Better

Hey Davnes007 already said that one (almost)

Post 20

Carp. Well, the last one is the punchline anyway.

Star Wars Episode VII: A New Hope II

Star Wars Episode VIII: The Empire Strikes Back II

Star Wars Episode IX: Return of the Jedi, but Better

georgec said:

DominicCobb said:

Gravity (2013) 9.5/10 - Amazing film. Just got out of an advanced screening. Cinematography is brilliant. Editing is superb - the pace is fantastic. Bullock is great, Clooney is great. Effects are seamless, 3D is pretty damn good. Suspense is top-notch. Message is perfect. Go see this movie (when it comes out next month).

This has been my most anticipated movie for awhile now. Congrats on the early screening!

You won't be disappointed.

Look, I know my Oscar history which means I know what kind of bullshit it is. But when you're movie wins 11 Oscars (tied for the most ever actually) then IT HAS TO BE GOOD. That's all I'm saying.

imperialscum said:

DominicCobb said:

Yeah, yeah, you're right. He's still super powerful in the story too, though (pulling down a STAR DESTROYER).*

 

*Yes, I realize this was a playable part.

It doesn't matter. The playable part are just details. The plot point is that he pulled down the star destroyer which is beyond stupid, to say the least.

It's stupid for sure, but no less awesome. The game's fun. No need to think that it fits into SW canon. It doesn't have to to. It's just a fun game using SW characters and settings.