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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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27-Jan-2020
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Post
#1322220
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

I know DJ was wrong too, but the movie explicitly tries to make a compromise between DJ’s beliefs and the beliefs of the Resistance, resulting in the whole “save the things you love” scene, which was one of the worst scenes of the movie in my opinion. Throughout the movie, it felt like Rian was trying to make it seem like the heroes and villains should find a compromise, which doesn’t seem like a good lesson for a franchise all about the light always winning.

I’m not sure I understand. “Saving what we love” isn’t about finding a compromise. It’s about caring more for helping people than killing others. It’s the very ethos of the franchise. Selflessness, and all that. Vader takes down the Emperor not because of hatred, but because of love for his son. The Jedi defend what they love, the Sith attack using hatred to fuel them.

I get people not liking the line because it’s on the nose, but the message is very important. I don’t know what it has to do with DJ’s line.

Post
#1322217
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

But I do have somewhat of a problem with the ultimate message of the movie, which is basically “both sides are wrong, the real answer is always in the middle.”

That’s not the message at all.

DominicCobb said:

I saw someone online complaining about DJ’s line “You blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow” line, saying it was a “terrible message.” This is obviously ignoring the fact that literally the next line in the movie is a hero saying “You’re wrong.” But of course if they acknowledged that there wouldn’t be anything to whine about.

Post
#1322204
Topic
Most Disappointing Aspect of Sequel Trilogy? Most Satisfying? * <strong>TROS SPOILERS WITHIN</strong> *
Time

FreezingTNT2 said:

Another disappointing aspect of the sequel trilogy: I thought the idea of having the heroes be chased down by the bad guys in space in The Last Jedi had potential and sounded good on paper, but it had poor execution because it is… a slow-speed space chase that involves fuel. A better space chase idea would be to have the heroes jump into hyperspace, and every time they do so the bad guys jump into hyperspace too so they could keep on following them.

This is literally the plot of a Battlestar Galactica episode, so they probably wanted to avoid directly copying that.

Post
#1322196
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I saw someone online complaining about DJ’s line “You blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow” line, saying it was a “terrible message.” This is obviously ignoring the fact that literally the next line in the movie is a hero saying “You’re wrong.” But of course if they acknowledged that there wouldn’t be anything to whine about.

Post
#1322191
Topic
<em>The Mandalorian</em> - Season One Discussion - * <strong>SPOILER THREAD</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I think The Mandalorian finally disproves the myth that Star Wars fans are impossible to please. The reaction to the show so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Even the small minority of people who don’t like the show aren’t angry about it.

I would say it proves the theory that many have had for awhile, which is that the only way to not make SW fans angry is to not play with the preexisting characters/story at all.

And is that such a big problem? Did they absolutely NEED to make a sequel trilogy? They could have kept Return of the Jedi as the true ending, and no one would have complained.

Well is the goal to try to annoy as little SW fans as possible? Because I think quite a lot of people have enjoyed what they’ve done with the story. As much as I dislike TROS, I’m very thankful for TFA and TLJ, two of the very best SW films they are. I really enjoy Solo as well. I’d hate to lose any of them. I’m sure many prequel fans would say the same about those films, regardless of the fact that they didn’t absolutely NEED to make a prequel trilogy.

To that end, let’s check back in five or so years from now and see if everyone agrees on the quality of the Mandalorian’s final season.

Maybe the show will go downhill by then, we don’t know. It doesn’t mean that Star Wars fans are hypocrites.

I didn’t mean to say SW fans are hypocrites (though many are, but that’s unrelated to what I’m saying). What I meant was Mando is universally pleasing right now because people have no preexisting attachment to the characters. In a few years, when the show is ending, fans will have specific expectations and wants, in a similar way to they do with the main saga.

Make a small-scale TV show that respects the canon and makes the audience care about the characters, and fans will eat it up.

The irony of course being that the show arguably disrespects the canon quite a bit in its treatment of Mandalorian culture.

I thought the show made it clear that Mando’s tribe is an extremist group, not necessarily connected to mainstream Mandalorian culture. Dave Filoni is one of the showrunners, and I doubt he would forget about his own story.

