Wait, what? I'm very confused.
The images marked v3 DJ have color tweaks? I guess I misunderstood.
No. I just finished d/l'ing all the fiters and trying g-force's script for the first time. I don't see a difference between my color corrections directly to the DVD video and video that has been through the script.
g-force's tweaks just seem to make a cleaner image and make scanning around much slower.
I think it needs to be stated again Dark_Jedi's screen shots are NOT color corrected. It is g-force's script untouched, and makes no color adjustments at all from the original DVD. (Except a slight hue adjustment... the wrong direction if you ask me.)
My suggested tweaks are attempts to improve saturation (not necessarily hue) (which was already being discussed on another thread) making everyone look sunburned.
I'll be the first to admit, it's a work in progress. Orange skin tones are not really pleasant, but the GOUT transfer is deeply flawed and corrections that SHOULD work well, don't necessarily.
Chewtobacca said:
I hate to say it after all the work you've been doing, but I can't see much difference and I prefer the GOUT.
That was the point with the last tweak. People were generally happy with the skin tones (which are largely red on the GOUT discs, with not much room for improvement).
With those settings faces are largely the same, but other colors are brought up.
This last one take with a grain of salt. The source frame was from Apt Irrelevance, not directly from the DVD so it isn't exactly how it would look:
Oh and adjusting the blue levels made me think about something for the first time: what the heck did they milk to GET blue milk? I didn't see any livestock.
hue(channels="YM", sat=1.25)
hue(channels="B", sat=1.4)
No hue, not even a levels adjustment. Just stronger blue, and slightly stronger yellow and magenta.
Will post more if you guys like what you see.
You'd probably want to skip the hue adjustment as well since that moves most of the skin tones from red towards yellow.
I probably should take a look again, but I've lost motivation. :-)
Something something
levels(3, 1.08, 255, 0, 255)
hue(channels="YM", sat=1.25)
hue(channels="B", sat=1.4)
-ish sort of thing. Haven't tried it though.
The only other answer is to leave the Red levels alone while bringing up everything else. It seems like everyone like it that red.
New script, new shots.
I read the concerns and comments, and took a look again (still didn't test with g-force's script.)
It is apparent that there are really strong primary colors in the film. The reds are true red (once the hue is adjusted +5). Similarly, the blues start peaking at pure blue. So now I adjust the all colors with the hue tweak.
I also knocked the Red back down to 90%. Similarly, I lowered the Green and Cyan so they don't exceed the 75% boxes.
This helps with some of the green issues. To fix the orangey complexions I more conservatively increased yellow only 25% (along with the Magenta).
Blue I still increase strongly because the movie always feels like it needs more (which looking at the Technicolor print you can see they were lost completely in some scenes somewhere in the transfer process.)
Anyway, by reducing some additional colors and being more conservative with others that were causing problems, the reds which felt right originally (even though we know they're wrong), are now not washed out by the desaturation.
hue(channels="RYGBMC", hue=5) #Adjust hue "CCW"
hue(channels="YM", sat=1.25)
hue(channels="B", sat=1.4)
hue(channels="R", sat=0.9)
hue(channels="GC", sat=0.95)
Anyway, to my eye, this is the best looking version so far.
@DJ: Did you disable g-force's Levels() adjustment when you inserted my filters?
I agree my screenshots aren't perfect. I didn't think it ranged a little too far into orange skin tones (from the boosted yellow). Ironically, I think Luke's flight suit should be more orange.
The problem is we don't have full spectrums to work with, so the portions we do have, increased, can look unnatural.
That's of course is assuming all colors were intended to be at or near full saturation. There could also be other peaks I did not take into account without the whole film.
Any green-ness is not from me since I did not change its saturation. It's probably subjective with the red reduced. I think the answer is probably somewhere in between. A smaller reduction in red (which unfortunately does feel more natural even if we know it to be wrong) and a smaller increase in the other colors.
