DominicCobb

moviefreakedmind said:

DominicCobb said:

moviefreakedmind said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

adywan said:

You only have to look around places like facebook to see how the RT audience scores have been manipulated. Campaigns were started before the film even come out to give it negative reviews. Not just star wars pages either. 99% of the time, RT was the place they aimed for. After the film came out it got even worse. The amount of posts i had to delete on my page where people had posted links to these type of campaigns was astounding. They even added getting people to upvote the prequels on RT to make TLJ score look even worse. Just check out the ROTS reviews and see just how many new ones have suddenly appeared since TLJ.

There’s a real dark side to the Star Wars fandom and it came out in force after TLJ. The amount of the so called reviews and the negative comments/ attacks on social media that point their hatred for it towards the fact that there is more diversity, more women taking the lead roles, Disney is pandering to the SJW’s etc is disgusting.

Woah ady, slow down with your rash argument.

At least his argument, while anecdotal, deals in reality.

True, you could learn something from him.

Bots and socks! It’s a conspiracy!

Thanks for proving once again that you either missed my point completely or were purposefully ignoring it. Great conversation we’ve had here.

The larger point seems to be that almost everyone loves the Disney Star Wars movies and anyone who has any real problem with them just has a massive stick up their ass or is an alt-right operative. That’s definitely been the attitude I’ve encountered and I haven’t been obnoxious in my complaints about the Disney movies, or at least not as obnoxious as some people online have, but I’ve still been treated almost no differently than the people who claim that TFA “ruined” Star Wars or insanity like that.

I guess you can join Jay then in willfully missing my point.

I said that it was your “larger point” beyond just the RT score. And I was referring to more users than you.

It’s one thing if you’re talking about other users, but your concept of my “larger point” has no basis in reality (to paraphrase Jay). I’ve never said anything remotely like that shit, nor do I believe it.

There’s some rich hypocrisy in trying to paint me as obnoxiously generalizing people with differing opinions than mine when you’re literally doing that exact thing.

Collipso said:

Now THAT’s being open minded.

Care to clarify?

moviefreakedmind said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

adywan said:

You only have to look around places like facebook to see how the RT audience scores have been manipulated. Campaigns were started before the film even come out to give it negative reviews. Not just star wars pages either. 99% of the time, RT was the place they aimed for. After the film came out it got even worse. The amount of posts i had to delete on my page where people had posted links to these type of campaigns was astounding. They even added getting people to upvote the prequels on RT to make TLJ score look even worse. Just check out the ROTS reviews and see just how many new ones have suddenly appeared since TLJ.

There’s a real dark side to the Star Wars fandom and it came out in force after TLJ. The amount of the so called reviews and the negative comments/ attacks on social media that point their hatred for it towards the fact that there is more diversity, more women taking the lead roles, Disney is pandering to the SJW’s etc is disgusting.

Woah ady, slow down with your rash argument.

At least his argument, while anecdotal, deals in reality.

True, you could learn something from him.

Bots and socks! It’s a conspiracy!

Thanks for proving once again that you either missed my point completely or were purposefully ignoring it. Great conversation we’ve had here.

The larger point seems to be that almost everyone loves the Disney Star Wars movies and anyone who has any real problem with them just has a massive stick up their ass or is an alt-right operative. That’s definitely been the attitude I’ve encountered and I haven’t been obnoxious in my complaints about the Disney movies, or at least not as obnoxious as some people online have, but I’ve still been treated almost no differently than the people who claim that TFA “ruined” Star Wars or insanity like that.

I guess you can join Jay then in willfully missing my point.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

we must acknowledge current connotations, even if they haven’t always been there

I agree, if only to confront/negate them.

That’s fine, I only mean if someone’s using a word with the connotation in mind, you can’t just ignore that connotation.

(just speaking generally here)

DuracellEnergizer said:

Here’s what I accept: Since TLJ came out, you’ve been nothing short of a conceited, disrespectful blowhard towards everyone who’s dared exhibit an opinion different from yours — another “human-truth interface” in the mode of Imperialscum. I grew sick of him, and I’ve grown sick of you. I’m done interacting with you and your supercilious bullshit.

