DominicCobb

Burbin said:

I think changing it to “stormtroopers are rising up” would be clumsy and out of place, it would take away from the whole point of the movie’s ending about how everyone needs to come together to defeat evil, not just some stormtroopers. I actually think the new Finn/Jannah lines work really well with the ending, Finn talks about how the Force brought them together to help the Resistance, and that’s exactly what happens in the end, everyone comes together to help in the fight, which brings an end to both the emerging threat on Exegol and the First Order’s reign over the galaxy.

Finn’s line and the subsequent montage do fill like a quick way to hand-wave away the First Order conflict from the previous movies, but bringing up some random stormtrooper rebellion that we never see would just add to how rushed it all is.

Yes, it’d feel like it came out of nowhere.

Now if someone could figure out a way to build up the storyline throughout the film, and have Finn send out a message to the stormtroopers during the battle, that’d be interesting. It would be ReaL interesting if someone here were working on an idea like that.

I actually think “Final Order” is pretty good shorthand to explain the two organizations are related, but this one is bigger/better. A bit silly but it gets the point across in a movie that doesn’t really slow down to explain what “Sith Eternal” is or whatever.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Personally I always felt that the film makes a clear implication that the power comes from the bond of the dyad.

The lifeforce of your bond… a dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations. And now… the power of two restores the one, true Emperor.

(and then he drains their energy - nearly killing them - and restores his damaged body)

The only thing that confuses this is that Grogu has the power in the Mandalorian, but then you’re dealing with stuff outside the movie.

This is the first I’ve heard that the Force healing came from the dyad. It also seems like Palps can only use this power when they are together, which doesn’t explain Rey’s healing the snake.

If the intention was clear, it sure seems like a lot of people completely missed it.

JEDIT: This isn’t to say I dislike the idea. It’s pretty good, but it would make more sense if the life transfer power only worked to transfer life force from one member of the dyad to another (except for Palps warping it using his own power). The issue again is the snake, which argues that this is just a power that Rey has.

This was my interpretation at least when I first saw the film (or maybe on the second viewing).

I agree I wouldn’t say the film “makes it clear,” just that it makes a “clear implication,” semantics but I just mean I believe the dialogue there is specifically worded to make a link between the power and the dyad. But ultimately, as merely an implication, it would not necessarily be “clear” to many viewers.

Ultimately, again, I believe it comes down to how much explanation one personally wants to explain the power. For me, it’s not something that ever bothered me, I just interpreted it as, they’re part of this dyad gives them extra power/power of life or whatever. They can heal each other, others, snakes, what have you. Because of this bond, Rey instinctively knows how to use it. That’s how I took it, works for me. She read it in a book instead? Sure, why not. It has nothing to do with the dyad? Sure, why not. Personal preference.

Personally I always felt that the film makes a clear implication that the power comes from the bond of the dyad.

The lifeforce of your bond… a dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations. And now… the power of two restores the one, true Emperor.

(and then he drains their energy - nearly killing them - and restores his damaged body)

The only thing that confuses this is that Grogu has the power in the Mandalorian, but then you’re dealing with stuff outside the movie.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yeah, you’re right, Hal.

I do disagree though that Rey explicitly confirming where she learned it from in the scene is useless. What we currently have in the texts is definitely something a more casual viewer could gloss over or be unsure of what exactly it’s referring to. When Rey refers to the texts in the later scene, it ensures that everybody has made the connection from earlier in the film.

I think it ultimately just comes down to how important you think explaining the power to the audience is. Personally I think not very (I wouldn’t mind if you blinked and missed it), but for this edit it’s of course up to Hal to decide.

krlozdac said:

I think Palpatine’s plan was clear enough in that the audience never expects him to be trustworthy about what his true intentions are.

I’ve been thinking, in order to give some useful plot function to Rey’s vision, how about showing glimpses of Kylo Ren using the Wayfinder and going through the Nebula? I think this would motivate Rey checking out the Wayfinder on the book (if that’s still something that’s being kept), which then feeds into her showing Leia. Also it makes it so that when Rey gets the Wayfinder from Kylo’s Tie whisperer, she has at least already seen it there before and it doesn’t feel as much like it’s coming out of nowhere.

