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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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17-Jul-2018
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Post
#1226341
Topic
Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"?
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Mielr said:

SilverWook said:

I was speaking more towards the people who think the human body blows up like a water balloon in space.

In a movie universe where spaceships and explosions can be heard in a vacuum, and often defy physics, giant slugs live inside an apparently airless asteroid, people with magical powers formally fight with improbable laser swords when a blaster would end things quicker, (see Obi-Wan vs. Grevious) and overgrown teddy bears kicked Imperial ass, Leia in space was the one bridge too far? I give up.

It wasn’t the improbability of Leia flying—we all know that films rely on suspending disbelief, and it was required many times in the OT, but it was more the TONE that struck me as so odd. The tone of the flying Leia scene was totally off, totally un-Star Wars-like, and I think that’s why so many people were like “WTF”?!

I’ve heard a lot of complaints about this scene, but never this. I’m honestly curious why you think so, in my mind tonally it’s one of the scenes that feels the most like classic Star Wars.

I feel the scene is just looks weird. From her frozen face to the way she suddenly opens her eyes, to her expression, to the way she sort of flies back to the ship with her hand stretched out in an extended shot. The scene was obviously meant to resonate with the audience, but if such a scene falls flat, it sort of feels like a comedian telling an unfunny joke with that awkward silence in the room.

I’ve heard this complaint before though. You’re not describing a tonal issue as far as I can tell.

You could call it a tonal issue, if you don’t know how you’re supposed to feel about the scene. I think it can sort of feel out of place to some.

But I think how you’re supposed to feel is clear, no? The issue seems to be whether it’s effective in achieving that or not. Which is an issue of execution, not tone.

Post
#1226339
Topic
Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"?
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Mielr said:

SilverWook said:

I was speaking more towards the people who think the human body blows up like a water balloon in space.

In a movie universe where spaceships and explosions can be heard in a vacuum, and often defy physics, giant slugs live inside an apparently airless asteroid, people with magical powers formally fight with improbable laser swords when a blaster would end things quicker, (see Obi-Wan vs. Grevious) and overgrown teddy bears kicked Imperial ass, Leia in space was the one bridge too far? I give up.

It wasn’t the improbability of Leia flying—we all know that films rely on suspending disbelief, and it was required many times in the OT, but it was more the TONE that struck me as so odd. The tone of the flying Leia scene was totally off, totally un-Star Wars-like, and I think that’s why so many people were like “WTF”?!

I’ve heard a lot of complaints about this scene, but never this. I’m honestly curious why you think so, in my mind tonally it’s one of the scenes that feels the most like classic Star Wars.

I feel the scene is just looks weird. From her frozen face to the way she suddenly opens her eyes, to her expression, to the way she sort of flies back to the ship with her hand stretched out in an extended shot. The scene was obviously meant to resonate with the audience, but if such a scene falls flat, it sort of feels like a comedian telling an unfunny joke with that awkward silence in the room.

I’ve heard this complaint before though. You’re not describing a tonal issue as far as I can tell.

Post
#1226336
Topic
Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"?
Time

Mielr said:

SilverWook said:

I was speaking more towards the people who think the human body blows up like a water balloon in space.

In a movie universe where spaceships and explosions can be heard in a vacuum, and often defy physics, giant slugs live inside an apparently airless asteroid, people with magical powers formally fight with improbable laser swords when a blaster would end things quicker, (see Obi-Wan vs. Grevious) and overgrown teddy bears kicked Imperial ass, Leia in space was the one bridge too far? I give up.

It wasn’t the improbability of Leia flying—we all know that films rely on suspending disbelief, and it was required many times in the OT, but it was more the TONE that struck me as so odd. The tone of the flying Leia scene was totally off, totally un-Star Wars-like, and I think that’s why so many people were like “WTF”?!

I’ve heard a lot of complaints about this scene, but never this. I’m honestly curious why you think so, in my mind tonally it’s one of the scenes that feels the most like classic Star Wars.

