DominicCobb

RogueLeader said:

It would GREAT if instead of Rey getting a pep talk from Jedi she doesn’t know, Rey and Finn’s minds connect through the Force, and Finn, the person she actually knows, gives her that encouragement to get up. It would sort of pay off all that build up, and Rey would realize Finn has the Force without him having to say anything.

I like this, but what if it’s the the DOTF climax, where she connects in the force with everyone? I’d love that (and had hoped we’d get something like this in the movie before it came out). Not sure how to accomplish (maybe it’s tied in with the fleet arriving?) but I like it. It have a nice meaning to it, she says “Be with me,” but she still doesn’t hear the voices of the Jedi, she hears her friends, and the people of the galaxy. That’s what the future Jedi need, not just the people of the past, but the present.

A third option might be Rey hears the voices of the Jedi and connects with Finn.

RogueLeader said:

It is just too bad there isn’t any pay off to the Force sensitive Finn stuff. If you cut out those references, and Poe being a spice runner (can’t recall if Dom is doing this), it ends up cutting quite a bit of Finn, Poe and Rey’s interactions.

I’m really not a fan of the spice runner story, but I won’t be cutting it just because I don’t think I really can, that being one of the reasons.

I will say Finn will definitely be force sensitive, regardless. The question is just if I’m cutting the “I never told you Rey!” stuff.

Hal 9000 said:

I love almost all the ideas you outline here. I don’t know why you insist on calling your project useless, and hope you’ll execute these ideas.

Ha! You’ll notice this one actually says “Useful.”

I think “my” project would benefit greatly from your help with some of these. (“My” in quotes because it’ll be tough for me to spend any length of time on editing, given my life situation now.)

Certainly having another edit to look at will help you see how you like concepts in action.

RogueLeader said:

To me, the lesson I think Rey is learning is that her emotions are natural parts of who she is, and she shouldn’t try to purge her fear or anger, but acknowledge them. This would be like assimilating with one’s Shadow, in Jungian psychology.

If anything, I would cut, “If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost.” To me this line is too reminiscent to this interaction with Luke and Obi-Wan.

Great post RL. Would be great (depending on feasibility) if he could say “If you don’t face your fear, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost.”

ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:

Yours is the fan fiction. That’s just a fact. George had a treatment, sure. But have you seen it? No. Ardnt starting working off the treatment, and thus TFA (and TLJ) feature elements of it. So the sequel trilogy as is is more imbued with George’s actual ideas than yours ever could be, just as a point of fact (not to mention JJ and Rian meeting with Lucas).

I don’t think TLJ does feature elements from George’s stories. I had always heard that Rian had made that stuff from scratch. But I’m afraid I have to disagree with you: our Sequel Trilogy will have numerous things the Disney Trilogy did not include. For starters, our main character is the Granddaughter of Darth Vader, not Palpatine. Pretty big difference.

When was it ever confirmed that Lucas’s treatment had Kira/Rey as a Skywalker? I don’t think I’ve seen that.

I have to agree with StarkillerAG; you’re coming off a little aggressive. I certainly don’t mean to start an argument, so I hope our disagreement ends here.

Not trying to be aggressive. Just find the scope of the thread odd and confusing. Putting blinders on about the ST as it exists is strange, I don’t get why you’re outlawing people to talk about it in here except because the mentality that ‘Lucas didn’t make it, so it’s not real Star Wars,’ which, no offense, I think is a ridiculous position to have (nothing personal, you’re far from the only person who feels this way).

DominicCobb said:

Putting aside the “Only Holy Lucas knows the True Canon” silliness, the idea that some rando fan has a better idea of Lucas’s true wishes is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying.

Dude… you’re kinda being a bully right now. That’s my view on the matter. I think absolute authority belongs to the artist.

JJ and Rian are artists, they have authority over their stories. Your thread is about George’s “Original” ST, which is fair. But all you’re doing is fan fiction. That’s what I’m trying to say.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

Putting aside the “Only Holy Lucas knows the True Canon” silliness, the idea that some rando fan has a better idea of Lucas’s true wishes is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying.

I said, tone it down. We’re all fellow fans here, and I don’t want the conversation to escalate into an argument.