I don’t think that’s really necessary. The vision serves as a nice character beat for Rey in a film that is so much of just plot plot plot. She’s also very distraught by the vision so the idea that she’s gleaming useful information would feel incongruous. Plus in general it’s solving a problem I don’t think needs fixing - Rey knowing about the wayfinders in the first place, since as we see it’s in the book.

And when she looks for one in Kylo’s ship, it’s not coming from nowhere. First of all Lando says that two were made. It’s simple logic that if Kylo has been to Exegol he must have used the other one.

krlozdac said:

I applaud the incredible rendition for the Force healing illustration. However, I do think that at a conceptual level, it is a tad coincidental that Rey was reading up about that particular power the very day she would need to use it twice (and presumably for the first time since it is suggested she doesn’t leave the base).

I think having her verbally tell BB-8 that she read up on it in the books is enough of an explanation if one would actually want to include one. I personally don’t think it’s super necessary to have any explanation (after all, nobody questioned Baby Yoda using it) but that’s beside the point, I guess.

Alluding to the concept of Force healing before it happens feels a tad premature imo vs having Rey look up the Wayfinder on the book because she saw it in her vision, which serves a plot function that strenghten the connective tissue of the whole first act and pays off in the third act.

Showing, as they say, is better than telling. I honestly personally think the illustration change is good and the line to BB-8 is not worth the hassle. I agree that you don’t even really need to show the force healing illustration either but I think between the two (force healing vs. wayfinder) it’s the stronger choice.

Truthfully if we were to go through and try to fix every coincidence in a Star Wars film it would never end. There’s nothing to suggest Rey is only seeing this page for the first time, in fact she’s actually flipping back to it in the shot rather than flipping forward to it. If anything you could interpret the force healing illustration as a pet concept that has fascinated her since she started reading the books.

Basically, I think it’s a stronger choice to show something that develops Rey’s character (both with the book and the vision) than to overcomplicate things solely for the purpose of fixing a coincidence. I think the plot point of the wayfinders is made fairly clear a number of times to not need further screentime.

I think it’s vague enough on the specifics that everything can still mesh. She says everyone’s heard Finn’s story, not necessarily that they all discussed it and agreed they should do it too. More likely, when they talked about the story they would have been afraid to openly voice any support for what he did.

So when they all put their weapons down, it was more like the instinctual feeling knowing that they would all do the same thing then and there, that it was the right thing to do, regardless of what was or wasn’t said.

RogueLeader said:

I had a go at the Finn and Jannah scene.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JVfNWEHbAeUcyaNeV9w66N-iYoT2XSiJ

Fuck, I could cry that’s perfect.

If Palpatine AI is on the table, there’s definitely things that can be done. His mouth isn’t visible for a lot of his dialogue.

In particular his first scenes with Kylo and Rey are ones where there’s space for exposition. If we’re trying to make the throne the source of power, there’s space in one or both of those scenes to spell that out - either subtly or explicitly.

One thing I’m looking at in particular is some sort of explanation for why Palpatine had her parents killed, which doesn’t really make sense. You could use for Rey Palpatine or Rey Nobody (depending on parental involvement).

Something like changing

"It is your birthright to rule. It is in your blood. Our blood.”

to

“I killed your parents to fuel the darkness in you. Through pain, I gave your life meaning.”

krlozdac said:

I like the idea but I feel like it is important to reestablish her parents importance in her story considering the movie is about to talk a whole lot about that.

Yeah for sure. He doesn’t say they abandoned her, just “Do you still count the days since your parents left?” Essentially just setting up that it’s still unresolved business for her, and apparently the audience as well.

oviniboy said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

oviniboy said:

i even wonder if someone should aknowledge the broken saber itself, maybe Kylo.

And all other scenes after that between them have important dialog that can’t really be interrupted.

Well, at least in the Rey Nobody version, the force-skype fight when Rey is on Kylo’s white room and Kylo is on Kijimi seens to be the place to fit something like that.
Kylo is again just tempting Rey to give into her anger, talking about how he wants her to know her full story, and Rey is falling for it, i think the dialogue here can be revised a bit to acknowledge the crackly saber and/or her place as Skywalker.

I’m doing this exact thing in my edit.

NeverarGreat said:

I like your latest vision, though I do think the saber breaking is a bit odd. I’ve found in general, the simpler the better with visions.

