AOTC and ROTS look totally fine to me in terms of picture quality; I mean it’s not like they look like 28 Days Later or something.
28 Days Later looks that way on purpose (I assume, I don’t know anything about picture quality).
I mean, if you’re saying they chose to shoot it on a shit camera, sure.
It raises the question which is important, I disagree that it answers it.
I thought that footage was shot for Legend.
No, common misconception.
I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.
time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.
I might give it a listen, although I did read the article. It’s always interesting to hear about a creator’s intentions. However, I also think a film should be analyzed on it’s own terms. The PT is based on some good concepts and ideas, but in the end it was the execution of those ideas that made it less than successful for me personally.
It is very helpful to know the filmmaker’s intentions, as they could give insight on something you missed. Then you can go back and determine if the film executed it well. It’s fair if you ultimately don’t think so, but just because you didn’t understand their intentions when you first watched, doesn’t mean their intentions aren’t properly conveyed on screen. (Note I’m speaking in general here, not necessarily to you)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus_Conquers_the_Martians
I had the same reaction as Frink, but, to be clear, I know the film, and have seen it at least a couple times.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
It does change the surprise factor though. I was pretty surprised when I figured it out. I wouldn’t have liked that to have been taken away.
To an extent. Like I said, I knew something was up, but when it cut to Luke floating above the rock on Ahch-to, it was still a big “oh shit” moment for me.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
Yes! The Rebels too, because presumably most of them had never seen Luke before. Leia too, probably, because that was the last Luke she saw and last time she saw Rey, Rey was on her way to give Luke the blue lightsaber.
Yes, though I don’t know if I’d really call that fooling. Kylo should’ve known better, the Rebels weren’t fooled, they were inspired. Whether Leia knew something was up is open to interpretation (my guess is she ultimately knew exactly what was going on).
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s too angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
First of all, you should spoiler tag your post.
Second of all, I think most “plot holes” are stupid and shouldn’t hinder your enjoyment anyway. If a book eases your mind, nice. But for me, most of the time I don’t see anything worth fussing over.
My apologies. Post has been edited.
And to your point, I do agree that most of the time, plot holes are a stupid thing to complain about, but I am more speaking to bigger issues like character motivations or why something played out the way it did. If a book fixes an apparent problem there, then that is what I am speaking to.
Yeah I can get that. Things like character motivations should be clear in the text of the thing itself, not explained in an outside text. But things like “how does this piece of technology/magic actually work,” “what happens in this off screen scene,” “what is the backstory of this world, person, whatever,” etc. A supplemental book can add something there, but as long as that kind of info isn’t actually important to the story of the film, it shouldn’t matter.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
First of all, you should spoiler tag your post.
Second of all, I think most “plot holes” are stupid and shouldn’t hinder your enjoyment anyway. If a book eases your mind, nice. But for me, most of the time I don’t see anything worth fussing over.
I think it’s very important but I do think her story in TLJ does sort of work without it. It’s probably more integral to her story in IX.
I’ll just defer to my prior thoughts on the matter (on the subject of what you consider your personal SW canon)…
The concept of personal canon is such a weird and intangible thing to me. Do you guys really see all these things fit together when you consume these movies/TV shows/comics/etc.? Or is it just simply you compiling what bits of Star Wars content you like and think are worthy of existing (for lack of a better term)? Or is it picking the things you think make sense together and should be things that happened in this universe?
Going off the last one is a tricky one. So many of these things contradict each other or are so different in tone/characterization or what have you that it’s hard to put them all in the context of one another. For example, some of my absolute favorite Star Wars content is the original Marvel run of comics (and the Goodwin/Williamson strip), but I find a lot of that very hard to reconcile with the world established in the films. Similarly, as much as I loved the PT as a kid, I’ve spent about the last decade coming to terms with the fact that it just does not fit at all with the OT (fan edits are an effort to fix this, but can they ever really?).
Anyway, point is, hard for me to genuinely come up with a “personal canon” in the typical sense of the world (what I view as the ‘history of the Star Wars universe’). I could list the Star Wars stuff that I like but I don’t know, feel like that’s kind of boring?
May do it later anyway.