Post
#1226334
Topic
Is Star Wars "Better Than It's Ever Been"?
Time

RogueLeader said:

I grew up during the prequel era, so despite the critical reception of those films, I feel it was a great time for the franchise. A lot of great games, books, toys, eventually The Clone Wars, and as a kid I loved the prequel movies too.

I think from a kid’s perspective, there hasn’t been a whole lot to latch onto compared to when I was a kid. If I were a kid now, I probably would’ve gravitated towards Marvel stuff inbetween the SW movie releases.

It’s funny you say that because I grew up around the same time but had a different experience. Star Wars was my favorite anything, but as much as I enjoyed the prequel trilogy at the time, the Lord of the Rings trilogy was just as exciting if not more so - and not just for me, but for other kids my age too.

Hard to compare a kid’s experience now vs. then, but I’ll say at the very least the mere existence of an animated show (not to mention multiple shows) is a big plus. When I was a kid I was chomping at the bit for a SW TV show. All I got was a “micro” series, “micro” meaning almost pathetic (in length, not content) 5 minute “episodes.”

There’s really only two things that seem to be lacking in comparison. First of all, video games. The new Battlefronts, despite their reputation, are actually pretty solid. But otherwise, there’s almost nothing. Second of all lacking, is extra material with the ST characters. Due to the PT’s timeline (and nature as a story with a set ending), there was a lot of room for stories in-between the new episodes. Thus far, there hasn’t been too much of that.

Post
#1226308
Topic
Is Star Wars "Better Than It's Ever Been"?
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Nope. The best it ever been was 21 May 1980-24 May 1983.

There’s definitely a good argument for that one. Honestly, why not expand it to the original film’s opening? Those early Marvel books were fun in their own way, and Daley’s Solo novels more than make up for the weirdness of Splinter (which is still an enjoyable read). Then again, the Holiday Special…

Post
#1226306
Topic
Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"?
Time

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, since anecdotal evidence is important here I guess, everyone I’ve talked to has really enjoyed the new films (in fact I still haven’t met anyone who disliked TLJ, only people who know people who disliked TLJ). So, checkmate I guess? Is that how anecdotal-based debates work?

I called it anecdotal when I posted it. I never said I was right or that anyone else was wrong.

No, I realize you did, that wasn’t the issue. It just generally seems like a weird thing to bring up in a debate. Like, where do you go from there?

Post
#1226305
Topic
Last movie seen
Time

Over the Top (1987) - This feels like three different movies stitched together, with Stallone acting in the least prominent and believable one - the quiet and very serious character drama. C

Pretty in Pink (1986) - Enjoyable little movie. Ringwald and Cryer make it worth it (even if Duckie sucks). B-

First Reformed (2018) - An engrossing and haunting portrait of a man going insane, which I guess is what Paul Schrader does best. I almost want to say too that Ethan Hawke has never been better. Check it out. B+

Fantasia 2000 (2000) - The interludes lack the delightful simplicity of the original (and are often even groan worthy), and the segments in general also just aren’t as good, but on the whole this is a fantastic collection of beautiful shorts. B+

Ant-Man & The Wasp (2018) - A big step up from the first, with an exciting storyline and inventive action and well-integrated comedy. I like it. B

Miami Vice (2006) - Takes a bit to adjust to the digital photography and cinema verite style, but once you settle in, this is an exciting and effective picture, even if I still wanted some more character to shine through. B

Days of Thunder (1990) - Though it sometimes becomes silly enough that it almost enters the realm of self-parody, the earnestness on display makes you buy it all, to an extent. C+

Dark Crystal (1982) - I’ve seen few films as wonderfully strange as this. Everything is so specific and unique and fascinating and, occasionally, terrifying. I only mostly understood what was going on, but that didn’t totally matter. B+

Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure (1989) - A most triumphant journey! There really aren’t enough films like this that just go full blown silly. B

Leon: The Professional (1994) - A solid, stylish thriller. The weirdness hinted at with the central relationship is… weird I guess, and nothing significant is done with it. Otherwise, very solid. B

The Parallax View (1974) - Tightly wound pacing and paranoid cinematography pair fittingly with a simple, but engrossing central plot. I’m a sucker for a good conspiracy thriller, and I have to say this is one of the best. A-

Post
#1226299
Topic
Is Star Wars "Better Than It's Ever Been"?
Time

suspiciouscoffee said:

I’d say it might be if every nerd wasn’t at another’s throat 110% of the time because of it.