Don’t care much about the apologist thing (except to say that we must acknowledge current connotations, even if they haven’t always been there), but I totally agree with this^. Attitudes like kind he regularly exhibits are extremely obnoxious and unproductive.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

adywan said:

You only have to look around places like facebook to see how the RT audience scores have been manipulated. Campaigns were started before the film even come out to give it negative reviews. Not just star wars pages either. 99% of the time, RT was the place they aimed for. After the film came out it got even worse. The amount of posts i had to delete on my page where people had posted links to these type of campaigns was astounding. They even added getting people to upvote the prequels on RT to make TLJ score look even worse. Just check out the ROTS reviews and see just how many new ones have suddenly appeared since TLJ.

There’s a real dark side to the Star Wars fandom and it came out in force after TLJ. The amount of the so called reviews and the negative comments/ attacks on social media that point their hatred for it towards the fact that there is more diversity, more women taking the lead roles, Disney is pandering to the SJW’s etc is disgusting.

Woah ady, slow down with your rash argument.

At least his argument, while anecdotal, deals in reality.

True, you could learn something from him.

Bots and socks! It’s a conspiracy!

Thanks for proving once again that you either missed my point completely or were purposefully ignoring it. Great conversation we’ve had here.

Don’t want to be that guy, but you’ve removed the humor entirely, so now it’s kind of a weird moment the doesn’t totally track - Poe says he has an urgent message, Hux rambles, then Poe just goes in for the attack. Surely there’s a way to at least keep some of Poe’s “who talks first” personality here while also making it clear that he’s the one trying to stall, and not just conveniently getting Hux to do that for him?

Of course, I don’t have a dog in this hunt, you’re free to do what you please. Just trying to be constructive.

TV’s Frink said:

quote the entire quote.

Weird rule, but okay.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

adywan said:

You only have to look around places like facebook to see how the RT audience scores have been manipulated. Campaigns were started before the film even come out to give it negative reviews. Not just star wars pages either. 99% of the time, RT was the place they aimed for. After the film came out it got even worse. The amount of posts i had to delete on my page where people had posted links to these type of campaigns was astounding. They even added getting people to upvote the prequels on RT to make TLJ score look even worse. Just check out the ROTS reviews and see just how many new ones have suddenly appeared since TLJ.

There’s a real dark side to the Star Wars fandom and it came out in force after TLJ. The amount of the so called reviews and the negative comments/ attacks on social media that point their hatred for it towards the fact that there is more diversity, more women taking the lead roles, Disney is pandering to the SJW’s etc is disgusting.

Woah ady, slow down with your rash argument.

At least his argument, while anecdotal, deals in reality.

True, you could learn something from him.

Regarding Carrie’s face in that one shot, I only questioned the complaint because it didn’t make sense. I said nothing against him not liking the shot or thinking it looked bad, he can say whatever he wants, it was just the specifics of the complaint that confused me. But I guess I can’t talk about the movie without being labeled an irrational zealot, regardless of what it is that I’m actually saying. So that’s cool. Wish people would actually engage without making shit up, but what can you do, it’s an internet forum.

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Possessed said:

DominicCobb said:

I will say 2001 in particular seems like it’d be cool to see in a giant theater all by yourself.

Otherwise I agree with Possessed.

I got to see rogue one in a theater with just me and dad. It was pretty sweet. (Sunday night showing mixed with a snow storm)

I’ve never had the pleasure (which is odd considering how often I go to the movies). The closest I got was when I saw TLJ for the fourth time a month after it came out on a Tuesday morning. There were still like 7 or 8 other people in there, but it was at the Chinese Theater which has a capacity of almost a thousand, and I was sitting quite a few rows in front anyone else, so it just about seemed like I was the only one there.

I always knew you were a Californian. 😛

Only recently 😛

If I were into guns I’d be mad at the NRA in general, not just Nugent.

adywan said:

You only have to look around places like facebook to see how the RT audience scores have been manipulated. Campaigns were started before the film even come out to give it negative reviews. Not just star wars pages either. 99% of the time, RT was the place they aimed for. After the film came out it got even worse. The amount of posts i had to delete on my page where people had posted links to these type of campaigns was astounding. They even added getting people to upvote the prequels on RT to make TLJ score look even worse. Just check out the ROTS reviews and see just how many new ones have suddenly appeared since TLJ.

There’s a real dark side to the Star Wars fandom and it came out in force after TLJ. The amount of the so called reviews and the negative comments/ attacks on social media that point their hatred for it towards the fact that there is more diversity, more women taking the lead roles, Disney is pandering to the SJW’s etc is disgusting.

