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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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24-Sep-2018
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Post
#1242846
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Personally I do not think film genre classification should be constricted by the apparently rather narrow rules set forth by the publishing industry. To say that a space opera is only sci-fi and therefore has no elements whatsoever of any other genre just seems patently false to me. You state yourself that the genre was born out of planetary romance. Well then, would you mind telling me what what the genre of romance is?

If we’re going to operate solely with in established definitions, here’s from Wikipedia:

Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that emphasizes space warfare, melodramatic adventure, interplanetary battles, chivalric romance, and risk-taking.

Hmm, chivalric romance…

Romance or chivalric romance is a type of prose and verse narrative that was popular in the aristocratic circles of High Medieval and Early Modern Europe. They were fantastic stories about marvel-filled adventures, often of a chivalric knight-errant portrayed as having heroic qualities, who goes on a quest… Romances reworked legends, fairy tales, and history to suit the readers’ and hearers’ tastes…
(interestingly enough the page goes on to reference Tolkien and The Tempest…)

Now about “planetary romance”

Planetary romance is a subgenre of science fiction or science fantasy

Science fantasy?

Science fantasy is a mixed genre within the umbrella of speculative fiction which simultaneously draws upon and/or combines tropes and elements from both science fiction and fantasy. In a science fiction story the world is scientifically possible, while a science fantasy world contains elements which violate the scientific laws of the real world. Nevertheless the world of science fantasy is logical and often is supplied with science-like explanations of these violations.

Weird.

Side note: Wikipedia actually presents a convincing argument for Star Wars fitting best into another genre: mythopoeia (a phrase created by Tolkien).

Post
#1242824
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

dahmage said:

genres are used to provide a classification for a movie, so in my mind they are fluid.

For example.

if you are trying to decide what part of a product catalog to list it in, you will be using one set of criteria, and will probably list it as Sci Fi

if you are talking to a friend and comparing Star Wars to any other sci-fi movie, you are then more likely to reach for more descriptive, specific genres, and will say that Star wars is more of a Space Fantasy than your typical sci-fi story.

One of the key tropes/hallmarks that makes most Epic Fantasy is the nature of the forces of evil. Not only is their leader corrupt and twisted, but the forces themselves are corrupt and twisted. In both mind and body. At times they stories verge on horror due to the nature of the evil that infest the armies and agents of the chief antagonist. And typically the side of good is relying on some great talisman. This deep and pervasive evil is completely missing in Star Wars. Palpatine is relying on the force, but also on human frailties. He plays politics and uses his skill in that area to maintain control while pretending to be the puppet instead of the puppet master. Stormtroopers are just soldiers. It is about humans subverted by an evil leader, not by evil itself which is where most fantasy takes you. The struggle in fantasy brings the good and evil battle into the world where Star Wars puts the battle internal to each individual. So to me, Star Wars is nothing like any fantasy story I’ve encountered. It is too rooted in reality.

In the OT at least, nothing of what you said about Palpatine is true. He is everything the corrupt and twisted force of evil you describe. Whether the stormtroopers are just soldiers doesn’t matter, as we don’t know anything about their nature. Although if you want to bring the prequels into it, the clones are very much suggested to be twisted corrupt drones who operate on Palpatine’s whim.

And the battle of good vs. evil is not just internal in Star Wars. The Force is explicitly a power that binds the fate of the galaxy together. Palpatine is not just “an evil leader,” he is a literal Force for evil itself - the dark side.

You also seem to have a weird definition for fantasy, wherein only the most rigid and narrow storytelling aspects fit the genre, whereas with your definition of sci-fi, pretty much anything goes. I guess I just don’t know How It Works when you’re in the unimpeachable world of publishing.

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Just pure lunacy. It is one thing to disagree about what the primary genre is, but to pretend like it is only one genre, with no elements of any other genre present is just ridiculous. Either you’re being willfully ignorant/obtuse, or you seriously need educate yourself better on Lucas’s influences. He wasn’t just taking from “space operas,” and I think you know it.