That’s a very good point, though I guess I was mainly thinking content-wise. Certainly the internet discourse is probably worse than it’s ever been, though I’ll say my in-person discussions have grown and they’re usually pretty pleasant, even if we’re not always entirely on the same page.

Post
#1226292
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

Collipso said:

do people hate dex’s diner’s scene because dex himself is a big pile of cgi shit or are there other reasons?

Well that’s probably the most glaring factor. Speaking as someone who never “hated” the scene, I think a big issue is how little the setting is Star Warsified. But I must say I do like the idea of it. Those films could’ve used more lighthearted scenes of that nature with the heroes, and in regards to the “diner” of it all, in general I think AOTC is really the only prequel to actual make good use of the “city planet” concept. So basically, good scene on paper.

Post
#1226289
Topic
Is Star Wars "Better Than It's Ever Been"?
Time

First of all we need to acknowledge that no film will ever be better than the original Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back.

With that out of the way, has there ever been a better time for the series? The majority of fans and general audiences would agree that on the whole the Disney films have been better than the prequels, and many would say that Disney has put out some films better than Return of the Jedi. Even some people who don’t necessarily care for the sequels find the spin-offs to be worthy, and vice versa. In fact, that’s part of the beauty of the new films, with each appealing to different fans in different ways.

Elsewhere, Rebels was debatably the best show the series has ever had, and there’s a new animated show out this year, and (finally) a live action show out next year. When it comes to books and comics, as usual things are hit and miss, though honestly the consistency of quality has been much higher, from my perspective. The future of the films beyond Episode IX are unclear, but if Rian Johnson and Benioff + Weiss are to be believed, we might finally be getting theatrical Star Wars content that isn’t closely connected to the main saga.

In the broader sense, Star Wars is arguably more popular than ever. The series has now accumulated multiple generations of hardcore fans, in addition to the general and casual audiences who once again find Star Wars cool and interesting. The days of the series being “nerds only” is firmly over, and possibly never coming back (which is probably why many are lashing out). Speaking anecdotally, it’s crazy to me how often I’ll find random people talking about the series (in an excited and positive way). It’s not something I was used to growing up.

Whatever you think of some of the movies, this is inarguably an exciting time. Is it the most exciting time?

Post
#1226287
Topic
Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"?
Time

Anyone who thinks that Star Wars has only now in 2018 “jumped the shark” has selective memory loss, and is forgetting the years 1999 and 2002 when Jar Jar Binks and a flippy jumpy Yoda graced out eyeballs, respectively. There’s honestly nothing at all in the new Disney movies that fits the phrase, especially as they hew much closer to the more grounded and believable nature of the original films. Just because you don’t like a scene or a film doesn’t make it a “jump the shark” moment.

Now, if you want to argue that there’s some sort of fatigue or oversaturation, that’s a legitimate viewpoint, but again is completely separate from the term “jumped the shark.”

Also, since anecdotal evidence is important here I guess, everyone I’ve talked to has really enjoyed the new films (in fact I still haven’t met anyone who disliked TLJ, only people who know people who disliked TLJ). So, checkmate I guess? Is that how anecdotal-based debates work?

Post
#1225671
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

He’s right in the sense that you can’t really say anything about it without someone having to respond “too bad it sucks!” This is true of the PT too honestly, and I am as guilty as anyone. It can become quite tiresome.

Or just a “too bad you’re wrong”.

Well in general I’d say the constant negativity is far more exhausting and annoying. On this site (and really the internet in general) we don’t let people enjoy things. Not just talking about SW.