Woah ady, slow down with your rash argument.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

All my argument has ever been is

A) Audience scores are always fallible, in general
B) There are many factors that point to RT audience scores in particular being biased towards negative
and C) That the RT audience score for the movie is only 3% points below even.

Put those altogether, and it is down right absurd to imagine that the RT audience score is proof that the majority of the audience disliked the movie.

The fact that I like the movie has nothing to do with it. If you had simply said that a significant portion of the audience didn’t like the movie, I wouldn’t have said anything, because that is obvious. What isn’t as obvious is the veracity of the RT audience score, so you treating it as gospel legitimately gave me a laugh.

I’ve made this more than abundantly clear in each of my posts, but I guess somehow it is still confusing to you, so I apologize. Hope it’s clear now.

I didn’t say it was gospel. I used it as an example.

I’m not confused by your rash argument, but thanks for clarifying anyway.

Sure man

Frank your Majesty said:

Jay said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Jay said:

My point was that using other questionable scoring methods to call RT into question doesn’t make logical sense.

But it makes perfect sense. If you measure the same thing with different methods and none of the results agree, it’s perfectly logical to assume that any or all of the methods are flawed.

No, it doesn’t make sense. He said RT is flawed and he pointed to other sources he considers more definitive to support his argument. I’m the one who posited that they’re all likely flawed in some way.

The way I understood it, he used these other scores to point out that there are disagreements. And because of these disagreements, RT shouldn’t be seen as definite prove that most people dislike or hate the movie.

Yup, you got it exactly right, probably because you weren’t putting words into my mouth like “more definitive.”

Which isn’t to say I think RT isn’t less definitive (it’s up for debate), just that whether one is more or less definitive is completely beside the point.

And we’re not measuring the same thing. While there’s almost certainly some crossover in the samples, CinemaScore’s audience isn’t IMDB’s and isn’t RT’s.

All of these sites try to measure how a movie was received by the audience as a whole. Sure, they use different samples, but they certainly claim to reflect an overall opinion and that’s also how they are used in discussions. The different methods are how the score is calculated and related to the bigger population. And a free-for-all approach without much regulations, like RT and IMDB, is definitely biased by simply taking the average of all scores without compensating for differences between users and regular audiences. This doesn’t mean a more controlled poll has no bias at all, but there certainly is a difference between bias and heavy bias.

Exactly. That they’re “not measuring the same thing” is precisely the problem because they say they actually are. You can’t say that RT is accurately measuring all audiences when they’re clearly just measuring the audience members who took the time to sign up and rate the movie, which is by no means a representative sample.

All my argument has ever been is

A) Audience scores are always fallible, in general
B) There are many factors that point to RT audience scores in particular being biased towards negative
and C) That the RT audience score for the movie is only 3% points below even.

Put those altogether, and it is down right absurd to imagine that the RT audience score is proof that the majority of the audience disliked the movie.

The fact that I like the movie has nothing to do with it. If you had simply said that a significant portion of the audience didn’t like the movie, I wouldn’t have said anything, because that is obvious. What isn’t as obvious is the veracity of the RT audience score, so you treating it as gospel legitimately gave me a laugh.

I’ve made this more than abundantly clear in each of my posts, but I guess somehow it is still confusing to you, so I apologize. Hope it’s clear now.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

I never said the bot thing was an anti-SJW conspiracy, nor did I say that it even happened, just that it plausibly could have. Using bots is not “hacking,” and wouldn’t even be that hard to do. When I say bots I mostly mean people making a ton of socks accounts, which isn’t something that anyone in their right mind should think is a possibility far divorced from reality. The potential of someone making a script that’d do the work for them logically follows, though again I’m not saying it definitely happened (honestly the bot thing was pretty clearly beside my point).

Then why bring it up at all other than to obscure the lack of logic in the argument? “Hacking” doesn’t just mean breaking into a computer or network or writing malicious code; social engineering is a form of hacking. Using bots to overwhelm a system and subvert its intended purpose qualifies as hacking even though it works within the confines of the system. And bots aren’t people with sock accounts; bots work independently, which is what makes them bots. Words mean things.

I bring it up because it’s one of many factors that should be considered. Also, each time I brought it up I was saying “even if you don’t believe in the bots,” which is to say it’s obvious that you don’t believe people who say bots were made, so I’m acknowledging that and moving on to the other points.

