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Dek Rollins

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6-Apr-2015
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18-Nov-2019
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3,033

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Post
#1303894
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

TylerDurden389 said:

Not sure if this contributes to the conversation but I’m gonna throw it to the air. I still have the terminator on vhs (recorded to dvd and then digital) and I noticed in the fullscreen version that the aspect ratio has a lot more headroom. When the “T” and “R” in “Terminator” cross at the beginning of the opening credits, you can actually see the top of the letters slide across each other, and THAT’S why you hear that metal scrapping noise. Not sure if the entire presentation has that extra headroom though, as it might just be only that part.

I’ve been made aware of the origin of the sound effect before, and I find it interesting that they framed it to be cut off like that. I would assume that the whole film is open matte, though it’s definitely possible that some of the optical effects shots were hardmatted. I actually have an old HBO Video VHS that I watched once, but I don’t remember what the framing looked like.

Post
#1303892
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

RU.08 said:

Dek Rollins said:

By the way, when you mentioned the credits being original, what did they actually look like? was there no Donna Smith credit at all, or did it scroll up at the beginning of the credits during the fade-out like in the German DVD print?

Yes the credits started scrolling up over the picture like that before it faded out completely. I meant there was no static credit, it was probably the first credit scrolling up as seen in your screenshot.

Thanks for the info. I might take a crack at recreating the theatrical credit placement, but I might be too lazy. 😛

The only thing that looks noticeably off in the BD is the text at the start of the film (the future war text and the credits) - that’s all much softer on 35mm.

That’s to be expected.

Post
#1303781
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

RU.08 said:

Dek Rollins said:

The colors are definitely washed out, but the general color biases are what I’m referring to. I think that skin tones are too frequently pinkish, and some scenes seem very dark, but most of the scenes I’ve compared look somewhat similar to the Blu-ray, and match your description of the print you saw pretty well.

The skin tones, like most 35mm on the era, are frequently yellowish in the daylight scenes.

That’s what I’ve gleamed from 35mm photos in the past.

I posted in the fanres thread that I think it seems to be the most accurate (I meant generally, though I didn’t really specify what I thought was accurate about it in that post), and that it matches the dozens of 35mm frames posted online rather closely, so I would think that the biases introduced by the telecine were subtle. With the washed out contrast it wouldn’t be projection accurate of course, but a subtle regrade of the BD on a shot by shot basis to try and match the color consistency of the DVD seems like a worthy effort to me.

The bias introduced by the telecine is anything but “subtle”. I’m very sorry to disagree.

The bias introduced by the telecine most likely includes the strong red push in the brights, but that’s also one of the idiosyncrasies I mentioned it having. Besides that and the pinkish skin tones, many scenes that I’ve directly compared look remarkably similar to the Blu-ray, and it is frequently also similar to 35mm frames that we have images of.

The only part of the film that I think is entirely wrong is the first half of the second-to-last reel. It’s incredibly green for some reason when the immediate previous scenes in the same location were much more natural looking, so I think that must have been an error of some sort. It could’ve even been a lab mistake on the print they used for the transfer even.

I think I’m going to try doing that with my updated regrade, and maybe those of us who are not quite satisfied with the BD will be happy with an alternative that isn’t far off from it. I’m curious, for everyone who has my regrade and enjoys it over the BD, would you guys be interested in something that stays closer to the BD and just makes subtle shot to shot changes?

I think this film is well worth doing a scan from a print, you’ll see the colours on the BD are faithful but there’s some subtle differences here and there. I mean no disrespect, but re-grading is a fool’s errand unless you’ve seen it projected yourself.

No disrespect taken. I don’t disagree that my lack of personal firsthand experience seeing a projection makes any of my attempts more speculative, but I do have sources for my interpretation of what a projection looks like. You’re description of the print you saw is comparable the 35mm frames we have, with those being good reference material IMO, along with most of the German transfer, taking into account that there is sometimes more green than needs to be there.

I agree that a print scan would be great. I would much rather watch that than even a new regrade of the Blu-ray.
Really, I’d love to see Arrow do a release of this as well.

By the way, when you mentioned the credits being original, what did they actually look like? was there no Donna Smith credit at all, or did it scroll up at the beginning of the credits during the fade-out like in the German DVD print?

Anyway, I would love to here feedback from yourself and anyone else that has seen it projected once I finish my new regrade, and maybe that will help determine the accuracy of what I’m able to cook up.

Post
#1303689
Topic
StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread
Time

doubleofive said:

https://www.starwars.com/news/rebel-starfighters-owners-workshop-manual

These theatrical frames are much closer to Legacy’s than any other source, just slightly different coloring.