Post
#1225585
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Men and women are equal, but not the same. To me continually forcing women into the role of a female Rambo, and calling it feminism or female empowerment is wrong. Men and women are different, and we should celebrate this gender diversity. To me Leia is a much better representation of female strength, and empowerment than most of what the current batch of movies have given us. It should not just be about beating up people, and being in places of power. It should be about having a moral compass, showing resilience, and being an inspirational leader. That’s what Leia was to me, more so than any of the other classic characters, or the new ones. Leia stood up to Darth Vader, despite the fact that he could break her in half. That is true strength.

Ehhhhhh men and women have biological differences that set them apart, sure… but I think these are often overstated, as the majority of the differences between the two genders are caused simply by cultural norms and mindsets.

Are women, on the whole, physically weaker than men? Sure! Do I think that Daisy Ridley could right now beat up literally any dude on this site? Not a doubt in my mind. Point being, it depends.

I can’t speak to “female Rambo” because I must have missed that reboot (or otherwise can’t seem to think of any characters that fit that description… except maybe Sarah Connor but I thought guys were cool with her). Even if the argument is that women should be less represented in the military ranks because of biological shortcomings or whatever, in terms of SW background roles we’re mostly talking about people in leadership roles or people sitting at desks. I can’t really think of a single good reason why there shouldn’t be a roughly equal amount of women in those roles in a fantasy film that is supposed to be divorced from the deep-rooted historical Earthly ideas of gender roles.

The issue here to me is, that Star Wars mostly represented just that even before Disney took over. In the OT women were at the top in the Rebel Alliance. There were also plenty of women in desk jobs. The PT featured female pilots, and Jedi Masters. Padme was both a queen and a senator. Then there’s Ahsoka Tano, and Asajj Ventress in Cloen Wars, who both became fan favourites.

The problem with what came before wasn’t that women were literally nowhere to be found. It was that the ones there were basically token females.

In my mind Rey perfectly embodies the idea of an empowering female character. Her character is not defined by her physical strength at all. What makes her strong is her inner strength: her resilience, her independence, her determination, her ability to strive to do the right thing even if she’s not always sure the best way to get there, her compassion for her friends, and her struggle to grow to believe in herself when all her life she’s been told she’s nothing. Those who focus on her “overpowered” abilities are, of course, looking at the wrong thing entirely.

I think her being overpowered is exactly what stands in the way of her being empowering. The creators were so obsessed with creating a female role model, that they made her too perfect. As such she doesn’t earn her great powers, but just recieves them apparently just because she’s a female protagonist. She had to be better at everything than anybody. God forbid, if she actually needed anyone’s help. Luke survived the Death Star run, because he was rescued by Han Solo. Not so for Rey, she can rescue herself, and I’m sure if Finn, Han and Chewie didn’t come to her rescue, she would have found a way to get of SKB herself. She doesn’t need Luke’s guidance. She will train herself, and become the greatest Jedi ever.

Of course she needs help, she learns important lessons from everyone along the way. Don’t forget, if it was all up to her, she’d still be on Jakku.

Ultimately the point of her strength in both films is that it is a power within her that she only need to believe in herself to tap. Which is of course the same way it was for Luke. But Rey’s filled with insecurities.

You can debate the tact with which her powers are utilized in the film (I’ll even concede there’s a couple minor fumbles in TFA in this regard), but you’re obviously misconstruing the intent. She doesn’t have powers just because she’s a female protagonist (it honestly seems like you’re just kinda making an argument to fit an agenda when you say that). Plenty of people have complained about JJ Abrams shortcutting his protagonists in other films to success so it’s probably pretty safe to say this isn’t done just because she’s a woman.