What I meant by my definition is that I lump them together. Non-sock bots are still a part of that factor, as I stated if you paid attention to what I posted.

I think you’re intentionally blurring meanings because your argument that RT is an invalid source for audience opinion was based on your opinion (you admitted yourself you couldn’t bother to research it) and doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. At worst, it’s no more faulty than any other audience metric.

It seems to me like you’re just latching on to the bot thing (which I barely talked about) because you have no good counterargument to my actual point. Cool man, well done.

Possessed said:

DominicCobb said:

I will say 2001 in particular seems like it’d be cool to see in a giant theater all by yourself.

Otherwise I agree with Possessed.

I got to see rogue one in a theater with just me and dad. It was pretty sweet. (Sunday night showing mixed with a snow storm)

I’ve never had the pleasure (which is odd considering how often I go to the movies). The closest I got was when I saw TLJ for the fourth time a month after it came out on a Tuesday morning. There were still like 7 or 8 other people in there, but it was at the Chinese Theater which has a capacity of almost a thousand, and I was sitting quite a few rows in front anyone else, so it just about seemed like I was the only one there.

Hal 9000 said:

I don’t remember which one, but there’s an edit which renders the line, “He could use the Force [] to create life.”

That’s L8, and he cuts away to the shot from behind to make it work. This is what I’d do if I were to do it, though I’m not crazy about the cutting away.

I never said the bot thing was an anti-SJW conspiracy, nor did I say that it even happened, just that it plausibly could have. Using bots is not “hacking,” and wouldn’t even be that hard to do. When I say bots I mostly mean people making a ton of socks accounts, which isn’t something that anyone in their right mind should think is a possibility far divorced from reality. The potential of someone making a script that’d do the work for them logically follows, though again I’m not saying it definitely happened (honestly the bot thing was pretty clearly beside my point).

Anyway, I’ve pretty much grown bored of this discussion. If you had just said that a significant portion of fans disliked the movie and cited the RT score, I wouldn’t have batted an eye. But to say that the majority of fans disliked it, as if that were a fact, and to point to the RT score as proof, well that was a statement too ridiculous not to respond to.

I will say 2001 in particular seems like it’d be cool to see in a giant theater all by yourself.

Otherwise I agree with Possessed.

ChainsawAsh said:

I’m 99% sure HAL got rid of the midichlorians reference during the Plagueis scene and I didn’t even notice anything was missing. I’m in the process of downloading his V5 right now though, and already got rid of V4.2 to free up space, so I can’t check at the moment.

I checked, he cut out the bit about creating life, which is something I’m somewhat fond of.

Okay guys, wondering out loud here. How much do we care about a midichlorians reference? I’ve found a way to get rid of it in the Plagueis scene but I’m not sold, and I’m thinking, is it that bad that we hear someone mention midichlorians once? My thought process being, if it’s not explained what they are, it might actually add another mysterious wrinkle to the Force and Plagueis (plus they are technically canon). Does that line of thinking make sense? Or am I just being lazy?

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Ha, citing the RT audience score unironically, that’s funny.

I’m guessing you have “valid” data that supports your take on things.

Do you? In general I wouldn’t trust an audience score on a site like that. Which is to say nothing about the reports of concentrated bot reviews. Even if you think there’s no way that could have been the case (because it’s so unbelievable) there was still a campaign to lower its score. Plus the simple fact that hardcore fans that got mad are way more likely to rate the movie on RT than the casual fans who vastly outnumber them. When you consider the high cinema score, it’s starts to paint a different picture.

Even if you’re skeptical of these things, it’s not hard to see how the RT score might be slightly biased in one direction. That considered, it’s weird to use it as proof that a majority of fans disliked the film when that score is basically right in the middle, even with that negative volunteer bias.

So yeah, I think it’s pretty silly to take any stock in the RT audience score, and you doing so did legitimately give me a laugh.

So no then. Got it.

If you chose not to listen to very easily understood concepts, sure.

Failing that, I think the CinemaScore and IMDb rating will suffice.

I understood what you said just fine. It’s just that what you said didn’t answer my question. I asked you for data you considered valid and you provided none. But you provided data this time, so I’ll address it.