I can’t even see a color difference between this and the legacy preview. It looks Identical to my eyes.

This will probably build our hope to be inevitably smashed when nothing ever gets announced. 😛

Post
#1303594
Topic
Dirty Harry Color Regrade and New 5.1 remix project
Time

kchrules said:

https://vimeo.com/371054639/5a71498441
Here is a new crack at it. I used the aforementioned FS DVD as the color source. It’s the same 2:20 as before. The big video on the top half is the re-grade/re-color, the video on the bottom left is the untouched blu ray, and bottom right is the FS DVD (which I tried to emulate)

This grade looks really good and the blue color of the pool is a lot better, though I think the cyans have been pushed too dark in some places. While what you have there looks a lot better than the Blu-ray, I think you’ve replicated the DVD a bit too closely perhaps. The blue tones should maybe be kept lighter and a bit less magenta. The sky in some shots looks almost purple in the DVD, and I’m not sure if that necessarily should be replicated verbatim.

Also, in the first shot of the scope cross-hairs in front of the woman, the furniture she walks by that looks teal in the Blu-ray and and is blue in the DVD still looks teal in your grade. I’m curious why that would be.

And are some of the highlights blown out? I can’t really tell, but many shots have highlights that seem oddly brighter than both the Blu-ray and the DVD, like the buildings in the slow zoom-out shot. Some areas on the buildings just look white where they appear to have some color in the other sources.

Overall this looks great, and I can’t wait to see any progress you make on it.

EDIT: By the way, could you post some screencaps of the widescreen side of the DVD for comparison?

Post
#1303318
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

Reese said:

Dek Rollins said:

RU.08 said:

Anyway, would you say the projection was accurate to the old German DVD, the one that was transferred from a print?

No. The colours in that version are washed out, and it was not transferred digitally it was very obviously done by telecine which never produces a projection-accurate result regardless of whether you’re using a release print, a TV print, or whatever. I do not think it was even transferred for DVD - it looks like they used a broadcast tape literally transferred in the 1980’s for that release. It’s a full-screen transfer, outside of the US no one did full-screen transfers for DVD, even in 1997. And when they did the first digital restoration, and broadcast it, it was in widescreen.

The colors are definitely washed out, but the general color biases are what I’m referring to. I think that skin tones are too frequently pinkish, and some scenes seem very dark, but most of the scenes I’ve compared look somewhat similar to the Blu-ray, and match your description of the print you saw pretty well.

I posted in the fanres thread that I think it seems to be the most accurate (I meant generally, though I didn’t really specify what I thought was accurate about it in that post), and that it matches the dozens of 35mm frames posted online rather closely, so I would think that the biases introduced by the telecine were subtle. With the washed out contrast it wouldn’t be projection accurate of course, but a subtle regrade of the BD on a shot by shot basis to try and match the color consistency of the DVD seems like a worthy effort to me.

I think I’m going to try doing that with my updated regrade, and maybe those of us who are not quite satisfied with the BD will be happy with an alternative that isn’t far off from it. I’m curious, for everyone who has my regrade and enjoys it over the BD, would you guys be interested in something that stays closer to the BD and just makes subtle shot to shot changes?

Possibly. Depends on the final look I suppose.
I am curious though, in case you or someone else knows, is there a version which incorporates deleted scenes?

I think Stamper made an extended version on fanres.

Post
#1303220
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

RU.08 said:

Anyway, would you say the projection was accurate to the old German DVD, the one that was transferred from a print?

No. The colours in that version are washed out, and it was not transferred digitally it was very obviously done by telecine which never produces a projection-accurate result regardless of whether you’re using a release print, a TV print, or whatever. I do not think it was even transferred for DVD - it looks like they used a broadcast tape literally transferred in the 1980’s for that release. It’s a full-screen transfer, outside of the US no one did full-screen transfers for DVD, even in 1997. And when they did the first digital restoration, and broadcast it, it was in widescreen.

The colors are definitely washed out, but the general color biases are what I’m referring to. I think that skin tones are too frequently pinkish, and some scenes seem very dark, but most of the scenes I’ve compared look somewhat similar to the Blu-ray, and match your description of the print you saw pretty well.

I posted in the fanres thread that I think it seems to be the most accurate (I meant generally, though I didn’t really specify what I thought was accurate about it in that post), and that it matches the dozens of 35mm frames posted online rather closely, so I would think that the biases introduced by the telecine were subtle. With the washed out contrast it wouldn’t be projection accurate of course, but a subtle regrade of the BD on a shot by shot basis to try and match the color consistency of the DVD seems like a worthy effort to me.

