TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.
WYSHS
True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.
TFA didn’t make a bid deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did. Rey’s parents are important to her in both TFA and TLJ.
I’ve got all of my Criterion discs on their own shelf organized by spine number.
How many Criterion titles do you have? I have 7 (well, 9 because one’s a trilogy set), which I didn’t feel was enough to justify segregating them from the rest of my movies.
I’ve got 22. I only decided to put them on their own shelf about a month ago when the six I ordered from that Barnes & Noble sale arrived.
Damn I’m slacking with 5 (or 6 if you count The Rock). There’s a lot that I want to get though.
Does it say Criterion Collection (and isn’t a bootleg or something)? If you answered yes, it counts.
It’s real, just it’s DVD (unlike the others I have) and also The Rock is nothing at all like the other Criterions I have.
Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.
For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.
I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.
It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.
Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare those two situations because there were no previously established realities for the situation in the galaxy to challenge. The way it went with TFA is as if TPM was the last Star Wars movie everyone saw and then they make ANH. People would go “wtf? what happened to the republic? to the separatists? what’s this empire?”
We had a established world: the empire has fallen, republic established. TFA tried to push the ANH situation down our throats but the world building wasn’t good enough - they didn’t give us any reasons or didn’t explain what is the first order or what was the republic or how we went from RotJ to the same ANH scenario. That’s what the movie doesn’t explain. It’s not about giving Snoke’s backstory I don’t think (even though that would be interesting once you realise he’s a sith and by the end of RotJ the sith were extinct), but it’s about what happened to the galaxy to get to the point where it was in TFA.
edit: Sorry, this was a really hard post to understand, sorry if it made no sense, it was badly written and not well thought out.
I think, again, that the problem with TLJ lies with TFA. It isn’t as good as some like to think. The crawl is one of the worst offenders. It doesn’t lay out the situation in the galaxy like the others. It just fails and then the movie fails in other ways and ends in a bad spot. I still consider TFA to be the worst of the films to date. It is the only one I have never truly enjoyed.
I’ve been criticizing TFA since day 1. Even TLJ Luke is TFA’s fault to an extent. It’s only better than TPM for me.
Really, those piles of garbage AOTC and ROTS are worse? TFA at least had a good script and acting.
And likable characters and good pacing and better production values and more interesting themes and better music and
I’ve got all of my Criterion discs on their own shelf organized by spine number.
How many Criterion titles do you have? I have 7 (well, 9 because one’s a trilogy set), which I didn’t feel was enough to justify segregating them from the rest of my movies.
I’ve got 22. I only decided to put them on their own shelf about a month ago when the six I ordered from that Barnes & Noble sale arrived.
Damn I’m slacking with 5 (or 6 if you count The Rock). There’s a lot that I want to get though.
Would The Last Starfighter count as a Star Wars knockoff? I’ve heard some people say it is, but I don’t think it’s quite derivative enough to be called one.
I guess it depends how you define rip-off. I’d say, not really, that falls more into general “inspired by,” but then again so does Battle Beyond the Stars.
I agree we’ve been too hard on him. He’s very talented in many ways and we wouldn’t have the OT without him (and it wouldn’t have been as good as it is without him). But his talents are kinda all over the place. There are many things about the job of the director that makes him perfect for the job, but there are still many reasons why we can’t really call him a great director.
I’m of two minds on the Maul thing. I think bringing him back was a dumb idea and I’d never have done it if I was a showrunner, but once they’d done it they did go on to do some genuinely interesting things with him.
Wasn’t it Geroge’s idea?
Most of that show came from George’s ideas.
But that’s the key: they’re just his ideas. Not his writing or direction.
And? It was asked if it was his idea and the answer is “yes, most of that show came from George’s ideas”. Let’s not bash someone for the sake of bashing. And I don’t even think he’s a bad director.
Really?
Working with actors is one of the most (if not the most) important jobs for a director, and he can’t do it. He hates doing it and it shows on screen. He can’t make bad actors better, he makes marginal actors bad, and he makes great actors average.
I don’t think he makes actors’ performances worse. He just allows the actors to have their own interpretations. Naturally that works sometimes and doesn’t work lots of times.
He’s just not a actor’s director. But, for example, cinematography and editing in all 6 Lucas films, for me, are better than in the 3 movies we’ve had since he’s out.And for the record, I think we had some wooden acting in TLJ, mostly by Ridley and Boyega.
