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Collipso

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25-Oct-2017
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19-Oct-2018
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Post
#1144458
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

The best Spider-man movie to date features Peter losing his powers and giving up on being Spidey entirely. The (debatably) best Superman movie also features him losing his powers. I don’t see your point.

Yes, and he discovers he makes a mistake and get’s his powers back. That’s not the same as permanently altering a character.

Isn’t that what Luke does though? Even though he failed, he decides to become the legend one last time (and that may be my favorite scene in movie history). So he, in a way, got his power back, meaning the change wasn’t permanent.

Post
#1144382
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

  1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

  2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

  3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

  4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

  5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how these powers were first introduced to the audience, starting in 1977.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

I’m pretty sure he reads her mind, doesn’t he? He even talks about dealing with Skywalker after they kill the rebels. Or are you talking about how he should have read her mind while she was still on the island?

Post
#1144306
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

adywan said:

Ryan said:

The OT doesn’t establish that Vader can “read minds”. It’s actually the opposite with Vader having to resort to torture to find out information others have.

So, my theory of what’s going on in the OT is supported by what we see in the OT movies.

It was established that Vader could read minds in ANH. The Mind probe is a Jedi ability to go through peoples minds in order to get useful information. That’s pretty much reading someone’s mind right there. Vader even said in ANH that “Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable” . And he wasn’t talking about the interrogator droid either. that ability was established in the OT. Just because he didn’t just read everyones mind doesn’t mean to say he couldn’t do it. We have seen Jedi have abilities then just don’t use them when they really could do with using them ( jedi speed run, super jump, mind control etc etc) .

Yes but some of the abilities you cited first appeared in the prequels and were criticized for creating “plot holes” in the OT where there wasn’t any, just like it’s being done now. And isn’t ‘probe’ a word for robot?

Post
#1144305
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

About the RotJ “Vader read Luke’s mind” thing, I think that Luke had his mind Jedi Bluetooth on, and he was desperately trying to turn it off so that Vader wouldn’t access what he was making available. He failed though, he couldn’t hide his feelings/turn Jedi mind Bluetooth off, so Vader just kept teasing him until he gave in to the dark side and almost turned to the dark side. That’s always been my interpretation of the scene, ever since I was like 7.

Post
#1144294
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

This film is really a number of great scenes held together by a terrible plot filled with story contrivances.

This is actually a pretty accurate description; I still love it though.

Hey, I enjoyed it also, and it has some great stuff. I would describe it as a pretty good movie, but only a below average Star Wars film, because of the outlined problems, which mostly relate to how it fits in the saga as a whole.

As a movie I think it has major problems, such as a “ticking clock” that sacrificed moments that would otherwise be extremely important for character development. The flow of scenes in the first act didn’t feel right, and the pace (because of subplots) and tone (because of the excessive jokes) of the movie both felt off. Just my opinion though.

Post
#1144190
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Possessed said:

Saw it today. To me it was almost overwhelming how good it was. My only complaint is the excessive humor. Most of the humor was good, but I just think for the sake of a consistent tone a few bits of it could be trimmed while the best stayed and the film would benefit.

Also I thought yoda looked terrible, not nobody else seems to mention that so maybe it’s just me.

I love the risks it took. I saw almost nothing that happened in this movie coming until it was moments away. (The music would start to give what was about to happen away and I would just be like "no… Surely they aren’t about to… Wwoah!) even accidentally the day before going I found out Luke was gonna die and even that didn’t happen how I expected.

I will echo others that there are some low points . Such as the casino. But the highs are just so high it almost doesn’t matter. The throne room scenes and snokes death were amazing. Some moments in this movie gave me goosebumps. I liked tfa, but this totally blew it out of the water.

8/10. (As much as I enjoyed 80% of it the excessive humor still can’t just be ignored. But this should be super easy to fan edit into a 9/10 with just a few trims). All it really needed to get a 9/10 was maybe more editing.

Actually a lot of people complained about Yoda, mostly about the first few seconds he was on screen.

Post
#1144183
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Rhindle said:

Ironically, I think the prequels can be greatly improved with fan edits, but I don’t think there’s any way to fan-edit out the objectionable stuff in this one to make it better.

Really? I feel like The Force Awakens is hard to edit in a way that would please those who didn’t like it at first. If you trim down the fat in The Last Jedi however, I’m pretty sure most people that didn’t like it would like it. The Prequel Trilogy is a lost cause if you don’t like it.

Post
#1144180
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

They’ve been very hush hush about him in the new canon (if I’m not mistaken, his brief appearance in Battlefront II might be his only out of film appearance). But I don’t see the issue. He was clearly Snoke’s right hand guy like Vader was to the Emperor, and he could pretty much kill anyone who stands in his way (as is demonstrated with Hux).

Darth Vader eradicated an entire organization of trained force users. In his previous life, he was a war hero. Darth Vader had clout to lead the Galactic Empire should he chose to. What has Kyle Ren accomplished? I’m not saying he hasn’t proven himself worthy of the position he now holds in some off-screen way, but they’ve done nothing on screen to give him the position other than kill Snoke to impress a girl.

Honestly Kylo Ren has also eradicated an entire organization that was being led by a legend.

