DominicCobb

The problem, warb (and others), is there’s some ambiguity and you’re taking that ambiguity and assuming automatically that it must be an inconsistency, whereas you could just as easily explore all the other possible explanations for it. Just because it’s not explained doesn’t mean it’s unexplainable. Movies, and Star Wars especially, are all about the possible, not the impossible. So to go right to the latter is essentially watching it wrong.

He doesn’t use force lightning though.

Notice that Yoda didn’t conjure the lightning out of thin air. Plus it’s possible that Force Ghosts have more power in places that are powerful in the force.

Not to mention that Obi-wan doesn’t make it clear that he is physically unable to help. It can be easily interpreted to mean “this is a challenge you must face as an individual,” much like when Yoda had Luke go in the cave by himself.

joefavs said:

Are there Razzies for fan edits?

https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/last-jedi-mra-fan-edit-women/

Jesus fucking Christ some people are pathetic.

suspiciouscoffee said:

joefavs said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Last Jedi retailer exclusive packaging for BD (and 4k!) leaks. Hopefully the standard release just has theatrical release art as with TFA and RO.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/011218-1500

Here’s the standard art:

Wtf is a “multi screen edition” and is there a normal edition without the lame border? Also, the last two SW movies included a DVD with the Blu-Ray, so why stop now? Is it just no longer worth it for them to print more DVDs?

I’m skeptical that that cover is legit. The official Target and Best Buy images seem to include DVDs.

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

I’m personally not a huge fan of reusing old music unless I have to (especially in this case where the pieces are somewhat similar), though it does work well.

Have you put any thought to rescoring the next bit with John Williams’s alternate piece for that scene?

I have no qualms reusing prequel music since I don’t consider them in my own head canon. So this probably mainly applies to people like myself who don’t really watch the PT in marathons.

I’ll be using prequel music in the Last Jedi too. My idea is basically to utilize the best music of the PT in moments where the ST just has better scenes and deserve better music. So I already have around 3 TLJ scenes that will be rescored with prequel music.

Fair enough. I think the ST music is just fine, but I can imagine some benefits to an approach like this.

darthrush said:

Cobb, Im also curious where I can find this alternate piece and what the track name is?

No track name as it hasn’t been officially released, just ripped from the TFA blu-ray special features.

You can hear it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgkFKt-6rcE

I’m personally not a huge fan of reusing old music unless I have to (especially in this case where the pieces are somewhat similar), though it does work well.

Have you put any thought to rescoring the next bit with John Williams’s alternate piece for that scene?

DominicCobb said:

All nine live action SW films are in the top 100 adjusted. No other franchise has even close to that many.

Fixed.

Here’s a quick (rough) pass of Padme on Alderaan:
https://vimeo.com/250994705

adywan said:

At all 4 showings i went to so far for TLJ, every joke got a laugh. Not just by one or two, but by most attending. At the midnight showing, the laughs were louder because the cinema was packed, same with the second showing. When the cinema is less packed the laughter can be quieter or when there are not many in there, people can be a little self conscious and tend not to laugh as much or as loudly, if at all. Happens with every film. The jokes in TLJ worked perfectly fine.

Yep, my first two screenings had a lot of laughter (almost too much). My second two had barely any, but that’s because there was barely anyone there (I was purposefully going to less busy showtimes).

Ultimately if someone else laughs or not doesn’t change whether I think a joke is funny, which I thought most of the jokes in TLJ were.

One thing i have to say since seeing the 2D presentation though is, i take back everything i said about Yoda. What the hell did they do in the 3D conversion? Did they overscrub the grain or something? Yoda, in the 3D presentations looked very smooth and almost waxy. Yet the 2D showing he looked amazing. Just like ESB Yoda. The only thing i noticed was the the puppeteer closed the mouth too tight and caused the face to squash, giving it a strange puffy look a couple of times. But that was the only thing that looked off in the 2D showing. In fact , effects wise, the whole film looked better in 2D

That’s interesting. I haven’t seen it in 3D, maybe I will if I go again, just out of curiosity.

Also, potentially fun fact, I believe I read that Frank Oz was doing the puppeteering.

The worst part of TLJ is the characters disrespecting 3PO. This is the worst part because never before have the characters in a Star Wars movie disrespected 3PO or told him to shut up.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

The only open hostility towards religion I see comes from Republicans against Muslims.

I’ve seen quite a bit of left wing hostility towards organized religion, so it exists, especially in academia.

I meant elected officials.

The only open hostility towards religion I see comes from Republicans against Muslims.

SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

Closest IMAX laser system is the better part of two hours away from me. I’ve been thinking about making the pilgrimage for the last couple weeks but I haven’t found the time yet. I really hope I make it out there while it’s still playing.

There’s one in Reading, don’t know how far your are from there. I’ve never been but I’ve heard it’s a good one, though you have to walk through a Jordan’s Furniture to get to it.

That’s the one I’m talking about. I’m out in Fitchburg, so it’s a ways to go for a movie. Boston’s got one coming in, but I doubt it will be open while TLJ is still playing. Maybe for Solo.

