It’s you interpreting it the wrong way because you don’t like the movie. Simple as that really
Come on, man. This thread is a shitshow.
Maybe read the rest of the post before contributing nothing to the discussion.
It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.
How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.
I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.
No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.
You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.
How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.
Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.
That’s all good and well, but the ST does not exist in isolation. The idea that a potential Jedi needs to be trained by a mentor has existed since ANH, and has been expanded upon in the films, that followed. The entire process of becoming a Jedi has been shown to be both laberous, and riddled with risk. The entire arc of Anakin’s fall, and redemption, and Luke growth and aspirations as a character hinges on these themes, as you yourself point out. The ST greatly diminishes what came before, because it trivializes the journey to become a Jedi, and the themes set out by Lucas in favour of doing its own thing.
The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.
I think you’re missing or ignoring an important aspect of Lucas’ story, namely that being slowly exposed to these amazing powers, combined with the emotional immaturity that comes with young age inevitably will lead to the temptation of the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. This was the reason the Jedi trained prospects from a young age. Becoming a Jedi was about more than having some Force powers. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This has been the theme running through episodes 1 through 6. Rey only learns failure in the few days she has been exposed to the Force, whilst having her powers grow exponentially for reasons of plot convenience, and that apparently is enough for Luke and Yoda to proclaim her the next Jedi to be. I don’t like that for reasons stated above. It’s perfectly fine that you do of course.
But Rey already has “the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.”
You’re putting canon over story. In your mind you perceive Rey’s abilities to be a serious breach of established continuity. Because yeah, Lucas did make statements that support your assertions (those he’s also made some that support mine). But what I care about is what’s in the text itself. Star Wars is an ever-evolving universe. Rey’s journey is changing the way we see the force in the context of the films (and not necessarily contradicting anything we’ve seen before, if it’s contradicting what we’ve been told outside of the films), and I’m okay with that. Because it is serving the story first, and the canon second.
Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.
Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.
I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.
You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.
Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.
Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.
Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.
Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.
To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.
Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.
Luke Skywalker: But I can help them! I feel the Force!
Obi-Wan Kenobi: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.
Notably Obi-wan says he can’t control it after Luke failed to lift the X-wing.
Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.
Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.
I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.
You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.
Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.
Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.
Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.
Which is why I find the Rey’s traning argument to be kind of petty and shortsited.
To me being as powerful as the narrative (or the writer) needs her to be is precisely the problem. Luke could lift a rock, but lifting an x-wing, or a ton of boulders was impossible for him, or any other novice, because it requires the mindset of a Jedi, to see beyond preconceptions, to be able to reach a level of control that comes with dedication, and experience. This is what makes becoming a Jedi so arduous. To now have a character come in, and do it all on the drop of a hat greatly diminishes the trials of all the Jedi that preceeded her in my view. It’s like having a novice who never did any sports compete in the Olympics, and still come out on top despite a lack of proper training. If not liking that is petty, then so be it.
Yoda was disappointed that Luke didn’t lift the X-wing, which means he knows he could have. His problem wasn’t that he was a novice.
It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.
How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.
I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.
No, this “we critics just want the same over, and over” is just as tiresome, and old as you claim my criticisms to be, and has been refuted many, many, many, many times. I’m looking for the story to give her compelling personal reasons to exist, and to make her work for her status as a Jedi, and a hero. There’s just no denying Rey progress in the ways of the Force are not justified by the story, other than they are just there, because of “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Luke doesn’t help her, yet she still succeeds in everything she puts her mind to when it comes to using the Force.
You’re focusing on the wrong things. Over and over. You ask why she wants to be a Jedi because you’re waiting for her to do what Luke does - explain why he wants to be a Jedi. But in waiting for this moment that will never come you completely miss what’s actually happening - that Rey doesn’t necessarily even want to be a Jedi. That’s not what it’s about for her.
How fast she learns to use the force is irrelevant to her characterization. The irony is you crave adherence to the PT’s established Jedi must be trained from birth “rule” so much that you fail to realize that by bypassing that Rey’s character is actually sidestepping a plot device that has little to do with her actual story as told. They’re focusing on more relevant factors in her specific coming of age.
Luke’s story was one of aspiration. The training was important to him insofar as aspirations are nothing without hard work. Rey’s story is not about aspiration, it is about belonging. Training has nothing to do with that (we see she understands hard work when we meet her). For Rey, her struggle is to learn that belonging is nothing without first a sense of self-actualization.