Must have missed when you got promoted to moderator. My post was just to clarify that I find it silly is all. Nothing heated on my end, no argument necessary.

This is exactly what I’m talking about, your constant passive-aggressive and condescending tone to anyone who disagrees with you. You may not be intending to cause an argument, but people can be easily pissed off by such abrasive language. I’m not trying to be a moderator, I’ve just seen stuff like this happen before.

Uh… okay? I think you’re taking this too seriously. We’re just posting shit on a forum.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

Putting aside the “Only Holy Lucas knows the True Canon” silliness, the idea that some rando fan has a better idea of Lucas’s true wishes is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying.

I said, tone it down. We’re all fellow fans here, and I don’t want the conversation to escalate into an argument.

Must have missed when you got promoted to moderator. My post was just to clarify that I find it silly is all. Nothing heated on my end, no argument necessary.

OutboundFlight said:

Overall, canon is a stupid idea and anyone can do as they please.

Exactly.

Putting aside the “Only Holy Lucas knows the True Canon” silliness, the idea that some rando fan has a better idea of Lucas’s true wishes is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying.

ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:

There is no “proper canon.” That’s bullshit. George was constantly changing his mind. He had approximately 500 different ideas for the sequel trilogy over the years that were probably incredibly contradictory (as the PT often was to the OT).

Please refrain from becoming so meta that you end up saying things that make no sense. There is a proper canon. We have an artist and his creation. Anything he wants to do or approves of is canon. Let’s not confuse ourselves.

Yes, there is a “proper canon.” It includes the films made by Disney. Lucas sold the rights to the series to them, and artists continued the story, whether you personally like it or not.

I also prefer to see it as George coming up with ideas constantly instead of constantly changing his mind. When I think of the way the Star Wars story came about, I can admit that it did happen, but I don’t think it happened in the way you’re trying to prove.

He was changing his mind constantly. You can choose to see it a different way if you please, but the simple fact of the matter is things changed over time. It didn’t come fully formed from go. It took time and changes - that’s the actual creative process.

DominicCobb said:
This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Of course. I never said it wasn’t. I’m sorry you came into here thinking it was otherwise. I should’ve been more clearer. I would like to justify our “fan fiction” though: at least it’s more rooted in the creator’s ideas than Disney’s trilogy was. So which one is the real fan fiction?

Yours is the fan fiction. That’s just a fact. George had a treatment, sure. But have you seen it? No. Ardnt starting working off the treatment, and thus TFA (and TLJ) feature elements of it. So the sequel trilogy as is is more imbued with George’s actual ideas than yours ever could be, just as a point of fact (not to mention JJ and Rian meeting with Lucas).

This should be in the “Screenwriting and Rewritting” forum, not this one.

ShamanWhill said:

DominicCobb said:

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

I don’t know if it’s “unhealthy”. It worked for 1000 years.

Try not to misconstrue Anakin’s mistakes as a result of the Jedi way. That wasn’t the case at all. Anakin was brought up the most un-Jedi way ever. He received late training. He had attachments to his mother. He disobeyed the Jedi code and got married. And he spent the majority of his Jedi life in battle. Of course he would turn to the Dark Side. He doesn’t even know what it means to be a Jedi.

ShamanWhill said:

Hey everyone!

I’ve been enjoying reading all the comments so far. However, I have noticed a particular point in many comments that I feel the need to address: the Disney Trilogy being used as proof to a point.

I’m sorry everyone, but this thread was created to inspire a recreation of George’s vision for the Sequels, and in order to do that, we can only reference Episodes I-VI. A lot of people have been defining the Force off of what someone in the Disney Trilogy has said, and I admire everyone’s passion about this, but I regret to inform you that this is not the place for that declaration. The ways in which the Force are discussed in the Disney sequels are contradictory to the ways in which the Force is discussed in George’s Star Wars Saga. So please refrain the future from referencing those movies. This thread is a place for us to invent what the proper cannon should have been. Thank you!

Even if it was poorly conveyed, George’s intention was to critique the Jedi way. The Jedi rip a child away from his mother, and it leads him to the dark side. That’s the fault of the Jedi. In the end, when Vader is redeemed and the Sith destroyed, it is because he loved his son. The Jedi were wrong, and Luke was right. That is the point Lucas was trying to make, and the sequel trilogy isn’t doing anything but continuing his ideas in that regard.