Okay, because I can’t sleep, here’s the three main pressure points of her skills in TFA (where I’ll argue if anything narrative shortcutting is more to blame than simply making Rey overpowered):

  • She flies the Falcon to safety. Forget the fact the she almost crashed it when it first took off, and had more trouble with two TIEs than we’ve ever seen anyone have in any of these films, this apparently shows that she’s the best because they made it out alive. But isn’t that how movies work? If you think it should’ve been more challenging, is that really an issue of her being a Mary Sue or of the filmmakers not making a more complicated scene?
  • She uses the mind trick to escape. This one annoys me, I’ll admit it, just because it comes out of nowhere with not much reasoning. But did they do this just because she’s a girl? I mean on the one hand kinda, if Lucas turned the damsel in distress trope on its head in 77 JJ had to push that to the next level here. And I appreciate that. But is her using the mind trick them trying to show that she’s the “best evar” is it them not being able to think of another quick way to escape that also shows she’s become awakened in the force?
  • She uses “the Force” to beat Kylo. Now narratively this makes sense that she’d have this moment where she taps into this force within her that Maz told her about. Logically it makes sense that she should be able to beat a critically injured Kylo. Execution-wise, though, there’s an issue again where it kinda comes out of nowhere. So the issue is less the fact of the matter that Rey won, and more simply the way it was done. Does the apparent ease of her accessing the force in this moment make her a Mary Sue? Or is it again the writers not thinking of a more elegant way to include a “use the force” moment here? Then the planet breaks apart and the two are separated. Essentially a kind of Solo rescue-ish moment, though obviously without the emotional punch because it is an arbitrary and contrived bit where scenery has a big character changing moment rather than a human… and it happens after the fight is over.

My point ultimately being, the claimed ease of these moments does nothing to take away from the character’s main struggles in the film - finding her identity and self worth. If her journey was all about obtaining physical strength and becoming the most powerful Jedi, then I probably wouldn’t even be arguing with you. But that’s not what it is about at all.

To be fair, I didn’t have that many issues with Rey in TFA, partly because I imagined some of the less believable parts of her development would be explained or expanded upon in TLJ. Sadly, this did not happen.

There actually is a sort of an explanation, whether you like it or not is another matter.

After seeing TLJ I feel she is a plot driven character. Why does Rey want to become a Jedi?

She never says she want to be a Jedi. She wants someone to show her her place, and to help her with what she’s experiencing. Why she should want those things should be clear. Becoming a Jedi is ultimately just the answer to those more pressing wants.

Why does she suddenly trust Kylo over Luke, after she witnessed Kylo murder her mentor a few days earlier? Is she that naive?

She doesn’t exactly. He tells her a story she doesn’t believe, until Luke kinda backs it up. She puts her faith in Kylo because he opened himself up to her and let her put her faith in him, while Luke refused on both counts. She turned to Kylo because she had hope, and seemingly no other option.

If so, why are there no consequences for the weaknesses in her character? Luke had weaknesses, and he payed for them dearly in TESB. Luke needed to be rescued at the end of TESB literally hanging on for life. Rey simply gets to escape the Supremacy using a conveniently placed shuttle to be in time to rescue the entire rebellion, and to celebrate their symbolic victory.

You’re complaining that TLJ didn’t rehash Empire enough now? Not every film requires the protagonist to “pay dearly” when they make a mistake. What’s important in a story of failure isn’t consequence, but learning. Luke was put on his ass because that was the lesson that he needed to learn at that moment - the importance of patience. Rey learned an important lesson too (that unspoken third lesson, especially obvious if one considers the deleted caretaker scene), which is that the person that she kept looking around for to put her faith into was actually herself all along. Her failure with Kylo served a narrative purpose to illustrate this (amongst other things). Rey losing a limb wouldn’t have (necessarily) done that.

Post
#1225582
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Men and women are equal, but not the same. To me continually forcing women into the role of a female Rambo, and calling it feminism or female empowerment is wrong. Men and women are different, and we should celebrate this gender diversity. To me Leia is a much better representation of female strength, and empowerment than most of what the current batch of movies have given us. It should not just be about beating up people, and being in places of power. It should be about having a moral compass, showing resilience, and being an inspirational leader. That’s what Leia was to me, more so than any of the other classic characters, or the new ones. Leia stood up to Darth Vader, despite the fact that he could break her in half. That is true strength.

Ehhhhhh men and women have biological differences that set them apart, sure… but I think these are often overstated, as the majority of the differences between the two genders are caused simply by cultural norms and mindsets.

Are women, on the whole, physically weaker than men? Sure! Do I think that Daisy Ridley could right now beat up literally any dude on this site? Not a doubt in my mind. Point being, it depends.