Yes, but when you are talking about SF vs. fantasy, he was only taking from SF. I have never heard of a single fantasy that inspired him. Not one. Myths, yes. Samurai, yes, Cambell, yes. Fantasy, no. When it comes to genre, Star Wars is 100% science fiction with no fantasy influences at all. Not one. And as I’ve pointed out many times, myths and legends and even religion has been fodder for science fiction forever. He specifically drew from Flash Gordon (which was a copy of Buck Rogers so even if he didn’t directly borrow from Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon had already done that), Asimov’s Foundation, Herbert’s Dune, and Star Trek (which itself was a copy of Forbidden Planet - at least partially). The Star Wars universe benefits from this and the technology is solid and realistic (as much as any science fiction is).

To say that Lucas took more from Asimov than fantasy is not only absurd on the face it of, but factually untrue. I don’t recall ever hearing that Lucas was inspired by Foundation. There doesn’t seem to be any influence from Star Trek that I can tell (besides what not to do), and I’ll give you Forbidden Planet, but even then we mustn’t forget is just an adaptation of The Tempest.

On the other hand, one of Star Wars’s most well documented influences was Hidden Fortress, a fantastical fairy tale. Little spoken of, but Lucas also screened Fellini’s Satyricon - a fantasy drama - for his crew during the production of the original film. Not to mention Wizard of Oz, whose similarities in storytelling to Star Wars are incredibly obvious. With the myths and legends of Campbell, I’d think those all fall under the purview of fantasy (even if many weren’t technically written as such at the time, they have become the basis for the storytelling and structure of the fantasy genre). And then there’s, of course, Tolkien - not only is it common knowledge that Lucas took inspiration from him (and it’s easy to see the parallels), but there’s direct evidence of such in the third draft script (a near direct lift from the Hobbit):

BEN
Good morning!

LUKE
What do you mean, ‘good morning’? Do you mean that it is a good morning for you, or do you wish me a good morning, although it is obvious I’m not having one, or do you find that mornings in general are good?

BEN
All of them altogether.

https://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-star-wars-from-the-adventures-of-luke-starkiller-third-draft/

Your take that the Jedi are wizards ignores the decades of similar characters in science fiction. Your take that the force is magic ignores the decades of fantastic powers in characters in science fiction. Your take that the story structure is a fantasy quest ignores the decades of science fiction quest stories. You are focused on it being fantasy because Lucas said so and have this image of science fiction as a genre based on realistic science and we all know how well Lucas can BS and very little science fiction is based on realistic science but rather pseudoscience extrapolated from possibilities that can range from likely to near impossible. There is nothing in Star Wars that deviates from the Space Opera standards.

It’s one thing to say that none of the fantastical things in Star Wars disqualifies it as sci-fi, because there’s precedent for those things in sci-fi. But it’s another thing entirely to pretend that the fanatical things in Star Wars have nothing to do with fantasy at all and are “100% sci-fi.” No one in their right mind would look at a wizard character and think first of the handful of examples of that from “space operas.” That’s a fantasy archetype, plain and simple. To say it’s not is intellectually dishonest, at best. Anyone with any bit of sense would recognize that Ben Kenobi fits far more into the mould of Gandalf and Merlin than Gary Mitchell.

Which is to say nothing of the other genres that Star Wars encompasses. To simplify it all as “space opera” is incredibly reductive. And then to say that because it is “space opera” makes it 100% sci-fi is incredibly debatable. If anything I’d say space opera is too diverse a style to shoehorn into merely a sub-genre of sci-fi. And I really don’t give a shit how Amazon classifies them. There is no remotely infallible way to label and categorize everything. Especially once you have things that straddle multiple definitions, it’s entirely unfair to pretend like they can fit into just one category and fit perfectly there.

So we have one line of dialog in one version of the script that was cut. Okay. What other way did Tolkien influence Star Wars?

The influence is clear. The wizened mentor. The nobody kid hero. The secret mission to destroy an evil and powerful weapon. The rogue in the bar. Etc. Much of the commonalities are fantasy/fairy tale tropes and not specific to Tolkien but they are fantasy/fairy tale storytelling tropes and they are in Star Wars.

And I own Hidden Fortress and it is not a fantasy. Just a solid samurai drama.