This guy’s got some data
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

which isn’t necessarily an endorsement of everything said therein but I don’t feel like doing the research myself. At the very least he provides reason for one to be at least somewhat skeptical of the RT score.

IMBD’s less than stellar TLJ rating of 7.4 is hardly a smash hit (do you pat your kids on the back when they get a C?), the MetaCritic score is mostly positive at 85, and audience reviews are split down the middle. Sounds suspiciously like…RT.

7.4 isn’t a great score, though you’d think if “the majority of people didn’t like it” it’d be quite a bit less than that. Which isn’t to say IMDb is more reliable, just that it’s different than the RT score, which means maybe it’s weird to say one of them is objectively right?

CinemaScore polls viewers on opening night, which provides multiple avenues for skewing the results in either direction (limited sample size, not enough time to analyze what they just saw, etc.).

Same point, weird to discredit one and not the other. I don’t doubt there’s skews there, but why pretend that RT is more trustworthy? At the very least, the CinemaScore skews more to general audiences rather than the kind of hardcore fans who would waste their time writing a review online. And Star Wars has a far greater percentage of casual fans.

Plus, TLJ had the same audience score as TFA and RO. You’d think if the majority hated it it would’ve been even slightly lower, no?

I don’t see anything about these methods that makes them a more reliable or scientific predictor of a film’s quality than RT, especially since what I’m seeing on IMDB backs up what RT says (critics like or love it, audiences seem split but veer into the negative).

I don’t see how IMDb backs that up, a 7.4 is mixed at worst. As I’ve said it’s just ridiculous to put any stock into these audiences scores.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Ha, citing the RT audience score unironically, that’s funny.

I’m guessing you have “valid” data that supports your take on things.

Do you? In general I wouldn’t trust an audience score on a site like that. Which is to say nothing about the reports of concentrated bot reviews. Even if you think there’s no way that could have been the case (because it’s so unbelievable) there was still a campaign to lower its score. Plus the simple fact that hardcore fans that got mad are way more likely to rate the movie on RT than the casual fans who vastly outnumber them. When you consider the high cinema score, it’s starts to paint a different picture.

Even if you’re skeptical of these things, it’s not hard to see how the RT score might be slightly biased in one direction. That considered, it’s weird to use it as proof that a majority of fans disliked the film when that score is basically right in the middle, even with that negative volunteer bias.

So yeah, I think it’s pretty silly to take any stock in the RT audience score, and you doing so did legitimately give me a laugh.

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2017/12/rotten-tomatoes-the-last-jedi-low-audience-score & https://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-score-defense/

Found these 2 doing a quick Google search. They were among the top results.

To say that the low audience score for TLJ in RT was hacked by some sort of alt-right group or that it isn’t legit is the same as saying that Disney has payed most critics to give their movies high scores, which isn’t something I believe in, therefore I call both ideas BS.

No need to go full denial mode about most people not liking a movie you like. It just so happens people have different opinions.

And interestingly enough I think that RT is so easily accesible to the casual movie goer that it ends up being one of the most reliable sources for audiences’ scores imo.

PS: I’ve been reading what I wrote over and over before posting and I don’t know how to phrase it better but it just isn’t making any sense to me and I don’t know how to improve it. If anything’s incohesive or incoherent, I’m sorry.

I never said it was hacked (nor do I think it was), and obviously RT would deny any claims of weirdness. What I’m arguing is not hard to believe. Even if you put aside the possibility that people made bots, even if you pretend there wasn’t a campaign to give the movie a low score, the simple fact of the matter is that you can’t trust an audience score on a site like RT. Due to its voluntary nature, there is a bias towards people with extreme negative reactions trying to make a statement. When you take a franchise like Star Wars, with a controversial movie like this, that just exacerbates the bias. Then there’s the very high critic score, which only makes people with the opposite opinion want to make their voices heard even more.

All of which is to say, the negative voices are the majority on the RT audience score by 3%. It’s pretty silly to pretend that there’s no possible way that even 4% of that could have been due to the inherent biases in RT’s method of scoring. So to me, when someone says that that’s “proof” that the majority of audiences disliked the movie, I do have to laugh a bit.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that I like the movie. I really don’t care if a majority or minority disagrees with me, that’s not going to change my opinion. I’d be arguing the same thing if the situation were reversed, that being it’s ridiculous to put any stock into an easily gamed score, especially when there’s other scores that paint a different picture.