I don’t think that they made that clear at all. But that’s not a problem, because it is very easy to come up with that explanation/interpretation to make the discrepancy work. But there’s always an explanation/interpretation that makes a discrepancy with preexisting canon work. Some fans just refuse to think of what that explanation might be when they hate a work and think it “ruins” SW.

Post
#1322089
Topic
<em>The Mandalorian</em> - Season One Discussion - * <strong>SPOILER THREAD</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

I think The Mandalorian finally disproves the myth that Star Wars fans are impossible to please. The reaction to the show so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Even the small minority of people who don’t like the show aren’t angry about it.

I would say it proves the theory that many have had for awhile, which is that the only way to not make SW fans angry is to not play with the preexisting characters/story at all. To that end, let’s check back in five or so years from now and see if everyone agrees on the quality of the Mandalorian’s final season.

Make a small-scale TV show that respects the canon and makes the audience care about the characters, and fans will eat it up.

The irony of course being that the show arguably disrespects the canon quite a bit in its treatment of Mandalorian culture.

Also, I have a few friends who are haters. They definitely exist. But who cares if there are haters? Like what you like.

Post
#1322081
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, I think it would be hard to really show enough that would be a satisfying answer to that question, I just thought it could be the initial motivation for why Kylo connects with Vader’s helmet.

I had totally forgot about that scene between them. That definitely would need to be changed, but like you said, if you can change it appropriately it could help show the two villains at odds. I think another scene I would like to change somewhat is the First Order meeting.
These scene goes like this:

First Order Officer Quinn speaks up, dismissing the Sith Eternal as “a cult, conjurers and soothsayers.” Pryde refutes these concerns, stating that the resources of the First Order will be increased ten thousand fold by the incorporation of the Sith fleet into their own ranks. With a spiteful glance at a glowering Hux, Pryde notes that the influence of this ancient power will “correct the error of Starkiller Base.” Unconvinced, Quinn wonders aloud if the ships are truly a gift, and what Palpatine might demand in return. In response, Ren brutally chokes the general through the Force and lifts his body to the ceiling. The fallen Jedi then commands his officers to prepare to crush any worlds that will defy the Order, and that he and his acolytes will be hunting the scavenger.

Why Kylo chokes that guy makes so little sense to me. If anything, he probably agrees with Quinn more than anyone else in that room. He’s probably bringing up points that Kylo has already thought about. Like you said, I’ll have to go back and watch it again, but I would really like to be able to end this scene without Kylo choking that officer.

I think the only way to square it is that he’s saying something Kylo knows but is upset by. Like, Kylo doesn’t want to join up with Palpatine but he feels he has to. Asking what Palpatine wants in return sets him off because it’s “kill Rey,” which he doesn’t want to do and he doesn’t want to admit it.

That said, the scene, like any with the mask, is a good candidate for dialogue replacement. I’m just not sure what.

Post
#1322073
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

That’s a fun idea. It would be nice to see some sort of payoff to Luke’s line. I think in JJ’s mind the flashes sort of conveyed this (we see Han’s death still haunting Kylo, as well as visions of Luke, which sort of ties in with Luke saying he’ll always be there just like his father), but in reality the flashes are so quick they accomplish next to nothing, I think.

One thing I’d be worried about would be getting too bogged down trying to show Palpatine’s survival, but if there’s a way to make a sequence to show a further division between Kylo and Palpatine, great.

I already plan to change the dialogue in the scene where Palpatine talks on the phone with Palps, which feels very much like a slip back into ‘Kylo reporting to his master’ territory. I think I know how I’d like it to go, but I’d need to see the scene/dialogue again so I can say exactly how I’d change it. But in the most general sense the idea would be for Kylo to push back against the order to kill Rey and for the scene to end on Palpatine’s “Do not make me turn my fleet against you.”

Post
#1322062
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

Okay, this is making me think of something else.

Since the film has come out, I’ve been keeping a notepad of ideas of sort of “how I would have done it.” Silly, sure, but I’ve found it a healthy way to work through my feelings on the film.

One of the ideas I had, is that you could have accomplished something interesting if Kylo spoken to the ghost of Anakin. But, what if it wasn’t just Anakin, it went back and forth between Anakin and Vader, like in the TFA concept art? And Anakin/Vader talks about how both the darkness and the light lives within him, just as it does in Kylo, and that ultimately the choice is his to make.