If the over-green persists I would add a "G" to the color reduction line (along with the red).
So probably more like:
levels(3, 1.08, 255, 0, 255) #Note: Changes in gamma can effect
#color saturation.
converttorgb() #required to use Hue filter
hue(channels="RYG", hue=5) #Adjust hue "CCW" for Red, Yellow, Green
hue(channels="YBM", sat=1.30)
hue(channels="R", sat=0.9) # add G if still too much green.
converttoyuy2() #If you are encoding using CCE
Long post, so strap in.
The first and most important thing is that GOUT's colors are crap. While the balance is better than the SE, it just doesn't have as dynamic a range of colors as we really need.
The below screenshots below were taken in VirtualDubMod. Both the GOUT and Technicolor images have been resized and/or cropped. That should have no effect on color. (Technicolor above, GOUT below)
You can see that the problem isn't just saturation, but that the GOUT colors just don't cover enough of the spectrum.
So you can saturate those colors as much as you want, it won't get you a match.
The next problem is that each color has a different peak. The worst offender is red. The next screenshot is from GOUT during the opening space battle. I swear no picture levels have been messed with:
See those boxes?
They identify where a 75% intensity value for the primary (and complementary) colors would fall. For TV viewing, you should never adjust colors past these targets. Some high intensity/highly saturated colors are not valid for a TV signal. They will most likely be clipped and cause distortions. Red is especially problematic. TVs tend to actually add a red cast to a signal. So for TV viewed source, you should try to keep the red a bit low.
Ouch. It's really not uncommon for commercial DVDs to exceed those boxes, but I've never seen a color fall outside of the scope's limit.
So what did I do? Okay, keep in mind a few things.
1) I do not have the full DVD at the moment. Peak values were determined based on a few key scenes.
2) The Levels were adjusted. I stuck with g-force's 1.08 gamma adjustment because it brightens the picture slightly without over doing it. I know of no objective adjustment, and PC levels being different tend to make DVD video look darker than how it would look on a TV. Should it be left alone all together? I'm not sure.
3) I disagree with g-force's black level boost. The black and white levels hit the maximums. g-force said 10, I say 3 is just enough to keep the darkest blacks around the same level after the gamma adjustment. (Unless he intentionally crushed the black level to remove fx matte problems. Anyone know for sure?)
4) I have fair color vision at best, so for all I know the people look like oompa loompas and C3PO is green.
5) I went the opposite direction with the hue than g-force. He went -3 I went +5, and then only for red, yellow and green so the skin tones would be closer to the technicolor print.
6) Red is overdriven and clips, green is almost too strong (but I liked it untouched best), Cyan is just about right.
The script would be:
levels(3, 1.08, 255, 0, 255) #Note: Changes in gamma can effect
#color saturation.
converttorgb() #required to use Hue filter
hue(channels="RYG", hue=5) #Adjust hue "CCW" for Red, Yellow, Green
hue(channels="YBM", sat=1.4) #boost Yellow, Blue, Magenta to 140%
hue(channels="R", sat=0.85) #Tough call. 0.9 looks a bit better,
#but is probably still too high.
converttoyuy2() #If you are encoding using CCE
I'm trying to get a hold of the full DVD to be more specific, but this should be a good starting point.
(Avisynth Hue() filter can be found here: http://www.wilbertdijkhof.com/)
Opinions? Criticisms? Suggestions?
THX says their test signals are unique, though, because they’re equal to the final reference levels set during the individual DVD’s mastering. This supposedly means you can tailor your system’s performance to each specific DVD title that has the Optimode stuff encoded onto it.
Source: http://www.technofile.com/articles/thx_optimode.html
Seems to be true. It's a by disc calibration, not absolute for your system.
I agree you shouldn't use any DVD decoding software to view optimode. Mostly because NTSC black levels are 16-235 (which some software players will output. PC monitors are 0-255. So your black and white levels may be miscalibrated to these levels, or worse, the decoder may use some adjustment/filtering to "improve" playback in a random way.
