DominicCobb

Handman said:

NeverarGreat said:

I thought there was a good point about villains in this article:

“Our current reality is a complicated one, colored in shades of gray, and we’re well past the fairy-tale idea that in this world there is good and there is evil just because. Movie villains that are simply cackling wrongdoers in this day and age register as false.”

Maybe this is one reason why people have so much of a problem with paltry and secondhand Snoke character elements lifted from the Emperor - the Emperor was a villain from a more morally polarized age.

I call bullshit on that. Star Wars was meant to be a fairytale amidst all the morally gray films we were getting in the 70s. It was never meant to parallel reality. Why should it?

That’s not exactly correct, the goal was more so to bring back fun into cinemas, while all the other films were dreary and depressing.

Nowadays, things are different. In the multiplexes you’ve got plenty of Star Wars-esque fun entertainment. Which means it’s time for SW itself to upgrade past unambiguously evil villains (the kind which have taken a toll on stuff like the MCU for years).

Not to mention, from the beginning George was inspired by real life politics (Nixon, Vietnam) so I don’t necessarily think telling a morally black vs white story was ever the main goal (there are plenty of things in the OT that don’t quite adhere to that anyway). Obviously the idea was always for the films to reward morality and decency and selflessness and compassion, but that doesn’t mean they had to be so strictly moral all the way through.

Hardcore Legend said:

Collipso said:

What’s the problem with Rey’s vision of seeing her parents leave in a spaceship? I’m sure that would be extremely traumatic. Why do they have to be important people simply because she saw them leaving? Yes, the way it was setup left the audience wondering who are those people, and if we knew them. But the characters weren’t giving any fucks at all, except for Rey. I don’t see what’s the big deal about it. Simply because we saw them leave, it doesn’t make them more important or less, or changes who they are.

They were junkers that sold her for beer money but had a fancy ship they could leave the planet on? I guess they could have sold her for passage off the planet but Kylo says they are buried there on the planet.

I assumed the ship crashed. I honestly didn’t even consider it a potential discrepancy, I mean I suppose there is room for different interpretations (and who knows maybe JJ will incorporate the parents somehow?) but either way I don’t think it’s that big a deal.

Furthermore, it is implied Kylo knows her (or at least JJ was leaning that way). Besides the “what girl” line, in the novelization he says to her in the forest “it IS you!”

“What girl” is precisely because he doesn’t know her - “why is there someone else on Jakku who would be helping the droid escape and a kid, no less?”

When he says “It is you” he’s referring to the awakening he and Snoke felt. This is really the only reasonable interpretation in the context of not only TLJ but just TFA by itself. The line doesn’t make sense in any other way, unless you’ve built up an elaborate alternate completely unspoken of series of events in your head. (It’s likely they cut it out of the film because people would read things into it that weren’t there)

No one said Fett is in this.

I know they kept Lumpy, at least.

Collipso said:

Regarding Grievous-Anakin interactions, I think Dom edited their scene making the joke Anakin makes quite funnier than its original version. If it interests you, you could check it out on his thread and see if he approves.

Hal’s free to use anything he wants from my edit, especially that, considering I stole it from someone else (who, though, I can’t remember).

Could you also upload the preceding scenes on Alderaan so I have the exact source to go off in matching the colors?

I can probably help with the color correction on those scenes.

Mocata said:

I think the quote from Mark Hamill was “Good God, they’ve put me on steroids!” but here it’s “Me? I wish!” http://www.starwars.com/news/force-throwback-the-first-modern-star-wars-action-figures

I don’t remember the sabers being this long, but the extra blasters were way too big and the plastic was always bent.

Damn, I actually had all of those when I was a kid (though I assume there were more in that line than what’s in that article?).

suspiciouscoffee said:

I can’t wait for a year and a half of people complaining about how they “ruin” the Kessel Run or something.

Can’t show the Kessel Run without someone complaining that either A) they used parsecs as a unit of time or B) they didn’t use parsecs as a unit of time.

I for one don’t give a shit.

Yeah, lots of people love Jumanji, which shouldn’t make the new movie’s success a surprise. I mean, I don’t get why they like Jumanji, but I get that they like it.

Two great takes on Luke Skywalker here:

https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker

https://www.tor.com/2018/01/04/luke-skywalker-isnt-supposed-to-be-nice/

and a cool article on the score:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-field-guide-to-the-musical-leitmotifs-of-star-wars

I was thinking kinda the same.

If Solo is going to have an American Graffiti sort of feel to it, then the Ron Howard decision is really not a bad move.

Zak fett said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

The single best line in the film (a lot of which has to do with delivery, as with most great lines) is from Kylo Ren:

“Blast that piece of junk
OUT OF THE SKY”

I liked the significance he put into that line also.

I think he knew that it was The Millennium Falcon

No way how

The single best line in the film (a lot of which has to do with delivery, as with most great lines) is from Kylo Ren:

“Blast that piece of junk
OUT OF THE SKY”

Mrebo said:

I think we better just heed Wook’s friendly suggestion. Not worry about what side has more firepower or something.

Literally the whole point of my post was that whenever the term gets brought up, someone will take issue with it, so we just shouldn’t bring it up, which is pretty much exactly what Wook suggested.

Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

Why is it so hard to discuss the legitimate question of Rey’s abilities without using an offensive term to do it?

Because there’s nothing inherently offensive about it! I’m sorry, Frink, but I really strongly disagree on this one.