I can’t speak to “female Rambo” because I must have missed that reboot (or otherwise can’t seem to think of any characters that fit that description… except maybe Sarah Connor but I thought guys were cool with her). Even if the argument is that women should be less represented in the military ranks because of biological shortcomings or whatever, in terms of SW background roles we’re mostly talking about people in leadership roles or people sitting at desks. I can’t really think of a single good reason why there shouldn’t be a roughly equal amount of women in those roles in a fantasy film that is supposed to be divorced from the deep-rooted historical Earthly ideas of gender roles.

The issue here to me is, that Star Wars mostly represented just that even before Disney took over. In the OT women were at the top in the Rebel Alliance. There were also plenty of women in desk jobs. The PT featured female pilots, and Jedi Masters. Padme was both a queen and a senator. Then there’s Ahsoka Tano, and Asajj Ventress in Cloen Wars, who both became fan favourites.

The problem with what came before wasn’t that women were literally nowhere to be found. It was that the ones there were basically token females.

In my mind Rey perfectly embodies the idea of an empowering female character. Her character is not defined by her physical strength at all. What makes her strong is her inner strength: her resilience, her independence, her determination, her ability to strive to do the right thing even if she’s not always sure the best way to get there, her compassion for her friends, and her struggle to grow to believe in herself when all her life she’s been told she’s nothing. Those who focus on her “overpowered” abilities are, of course, looking at the wrong thing entirely.

I think her being overpowered is exactly what stands in the way of her being empowering. The creators were so obsessed with creating a female role model, that they made her too perfect. As such she doesn’t earn her great powers, but just recieves them apparently just because she’s a female protagonist. She had to be better at everything than anybody. God forbid, if she actually needed anyone’s help. Luke survived the Death Star run, because he was rescued by Han Solo. Not so for Rey, she can rescue herself, and I’m sure if Finn, Han and Chewie didn’t come to her rescue, she would have found a way to get of SKB herself. She doesn’t need Luke’s guidance. She will train herself, and become the greatest Jedi ever.

Of course she needs help, she learns important lessons from everyone along the way. Don’t forget, if it was all up to her, she’d still be on Jakku.

Ultimately the point of her strength in both films is that it is a power within her that she need only need believe in herself to tap into. Which is of course the same way it was for Luke. But Rey’s filled with insecurities.

You can debate the tact with which her powers are utilized in the films (I’ll even concede there’s a couple minor fumbles in TFA in this regard), but you’re obviously misconstruing the intent. She doesn’t have powers just because she’s a female protagonist (it honestly seems like you’re just kinda making an argument to fit an agenda when you say that). Plenty of people have complained about JJ Abrams shortcutting his protagonists in other films to success so it’s probably pretty safe to say this isn’t done just because she’s a woman.

Because I can’t sleep, here’s the three main pressure points of her skills in TFA (where I’ll argue if anything narrative shortcutting is more to blame than simply making Rey overpowered):

  • She flies the Falcon to safety. Forget the fact the she almost crashed it when it first took off, and had more trouble with two TIEs than we’ve ever seen anyone have in any of these films, this apparently shows that she’s the best because they made it out alive. But isn’t that how movies work? If you think it should’ve been more challenging, is that really an issue of her being a Mary Sue or of the filmmakers not making a more complicated scene?
  • She uses the mind trick to escape. This one annoys me, I’ll admit it, just because it comes out of nowhere with not much reasoning. But did they do this just because she’s a girl? I mean on the one hand kinda, if Lucas turned the damsel in distress trope on its head in 77, then JJ had to push that to the next level here. And I appreciate that. But is her using the mind trick actually the filmmakers trying to show us that she’s the “best evar”? Or is it them not being able to think of another quick way to escape that also shows she’s become awakened in the force?
  • She uses “the Force” to beat Kylo. Now narratively this makes sense that she’d have this moment where she taps into this force within her that Maz told her about. Logically it makes sense that she should be able to beat a critically injured Kylo. Execution-wise, though, there’s an issue again where it kinda comes out of nowhere. So the issue is less the fact of the matter that Rey won, and more simply the way it was done. Does the apparent ease of her accessing the force in this moment make her a Mary Sue? Or is it again the writers not thinking of a more elegant way to include a “use the force” moment here? Then the planet breaks apart and the two are separated. Essentially a kind of Solo rescue-ish moment, though obviously without the emotional punch because it is an arbitrary and contrived bit where scenery has a big character changing moment rather than a human… and it happens after the fight is over.