The force shouldn’t be a super power. These aren’t video games, so gaining proper experience points before leveling up shouldn’t be a factor. The force is a mystical energy field, but beyond that in world explanation the force has always been a metatextual manifestation of the character’s journies. It was this way with Luke. It’s that way with Rey. It was even this way with Anakin (or it was trying to be). This is someone who is born with more strength in the force than anyone else, with his ultimate downfall being his inability to properly direct whether he used these immense powers for good or evil. His story is not about learning to use the force (Qui-Gon makes clear he already does), it’s about learning to control it. Even when he whines about being held back, it’s not about not getting trained enough, it’s about others not appreciating his potential. In a way he’s the anti-Rey, he knows he has the strength, his struggle is trying to prove he’s capable to everyone else. And it’s a decidedly different story than Luke’s. Get rid of the ten year gap where he’s being trained and you don’t miss a thing of importance in his story.
It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.
How? Why does she join the Resistance’s fight? Why does she want to become a Jedi? What does becoming a Jedi mean to her? Why does she reject Ben Solo, when he’s the only Force user who seems to care about her future? The answers to all these questions imo seem to be, because the plot dictates her choices. The writers need her to become the next new hope, and so she’s bestowed with these magic powers, that become her McGuffin for tagging along, and finding out more about herself. Her Force powers are a self-fullfilling prophesy. They are the reason she goes on this quest, the reason she survives her ordeals, and ultimately the reason she becomes a hero, and a Jedi. She is literally an empty vessel waiting for the story to give her reasons to exist.
I don’t know why I should explain when I’ve already done so many, many, many, many, many times. It’s all there in the movies anyway, but you’re too busy looking for her to fulfill the same exact story as Luke to notice.
It’s weird to say Rey’s story is about her being a slave of destiny when it’s almost explicitly the opposite.
I find it interesting that they specifically said Carrie’s stuff would be unused TFA footage, implying that they won’t also be using any unused TLJ footage on top of that.
I think there probably just isn’t any unused TLJ stuff.
Yeah, that would be like revealing two already established seemingly unrelated characters are actually brother and sister! Who pulls that out in the third film and expects to get away with it? 😛
Hopefully JJ is smart enough to follow through on what he set up in TFA (and Rian expanded on) and doesn’t feel pressure from fans to shoehorn in some random bullshit “explanation” that won’t stack up against the rest of the story being told.
This could all be fixed if it’s revealed she had a bit of training as a toddler by some forgotten survivor of the Jedi purge. 😉
I’d find that neither satisfying or necessary.
More satisfying than Kylo telling Rey that her parents were nobodies who basically sold her off for beer and smokes?
I tend to find satisfaction in revelations that make sense for the character’s story as has been portrayed.
This could all be fixed if it’s revealed she had a bit of training as a toddler by some forgotten survivor of the Jedi purge. 😉
I’d find that neither satisfying or necessary.
I sort of imagined Lando owning a huge casino somewhere, maybe on an old converted Star Destroyer. Or he’s a high roller who gets the royal treatment at every casino in the galaxy, and lives pretty well while regaling the ladies with tales of how he blew up the Death Star.
I was literally just thinking how cool it’d be if he owned this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wheel
NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.
That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.
The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.
I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.
I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope.
Someone seems to be conveniently forgetting The Phantom Menace.
Who dies in that one? The only main character to die in their own trilogy was Padme. Each trilogy has a trio of characters with some side characters. Obi-wan, Anakin, and Padme in the PT. Luke, Leia, and Han in the OT, Finn, Rey, and Poe in the ST. The Jedi mentor has died in each trilogy (Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Luke). Other characters die (Darth Maul, Mace and most of the Jedi, Jango Fett, most of the fighter pilots in ANH, Boba Fett, Jabba). But many others live. But the main trio will live to the end of the trilogy. And R2 and 3PO are around to the very end. People die when it is important to the story that they die.
Well I guess what he means is that even though Qui-Gon is the mentor, he’s also the closest thing to a main character in that movie. However due to the film’s prequel nature, we can all pretty much assume how it’ll play out for him anyway, so you’re basically right.
People are speculating they shot some of the Sledgehammer scenes before the script was rewritten when Harrison broke his leg so they would have Leia in that.