Cinematography… ehhhh
George has a great eye, really he does have a great eye for good images. But he can’t move a camera to save his life.
I disagree. THX 1138 and American Graffiti have some beautiful cinematography, just like the original Star Wars.
Of course he got pretty lazy in the prequels and adopted the ‘2 angles 1 couch’ method in the prequels, but you have some really beautiful images in the prequels.
First of all, a lot of the beauty of the images should really be attributed to the actual cinematographers (and VFX/SPFX artists and production designers) more so than Lucas.
Second, yeah, the cinematography in his first three films are good. Like I said, he has a good eye, even in the prequels. But I don’t think cinematography is necessarily the original Star Wars’s strongest suit (not saying it’s bad). I can’t agree at all that episodes I-VI have better cinematography. In fact, I think TLJ might be the best of all the films in this regard. And if not TLJ, then definitely ESB, but George had nothing to do with the cinematography in that.
Yeah, well, TLJ cinematography is pretty good. God, the shaky R1 cameras drive me insane. I suppose I just prefer Lucas’ six films.
Maybe TLJ > AotC and RotS’ but I’m not entirely sure.
Besides some really good shots, most the cinematography in AOTC and ROTS is pretty average, if not outright poor.
I get not liking RO style, that’s fine, for the most part it’s a really good looking film though (to the extent that it seems like for some things there’s no point beyond looking cool).
Eugh, it’s gotten to the point where I honestly forget about that SE shit.
If we’re getting specific with “official,” canonically, the celebrations meant basically nothing.
But I’m not really arguing that the Empire didn’t fall after ROTJ, just that what happened after was never made definite.
I’m of two minds on the Maul thing. I think bringing him back was a dumb idea and I’d never have done it if I was a showrunner, but once they’d done it they did go on to do some genuinely interesting things with him.
Wasn’t it Geroge’s idea?
Most of that show came from George’s ideas.
But that’s the key: they’re just his ideas. Not his writing or direction.
And? It was asked if it was his idea and the answer is “yes, most of that show came from George’s ideas”. Let’s not bash someone for the sake of bashing. And I don’t even think he’s a bad director.
Really?
Working with actors is one of the most (if not the most) important jobs for a director, and he can’t do it. He hates doing it and it shows on screen. He can’t make bad actors better, he makes marginal actors bad, and he makes great actors average.
I don’t think he makes actors’ performances worse. He just allows the actors to have their own interpretations. Naturally that works sometimes and doesn’t work lots of times.
He’s just not a actor’s director. But, for example, cinematography and editing in all 6 Lucas films, for me, are better than in the 3 movies we’ve had since he’s out.And for the record, I think we had some wooden acting in TLJ, mostly by Ridley and Boyega.
Cinematography… ehhhh
George has a great eye, really he does have a great eye for good images. But he can’t move a camera to save his life.
I disagree. THX 1138 and American Graffiti have some beautiful cinematography, just like the original Star Wars.
Of course he got pretty lazy in the prequels and adopted the ‘2 angles 1 couch’ method in the prequels, but you have some really beautiful images in the prequels.
First of all, a lot of the beauty of the images should really be attributed to the actual cinematographers (and VFX/SPFX artists and production designers) more so than Lucas.
Second, yeah, the cinematography in his first three films are good. Like I said, he has a good eye, even in the prequels. But I don’t think cinematography is necessarily the original Star Wars’s strongest suit (not saying it’s bad). I can’t agree at all that episodes I-VI have better cinematography. In fact, I think TLJ might be the best of all the films in this regard. And if not TLJ, then definitely ESB, but George had nothing to do with the cinematography in that.
I’m of two minds on the Maul thing. I think bringing him back was a dumb idea and I’d never have done it if I was a showrunner, but once they’d done it they did go on to do some genuinely interesting things with him.
Wasn’t it Geroge’s idea?
Most of that show came from George’s ideas.
But that’s the key: they’re just his ideas. Not his writing or direction.
And? It was asked if it was his idea and the answer is “yes, most of that show came from George’s ideas”. Let’s not bash someone for the sake of bashing. And I don’t even think he’s a bad director.
Really?
Working with actors is one of the most (if not the most) important jobs for a director, and he can’t do it. He hates doing it and it shows on screen. He can’t make bad actors better, he makes marginal actors bad, and he makes great actors average.
I don’t think he makes actors’ performances worse. He just allows the actors to have their own interpretations. Naturally that works sometimes and doesn’t work lots of times.