I will say I totally understand people with multiple canons. It’s definitely a different experience watching the original film as just a standalone feature in comparison to watching it in the larger context of the OT (on that note, I’ve tried numerous times to watch it in the context of the PT but it just doesn’t work).
Seinfeld is all that matters.
Yep
Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.
It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.
But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.
I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.
Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.
First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.
The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.
Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.
I hope that makes sense.
I bookmarked this. Great stuff.
I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.
The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.
First of all, I’m not 100% certain it is a dark side power (though it feels very creepy and invasive so probably), I was just saying that we see Kylo Ren has amassed great power in the force, and we assume from the dark side.
Second, that’s not really what Luke does, he sees Ben’s heart, which I imagine is a more opaque image, and then he has a vision of the future.
So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?
That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.
And no offense, but this is one of the reasons I probably won’t be watching any TLJ edits. Everyone wants to cut out things I thought were great.
Alongside that, I think the idea of having Luke burn down the tree is terrible.
I guess we can agree to strongly disagree here 😃
I really feel like that was the point of the scene. I do agree with you technically on one thing and that’s that Luke definitely should have not burned the tree in that moment. Mainly because it would be out of anger and him simply feeling that this will help him “kill the past”. Yoda does burn the tree, but it’s not because he wants to kill the past. He knows what actually matters and wants Luke to look past just a pile of old books and instead look to learn from his past and to cherish his failures and how they have helped him. This is a contrast to Kylo killing the past. And that is ultimately why I feel the books at the end on the Falcon are just another pointless cheap fake out that aren’t worth putting in the film.
But I have discussed this before and definitely see where your coming from! I just interpreted the same content a bit differently I suppose.
Even though I said I wouldn’t say more about this…
I don’t think it’s a fake out. That scene doesn’t change in retrospect, Yoda’s lesson remains. But the shot of Rey saving the books is important, but to Rey’s story. It shows that she will learn for herself, and that she won’t completely kill the past like Kylo.
FYI, there’s a great interview with Rian on the most recent episode of the Empire film podcast.
Yeah I enjoyed that.
Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.
It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.
But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.
I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.
Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.
First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.
The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.
Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.
I hope that makes sense.
It does make sense. Do you think it was clear (if intended) or well executed?
90% yes. TLJ (and TFA) make this all pretty clear in terms of what her motivations and insecurities are.
The 10% is for when she lifts the rocks at the end, but only because of the way it is portrayed (not the fact that she does it). I have ideas for how that could have been done better but a lot depends on how they frame where Rey is in IX.
Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.
It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.
But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.
I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.
Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.
First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.
The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.
Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.
I hope that makes sense.
Never mind to what I said about not liking Rey in my last post cause this is an outstanding explanation for her character struggles.
Thank you for the analysis! I never looked at her journey in that way and how her challenge in the cave contrasts with Luke.
I honestly think a lot of issues people have with Rey stem from trying to align her story with Luke’s. And the do align in a broad sense, but you have to pay attention to the differences in the similar beats to see how her motivations and conflicts are actually quite different.
For instance, when she goes to see Ben to save him, one might think it’s a parallel to Luke going to Vader in ROTJ. But it’s closer to Luke going to Vader in ESB in terms of where the characters are at. Luke goes to Dagobah to become a Jedi hero. When he goes to face Vader and save his friends, he thinks he’s being a hero (and fails). Rey goes to Ahch-to to find someone to guide her and to save the Resitance. When she goes to Ben, that’s exactly what she thinks she’s going to get (but like Luke she fails).
Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.
It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.
But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.
I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.
Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.
First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.
The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.
Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.
I hope that makes sense.
Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.
It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.
But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.
I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.
Album: Abbey Road
Song: A Day In The Life
Correct.
I must be the only one in the world who thinks that’s the best scene in the film.
EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.
I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.
As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!
Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.
I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.
This is not the first time you’ve called me out for something I haven’t done. Instead of stooping to your level, this time I’ve just decided to report you.
On my second 70mm IMAX viewing I realized we finally saw an older FO officer, the captain of the dreadnought. He could have been an imperial officer in the OT era. Also noticed some female FO officers. Were there any in TFA?
Another FO chap also looked a lot like the late Admiral Piett.
There are at least a couple female officers in TFA (and at least one middle aged officer). There are also some female stormtroopers in there, don’t know if that’s true for TLJ also because none of them speak (another ESB rehash).