My point ultimately being, the claimed ease of these moments does nothing to take away from the character’s main struggles in the film - finding her identity and self worth. If her journey was all about obtaining physical strength and becoming the most powerful Jedi, then I probably wouldn’t even be arguing with you. But that’s not what it is about at all.

Post
#1225579
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

DrDre said:

One other aspect that is often overlooked, is that the problem with sexism is not just with gender roles, and exclusion, it’s also with how we as a society value the gender role. You just have to look at the career fields typically chosen by men and women.

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here, or how it relates to Star Wars. Are you saying that a kind of sexism is treating a typically female job like, say, secretary as lesser than a typical male job? If so, I agree. But again, I don’t see why Star Wars should have to carry over those mindsets (both that secretary is a typically female job and that secretaries are undervalued).

Unlike something like Game of Thrones, where real world sexism is brought into the story and is a big part of what it’s about, Star Wars has never been like that. I think there might be some EU stuff or whatever that says things like “the Empire is misogynist and racist,” but at least in the films anyway the galaxy has been more or less presented as one without gender prejudice. Now obviously Star Wars takes a lot of inspiration from the real world, including, of course, the injustice of oppressed people - but it’s done in a general way. I don’t see why Star Wars should have to port over Earth-based sexism, especially if it’s not a part of the story. So I go back to my point at the beginning. It’s a fantasy, so there’s no logical reason whatsoever that our world’s traditional gender roles need to followed. So why is it even a problem at all if about half of the Resistance is female?

Post
#1225577
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

DrDre said:

Men and women are equal, but not the same. To me continually forcing women into the role of a female Rambo, and calling it feminism or female empowerment is wrong. Men and women are different, and we should celebrate this gender diversity. To me Leia is a much better representation of female strength, and empowerment than most of what the current batch of movies have given us. It should not just be about beating up people, and being in places of power. It should be about having a moral compass, showing resilience, and being an inspirational leader. That’s what Leia was to me, more so than any of the other classic characters, or the new ones. Leia stood up to Darth Vader, despite the fact that he could break her in half. That is true strength.

Ehhhhhh men and women have biological differences that set them apart, sure… but I think these are often overstated, as the majority of the differences between the two genders are caused simply by cultural norms and mindsets.

Are women, on the whole, physically weaker than men? Sure! Do I think that Daisy Ridley could right now beat up literally any dude on this site? Not a doubt in my mind. Point being, it depends.

I can’t speak to “female Rambo” because I must have missed that reboot (or otherwise can’t seem to think of any characters that fit that description… except maybe Sarah Connor but I thought guys were cool with her). Even if the argument is that women should be less represented in the military ranks because of biological shortcomings or whatever, in terms of SW background roles we’re mostly talking about people in leadership roles or people sitting at desks. I can’t really think of a single good reason why there shouldn’t be a roughly equal amount of women in those roles in a fantasy film that is supposed to be divorced from the deep-rooted historical Earthly ideas of gender roles.

In my mind Rey perfectly embodies the idea of an empowering female character. Her character is not defined by her physical strength at all. What makes her strong is her inner strength: her resilience, her independence, her determination, her ability to strive to do the right thing even if she’s not always sure the best way to get there, her compassion for her friends, and her struggle to grow to believe in herself when all her life she’s been told she’s nothing. Those who focus on her “overpowered” abilities are, of course, looking at the wrong thing entirely.