There is no “proper canon.” That’s bullshit. George was constantly changing his mind. He had approximately 500 different ideas for the sequel trilogy over the years that were probably incredibly contradictory (as the PT often was to the OT). This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Regardless of whether you felt that they gave “every indication that a redemption would not happen,” all evidence points to that being literally the only thing they had planned from the start and never strayed from.

So that’s why they fired Trevorrow. Huh.

Perhaps, although even in Trevorrow’s scripts he was redeemed in the end (even if it felt like an afterthought).

OutboundFlight said:

All due respect: I’ve never understood this argument. I understand Taoist traditions, but I can’t comprehend a “good dark side user”. Love and passion aren’t equivalent to darkness, they just lead you to it if you aren’t careful.

Dare I say it, I don’t think the Jedi did anything wrong during the Clone Wars. A genius outsmarted them. Had Palpatine not been involved Anakin would have either peacefully left their order or broken off with Padme and firmly joined their cause. I just can’t see the Jedi losing the PT because they were “too good”.

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

Regardless of whether you felt that they gave “every indication that a redemption would not happen,” all evidence points to that being literally the only thing they had planned from the start and never strayed from.

RogueLeader said:

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Just wanted to lay out a few of the options I’ve heard floating around regarding Rey’s story in the movie, as well as share some bigger thoughts regarding Ascendent.

So, these are some of alternative reveal options I’ve heard so far:

1. Rey Palpatine (Original)
2. Rey Nobody, Palpatine saw her future and ordered to have her killed/taken.
3. Not Palpatine’s biological grandchild, but created her through the dark side, like an anti-Chosen One.
4. Rey Nobody, but she killed her parents. (Remove connection with Ochi).
5. Rey Nobody, but Kylo killed her parents.
6. Rey Nobody, and the main conflict deals with destiny and visions of her future.

A 7th option might be worth trying with initial edits is to just try and cut everything necessary to remove the Rey Palpatine connection, and don’t try to set up some kind of dramatic reveal. At this point we’re all trying to replace the Rey Palpatine reveal with something else, but the challenge with that will be to create new shots and dialogue that fit these alternative narratives. Something like this idea would mostly require making Rey and Kylo’s Kijimi/Destroyer and hangar interactions more action-focused and brief, as well as cutting other brief lines throughout the film.

So basically, the objective could be to collaborate on making only the most necessary changes to remove Rey Palpatine, and make other popular changes, basically as an edit that addresses the major gripes people had with the movie, without becoming too radically different from what we got.

The thing is, at least from my perspective, option 2 and option 7 are essentially the same thing. Option 2 is what you get when you cut out Palpatine being Rey’s grandfather but leave everything else. If you wanted to also remove Palpatine seeing her future and ordering her to be killed, you’d end up with a more drastic/radical edit than option 2, because you’d in effect be removing everything from Kylo and Rey’s star destroyer interactions rather than just some of it.

Maybe I’m biased because it’s the option I’m going with, but the reason it’s the option I’m going with is that it seems like the absolute easiest way to do it.

Yes, I suppose that is true. One of the stronger arguments to keep that connection is the fact we see Ochi’s ship in TFA, and if you removed the connection between Rey’s parents and Ochi, you would also have to remove the shot of that ship in the TFA vision. It also has similarities to Option 6, but with the additional backstory, right? Because basically your idea was that Palpatine saw her become powerful in the dark side, and essentially a rival, which is why he wants her killed. Option 6 basically has that as more of a recent vision, whereas Option 2 would make it something Palpatine foresaw many years before.

Pretty much. Your description of option 6 is a little vague and I’m not sure what that’d entail without a longer explanation so I can’t really compare.

Like you said, the two best things Option 2 has going for it is that is a simple way to remove Rey’s familial relationship to Palpatine, and it also requires the least amount of changes for the movie. Although I do think it is an improvement over Rey Palpatine, it stills hurts Rey’s characterization in two ways: One, it makes Rey predestined for something special even before her journey begins, which I feel slightly comprises the Rey Nobody narrative we’re trying to preserve. Secondly, it retcons the idea that Rey’s parents threw her away like garbage, and we find out that they actually loved her very dearly and “sold her to protect her”. Rey having shitty parents was something I felt some fans likely related to, so I think it is a bit unfortunate to turn that around and basically give her the Harry Potter origin of loving parents dying to protect their child.