Forget Optimode, it's not useful for much of anything, and I would certainly never use it for a PC.
Use http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachart, quickgamma or similar calibration software to set the right levels for an RGB display, not software for YV12/NTSC video.
Btw, Blu-Rays are also 16-235 levels, so even though HDTV and BD have more vibrant colors, a BD Optimode would be just as inappropriate.
As far as overlay vs desktop color schemes, you don't need to take that into account if you are making your adjustments in your monitor's controls instead of your PC's software.
Finally, I'm not certain that overlay has separate settings, I know 3D graphics have different gamma corrections versus 2D (desktop). If your software player uses DirectX for rendering, than you might be effected by that distinction.
Edit: That all being said, it's why I used the method that I do for making adjustments to video. They are based on absolute numbers and/or comparison to other sources, not my eye which may be just as inaccurate as my monitor's calibrations.
IIRC, the problem with DVD calibrations such as the THX Optimode is the method involved.
The Optimode calibration video/audio is intended to go through the same processing as the movie itself. As a result the Optimode for a given DVD is so you can calibrate your home theater so it is accurate for that DVD only. It is not an absolute calibration for accuracy.
(At least this is what I remember reading way back when. I hope they've changed that.)
dark_jedi said:
Is there any alternate sites to show how to do basic monitor calibration? because I have ran into this also, what might look good on my PC does not look so hot on my HDTV and vice versa.
If your monitor is listed, you might be able to find settings you can use on this site: http://www.digitalversus.com/colour-calibration-profiles-your-monitor-article-424.html
If they have a review, they have detailed info. At the time I bought my monitor, it wasn't listed there so I calibrated it myself using RadLinker (to set the gammas at boot time), Catalyst Control Center (to set colors after CCC has loaded), QuickGamma (as reference for finding the settings I wanted, not for setting anything) and these websites:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/37868163/Bryce-Alive-Quick-Guide-to-Monitor-Calibration (This is an archive of a dead site.)
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachart
QuickGamma is a good tool to do it all (since CCC and Radlinker are ATI only (and fight each other)): http://www.quickgamma.de/indexen.html
Wow, not a single response to my suggested method. If there is interested I can pick up Ep IV and post some proof of concept snaps. (I do not currently have the disc.)
Also... in the past I have used that method with stills (like the Technocolor screenshots) in VDub using Color Tools, so I actually have a hard comparison for the vectorscope and waveform monitor.
It works really well because then you aren't just trying to eyeball things, you have actual peeks and levels you are comparing.
If the right balance can be found, I say yes please.
While I occasionally use the Tweak() filter, it's only good if you need to make very general changes.
For more detailed work, I am fond of Wilbert Dijkhof's port of Donald Graft's vdub filter, "Hue": http://www.wilbertdijkhof.com/
The downside is you MUST work in RGB colorspace, your benefit is that you can adjust hue/saturation/intensity separately or together for each RYGCBM color.
You can even call multiple instances to give a separate hue shift and/or saturation for each color of 6 colors (or just leave Red out while you boost the rest).
My color correction process (in general, not just for SW):
1) Load my script without color correction into VDubMod.
2) Adjust levels and then the colors IN VDUB as outlined in Doom9's still useful Analog Capture Guide in sections 7.1.9 through 7.1.9.2. (Using multiple instances of the Hue/Sat/Intensity filter as needed.)
http://www.doom9.org/capture/postprocessing_vdub.html
-> The reason for doing this in VDub is it gives you access to a wave form monitor and vectorscope. That way you can actually see if you are pushing things too far (or not far enough).
3) Next, write down how you set your VDub filters (and in what order) and add results to the avisynth script.
Levels() is the same as VDub's Levels filter. Input levels, gamma and output levels plug right in with the same numbers.
Hue() is a port of the VDub filter, so again, the numbers are exactly the same.
This method is really useful and worth trying when you have one color that just won't behave when you are trying to adjust things.