So what if we have something like this when Kylo touches Vader’s mask? Make it a scene by itself. Kylo touches the mask, then we cut back and forth to ethereal images of Anakin and Vader fading in and out of black. Hopefully between the two versions there’d be enough dialogue to work with. You could then follow this scene with Kylo repairing his mask, as if the choice he’s made is the dark side (for now).

In my mind, what would have made this work well is if the ghost makes it clear Snoke is the one he had been previously talking to, but now he’s actually talking to his grandfather. With TROS, obviously it’s tricky because of the “every voice inside your head” line. Maybe just cut that?

Post
#1322060
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

I agree, Trevorrow’s script at least had a moment where Rey acknowledged how she would be a different Jedi, when she says to the Force ghosts, “Our master’s were wrong. I will not deny my anger and I will not reject my love.” I think generally that was on the right track. Jedi can’t shun their natural human emotions, they have to acknowledge their feelings and handle them appropriately.

Besides whatever silliness he had about Kylo killing her parents and her kissing Poe, it seemed like his draft treated Rey far better, or at least gave her a story that was a more logical follow up to what came before. Shame.

I wish it could come from Rey, but the only ideas I can think of to make a more explicit way to get this concept across would be to either, a) Give Luke some kind of dialogue that is along those lines when he gives Rey her pep talk, or b) have one or more of the Force ghosts (Luke, Anakin, Ahsoka) say something to Rey along those lines. Maybe we could do both to reinforce that idea. I think it would definitely make sense for Luke to be the one to have came to this conclusion, and pass that truth onto Rey. We would just have to dig around for lines that would fit in well with this idea. There might be a lot more weight to this idea than them just telling her to “Rise, rise, rise” over and over again.

Yeah I was thinking you could add something in Luke’s pep talk, I remember a lot of his dialogue was offscreen (weird considering they reshot it). You probably could add something in the voices scene. That actually reminds me, I had the thought awhile back that perhaps you could even add the voices of people like Maul and Dooku? They were wronged by Palpatine as well. You could potentially make the argument that while Palpatine = pure evil, Maul and Dooku were more complex and didn’t see the dark side that way.

The one idea I had for Rey was to say something like “I’m the darkness and the light” right before she says “I’m all the Jedi.” Tricky though, to find the lines and then to make it seamless.

Post
#1322048
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

I’m guessing they had to go with a look similar to TFA because of her scenes with Leia.

I keep seeing people say this but it’s definitely not true. I mean, first of all, I think there’s pretty much only one Leia moment in TROS that was originally filmed with Rey for TFA (the hug). But more importantly, something like that wouldn’t matter. The only thing they used from the deleted material was Carrie’s head, so the only thing that needed to match was the lighting. I mean, even Leia wasn’t wearing the same outfit.

While it would be difficult to change her outfit through the whole film, it would be interesting if at the end of the film she has a somewhat different look.

I think it would be cool to make her clothes half black/half white, just like you did with Obi-Wan’s in that test you did awhile back. It could also be symbolic of her acknowledging both the light and the darkness in her.

I would absolutely love this. I also had the thought that, when you see Rey light up her saber, instead of seeing hints of blue and green before it ignites, you see blue and red.

Ultimately both of these things would just be sort of subtle subtext, it would really be great if there was some way we could explicitly have her reconcile the light and the dark within her.

Post
#1321984
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

Wexter said:

DominicCobb said:

This is a great example of why it was so stupid for JJ and co. to try to appease the fans. The fans have already made up their minds. You can try to fight something like the “Mary Sue” label, but people will just reinterpret anything to make it fit their narrative. Might as well continue forward with the character as written rather than try to make those happy who will always find some way to complain.

It’s also very stupid to constantly seek validation from fans online. So what if I don’t like some of the narrative decisions they made. They should have still tried to make the best out of it. They should have the balls to stand behind their own decisions. With TROS they just went out of their way to try and address everything you could possibly read online about the sequel trilogy. That goes at the expense of coherent storytelling.

Exactly. Have some confidence in the story you’re telling.

Post
#1321930
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

This is a great example of why it was so stupid for JJ and co. to try to appease the fans. The fans have already made up their minds. You can try to fight something like the “Mary Sue” label, but people will just reinterpret anything to make it fit their narrative. Might as well continue forward with the character as written rather than try to make those happy who will always find some way to complain.