Too true, unfortunately. I plan to get rid of the ‘kindly parents’ aspect at least but there’s no way around the loss of Rey Random in this version.

So yes, I do think you’re right that it is probably the idea that requires the least amount of changes, but I feel like it still comes with its own set of problems.

They all do, I’m afraid. Hopefully with time and testing and collaboration we can figure out which is not only the most feasible and presentable solution, but also the most meaningful.

RogueLeader said:

Just wanted to lay out a few of the options I’ve heard floating around regarding Rey’s story in the movie, as well as share some bigger thoughts regarding Ascendent.

So, these are some of alternative reveal options I’ve heard so far:

1. Rey Palpatine (Original)
2. Rey Nobody, Palpatine saw her future and ordered to have her killed/taken.
3. Not Palpatine’s biological grandchild, but created her through the dark side, like an anti-Chosen One.
4. Rey Nobody, but she killed her parents. (Remove connection with Ochi).
5. Rey Nobody, but Kylo killed her parents.
6. Rey Nobody, and the main conflict deals with destiny and visions of her future.

A 7th option might be worth trying with initial edits is to just try and cut everything necessary to remove the Rey Palpatine connection, and don’t try to set up some kind of dramatic reveal. At this point we’re all trying to replace the Rey Palpatine reveal with something else, but the challenge with that will be to create new shots and dialogue that fit these alternative narratives. Something like this idea would mostly require making Rey and Kylo’s Kijimi/Destroyer and hangar interactions more action-focused and brief, as well as cutting other brief lines throughout the film.

So basically, the objective could be to collaborate on making only the most necessary changes to remove Rey Palpatine, and make other popular changes, basically as an edit that addresses the major gripes people had with the movie, without becoming too radically different from what we got.

The thing is, at least from my perspective, option 2 and option 7 are essentially the same thing. Option 2 is what you get when you cut out Palpatine being Rey’s grandfather but leave everything else. If you wanted to also remove Palpatine seeing her future and ordering her to be killed, you’d end up with a more drastic/radical edit than option 2, because you’d in effect be removing everything from Kylo and Rey’s star destroyer interactions rather than just some of it.

Maybe I’m biased because it’s the option I’m going with, but the reason it’s the option I’m going with is that it seems like the absolute easiest way to do it.

idir_hh said:

It could be illustrated this way: Ochi’s ship flies followed by lighting -lightning circulates the ship -fade to black with crash land SFX.

Putting aside RL’s point above, why is Ochi involved at all?

idir_hh said:

It doesn’t necessarily have to blow up, it can get electrocuted - frying its passengers- and crash land.

Which would make it an idea that is significantly harder to accomplish.

idir_hh said:

Lego sw the skywalker saga, lego sw TFA, the battlefront games and toys might have some usable audio for Kylo. I think having Jakku instead of Passana in the third act of the ST would make Rey’s arch go full circle, intercut the flash-back of her electrocuting Ochi’s ship with her blowing up Chewies transport, I think having the Ochie’s ship from the flash back right beside her as she does this is a narrative opportunity that should be taken.

It doesn’t make sense if it’s the same ship though, because in this version she blew it up.

In my mind, there’s really only two main issues. Ochi’s ship matching the ship in Rey’s flashback, and Kylo’s dialogue. Visually change the look of the ship in the flashback, and untangling the rest of the parents/Ochi connection is simple - Rey doesn’t mention recognizing the ship, Ochi has nothing to do with her parents, we don’t see him kill her parents in the flashback. The dagger doesn’t trigger her flashback in the existing film anyway, it’s Kylo saying something like “remember them” while they’re fighting.