Yes, so I’d be cautious of adding too many lines of dialogue. I think stick with one, and in that case “You went straight to the dark” is the most pointed.

Hal 9000 said:

Here’s an updated vision sequence.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JYKveluSYkKQ--zSWQjxNZ-xgPyhI1pa/view?usp=share_link

I like it!

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, it’s the cruft that Hal has talked about. And I tried to use the same method I used to clean up Poe’s dialogue but it doesn’t work.

These are just some random lines I spat out real quick to test it:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18R7jtXjYzgKaLAgMriWPk7Ku10rayCw_

It’s something you might be able to get away with through the narrative filter of holograms or masks, like in Kylo’s case, but when they’re just speaking out loud it doesn’t hold up.

I hear what you’re saying. It honestly still sounds pretty good, although I believe you if you say it doesn’t match up.

I think the other issue is that McDiarmid tends to perform a bit more than the AI seems able to capture.

RogueLeader said:

Both fair points.

Also, I played around with a Palpatine AI voice just so we know if all this is even worth discussing, and I’ll admit I’m honestly surprised with it. With that said, I still don’t think any AI dialogue would even hold up with the surrounding dialogue.

Anyway, we can drop the Palpatine stuff. Like I said, I think this is the only scene you could seamlessly use Palpatine AI voice.

What’s the issue with the Palp voice, audio quality?

RogueLeader said:

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Continuing a convo from the Ascendant thread (though this would be relevant for Rey Nobody as well)

NeverarGreat said:

The thing is, Rey has never wanted power, which is the issue with this entire ending. There’s nothing that Palpatine can give her that she genuinely wants, other than a sense of belonging and family, so with the revelation about him as her grandfather, she has just as much reason to want him alive as she does to kill him.

Rey doesn’t want power, she doesn’t want to rule the galaxy.

She wants to be a Jedi and gain a family, so unless Palpatine’s plan can give her that he has no angle.

So hang on a sec, here’s an idea: What if Palpatine reveals the reason that Rey can’t connect with the Jedi of the past is because he personally is blocking that connection?

“Do you know why the Jedi reject you? Because of me.”

“Kill me, and the spirit of the Jedi shall pass into you.”

We know he’s lying about that of course, but at least he’s offering her something she would genuinely want. And when she is finally able to call the Jedi to her in her final moment, it is the culmination of Rey rejecting Palpatine’s lie.

The angle I’m going for right now is control. Rey has this raw power, but she really doesn’t have any control over it. She hurts BB-8 during her training, she almost kills Chewbacca, she Force-pushes Finn on the Death Star, and she almost kills Kylo/Ben. Her raw, uncontrollable power is a threat to her belonging and family, which ties into her sense of self-worth. She fears she isn’t good enough for a family, that she might just hurt the ones she cares about. She might lose her family if she joined the Sith, but they might die if she doesn’t, or get hurt by her if she can’t learn to control her powers. She feels trapped, and doesn’t know what to do.

Basically, “if you can’t control the dark side, the dark side will control you.” That’s the argument the villains are making. Palpatine and Kylo Ren both offer her ways to do so. But there’s a catch with both.

Not saying it is the best approach ever, but I think it at least gives more of a plausible reason Rey might be even a little tempted to join either of them.

Most of this idea would be framed by Kylo in new dialogue, but I think everything else that already exists would support it well.

I dig it. So you have AI line ideas for this?

I actually have each conversation mapped out, with a few to several options for certain lines. 😅 Honestly had avoided thinking about it the past year or two, but this voice AI stuff kind of sparked my brain again. I think it needs some adjustments, to make it all focused, but it feels closer than it has ever been before. At least my version of it.

I could share it here and maybe it could be hammered out.

Please do! I’m struggling to recapture all the blue sky thoughts I’ve had over the past few years that I never wrote down because I never thought they’d be feasible.

NeverarGreat said:

Apropos of nothing, but:

STAR WARS EPISODE IX

THRONE OF THE SITH

Consider:

Kylo tracks down a Sith Wayfinder on Mustafar, Darth Vader’s lair.

Rey has frightening visions during training, visions of herself on a dark throne.

The second Wayfinder is located in the Emperor’s throne room on the Death Star.

Both Snoke and Palpatine reborn originated on Exegol, brought to life through ‘Secrets only the Sith knew’.