Post
#1225575
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

LexX said:

DominicCobb said:

LexX said:

When I saw TLJ the second time it was all too clear when half of the resistance seemed to be women to the point it just didn’t feel believable, just transparent. The contrast is so stark compared to the OT it’s ridicilous. If you’re really at war and showed people inside battleships there wouldn’t be 50% women. It’s not wrong, it’s not right, that’s just the way it is.

That’s not “the way it is,” that’s just plain fucking dumb. This is a fantasy movie, what it’s like in the “real world” shouldn’t matter.

What doesn’t feel believable is (in a world where sexism supposedly doesn’t exist) 99% of the rebellion and empire are male. There’s no good explanation for that.

LOL, calm down teenager.

Cute, but, of course, inaccurate.

If to you 50% men 50% women in every field should be the way for everything, then you’re the one being sexist by forcing things based on gender. Like ZkinandBonez and Jay said, if people are free to choose to anything they want, 50-50 is the least likely scenario to be in. But if you force this 50-50 everywhere, including a fantasy film which btw has been made and watched here on Earth, it doesn’t feel believable and it’s sexist because forcing. And that is my opinion. The genre doesn’t matter nor what you are being forced to as a viewer. Kinda like in Transformers they force some Chinese connection just to cater Chinese audience. But they aren’t stupid, even they hated it. Forcing things is just movies trying to cater and pander audiences and that is what I hate in modern film. The more they do it, the more transparent it is. It can only take one scene to get you pulled out of a movie, it doesn’t matter what it contains. You can argue about this and I’m sure you will since you don’t do anything else here.

“Forced diversity” is a whole load of bullshit. Believe it or not the real world is actually quite diverse! Anything less than that is simply exclusion, whether forced or simply due to laziness or unconscious bias.

As for the comparison to Transformers and China, oddly enough China is actually one of the biggest world superpowers and has the largest population of any country on the planet, so I don’t think it’s that odd to spend some time there in a globe-trotting movie. As for “forced,” I mean sure you can make the argument that the plot or whatever is unnaturally forced to go out of the way to China (don’t know, haven’t seen). This is where the comparison to Star Wars breaks down though, because there’s nothing “forced” about the casting of a background role. This is honestly a baffling opinion to hold, or it would be baffling if it wasn’t obvious where it was coming from.

As for what else I do on here, fair, though I’m not exactly sure what your lofty contributions have been. I’m all ears though.

I also don’t think the OT was that far off from real military. In SW Leia had even the biggest role in the alliance and then there were like 30 pilots and other crew members in Yavin who were male, seemed realistic. Then on Hoth there were at least 3 women + Leia in the control room, again that’s pretty good. And in ROTJ Mon Mothma gave an important briefing and there were female pilots too. The Empire and FO are another case which I think they should be.

The OT rebels had a lobster admiral which as far as I can tell is neither “realistic” nor “not far off from real military.”

Post
#1225523
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

If IX follows the story that’s been set up so far, we’ll see the trilogy end with the FO defeated to some extent, but with the clear implication that this isn’t a happy ROTJ-esque where everything is and will be great forever - quite the opposite - there’ll be a suggestion that it’s only a matter of time before the dark side rises again. And everyone will complain that they’re just setting up another trilogy, when really they’ll be making a statement about how the fight with never be over, but as long as there are people who will stand to face it, good will win out.

I haven’t read LOTR in awhile but I recall that there’s a similar mindset with the Scouring of the Shire and all that, where the idea is that defeating evil once isn’t enough, you always have to be on the lookout for it.

Post
#1225410
Topic
Is Star Wars catering to girls now?
Time

LexX said:

When I saw TLJ the second time it was all too clear when half of the resistance seemed to be women to the point it just didn’t feel believable, just transparent. The contrast is so stark compared to the OT it’s ridicilous. If you’re really at war and showed people inside battleships there wouldn’t be 50% women. It’s not wrong, it’s not right, that’s just the way it is.

That’s not “the way it is,” that’s just plain fucking dumb. This is a fantasy movie, what it’s like in the “real world” shouldn’t matter.

What doesn’t feel believable is (in a world where sexism supposedly doesn’t exist) 99% of the rebellion and empire are male. There’s no good explanation for that.