Since apparently it’s a requirement to talk about it, yes I own it too and have seen it multiple times. Calling it a “samurai drama” is somewhat inaccurate, yes there are samurai in it but it is very firmly a fairy tale story with a mystical vibe (even if admittedly there are no explicit supernatural elements - though there are other Kurosawa and samurai pictures that contain as much).

From Foundation comes the galactic empire. Tyrannical Emperors. Great Imperial fleets fighting rebellion… basically most of the setting.

I’ve never heard of Lucas taking inspiration from Foundation. The similarities you state are things that are pretty common in all different types of genres, not specifically sci-fi. It’s entirely likely that both Lucas and Asimov took inspiration from historical and otherwise mythical Empires.

From Dune you get a desert planet, mystic religions with strange powers, the voice, and a young boy thrust into the spot light.

I’d say Dune faces a similar question to Star Wars in regards to genre classification.

From Hidden Fortress you get the journey (one of the drafts is virtually a direct copy of Hidden Fortress) and the droids (typical Japanese comic relief characters). And there is so much taken from Flash Gordon (Which I would say is the main inspiration for the entire idea of Star Wars) which has Ming the merciless, princesses, and epic fight against incredible odds, and so much more. Flash Gordon runs closer to (but not overlapping) fantasy than Star Wars does. Lucas made Star Wars much more grounded, gritty, and realistic.

Again, Flash Gordon is somewhat of a genre-bender. It fits into “space opera” but that is a very kitchen-sink sort of category, and not wholly science fiction, despite what Amazon and bookstores tell you.

And while it is true that Lucas started out wanting to simply do Flash Gordon, what he eventually came up with was much more unique and a pastiche of loads of other things - not just space opera serials. I’d say Star Wars’s rugged, grounded approach has more to do with the influence of western, war films and other non-genre pictures than sci-fi works. Remember that at the time Lucas’s decision to make it “gritty” was going against the grain of typical sci-fi.

I’ve always taken Owen’s use of the word Wizard in referring to Ben as an insult and not a reflection of his role in the story. In the Campbell structure, he is the mentor. He is less magical than he is mysterious. I’ve always considered the Jedi as powerful warriors and see the little force tricks as nothing terribly important for pinning the genre. In the end, nothing about the story is determined by exhibitions of the force. And wizard’s don’t typically do battle with swords. Ben is an old knight, not an old wizard. He is more veteran samurai than Merlin.

Yoda literally outright dispels the notion that Jedi are simply “powerful warriors.” As I’ve said before, the story is all about the Force, far beyond the “little tricks” you mention. And using a sword is by no means a disqualification for being a wizard. Not to mention, what you claim he is instead - a samurai - still has nothing to do with sci-fi. So any reasonable person would recognize him as a samurai-esque wizard, and nothing at all like the “ESP” using characters in other sci-fi you’ve mentioned (there are essential zero similarities of any importance to Gary Mitchell, who you constantly bring up).

Post
#1242796
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Just pure lunacy. It is one thing to disagree about what the primary genre is, but to pretend like it is only one genre, with no elements of any other genre present is just ridiculous. Either you’re being willfully ignorant/obtuse, or you seriously need educate yourself better on Lucas’s influences. He wasn’t just taking from “space operas,” and I think you know it.

Yes, but when you are talking about SF vs. fantasy, he was only taking from SF. I have never heard of a single fantasy that inspired him. Not one. Myths, yes. Samurai, yes, Cambell, yes. Fantasy, no. When it comes to genre, Star Wars is 100% science fiction with no fantasy influences at all. Not one. And as I’ve pointed out many times, myths and legends and even religion has been fodder for science fiction forever. He specifically drew from Flash Gordon (which was a copy of Buck Rogers so even if he didn’t directly borrow from Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon had already done that), Asimov’s Foundation, Herbert’s Dune, and Star Trek (which itself was a copy of Forbidden Planet - at least partially). The Star Wars universe benefits from this and the technology is solid and realistic (as much as any science fiction is).

To say that Lucas took more from Asimov than fantasy is not only absurd on the face it of, but factually untrue. I don’t recall ever hearing that Lucas was inspired by Foundation. There doesn’t seem to be any influence from Star Trek that I can tell (besides what not to do), and I’ll give you Forbidden Planet, but even then we mustn’t forget is just an adaptation of The Tempest.

