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I think I went a bit too far saying 20 years would be the only acceptable time jump, but I think that 5-10 would be ideal.
But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.
Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.
I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.
I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.
The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.
It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.
How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.
30 million deaths on the Eastern Front say otherwise mate - our Allies in the East fought and attacked the Axis Powers throughout that period of time. And that’s not taking into account aerial raids, naval engagements, and guerrilla warfare on Axis infrastructure and selected targets by the Western Allies during that period.
Who knows where Episode IX will take us - though it wouldn’t be unreasonable to see Resistance adopt a guerrilla warfare style of fighting / attacking the FO (especially the FO hierarchy) if there are no additional Allies to further/bolster their cause.
I’d enjoy watching that. I think it’d be pretty cool if they made a montage showing several attacks Age of Ultron or Captain America: The First Avenger style.
But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.
Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.
I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.
I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.
Much like the Lucas with the OT, apparently the writers of the ST are making things up as they go. But since these are different people, I’m getting the feeling that the ST is a little bit directionless, more so than the OT, or the PT for that matter. (Even though the PT shouldn’t count - it was all Lucas and yeah)
I really hope we don’t get another “Leia! Leia’s my sister!” Moment.
https://youtu.be/m6bAIu7mXjI This video gets the point across pretty well. Although I do disagree with him in several points.
It’s out guys!
Edit: WOW! The trailers are always so amazing!! I just wish rebels was as serious and interesting as the trailers make it look like. But man AM I EXCITED! Count me in!
Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:
- The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
- Luke went there for a reason.
Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:
“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”
So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.
I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.
I left TFA’s midnight screening with my brother and I remember we had the same exact argument (he was profoundly upset with TLJ and loved TFA). He was talking about how Luke had gone searching for the Jedi temple to learn,and how amazing that was and how he was being patient and amazing.
I said that I don’t think Luke would ever flee, and that I didn’t like how TFA treated his character. I do realize it’s a bit unfair to say that because he had 0 lines in the movie, but the idea that he simply fled and his friend died and the Republic died and all he did was… nothing didn’t resonate well with me.
In my opinion, what Mrebo wrote in the script rewrite section would’ve been perfect.
I guess I really didn’t like TFA’s setups and world building and I’m faulting TLJ for not answering questions that TFA should’ve answered in itself, so I guess I’m not being fair.
“How did the FO get almost limitless resources?” “Wtf is Snoke?” Well that’s more for TFA than for TLJ. TLJ did explain Kylo’s story, for example, even though I didn’t like the part Luke played in it.
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.
I’m still not sure about most aspects of the movie though, but I tend to have somewhat negative feelings towards it. Both sides of all arguments have very good points though, which makes it very hard for me to make up my mind.
Double post.
I was going to watch Jessica Jones S1, but never really ended up doing it. I guess I will have to now!
Forgot about how pretty it was!!
It’s a trap!
Ok Admiral Ackbar.
Ok Ric.
?
Gotta catch on quicker…
What the heck was up with the Unicorn sequence, anyway?
I like it. I think it’s supposed to further the idea that Deckard may be a replicant since unicorns also show up elsewhere in the movie, suggesting it may be someone else’s memory.
And to answer the question. FINAL CUT.
Doesn’t the toy unicorn do just that in a less cheesy way?
Edit: ok so I might watch the final cut this weekend, since everyone’s telling me it’s the way to go. Thanks guys!
But does the toy unicorn on its own tell us for sure it has something to do with Deckard? He has the dream about unicorns, and there’s that toy, and the origami. Without the dream, is the unicorn tied explicitly to Deckard?
Hm yeah I guess you have a point. I’ll watch the final cut version with that in mind, maybe it won’t be as out of place as it was tonight.
What the heck was up with the Unicorn sequence, anyway?
I like it. I think it’s supposed to further the idea that Deckard may be a replicant since unicorns also show up elsewhere in the movie, suggesting it may be someone else’s memory.
And to answer the question. FINAL CUT.
Doesn’t the toy unicorn do just that in a less cheesy way?
Edit: ok so I might watch the final cut this weekend, since everyone’s telling me it’s the way to go. Thanks guys!
Blade Runner - Director’s Cut.
I had never watched this version before, and I really loved it. I’m pretty sure I prefer it over the theatrical cut. Still haven’t watched the final cut - it’s next on my list.
Which version do you guys prefer?
Final Cut minus the Unicorn dream is perfect in my books. I made my own hybrid that does just that and I’ve never gone back.
Also, don’t expect a dramatic difference with the Final Cut. It’s just the Director’s Cut with more polish. (The DC was made without Scott, but from his notes; Scott himself did the Final Cut.)
What do you mean more polish?
Blade Runner - Director’s Cut.
I had never watched this version before, and I really loved it. I’m pretty sure I prefer it over the theatrical cut. Still haven’t watched the final cut - it’s next on my list.
Which version do you guys prefer?
Final Cut minus the Unicorn dream is perfect in my books. I made my own hybrid that does just that and I’ve never gone back.
Yeah what the hell was that unicorn, almost as awkward as the cheesy theatrical ending.
It’s impossible to tell anymore.
Blade Runner - Director’s Cut.
I had never watched this version before, and I really loved it. I’m pretty sure I prefer it over the theatrical cut. Still haven’t watched the final cut - it’s next on my list.