I think I’m going to try doing that with my updated regrade, and maybe those of us who are not quite satisfied with the BD will be happy with an alternative that isn’t far off from it. I’m curious, for everyone who has my regrade and enjoys it over the BD, would you guys be interested in something that stays closer to the BD and just makes subtle shot to shot changes?

Post
#1303137
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

RU.08 said:

The big issue I have with what you say about the Blu-ray’s accuracy is that there is evidence that the Blu-ray’s color biases in some scenes are not always consistent with the original prints.

None of those scans look anything like projection. Just taking the second one as an example - Reece was nowhere near that dark, he was clearly visible in that scene.

I mentioned that the second frame was scanned too dark, but the others clearly weren’t since their brightness isn’t too far off from the Blu-ray.

Anyway, would you say the projection was accurate to the old German DVD, the one that was transferred from a print? That transfer has a lot more green and teal than most others besides the Blu-ray.

Given your experience watching the film, that DVD release, and the general accuracy of the Blu-ray to the projection you saw, with those frame scans having different colors present, there might have actually been some fluctuation from print to print regarding the blues/cyans/teals and such. It’s hard to say until we get at least one print in somebodies hands to scan the whole film.

Post
#1303130
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

I’m aware that my regrade is not totally accurate, which is why I’m actually working on a new regrade from scratch that will hopefully be more in-depth than my previous single LUT efforts.

But, to say the Blu-ray is accurate is somewhat incorrect IMO. Just to clarify, the print you saw was an original one and not a 2001 re-issue? If what you saw lined up with kaosjm’s description and it had the mono I would assume it was original, but I’d rather be certain.

The big issue I have with what you say about the Blu-ray’s accuracy is that there is evidence that the Blu-ray’s color biases in some scenes are not always consistent with the original prints. The Blu-ray is more accurate than I used to think it is, and my regrade is certainly less accurate in many instances, but the Blu-ray still has some idiosyncrasies.

35mm Frames

The latter two frames in particular are very different.

http://www.framecompare.com/screenshotcomparison/Y6LNNN8X
http://www.framecompare.com/screenshotcomparison/Y67NNN8X
http://www.framecompare.com/screenshotcomparison/DW6ZGNNX

Of course the Technoir frame was scanned too dark, but a better picture was taken later.

I find it hard to believe that the print you saw had a yellow/green push in the highlights like the Blu-ray does, but I haven’t had the opportunity to see a print in person, so I can’t say anything from experience.

Also, the shot of Sarah driving in the tunnel you posted is still green in my regrade, though the shot is darker. The walls in the whole scene are green, though the road is cyan or blue in many shots in my regrade.

Anyway, I’m glad you weighed in here. By the way, what did you think of my old regrade?

That was the latest update I had made when kaosjm posted about the print he saw and said that I was spot on for most of the film. He did note that the beginning and future war stuff was sometimes very cyan and teal, which I acknowledged, but I never ended up implementing any changes like that because until now I was set on doing a single global adjustment for the majority of the movie. That’s why the shots in those comparisons have inaccuracies, too.

Post
#1297805
Topic
The Phantom Menace - Theatrical version scanned in 4K
Time

MonkeyLizard10 said:

I think that whole Red Letter Media nonsense about TPM is what really got it going. Before then you could go to SW forums and reasonably talk about TPM or the prequels, after… forget it. And all you see is people parroting RLM review quips and quotes, or if you say you like a prequel, they respond by saying, nope, you are wrong and then give a link to one of the RLM videos. (But those RLM videos, I mean there is plenty of stuff objectively incorrect in them, a bit ironic since he is laughing at what a stupid fool Lucas is. Although some of the farther post TPM RLM videos, I almost feel like maybe he is actually not even being so serious about anything he says but just mocking the RLM review lovers.)

(and yes, sure some hated TPM (and even many who loved it did still complain about some of the baby dialogue and scuh given to Gungan officials and he did get a bit more commercial in a few things, I wasn’t so crazy about some of that stuff myself, but in the end, the baby dialogue stuff is jsut a few minutes out of more than 120) and even AOTC and even even ROTS before any of that, but the numbers just seemed to explode after that video, again SW message boards went from somewhat reasonable to almsot total hate fests, couldn’t dare mention anything other than 4-6 after that video)

I’d like to hear what’s objectively incorrect in the Plinkett videos, as I don’t really remember anything that seems to be factually incorrect in them. Anyway, regarding the affect those videos had on popular view of the films. The big thing that I see people say about them is that a lot of things people didn’t like about the movies was hard to fully explain, and that the reviews did a great job of putting those complaints into words.