On the other hand, one of Star Wars’s most well documented influences was Hidden Fortress, a fantastical fairy tale. Little spoken of, but Lucas also screened Fellini’s Satyricon - a fantasy drama - for his crew during the production of the original film. Not to mention Wizard of Oz, whose similarities in storytelling to Star Wars are incredibly obvious. With the myths and legends of Campbell, I’d think those all fall under the purview of fantasy (even if many weren’t technically written as such at the time, they have become the basis for the storytelling and structure of the fantasy genre). And then there’s, of course, Tolkien - not only is it common knowledge that Lucas took inspiration from him (and it’s easy to see the parallels), but there’s direct evidence of such in the third draft script (a near direct lift from the Hobbit):

BEN
Good morning!

LUKE
What do you mean, ‘good morning’? Do you mean that it is a good morning for you, or do you wish me a good morning, although it is obvious I’m not having one, or do you find that mornings in general are good?

BEN
All of them altogether.

https://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/the-star-wars-from-the-adventures-of-luke-starkiller-third-draft/

Your take that the Jedi are wizards ignores the decades of similar characters in science fiction. Your take that the force is magic ignores the decades of fantastic powers in characters in science fiction. Your take that the story structure is a fantasy quest ignores the decades of science fiction quest stories. You are focused on it being fantasy because Lucas said so and have this image of science fiction as a genre based on realistic science and we all know how well Lucas can BS and very little science fiction is based on realistic science but rather pseudoscience extrapolated from possibilities that can range from likely to near impossible. There is nothing in Star Wars that deviates from the Space Opera standards.

It’s one thing to say that none of the fantastical things in Star Wars disqualifies it as sci-fi, because there’s precedent for those things in sci-fi. But it’s another thing entirely to pretend that the fanatical things in Star Wars have nothing to do with fantasy at all and are “100% sci-fi.” No one in their right mind would look at a wizard character and think first of the handful of examples of that from “space operas.” That’s a fantasy archetype, plain and simple. To say it’s not is intellectually dishonest, at best. Anyone with any bit of sense would recognize that Ben Kenobi fits far more into the mould of Gandalf and Merlin than Gary Mitchell.

Which is to say nothing of the other genres that Star Wars encompasses. To simplify it all as “space opera” is incredibly reductive. And then to say that because it is “space opera” makes it 100% sci-fi is incredibly debatable. If anything I’d say space opera is too diverse a style to shoehorn into merely a sub-genre of sci-fi. And I really don’t give a shit how Amazon classifies them. There is no remotely infallible way to label and categorize everything. Especially once you have things that straddle multiple definitions, it’s entirely unfair to pretend like they can fit into just one category and fit perfectly there.

Post
#1242704
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

RogueLeader said:

Thanks! And I totally understand what you’re saying. I don’t think it could work for every edit, but I think it might work for some. I’ll have to try to put it together sometime and see if it could work at all.

And you’re right, I didn’t realize just how many scenes there were in this part of the movie until now. Honestly I think it is sort of a side effect of George waiting to tell the bulk of the story until the third movie in the trilogy.

It’s honestly the section where 80% of the film’s problems lie. The rest of the movie is pay off for stuff that should have but didn’t occur in that section, which you’re definitely right is partly because of the last minute cram nature of the trilogy.

Post
#1242701
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

Just pure lunacy. It is one thing to disagree about what the primary genre is, but to pretend like it is only one genre, with no elements of any other genre present is just ridiculous. Either you’re being willfully ignorant/obtuse, or you seriously need educate yourself better on Lucas’s influences. He wasn’t just taking from “space operas,” and I think you know it.

Post
#1242688
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

RogueLeader said:

Ah, I see what you’re saying. That’s a good point. Though I don’t think it has to be before the Palpatine deleted scene, does it?

You don’t have to, but it might be odd for Anakin to see Padme openly confront the chancellor, then be surprised after to hear her air grievances with him in private (though of course what is discussed in the scenes aren’t exactly the same).