Ideally one day every IMAX screen will be laser (hell, every standard screen too).

Can we keep the few still rocking with 70mm film? I’m not stuck on a really late train into San Jose right now for the fun of it! 😉

Of course, but who knows how long those will stay around, unfortunately.

Gaffer Tape said:

As someone who really does like this film, this confuses me too. What was their plan, initially? As has been said, they never fire guns at the thing, assuming they even have guns, so was it always a suicide plan? How else could they have possibly taken it down? But if so, what changes in Poe between launching that mission and abandoning that mission? All of his character beats happen before the mission even starts. The lesson of the day isn’t that sacrificing yourself is bad. Because, you know, he learned his lesson from Holdo, who sacrificed herself. The idea, as I understand it, is supposed to be to understand that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. That it’s foolish to do pointlessly heroic things for pointlessly heroic deaths. That’s the contrast between Poe’s Dreadnaught attack and Holdo’s sacrifice. Poe causes a huge part of their fighters to get killed for a glorious victory when they could have simply turned tail and lived to fight another day. Holdo killed herself solely so that her comrades in arms could live to fight another day.

However, what Finn was about to do feels much more in line with the latter example than the former example. Finn was going to sacrifice himself, not for glory, but so that his friends might live. This is exactly what Holdo did. So I just don’t get why Rose and particularly Poe are against it, especially since I don’t understand what Poe’s plan was in the first place.

Their initial plan was to destroy the ram. It’s not stated explicitly, but the skimmers do have guns, so the assumption is they’ll use those. Yes, we don’t see them fire the guns, but that’s because they need to get close enough first. However, once they get closer, the ram starts charging up, which (as we see on Finn’s skimmers) destroys the guns. Thus, the only way to stop the ram would be to use the skimmer itself as a weapon. It is decided that is not an acceptable plan.

The situation is much more in line with the Dreadnaught assault. The Dreadnaught is about to fire on the main cruiser, but instead of running away, Poe has his fighters sacrifice themselves to destroy it. Trade out “Dreadnaught” with “battering ram,” and “main cruiser” for “shield door.” In the case of Holdo, the situation is completely different. The Resistance transports are already running away, but not unnoticed by the First Order (which was their plan). Holdo was only supposed to be leading the FO away (and the one loss when the cruiser was eventually destroyed, instead of many). When she decided to crash into the FO fleet, it was because she had no choice. If anything, the link between the Holdo scene and the Finn scene is that Finn was trying to copy her sacrifice when it wasn’t applicable.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

You said, “When Finn gets into kamikaze mode, we see the ram start to tear his skimmer apart. It’s clear he won’t even make it, let alone blow the whole thing up.”

It’s not at all clear. We are supposed to believe it is possible. That’s what makes it heroic. I think Finn should already have disintegrated given what the laser was doing to the door. But the movie had other ideas and allowed him to get closer and closer with little damage. Also, Finn seems to have a good handle on Imperial weaponry and technology. So it was at least possible - whatever thoughts Poe was having. And it was the idea that Finn could have destroyed it that made Rose’s action meaningful too. Otherwise she would have just been stopping him from being foolish, not because love.

Yeah, I did say that, and that’s how it looks to me (at least that’s how it looked when I saw it yesterday), but I get it’s maybe not “clear” (bad word choice) and open to interpretation. The thought that he might not even make didn’t even occur to me until this past viewing, because on my other viewings I didn’t even need that interpretation. Whether he makes it or not is not what matters in that scene, it’s completely beside the point. I keep saying it, and honestly if I have to say it again I think I’ll bow out of this discussion because we’re really going in circles now, but even if Finn destroyed the ram the point is that his sacrifice wouldn’t be worth it.

For reference, here’s my thoughts on the matter from a few weeks ago:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

To me it seemed like Finn was either going to get hit before he made it, or crashing into the weapon wasn’t going to accomplish much. Basically, it seemed like he was making a sacrifice for the sake of it.

I think they made it clear that it was between him destroying the weapon and himself, or saving himself and the weapon. Rose clearly says that basically with the line of “more important to save those who we love, than defeat those who we hate”

Yeah but that line is the whole point. Attacking the weapon is a fruitless maneuver designed to hurt them (like with the Dreadnaught at the start of the film). The Resistance was in a dire situation there even if the weapon was blown. The more important thing to do was to go back to the base and figure out most importantly how to save everyone they could, however they could.

Finn thinks it is possible and that he’s being a hero. But this movie is all about what defines heroism is not these kind of big grand statements, at least not like this (you have to be careful when you make your sacrifices, not jumping at the first opportunity you get once you’ve pledged yourself officially to the cause. Rose didn’t stop him from being “foolish,” she saved him from dying.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn is he doesn’t care if it’s a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected by Rose saving him either, because the intention is what matters here.