Which version do you guys prefer?
Continuing my Netflix Marvel watching as I can.
The Iron fist: I feel like the lead is the worst actor. Or maybe I just struggling to believe that he is serious when he gets all mystical. I watched it because I had to.
The Defenders: not bad, but not great. Glad to see Jessica Jones though. I watched almost all of the season and it has just barely gotten the team together. Lots to do in the final 3 eps.
Do you think they came out with anything better than the first Daredevil season so far?
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
It does change the surprise factor though. I was pretty surprised when I figured it out. I wouldn’t have liked that to have been taken away.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
Yes! The Rebels too, because presumably most of them had never seen Luke before. Leia too, probably, because that was the last Luke she saw and last time she saw Rey, Rey was on her way to give Luke the blue lightsaber.
Yes, though I don’t know if I’d really call that fooling. Kylo should’ve known better, the Rebels weren’t fooled, they were inspired. Whether Leia knew something was up is open to interpretation (my guess is she ultimately knew exactly what was going on).
Yeah, what I meant is that they didn’t know how Luke was supposed to look like. So they believed in what they were seeing. Leia looked like she knew what was going on, yes, but it’s not as if she knew how Luke actually looked like or something. She might as well have been tricked by good old farm boy.
I’m sure they all had seen images of Luke before. He’s a legend you know! The important detail is he looks like he does in the flashback, which fits the mental image Leia and everyone else who hasn’t seen him in years(?) had.
I guess that’s what I meant haha. But I’m not sure if they had seen images of him before. Star Wars has a very medieval aspect in this regard, as in how the stories usually spread the good old fashioned way.
Just ask George, he should be the one to give the final word.
At first I thought “hey, he shaved!” Then I started picturing Luke trimming his own hair with a lightsaber and so I proceeded to look for the green one, naturally, and ended up finding the blue one. Once that happened I was like “wait what?” Then there was the footprint thing, then the snakey moves to dodge Kylo, etc
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
It does change the surprise factor though. I was pretty surprised when I figured it out. I wouldn’t have liked that to have been taken away.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
Yes! The Rebels too, because presumably most of them had never seen Luke before. Leia too, probably, because that was the last Luke she saw and last time she saw Rey, Rey was on her way to give Luke the blue lightsaber.
Yes, though I don’t know if I’d really call that fooling. Kylo should’ve known better, the Rebels weren’t fooled, they were inspired. Whether Leia knew something was up is open to interpretation (my guess is she ultimately knew exactly what was going on).
Yeah, what I meant is that they didn’t know how Luke was supposed to look like. So they believed in what they were seeing. Leia looked like she knew what was going on, yes, but it’s not as if she knew how Luke actually looked like or something. She might as well have been tricked by good old farm boy.
Just another fun thing, no one seems to talk about how Luke destroyed an entire hut with the wave of a hand (when Kylo and Rey were almost touching hands). That was also one of my favorite scenes. And I loves how he outclassed Rey with the stick too.
Yes, I agree with you on the hut scene. You think Luke outclassed Rey with the staff? I thought Luke eventually got cornered by Rey there. Interesting.
She did corner him, but she pulled the lightsaber to her. If Luke wanted he could’ve taken the lightsaber instead of the stick and the duel would be over in 10s. In other words, she cheated.
Unfortunately Rey just annoys me so much and that makes me so sad, because I’d be loving the new movies I think…
Really? Why? Rey’s supposed to be the protagonist there, the one you sympathize with. Luke is not supposed to be a sympathetic characer, at least in the first part of the movie.
Yep, I know. That’s why it’s unfortunate. She annoyed me in TFA because mostly of the mind trick, and I didn’t really sympathize with her cause or didn’t relate with her struggles and now, the payoffs and consequences in TLJ were much less impactful than what they could’ve and should’ve been. Plus I’m still not entirely sold on how quickly she picked up her abilities.
Well, hyperspace tracking only became a thing in TLJ. I think that’d make RO and ANH a few days apart. Not only that, but Vader never knew if Leia was on board or not.
Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.
What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?
Not to mention, of course, that he does die.
Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.
But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.
I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.
The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.
Exactly. (The only person being “fooled” is Kylo, even though the truth is right in front of him and he’s to angry to see it.) Whether you notice or not doesn’t impact the scene’s power at all, which is basically my point.
Yes! The Rebels too, because presumably most of them had never seen Luke before. Leia too, probably, because that was the last Luke she saw and last time she saw Rey, Rey was on her way to give Luke the blue lightsaber.
Just another fun thing, no one seems to talk about how Luke destroyed an entire hut with the wave of a hand (when Kylo and Rey were almost touching hands). That was also one of my favorite scenes, and am awesome display of power and awesomeness. And I loved how he outclassed Rey with the stick too. Unfortunately Rey just annoys me so much and that makes me so sad, because I’d be loving the new movies if I liked her I think…
Pardon my language guys, but fuck me, I’ve been pretty grumpy today (and the past few days). I mean, yeah I wasn’t fooled and all, but what Dom said was great, I was on the edge of my seat wondering what he was doing, I was interested, even though I wasn’t tense. What an awesome scene that was.
It’s just that I’ve been so frustrated with the council…