I think if you were to to try to put it in your ROTS, hypothetically, Dom, you could just swap the first deleted scene with third, the second with the first, and then put the second deleted scene inbetween “You’re sounding like a seperatist” and the Kashyyyk scene, with maybe some type of Coruscant establishing shot to create a buffer between those two Coruscant scenes to maybe imply time has passed and it’s the next day.

It’d be a little complicated with my edit, especially as I’ve excised the second scene entirely. The other thing I’m weary about is that section of the film feeling to jumpy from scene to scene with little connective tissue between them. This is a problem with the theatrical ROTS, and honestly most fan edits have only made this aspect worse (in my opinion, though of course I think they’ve on the whole improved the film). I’ve put a lot of thought into how I’ve structured that section, and while the way I have it now is by no means set in stone, I’d definitely have to do some real thinking on this possibility before chancing an implementation. I do really like where your head’s at on this idea, though.

Post
#1242675
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

RogueLeader said:

Thanks! I don’t think it would have to be cut, necessarily. I just figured that that scene served a similar purpose, so it could be replaced if everything couldn’t fit.

I would think it would be a scene you’d want to make sure you don’t cut, as it feels to me like the only part of the theatrical film that links to those deleted scenes.

I’d think, with your idea, you’d want to place the Palpatine deleted scene after the “sounding like a separatist” scene. Anakin says that he’s not the one to talk to about this, so she goes a different way. Then later it might help your implication that the Jedi she’s referring to is Obi-Wan, if we know that she’s already been rebuffed by Anakin.

Post
#1242641
Topic
Last movie seen
Time

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

Two for the Road – This is the first mainstream American film I can think of to have a nonlinear plot. Fascinating in that regard.

What about Citizen Kane (1941)? Also, isn’t that a British film?

It’s directed by Stanley Donen and came through the studio system (Fox), so if it’s not American, it’s still Hollywood. And Citizen Kane was kind of linear, really, just going from flashback to flashback from person to person. Not to deny that film its due. Two for the Road is more avant garde in regards to structure, the timeline for the movie goes back and forth with little actual reason, with different periods merging together seemingly. I’d compare it to Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, in that it feels like you’re exploring this couple’s memories.

I’m just going off Wikipedia and IMDB, which both say it’s from the UK. I’ve never seen it. I get what you mean about Kane, in that it’s technically framed as flashbacks (and newsreels and such), but I think it’s inaccurate to call that linear.

Post
#1242368
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You realize he was just parodying you when you say you aren’t going to engage with insert poster right?

Yes, this upcoming season is the first time the Doctor will be female. Until the Master regenerated into a female, no Timelord had ever switched genders in the history of the show.

Yeah I understand that but is there any legitimate reason why it shouldn’t be besides that it hasn’t before? I mean if there’s a new doctor all the time why can’t it be female? It’s not like a regular character switching gender.

It seems like the only reason it can’t be is because some people will automatically assume it was done for “PC” reasons, whether that even makes any sense.

Post
#1242311
Topic
Last movie seen
Time

Handman said:

I haven’t seen a bad Audrey Hepburn film. So many of them are kind of similar, but I just love them. Charade, How to Steal a Million, Sabrina, Roman Holiday, Wait Until Dark

The only one I didn’t particularly care for was My Fair Lady, strangely enough, considering it’s much more well known and beloved than most of the ones I just listed. Haven’t seen Breakfast at Tiffany’s. However, I just ordered Two for the Road on Blu-ray, and I expect it to be great as well.

Until this year, the only ones I’d ever seen were My Fair Lady and Always. I didn’t necessarily dislike either (well, Always does kinda suck) but I never felt the urgency to watch more right away. But then this year I watched one (Tiffany’s), and have now seen all but one of the ones you mentioned. Great stuff.

Post
#1242236
Topic
Random Thoughts
Time

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

ChainsawAsh said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

paja said:

I think Escape from the planet of the Apes is underrated.

It’s certainly the best of the sequels. As in the only one that’s watchable. But it is good.

But… Conquest…

Is that the one wear the apes and people are living in peace in the jungle on the edge of NYC until the radicals mount a war? and then at the end the two people decide to worship the Atom bomb?

Absolutely not.