Taolar said:
Back on subject: Taolar, although I love the name you've been using, perhaps a name change on the next version would be a good idea.
I'll definitely come up with something different. That's what I get for taking so long to finish it. Hey, what do you think about just using a Kryptonian symbol and letting people call it The Edit Previously Known as Son of Jorel? ;)
XD
dark_jedi said:
WOW Boon is gone? wonder if I could log in now or if I am still banned LOL, I friggin HATED that site for a long time and some of the admins there, wonder if they are gone now to,hell maybe the site is better now, who knows.
+1. Boon was a major issue.
Unfortunately I scuttled my account (don't ask), it has probably been deleted by now anyway.
I just might have to check things out again.
Back on subject: Taolar, although I love the name you've been using, perhaps a name change on the next version would be a good idea.
And FE has a reputation for not caring about individual editor's works. I'm surprised he bothered to say anything. He must be new to FE.
While this is still available on FE's website, I've been considering putting a torrent up on Cinematik for those that prefer that method.
Assuming PhilFrog has no objections, is there interest in a torrent rather than RapidShare? Seems like the right time of year for this.
Doing further research, yes, the audio track remix should work. I'll post a clip in the next few days.
The process will involve DPL2 decoding the 2.0 participation track. The audience, which is only in the rear channels, would then be boosted and mixed into the rear channels of the 5.1 track. It should sound great when finished.
Also, it turns out the BluRay Vintage Callback subtitles are specifically a transcription of the 1983 Say It/Audience Participation Album. That's interesting.
I'd still like to get my hands on those subs, but have not been able to find them.
Finally, can anyone confirm or deny my current suspicion that the DVD's audience participation track IS the 1983 CD synced to the movie?
When I watched I actually turned to the person I was watching it with and asked if Sully was laying in his avatar pod with an air mask on or something.
Besides, I think the scene kind of blows. The meaning of it was lost on me. It just made the N'avi seem more backward (which frankly a LOT of the Collector's Edition footage does).
I finally watched the 3 hour cut from the new Collector's Edition. Some nice new plot lines (frankly I liked some of the delete footage stuff better (like the romance subplot and the other avatars during the epic battle)), but also this is more bloat along with it.
Any chance on a v2 using the extendeder cut? The expanded Earth opening works very well. The original opening is a bit jarring in its pace considering how slow the rest of the film moves.
Some of the expanded stuff on the school is okay, but the Lorax book? Sigh.
I think I finally realized what bothers me about Avatar the most. It's sci-fi light. It's the far future, but people still read printed books, play golf with plain old clubs and speak just like us while spewing the same tropes (especially the military).
While this probably made it more accessible to the less scifi inclined, it also makes it seem like crap to real geeks.
Anyway, so I'm just putting it out there, a request for an expanded source revision.
Just a little FYI for those looking to snow D_J in with DVD9s.
SuperMediaStore is having a 72 hour sale. 30 pack for $36.99 and free shipping.
Also if you spend $100 on the order you'll get another $10 off with the coupon: Holiday10
Hope that wasn't too off topic for you all. If it's a problem, let me know and I'll remove this post.
Anyway, v1.1 has been out for awhile, but I've only had one request for it so far.
v1.1 has the same audio/video as the previous release.
What is new.
Disc 1:
The movie can be resumed if you exit to the menu (previously it would restart from the beginning again).
New English subtitles (tough dang job), selectable from the main menu.
Fan warning has been shortened
Non functional buttons have been removed from the scene selection menu.
Disc 2:
Aspect ratio of Splash Mountain ride-through extra has been corrected to 16x9.
Fan Edit warning again shortened.
Root button problem with Splash Mountain extra corrected.
Button routing within menus are now more intuitive.
--
As far as a v2 is concerned, I'm letting that idea go for now. I think this pretty much wraps up the set. I don't think there are any more plans for a Disc 3. ( If anyone wants to design cover art, that would be great.)