If you don’t know, the original Plinkett review (Star Trek Generations) was something he did to put out his feelings on why he hated the movie so much in words, and he had some fun by doing an impression of his friends Plinkett character. He then did the same thing with the other Star Trek TNG films, and eventually started doing the Star Wars prequels for the same reason. Obviously his TPM review became a popular hit and the rest is history. I don’t understand the vitriol PT fans have for those videos, because he wasn’t trying to pull one over on the whole world. He explained in great detail the objective flaws in the films, both visible on screen and in the creation of them. Was he perfect? No. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Some of his arguments in various reviews of his are skewed by either misinterpretation or some other form of human error. That doesn’t devalue the abundance of reasonable and perfectly sound arguments he makes for his assertion that they aren’t well made movies.

A lot of the stuff people bash about the prequels for being dumb, actually has decent reasoning behind it.

This is true for a lot of things, but plenty have poor reasoning too.

Even the way Anakin and Padme were awkward in AOTC make sense, I mean he wasn’t some swashbuckling Han or worldly Lando, he was a monk! isolated at an early age and she became a leader at like 14 and then was off to the Senate. So hardly surprising they talk to each other in less smooth ways than Han or Lando. Also some of the wya they acted and talked was also modeled off very early US cinema romance. DOn’t forget the characters were in another galaxy, in anotehr time, not today.

Here is the problem with this. We as the audience are supposed to feel that these too people are in love, at some point in the story, but they never fall in love on screen. They roll around in a field and have dinner and boom, love, apparently.

I don’t want to turn this thread into a debate-fest on whether or not people should be allowed to hate the PT, though maybe that’s already accomplished. 😛

Post
#1297659
Topic
The Phantom Menace - Theatrical version scanned in 4K
Time

MonkeyLizard10 said:

Slavicuss said:

MonkeyLizard10 said:

cool project

I saw this in 35mm as well as on two different digital projectors back in '99, including what might have been the first commercial digital projection of any film in the world.

Contrary to all the net rage, theaters were packed and people generally seemed pretty happy and were NOT all laughing, raging, etc. decent bit of clapping at the end at many showings.

And for AOTC, people were racing out of the earlier showings, smiling, giving thumbs up to people still on line, saying it was awesome, audiences erupted into cheers at the end. Again, contrary to all the hate you hear coming form the net crowd.

Probably still high from the movie they just saw. After a few days of reflection (and repeat viewings) the cracks start to appear, not long after, they’re ripping the film’s a new a-hole (deservedly so).

nah, more just like the sort of sneering hipster crowd took over forums and spread hate and then it became cool to hate everything

A brother of mine, who was around 10 at the time, thought AOTC sucked when it came out. Of course, over the course of the decade the films grew a more negative reputation, but those reputations started at the beginning. There were a lot of people who loved the prequels when they came out, but anyone pretending that there wasn’t any hate until it was “cool” is fooling themselves.

There are many people, even those who have been members of this board over the past fifteen years, who consider the prequels to be some sort of contraband that’s not allowed in their homes. Nobody can convince me that these people were peer-pressured into hating these movies so much.

There are also people like me. I enjoyed TPM and AOTC a lot when I was younger, hated ROTS, and then I came to a realization over time that even the first two aren’t very well made films, and many of their problems ruin some of the mystique of the OT. I still enjoy some aspects of the first two prequels, as they do hold some good ideas and good filmmaking, and my nostalgia for them makes them fun to revisit. I wasn’t brainwashed by internet forums, I just built a greater understanding of what I was seeing on the screen for myself. That’s enough ranting though. I don’t disbelieve that the general response in your area at least was positive.

I’m actually very excited for this project since the P&S VHS is what I used to watch TPM on.

Post
#1295038
Topic
UPDATES: TV Version & Workprint DVD Trading; Superman, Halloween, Star Wars, Star Trek, ect.
Time

I’m not sure I understand. You agree that these should be available on the internet, but you’re only offering them for trade? That’s completely contradictory. Offering things exclusively via trade has almost always been a ridiculous practice. Trading bootlegs is no more legal than file distribution.

I’m sorry you had to pay money to get these, but now you are in a position to make it a lot easier for everyone else. There’s no reason you can’t just upload them somewhere.

Post
#1290078
Topic
Jurassic Park theatrical regrade
Time

Yeah, it shouldn’t be too overwhelming. It’s over a year since I finished updating my Terminator project and from time to time I still get PMs here and there, haha. So be a generous host and keep on it till you feel like it. As long as you don’t feel the need to respond to every request immediately at the expense of your sanity, you’ll be fine. 😃