Post
#1144004
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

After a second viewing, my problems with the movies are as follows:

To quote DrDre:
"Rey’s fast progression from junk dealer to Jedi is not a matter of originality, but consistency. There can’t be more than a few days to a few weeks between the start of TFA and the ending of TLJ. As a matter of fact TLJ takes place over a matter of hours, considering the whole out of fuel plot. In that time Rey is given a highly condensed version of Luke’s arc over two films, starting on a backwater planet to learn the ways of the Force, and ending up in the big bad’s throne room, and finally as the last Jedi. The problem here of course is, that she hardly recieves any training, and ultimately isn’t really tested or suffers any serious setbacks. She crawls through a river of **** and comes out clean at the end, apparently greater and wiser than Luke Skywalker himself, making the old Jedi Master redundant to the point, that he can die at peace mirroring Yoda’s death in ROTJ.

While Snoke’s death was shocking, and overall reasonably well executed, he’s reduced to a plot device, because his character hasn’t been properly set up, or his history and motivations explained. His function seems merely to prop up Kylo Ren, who after being deflated at the end of TFA, now is reinvented as the big bad of the ST, but without the necessary development and character growth. This criticism again is not a matter of originality, but story and character development.

The criticism against the representation of Luke Skywalker is also one of consistency, particulary the idea that Luke would contemplate the murder of his nephew. This 180 degree turn in his character is severely underdeveloped, and only explained in a single scene in which he reads his nephew’s mind realizing Snoke had already won Ben’s heart. This also comes back to the complete lack of developement of Snoke, and the history between Snoke and Kylo. We’re now supposed to believe, that Luke who refused to kill his father and accept he was lost to the dark side, knowing all the terrible things his father had done under the guise of Darth Vader, now gives up on his young nephew based on a vision of the future, a future he knows to allways be in motion. This scene might have worked, if we had learned a bit more about Luke’s psychological state post-ROTJ. He could have told Rey, that his father’s death, and learning about the true magnitude of Vader’s crimes had left him emotionally scarred, and he grew obsessed with preventing the birth of another Darth Vader. He’d found the strength to forgive his father, but the price of his father’s redemption had been too great for the galaxy. If the whole Jedi order couldn’t prevent his father’s turn, how could he by himself create a new and stable Jedi order? So, against Yoda’s council, for years he had refused to train a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, until young Ben was born, and against his better judgement decided to mentor Ben and a few other students. He wasn’t ready to be a teacher, and young Ben sensed Luke’s trepidation, blaming himself. Snoke ceased the opportunity to corrupt the insecure and impressionable Ben, leading to the scene in the film."

The flow of scenes in the first act felt weird because of the multiple plots going on at the same time. IMO they should have focused on one of them for more time than they did, without just going back and forth, killing the pace and tone of the movie. A restructure of the first act and half of the second would improve the movie immensely.

The excessive jokes, like in The Force Awakens were just not funny and distracting to me. I love jokes in movies, and I loved them in this movie when they worked, like most of the funny stuff with Luke. However, the amount of jokes every two scenes made the tone of the movie inconsistent, and that’s just bad. The first scene is a clear example of that, with Poe just toying with General Stupid, and 2 minutes after that Paige (Rose’s sister) sacrifices herself. So because of things like that, the tone throughout the movie was all over the place. I’m not even going to talk about BB-8 in this movie because that was just ridiculous. I didn’t laugh at one scene with him, and man o man were they bad. This also include Maz’s scene.

The way General Hux went from an ok character to the stupidest person in the galaxy. I think it speaks for itself: the character went to comic relief, just like Snoke went to plot device, how R2 was plot device in TFA, etc.

Canto Bight in general. I’m not going to beat a dead horse here; like darthrush said in the TLJ FanEdit thread, everything in between the moment they leave prison to when they’re on the ship felt awful, boring, pace killing and out of place.

I felt like it was a pretty weak plot upon first viewing. Now, after watching the movie a second time, I thought it was much better than what I originally thought, but still far from a good one. I don’t know how to justify this, I just didn’t really like it.

Finally, I think Adam Driver did a much better job this time than in The Force Awakens. I felt like Daisy Ridley was better in TFA, just like John Boyega. Loved Oscar Isaac. Loved Andy Serkis as Snoke, Laura Dern as Holdo and Benicio Del Toro as DJ. Wasn’t a fan of Kelly Marie Tran as Rose. And man, I truly hope Hamill gets an Academy Award nomination for this one. He literally stole the show.

I personally felt like there were some moments where the dialogue was pretty bad, with the delivery just as bad, particularly by Ridley and Boyega.

And that’s it, I guess.

About the Luke stuff: even though I agree with pretty much everything DrDre said about how it was extremely out of character for Luke to do basically everything that he did, I think the way they executed and most importantly the way that Hamill acted it sold the character to me and made me love it. Because of my complaints about the jokes, I must add that even though Luke was never a Joker in the OT, it honestly made sense for the Luke we got to be funny.

If Rey wasn’t as unbelievable, I would love the sequel trilogy, and I’d have loved this movie despite the rest of its flaws. I loved the Kylo/Rey/Luke/Leia stuff, and I loved Poe. I loved how there was no lightsaber fight and how it breaks with the rest of the saga, but I think it went a bit too far with including flashbacks. Consistency, y’know.

Overall, after second viewing, I’d give it a 7.5/10, with 3/10 and 10/10 moments.

Post
#1143585
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Collipso said:

If Luke went to the island to die why was there a map?

Maybe they suspected that Luke was looking for the First Jedi Temple, and the Church of the Force was the first group that actually figured out where that temple might be.

Luke need not be involved in the map’s creation.

I thought that the island was a super hidden place in an unknown region, since not even Han Solo, the guy that’s been flying around the entire galaxy for 60 years, knows any of the nearby system/planets.
But your explanation is good enough for me.