It’s certainly possible. Honestly it’s unclear how far a lot of things got before they were changed. Which is why I said earlier it’s sort of a benefit to them that they kept that whole process mysterious when talking about TFA’s production. It’s entirely possible that they have a completely unspoken of subplot that they could slide in. Or not.
Unpopular onpinion: Lando is just a Han clone and offers nothing to the story.
Lando is a really fun and cool character in Solo and Empire, but once he turns good he’s boring. In ROTJ, they didn’t know what to do with him. They had too many characters, put Han in the falcon or Lando on the ground and the story would of been exactly the same (except for “I love you”).
I was perfectly fine with them abandoning Lando in the sequels. His story is finished, and it’s not like his son is evil like Han. Him not appearing raises the stakes in the EU, when Lando almost died in the Battlefront II campaign I legit thought he might. But now we know he survives until that strange week 30 years later, when the entire galaxy is flipped upside down.
I think that opinion is spot on. That’s one of the biggest problems with ROTJ. Both Han and Lando’s character arcs are finished in Empire. They both just take up space in ROTJ.
They easily could have found interesting things character-wise for both of them to do in ROTJ, they just didn’t. For example, Lando being a part of the rebellion is just something taken for granted.
One of the reasons it’s made sense that Lando hasn’t been in the ST yet is he’s not that guy. The only place you could have put him was as a random Resistance general but that wouldn’t really make sense. The Resistance is made up of former Republic military, which is hard to imagine Lando being a part of. Lando’s likely been living life as the leader of some giant corporation and/or private star system on the other side of the galaxy. It makes sense why the conflict hasn’t reached him yet in TFA/TLJ.
I have a colorblind friend who’s a big SW fan.
That’s not really how that works though, is it?
If they get too big they can become a real nuisance. I’d at least do a warm compress for a little while.
Sounds like a lot of work.
Have fun getting puss in your eye.
If they get too big they can become a real nuisance. I’d at least do a warm compress for a little while.
Sounds like a lot of work.
I’ve never been one to get pimples. I was fortunate enough to just skip right over that part of adolescence. But every once in awhile I get a random zit.
Today it’s on my eyelid. Under the lashes. So basically right on top of my eye. And I don’t know what to do about it.
It’s called a stye. Gently wash your eyes out with Johnson’s Baby Shampoo. I used to get these a lot. Now during the summer when I’m outside and sweat more often, I do this once a week or so and I get them less often.
Eh I’ll probably be fine.
Many (if not most) films feature protagonists that have to learn hard lessons. TLJ is not alone in this regard, even among Star Wars films.
Execution aside, the idea that making a hero learn a lesson will alienate the audience isn’t one that really makes sense.
I’ve never been one to get pimples. I was fortunate enough to just skip right over that part of adolescence. But every once in awhile I get a random zit.
Today it’s on my eyelid. Under the lashes. So basically right on top of my eye. And I don’t know what to do about it.
also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?
This, but also not many people would call a place absent of sex and alcohol a “utopia.”
I’m not even asking for that. I’m just asking for it to be less explicit and not glorified. There’s no reason to show an explicit sex scene between teenagers.
I agree with this, but I guess we don’t watch the same stuff because I’ve also never encountered this. But if I did I would agree.
I also can’t think of any examples. I will say too that glorification of such a thing isn’t always a great idea, but neither is demonization.
also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?
This, but also not many people would call a place absent of sex and alcohol a “utopia.”
i agree, but you get my point.
Yeah, we’re on the same page.
We never got the Maz Leia scene from TFA, did we? They’ll probably pull footage/dialogue from that.
Maybe. There’s also another deleted scene that was on the home release. The Oliver Reed in Gladiator treatment would be fine, depending on what they have to work with.
I saw on Twitter that there was also a scene filmed of Leia at the Republic asking for ressources.
Are you sure it’s not the included deleted scene where she sends Kor Sella to the Senate? Or maybe a scene of Kor Sella at the Senate, and not Leia?
Considering Kor Sella (and the Republic Senate) dies in TFA, I wouldn’t think any of that would work for IX.
I don’t know why I bother.
I was reading through the TJL Spoiler thread, recalling why I don’t bother there anymore.
Some people make clear they aren’t willing to try to understand and there’s no sense trying to make them.
I agree with you for once.
also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?
This, but also not many people would call a place absent of sex and alcohol a “utopia.”