Palpatine performs his most powerful acts in the vicinity of the throne on Exegol, and his most powerful act while sitting upon the throne.

Conclusion: The Throne in Exegol is the Sith’s source of power and the secret to their resurrection. The Wayfarers are a way of extending that power to the lairs of the two Sith that exist in the galaxy at any one time.

Suggested Edits:

• Give more emphasis to Rey’s vision of the Exegol throne.

• When Rey calls upon the Jedi for the final time, after the Jedi give their generic support, Yoda’s voice gives her a specific instruction: “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Knowledge…and defense.”

• When Rey turns over after hearing these voices, her hand strikes the ground as if touching this place for the first time. Just like when she touched Anakin’s lightsaber, she sees visions in her mind. She sees the Exegol throne, the Wayfarers, the Death Star throne, and, from somewhere, the image of Vader’s castle and his throne (perhaps taken from the Kenobi show). The answer comes to her mind: “The Throne.” The voice of Luke responds. “Yes, Rey. You have everything you need.”

• When Rey stands and confronts Palpatine, she is able to use the first saber to block his Force lightning, but when she uses the second saber, it is to direct some of the lightning in another direction. It flies over Palpatine’s head and strikes the throne, impacting it with tremendous force. The stone seat erupts with power and is destroyed, along with Palpatine and the entire fortress around them.

Benefits:

• It gives a reason for the Macguffin-heavy scavenger hunt over the course of the film, setting up these places of power to emphasize that they are important for understanding this revelation.

• It is more reasonable for Rey to use two sabers at the end, to protect herself as well as direct lightning elsewhere.

• It suggests that the Exegol throne is a powerful Sith artifact capable of returning Sith to life, and it also suggests that Snoke was another ancient Sith spirit brought back to life by this artifact.

• It reveals the difference between Jedi and Sith, and shows that Rey is a Jedi by her actions of thinking things through and protecting herself rather than using power to defeat her enemy. Furthermore, it is a symbolic rejection of the power that Palpatine represents.

• Finally, it explains why this defeat of the Sith is more final than any prior defeat, giving this story far more closure.

So what do you think?

This is a great idea although I wonder if it’s one of those situations where it would have been better if they had just written it that way - worried about adding yet another object of significance. But I can see the argument that it would actually focus things. Wonder how this would all be accomplished.

RogueLeader said:

Continuing a convo from the Ascendant thread (though this would be relevant for Rey Nobody as well)

NeverarGreat said:

The thing is, Rey has never wanted power, which is the issue with this entire ending. There’s nothing that Palpatine can give her that she genuinely wants, other than a sense of belonging and family, so with the revelation about him as her grandfather, she has just as much reason to want him alive as she does to kill him.

Rey doesn’t want power, she doesn’t want to rule the galaxy.

She wants to be a Jedi and gain a family, so unless Palpatine’s plan can give her that he has no angle.

So hang on a sec, here’s an idea: What if Palpatine reveals the reason that Rey can’t connect with the Jedi of the past is because he personally is blocking that connection?

“Do you know why the Jedi reject you? Because of me.”

“Kill me, and the spirit of the Jedi shall pass into you.”

We know he’s lying about that of course, but at least he’s offering her something she would genuinely want. And when she is finally able to call the Jedi to her in her final moment, it is the culmination of Rey rejecting Palpatine’s lie.

The angle I’m going for right now is control. Rey has this raw power, but she really doesn’t have any control over it. She hurts BB-8 during her training, she almost kills Chewbacca, she Force-pushes Finn on the Death Star, and she almost kills Kylo/Ben. Her raw, uncontrollable power is a threat to her belonging and family, which ties into her sense of self-worth. She fears she isn’t good enough for a family, that she might just hurt the ones she cares about. She might lose her family if she joined the Sith, but they might die if she doesn’t, or get hurt by her if she can’t learn to control her powers. She feels trapped, and doesn’t know what to do.

Basically, “if you can’t control the dark side, the dark side will control you.” That’s the argument the villains are making. Palpatine and Kylo Ren both offer her ways to do so. But there’s a catch with both.

Not saying it is the best approach ever, but I think it at least gives more of a plausible reason Rey might be even a little tempted to join either of them.

Most of this idea would be framed by Kylo in new dialogue, but I think everything else that already exists would support it well.