But my interpretation of the scene is that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and succeeded in destroying the weapon and therefore saving everyone/buying them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

Rose is just following through on Poe’s assessment. You could just as easily give that moment to Poe, their intentions are the exact same (and it’s not a selfish act, Rose didn’t “stop him,” she “saved him, dummy”). The reason it’s given to Rose is because that’s her role in the film, the angel on Finn’s shoulder guiding him toward the good. She taught him to become a member of the Resistance, which he follows through on, but he still has more to learn. This is just her next lesson.

Again, it’s obvious the filmmakers’ wanted you to be on Rose’s side here. It’s not something that I thought was an issue when I saw the film, but if you misinterpreted that then I guess they needed to make the pointlessness of Finn’s potential sacrifice clearer.

Their intentions are not the same because Poe was trying to save the most amount of people by calling off the attack.

Rose decided that saving Finn was more important than the rest of the Resistance.

What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.

Poe: call off the attack, save everyone in the skimmers, let the ram blow open the door
Rose: save Finn (the only skimmer not yet falling back), let the ram blow open the door

The intentions are exactly the same. Poe explicitly orders Finn to fall back. Rose just forces him to.

Rose spells it all out, what’s important in winning the war is saving people.

I can see your point, and it does make sense. But I think that the circumstances are different enough to make their intentions different.

Poe had a plan to try to save everyone. Then he saw that his plan would not only fail in doing so, but it would definitely get all those who were involved in it killed.

He called off the attack hoping that they could still find a way to destroy the weapon and live to fight another day, and in doing so, saving the most amount of lives he possibly could.

Finn then found a way, but it would cost him his life. However, since he’s now willing to give himself to the cause, that’s not a problem anymore. And when he was almost there, about to succeed and save everyone, Rose saved him, spelling certain death to all the rebels that Finn would’ve saved.

The thing is, Finn didn’t “find a way,” he was just following through on the original plan (only with certain death involved). Poe knew exactly what he was doing and told him to stop.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn is he doesn’t care if it’s a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected by Rose saving him either, because the intention is what matters here.

But my interpretation of the scene is that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and succeeded in destroying the weapon and therefore saving everyone/buying them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

Rose is just following through on Poe’s assessment. You could just as easily give that moment to Poe, their intentions are the exact same (and it’s not a selfish act, Rose didn’t “stop him,” she “saved him, dummy”). The reason it’s given to Rose is because that’s her role in the film, the angel on Finn’s shoulder guiding him toward the good. She taught him to become a member of the Resistance, which he follows through on, but he still has more to learn. This is just her next lesson.

Again, it’s obvious the filmmakers’ wanted you to be on Rose’s side here. It’s not something that I thought was an issue when I saw the film, but if you misinterpreted that then I guess they needed to make the pointlessness of Finn’s potential sacrifice clearer.

Their intentions are not the same because Poe was trying to save the most amount of people by calling off the attack.

Rose decided that saving Finn was more important than the rest of the Resistance.

What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.

Poe: call off the attack, save everyone in the skimmers, let the ram blow open the door
Rose: save Finn (the only skimmer not yet falling back), let the ram blow open the door

The intentions are exactly the same. Poe explicitly orders Finn to fall back. Rose just forces him to.

Rose spells it all out, what’s important in winning the war is saving people.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

Collipso said:

That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn is he doesn’t care if it’s a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected by Rose saving him either, because the intention is what matters here.

But my interpretation of the scene is that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and succeeded in destroying the weapon and therefore saving everyone/buying them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

Rose is just following through on Poe’s assessment. You could just as easily give that moment to Poe, their intentions are the exact same (and it’s not a selfish act, Rose didn’t “stop him,” she “saved him, dummy”). The reason it’s given to Rose is because that’s her role in the film, the angel on Finn’s shoulder guiding him toward the good. She taught him to become a member of the Resistance, which he follows through on, but he still has more to learn. This is just her next lesson.

Again, it’s obvious the filmmakers’ wanted you to be on Rose’s side here. It’s not something that I thought was an issue when I saw the film, but if you misinterpreted that then I guess they needed to make the pointlessness of Finn’s potential sacrifice clearer.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I feel like you shouldn’t act as if you’re 100% right and everyone else is wrong. What if you’re the one that misinterpreted it? (I’m not saying that’s the case here)

I can’t imagine how that would be the case, as the whole point of the scene is the culmination of Poe’s arc. If people think that Poe is a coward or that Rose doomed everyone, well I think it’s obvious that wasn’t the filmmakers’ intention.

The intention is there, if you think about it. But the problem is the execution. It’s very unforgiving for people who are on the fence about it to begin with, and are less willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

As I said, the fact that so many people didn’t get it means that I guess it wasn’t clear enough. Shame, they probably could have sold it with just one additional line (maybe this is the downside of not having test screenings).

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I feel like you shouldn’t act as if you’re 100% right and everyone else is wrong. What if you’re the one that misinterpreted it? (I’m not saying that’s the case here)

I can’t imagine how that would be the case, as the whole point of the scene is the culmination of Poe’s arc. If people think that Poe is a coward or that Rose doomed everyone, well I think it’s obvious that wasn’t the filmmakers’ intention.