He’s just not a actor’s director. But, for example, cinematography and editing in all 6 Lucas films, for me, are better than in the 3 movies we’ve had since he’s out.And for the record, I think we had some wooden acting in TLJ, mostly by Ridley and Boyega.
He’s not an actor’s director, you’re right, which is a problem when his dialogue is shit and unreadable.
Cinematography… ehhhh
George has a great eye, really he does have a great eye for good images. But he can’t move a camera to save his life.
I think Marcia and the other editors deserve a lot of credit there too.
Obviously.
Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.
George Lucas is by no means a bad editor, quite the opposite.
Which is why the SE’s are such wonderful edits? (Such how Jabba the Hutt is edited in to exposit information already given by Greedo?) Or how the official PT edits cut key scenes about the birth of the Rebellion, in which Padme took part and had to hide it from her husband?
…Can’t tell if serious.
There is an argument that he got worse as he went along. The SE is baffling in many regards, and obviously that’s his worse sin.
But the problems of the PT mostly lie in the directing. Cutting out the rebellion scenes is honestly pretty smart, considering they add nothing to the story of the film itself and most of the acting in them is really bad.
And I’m not joking at all. The original Star Wars is a perfectly edited film. Mostly because of George Lucas.
[DominicCobb said:](
It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason
I think JJ went a bit too far in the make it it’s own thing department. For first time SW and more casual fans it’s not an issue. But for bigger fans, of course we want to know what happened in the meantime. But this isn’t the Luke/Leia/Han story anymore.
For the most part, I really don’t have a problem with the sort of en media res sort of approach he took, it feels very true to Star Wars, as if once again we’ve missed some preceding episodes (which allows for mystery and surprises).
But I do think the crawl for TFA could have explained things better, and I think that film could have used at least one Death Star briefing-esque scene to set the stage for what the First Order really is.
But I truly don’t think knowing who Snoke is is all that important, based on what the story is. The whole point of this trilogy is that it’s impossible to get rid of the dark side entirely, so the fact that he’s a somewhat generic and ambiguous dark side user works pretty well. Do I think it’s possible they could have fit in a throwaway line that he’s an ancient Sith lord or whatever? Yeah, sure. But I don’t think it’d really add as much to the story as people think.
I appreciate what you’re saying in this Jedit to your post
Oh yeah, I’ve been trying to double post less often, I guess sometimes that can be confusing (especially when the edit comes a bit later because it is long winded).
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.
What’s the punishment then?
I’m sure there are plenty of things they could do we aren’t even thinking about.
I feel like I’ve said this before, but I kinda really want them to redeem Kylo in some way. If he goes out a complete villain, like so many want, to me that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t like to place specific expectations on unseen movies like this, but if they did that I’d be a little disappointed. It’s antithetical to what Star Wars is about.
Star Wars is about lots of things. I hate blanket statements like “Star Wars has to be about X or it isn’t Star Wars.”
Star Wars is a lot of things and I agree, but at the end of the day, to me, it is always optimistic (even if all the way it isn’t). For Han and Leia’s son to be unforgivably evil forever, it doesn’t sit right with me.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad. This is pretty basic stuff, Opinions 101.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
I can agree with this. That’s why I wish this was it’s own series instead of keeping the episode numbers. There’s clearly another trilogy worth of info that we’ve missed. Maybe that info isn’t important to this current tale, but it is important to the larger story.
A person miffed that the ST undoes the victories won in the OT and resets the galaxy to Empire vs Rebels with no explanation is a person with a valid complaint.
It is a valid complaint, but people use it as a main reason why the new movies are bad. No, they’re just not what you wanted, and that’s okay.
Snoke’s rise to power isn’t important in the ST though. Most of all the information you need for the story that’s being told is there.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
It is a sequel to ROTJ. The fact that it takes place so many years later is all the more reason to set the scene. It’s a cop out to expect the audience to accept anything just because a lot of time passed. It’s not important to the story how 3PO got a red arm and cosmetic changes are expected. It is important how the Empire/FO recovered under the rule of a Sith(?) after it appeared thoroughly beaten.
I think JJ went a bit too far in the make it it’s own thing department. For first time SW and more casual fans it’s not an issue. But for bigger fans, of course we want to know what happened in the meantime. But this isn’t the Luke/Leia/Han story anymore.
For the most part, I really don’t have a problem with the sort of en media res sort of approach he took, it feels very true to Star Wars, as if once again we’ve missed some preceding episodes (which allows for mystery and surprises).