But a lot of people are on Frink’s side about this.

Fact of the matter is, if every time the term gets brought up the conversation derails into a “sexist or not?” argument, maybe it’s better if the term is never brought up.

It sounds very promising, I’m interested too.

chyron8472 said:

Question: is Rian pronounced rIan or rEEan?

I thought it was pronounced the same as “Ryan”, which is (ususally) the former.

Like Ryan, or like Brian without the B.

Mrebo said:

SilverWook said:

Star Wars was never that original to begin with. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but somebody already had the rights.
When I first saw Snoke’s rumpus room, I was expecting Ming and General Klytus to be there! 😛

There is much written that nothing is truly original and that that is a good thing!

Yes, exactly. You won’t find me saying that I love TLJ’s “originality,” whatever that means (beyond saying things like “we’ve never seen that before and it’s really cool”).

TLJ is similar in many ways to what came before, just like TFA. But it’s the way they take those similar, broad strokes and make them different that is important.

The idea that Rian was purposefully going against fan expectations is weird and doesn’t even hold any weight considering he wrote the script (and even filmed some of the movie) before TFA was even finished.

I don’t see a problem with not mapping out the trilogy before hand. This is a legitimate way to make a trilogy (and maybe even a better way). Each movie is given its own priority (instead of merely setting up the next). This was part of the reason why they wanted different directors on each, so you’d be assured each film would go for broke.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

This has been discussed in these pages and across the internet. It’s how the movies are playing against fan expectations, while deliberately creating an impression in line with those expectations; it’s how they’re a commentary on Star Wars itself, part of what people mean when they discuss it being “meta”. I think Mithrandir’s post better describes what I’m talking about. On YouTube, David Stewart intelligently discusses it. It’s been said many times, many ways.

I don’t deny that some fans think they’re being jerked around. But you just said that everyone agrees that they’re jerking people around. I don’t agree at all, and I’m certain I’m not the only one.

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

NeverarGreat said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

Exactly. And that’s why it feels so weird. If it’s only a plot point limited to Rey avoiding the call to adventure, why toy with it further?

Because, as I mentioned before, they add the “I need someone to show me my place in this” wrinkle.

Not to mention, just because she’s willing to leave Jakku, doesn’t mean she’s forsaken her parents entirely. Easier for Luke when he saw is adopted parents definitively gone. (in this regard I suppose she is closer to Anakin, in that her lingering attachments is what tempts her to the dark side.)

Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

I do tend to agree that, if TLJ didn’t decide that her parents were important to her story anymore, there is a way it could have worked (where you assume that she has managed to truly move beyond them within in the story of TFA).

It is a bit of a mystery though in TFA (namely, why did they leave her?), though just because it is a mystery doesn’t mean it needs to be solved. But ultimately I do think it is to the benefit of Rey’s character that it is definitively resolved in this way.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

Both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi treat Rey’s parentage like a secret. If it wasn’t a secret, then we would have learned who they were in TFA or in the Dark Side cave in TLJ. The fact that it was saved for a dramatic reveal by the villain in a similar fashion to ESB proves at least that Rian Johnson thought it was enough of a secret to go through the motions.

Well technically when Rey says where she comes from is “classified, big secret,” she’s being sarcastic. As in, nowhere, nothing, it’s not a secret at all…

I’m not saying that her parents identity wasn’t important information, only that her parents identities didn’t have to be important (as in, important people). I suppose I am pushing back against specific words because people expect certain things from mysteries. I don’t think all mysteries need to be answered, I think there’s a lot of power in letting a mystery lie. (In essence, Rey’s parents are still somewhat a mystery, we don’t know their names or what they look like. We don’t know their history or whether they were force sensitive or anything.) We know as much information as the story and the characters in it require.

Of course TFA suggests we’ll learn more about Rey’s parents. We basically have to because we know next to nothing about them and yet they are clearly important to Rey as they drive a lot of her actions in TFA. It’s hard to imagine, after spending all of that film trying to get back to Jakku for them, that she’ll be able to completely forget about them now that she’s joined the Resistance. It’s still unresolved for her, which means it is for us too. Basically the only way to resolve it would be either for Rey to meet up with her parents or for her (and us) to come to accept the information that they aren’t important for the future of her story, which is exactly what happens.

Could TFA have resolved this? Sure. But it didn’t have to, and there’s a good argument for that it shouldn’t have.

Since Rey is supposedly the viewer avatar for these films, I can only assume that Rey either doesn’t know her parentage or has suppressed that information because it’s too painful, and over the course of two films she gradually comes to the understanding that they really were nobodies. If she had seen the shadowy figures of her parents during the TFA Force vision (and her subconscious aversion to knowing the truth), it would have gone a long way towards communicating that this is her primary weakness.

But her primary weakness in TFA is already clearly that she has held on to her parents for too long. The implication in TFA is mainly that this is primarily because she wants a family and people that love her (and won’t abandon her). TLJ keeps that but subtly adds that she hopes/hoped that her parents would be people or moderate importance who would show her her place in the world. This is what matters in regards to the viewer avatar-ness of her character.

The impression isn’t that she doesn’t know who her parents are at all, just that, since she hasn’t seen them since she was a kid, their importance in the world was a bit ambiguous.

Could TFA have worked this in, that she hopes her parents are special in some way? Sure. But did it need to? I don’t really think so, it’s just another wrinkle that was added to her pining for them in TLJ.