In effect you’d just remove Palpatine’s involvement in her parents death at all. So Kylo brings up her parents to remind her that she actually killed them (implied that Palpatine told him), and uses it as fuel to get her to join him on the dark side. Palpatine is only referenced as the thing they need to join together to beat. Some of the dialogue to fit this is already there, but there’ll also need to be some extra Kylo dialogue to do some heavy lifting. The question is if that dialogue can actually be cobbled together with what exists out there.

idir_hh said:

I think it would put Rey on an even footing with kylo on an emotion level, in the hanger scene you can have Kylo tell Rey “we are heirs of the darkside and we will take it’s throne” really lean in on the similarities between them -the “dyad”. this would make the ending far more impactfull (especially if we make ben live) as we have them both reject their innate darkness and begin a new future with the light- it rhymes.

I’d be careful to use the word “heir” in a Rey Nobody edit in that context.

krausfadr said:

Well idir_hh had a great idea about Rey having killed her parents. If this is done along the lines of her parents being scumbags who abandoned her then this would fit nicely with Rey Nobody. She killed her crappy parents, blocked the memory, and waited for them to return.

It’s a decent idea (I think I remember it being tossed around awhile ago). It certainly feeds into Rey fearing her dark side-ness. If I remember correctly, there’s a moment where Rey says “He killed my parents.” You could probably swap “he” for “I” and the mouth movement would still fit.

jarbear said:

Ultimately the issue was lack of direction and not having a strong lead to oversee the direction of all three movies to make sure they are cohesive … instead of leaving it up to each director to do whatever they heck they want regardless of what happened. It’s like the opposite of Marvel’s style, which is why the Marvel cinematic universe is working.

Marvel actually does pretty much the same thing.

Anyway, not to derail this into a discussion that doesn’t fit the thread for this fan edit as opposed to the other discussion threads, I am curious if any new ideas has come up with attempting a realistic Rey Nobody. I am on the fence still about it, but curious if there is any decent leads.

I don’t know about new ideas, but I have a pretty ironed out plan for it. Of course it’s all just on paper for now. How convincing it or other solutions end up being will probably have to wait until we can see them in action.

pleasehello said:

Broom Kid said:

Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

Thanks for saying something to this effect. I appreciate the linked interview with Rian Johnson, but the “article” reads more like a fan forum complaint:

“However, radically changing characters that are part of a much larger narrative doesn’t work on audiences. It doesn’t work with Hux and it most certainly doesn’t work on Luke Skywalker…”

This is what passes for journalism now. Give me a break.

I honestly didn’t even go through the link. I already saw the interview and thought his comments were spot on. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that obnoxious fans and fansites have twisted his words to mean “I hate Star Wars and Star Wars canon.” These are the same kind of people who would like for us to believe that him and Mark Hamill passionately despise each other. They live in an alternate universe where Rian is some sort of diabolical maniac whose sole purpose in life was to give fans the middle finger.

FreezingTNT2 said:

TIL* Rian Johnson did not really care about the Star Wars canon

*It means “today I learned”.

This is why Rian made the best SW film since Empire. He fundamentally understood something Lucas eventually lost sight of.

captainsolo said:

ROTJ has less intricate lighting for sure and you can tell there was less time spent on it especially in Imperial set interiors. The film stock is improved but it never has the wow factor of SW or ESB despite being made by a team of two of the best British cameramen then working. I’d chalk it up to production interference and a lack of desire to be artistic like ESB because George hated spending all the time and money on that film when they could just do it fast.

The Making of book has some possible answers. Marquand talks about how often the set up would get thrown out the window because George would add cameras. Lucas is very much a ‘figure it out in the edit’ kind of guy, and he wanted a lot of coverage on the film, and would often add them to set ups himself and tell Marquand “don’t worry about it.” Sometimes this meant up to five cameras shooting at once, if I’m remembering correctly. This leads of course to some flat lighting and also some cameras being forced to change their position or composition so that the other cameras didn’t end up in the frame.

jarbear said:

The main issue with have Kylo be the killer of her parents doesn’t really help with anything in my mind personally.

His goal is to have Rey on his side. Would using the direction of “Oh yeah, I killed Han Solo, my father who you liked. Also, I tried to kill Luke Skywalker … but too bad he was a Force Hologram. Oh yeah, I killed your parents too. Wanna join me and make out?”

I just … don’t see how that helps with anything with whatever motivation the route a person wants to go.

I was about to post the same thing. I’m not sure what is gained by the idea.