Post
#1321822
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.

And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.

I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”

I’m not making anything up, I’ve posted evidence to back up my arguments. I don’t think I’m warping the content of the films, but since no one is going to change their mind about this, I’m going to leave this thread before things get nasty.

I mean, just for example you said the training scene shows us Rey is a Mary Sue, which is a statement that doesn’t hold up to any sort of scrutiny whatsoever. I explained why, and you had no refutation except to say “well what about the other movies!” It’s one thing to hold up the movies as they are and say, “well I get that this is what they were trying to do, this worked for me but this didn’t, and I think that hurts the character” or whatever. That’s an intelligent conversation. But when you’re being willfully ignorant, like with the training scene, it hurts your argument. I don’t know how to respond other than being snarky, if you’re not going to argue on the level I don’t know how I can.

Post
#1321820
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

It does seem like there was an issue where they felt they needed a primary, ultimate evil, antagonist, because they wanted to redeem Kylo and they felt that wouldn’t be possible if Kylo was that ultimate baddie.

In the OT you had the ultimate evil with the Emperor to contrast to Vader, and another example with Avatar: The Last Airbender, Ozai was the ultimate evil to contrast with Zuko. Both Vader and Zuko found redemption while the ultimate evil was defeated. It almost seems like a narrative rule. But I think it would’ve been compelling to keep Kylo as the ultimate evil, and ask the question, “Can the ultimate evil be saved?”

It’s a lack of imagination. Especially if you’re going to have Kylo be the one to redeem himself, of his own volition (which is what basically happened in this film anyway), you don’t need a bigger bad to face off against. He should be able to look in the mirror and realize for himself what he’s doing is wrong, not just what someone else is doing is wrong.

Post
#1321815
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.

And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.

I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”

Post
#1321809
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.

But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!

Post
#1321781
Topic
The Phantom Menace
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

I feel the same way. The prequels were my introduction to the franchise, and I feel like a lot of the good parts of those movies are being overlooked, but I also agree that they have a lot of bad parts.

I think the tide has officially turned. About ten years ago, you couldn’t find nearly anyone who’d admit to anything good at all about the prequels. Now it’s the opposite, where it seems like many people refuse to accept their poor qualities.

Post
#1321774
Topic
The Phantom Menace
Time

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

Post
#1321658
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.

I disagree. I feel like Luke’s first appearance at Jabba’s palace shows very explicitly that Luke is being tempted by the dark side, and it helps set up his struggle in the throne room. The sail barge scene was a heroic moment, but Luke’s earlier actions are explicitly dark.

I mean I’m happy for you that it plays that way, but to me it never did. The fact that none of this is mentioned at all, especially in Luke’s discussions with Yoda and Ben really drive home how poorly it was handled for me. It’s essentially ambiguous, which doesn’t accomplish anything.

TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.

When do they show those moments? Whenever Rey in TROS does something dark, it’s because she lost control. She didn’t mean to blow up that transport, and she didn’t mean to stab Kylo in the chest. When Luke in ROTJ does something dark, he does it on purpose. He force choked those guards on purpose, and he almost killed his father on purpose. You need to show that the protagonist is consciously turning to the darkness before you show them rejecting the darkness, and I feel like that’s something ROTJ does very well.

I mean, first of all that’s just your interpretation that Luke is consciously turning to the darkness. For me, I see a movie where throughout the runtime Luke says he won’t kill Vader because he sees the good in him, and that he will not turn to the dark side. It’s only while facing Vader that he loses his cool and control. He’s not consciously turning to the dark, in fact he’s doing the exact opposite. The whole point of the scene is that he’s not trying to kill his father on purpose.

Rey fares better because we see multiple moments where she loses her cool and slips towards that dark power, which is a more believable path - like Luke, we already saw Rey reject the offer to join the dark side. We know that they both know consciously that the dark side is the bad side. But TROS and ROTJ are supposed to be about both protagonists slipping towards the dark despite their best intentions. In that regard, ROTJ does not fare as nearly as well.

I will give you this, Rey would have been better served if they had given her a black or near black outfit. But that hardly makes or breaks this.

Post
#1321654
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.

TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.