But I do think the crawl for TFA could have explained things better, and I think that film could have used at least one Death Star briefing-esque scene to set the stage for what the First Order really is.
But I truly don’t think knowing who Snoke is is all that important, based on what the story is. The whole point of this trilogy is that it’s impossible to get rid of the dark side entirely, so the fact that he’s a somewhat generic and ambiguous dark side user works pretty well. Do I think it’s possible they could have fit in a throwaway line that he’s an ancient Sith lord or whatever? Yeah, sure. But I don’t think it’d really add as much to the story as people think.
Snoke’s rise to power isn’t important in the ST though. Most of all the information you need for the story that’s being told is there.
The simple fact is, TFA is not a direct sequel to ROTJ. It’s more so it’s own story that takes place after ROTJ.
As for how they know, as usual the final scene in Star Wars is ambiguously displaced from the timeline of the rest of the film. Who knows when that was.
Agree with everything you said, but ambiguously displaced endings are more of a prequels thing than an OT thing, since in the OT none of the endings require a time jump of more than a few hours.
Well that’s why it’s ambiguous. Just because it doesn’t have to be more than a few hours doesn’t mean it can’t be. In fact, in the case of ESB and ANH, I find just a few hours hard to believe.
Anyway, whether it’s an OT thing or a PT thing or an ROTJSE or a TFA thing it doesn’t matter. It’s not hard to imagine the final scene of TLJ is a bit later.
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.
What’s the punishment then?
I’m sure there are plenty of things they could do we aren’t even thinking about.
I feel like I’ve said this before, but I kinda really want them to redeem Kylo in some way. If he goes out a complete villain, like so many want, to me that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t like to place specific expectations on unseen movies like this, but if they did that I’d be a little disappointed. It’s antithetical to what Star Wars is about.
I kinda feel like the idea is these kids might not have even heard the name “Luke Skywalker” until what happened at Crait. This was of course the original plan for Rey, who ultimately just ended up being someone who heard the stories but didn’t totally believe them. For these kids, a full generation removed, it’s certainly possible they’d never heard of the Jedi or what they could do until Luke showed up on Crait and stood up to the First Order, igniting a spark of hope and inspiration in them.
As for how they know, as usual the final scene in Star Wars is ambiguously displaced from the timeline of the rest of the film. Who knows when that was.
Honestly I never really liked the idea that someone as evil as Vader could be saved. If Luke had succeeded right away and he and Vader took out the Emperor…what then? Vader doesn’t pay for any of his crimes? Because if he is going to pay for his crimes, he’s either going to be executed or spend all the galactic years of his life in prison. And if he’s not, well then what?
Same thing with Ben at this point. It’s too late.
I think there’s definitely a way to have Ben repent but then not let him totally off the hook. I think that might be interesting.
Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.
For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.
I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.
I’m not sure what the fleet would have done at Starkiller? Not to mention that’s literally a throwaway line in TFA about the NR fleet that I think I didn’t catch until my 6th viewing.
As for the bombers, they seem pretty unwieldy. I doubt they’d have been much of a threat against the hundreds of TIEs at Starkiller if they could be picked off so easily. Not to mention who even knows if they have hyperspace capabilities.
(as for the A-wings, I guess you just have to assume they were off doing something like whatever most of the X-wings were doing in this one)
I’m not really sure what about TLJ invites this much scrutiny? I don’t think there’s anything really technical about the plot. “Resistance fleet is faster so it can keep out of range until the fuel goes out”? I don’t really see how that’s much more complicated than other SW plots, it seems to fit right in with “Falcon needs to find a safe place away from the Imperial fleet to fix the hyperdrive so they can regroup with the rest of the rebels.”
If you don’t know how to turn off your brain from looking for plot holes that seems like a problem with you, not the movie.
And to those comparing TLJ with TESB: I find it easier to relate to someone that has a lack of self trust and was lied to and has his world destroyed, than someone whose failure was almost murdering his family. I actually think it’s pretty hard to relate to the latter.
Luke is far more relatable in TLJ than ROTJ in my opinion. Obviously once you get into specifics it falls apart in any of the films. But the Luke of TLJ is one that had a moment of weakness years ago and has regretted it ever since. The fact that he was tempted to kill his nephew doesn’t really make him un-relatable when you factor in the things that brought him there that have no analogues to anyone’s life (force visions, the dark side, etc.). It’s the broad strokes that are important.
George Lucas is by no means a bad editor, quite the opposite.