I dig it. So you have AI line ideas for this?

NeverarGreat said:

“I never wanted you dead…I wanted you strong…Empress Palpatine.”

I like the simplicity of that.

Also makes me think something else. I would say maybe the stupidest part of Palpatine’s plan is that he orders Ochi to kill the only people who know where Rey is and doesn’t send anyone to look for her after. Is there a way we can make that on purpose? A line from him saying “I killed your parents to fuel the darkness in you” something like that.

RogueLeader said:

In this context, Luke is saying that Leia knew Rey has a good spirit and heart because their bond was stronger than blood. I don’t think it is a non-sequitur.
Luke’s basically saying, “Leia saws those dark vision of you too, but she trained you anyway, because she saw your true spirit. She knew the real you, because your bond was stronger than blood.” That’s the idea at least.

Hmm, I get what you mean now, maybe there’s a line to be made that could get that idea across.

RogueLeader said:

DominicCobb said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I kinda think that scene is already pretty thin and short, I don’t know personally if what you gain from adding this Leia line is enough to cut out a couple of the back and forths and making it even shorter.

Whereas in a Rey Nobody you kind of have no choice but to cut it down. Speaking of, what was the alt line we landed on for this? “Leia sensed your struggle with the dark side”? Can you add that to the google drive?

I agree with you that I think the scenes would be better served if we keep as much of it as possible. The more you trim, the more edited it feels.

I actually disagree that it has to be cut down at all for Rey Nobody. I think you could keep the same amount of lines with just slight word changes and additions. The only line that would need to be cut would be “Because you’re a Palpatine.”

EDIT: For reference (with some slight touches for preference)

Luke (off screen): Leia saw it, too.
Rey: She didn’t tell me. She still trained me.
Luke (off screen): Because she saw your spirit-
Luke (on screen): -your heart.
Luke (off screen): She knew, because-
Luke (on screen): -some things are stronger than blood.
Luke (off screen): Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. A constant struggle. If you don’t face it-
Luke (on screen): -it will mean the end of the Jedi.
Luke (off screen): And you will be lost.
Luke (wide): There’s something my sister would want you to have.

Sometimes I think less is more.
(“A constant struggle” could also be Always”. Just thought it would be a more useful lesson than just saying “your destiny”)

I’m not sure the “stronger than blood” really works, it’s kind of a non sequitur since they’re not talking about her family or lineage. Maybe there’s a way to fit it but I don’t know what. Liking the rest though!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yup, remove that like all other versions of Ascendant.

To make it more clear, we could have him say: “Leia also struggled with family legacy.”

Here it is all laid out:

Luke: “What are you most afraid of?”

Rey: “Myself.”

Luke: “Because you’re a Palpatine? Leia also struggled with family legacy.”

Rey: “She didn’t tell me.”

Luke: “Rey, some things are stronger than blood…”

Or, to make it clearer still, it could be “Leia also struggled with infamous legacy.”

I kinda think that scene is already pretty thin and short, I don’t know personally if what you gain from adding this Leia line is enough to cut out a couple of the back and forths and making it even shorter.

Whereas in a Rey Nobody you kind of have no choice but to cut it down. Speaking of, what was the alt line we landed on for this? “Leia sensed your struggle with the dark side”? Can you add that to the google drive?

NeverarGreat said:

DZ-330 said:

NeverarGreat said:

A mockup of the Force Healing illustration:

That looks incredible! I do wonder if there can be some “>” arrows added on the line to better illustrate the person with his hand on the other is actually sending energy over, not draining it.

Done!

The talent! Great work.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

How many times have I redone this single scene today? Lmao:

https://youtu.be/2MdQdcov7VQ?si=rpRbTrVx5sdKc4R8

I think this is the winner.

DZ-330 said:

DZ-330 said:

“I started to train her, and she was a quick learner."

Leia kicks Luke’s ass

"But Leia felt she could better serve the galaxy through diplomacy, as our mother once did. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, it would be picked up again by someone who would finish her journey. A thousand generations live in you now. We’ll always be with you, but this is your fight.”

@JarJar, can you try this one? The new one isn’t bad, but I think that initial line misses that Leia only trained briefly.

Seems like maybe keeping the length of her training completely in the dark is maybe the cleanest solution.

“Leia was quick to learn during our training”