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most of a Plinkett review is. Nitpicking.
Except it’s not at all.
Sure, he picks some nits, and even points these out, but most of the review is solid analysis.
I’d say most of the review consists of politically incorrect jokes, but when he analyzes it’s pretty accurate.
Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.
I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.
What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.
What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.
What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.
Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.
He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.
Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.
Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).
Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.
He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.
Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.
Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.
By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉
Both Obi-Wan and Yoda did everything they could to try to stop the Empire before it was too late. That on itself is already enough to distinguish them from Luke. They did everything they could, and Luke did nothing.
Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.
Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.
Pretty different from Luke huh?
Edit: both Yoda and Obi-Wan failed though, and both of them admit it in the end of RotS.
“I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you.”
“Failed, have I […].”
Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.
I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.
What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.
What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.
Both clone wars cartoons are amazing. Not only that, but if we’re making OT Luke a legend, then certainly PT Anakin should be a legend too. I guess he wasn’t because of the Empire, so that’s ok. Still, Luke’s legend doesn’t seem to be damaged by the FO being in power, so…
But ok, I misinterpreted your original reply. Yes, Luke was pretty brave during the OT, I’ll give you that.
What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.
Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.
He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.
Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.
Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).
I’ll also give you this one - that the idea of Luke Skywalker is now more powerful and inspiring than Luke himself, but that’s kind of sad to me, because I really liked his character and looked up to him. Not to the perfect hero, but to the hero that overcame his challenges and learned from his failures. That guy was inspiring, and he wasn’t even a legend. Oh well.
Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.
He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.
Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.
Dre answered this one much better than I could.
Ok, thanks Ash! I’ll report back when I’m done 😄
As a soundtrack, TFA > TLJ.
However, to me, TLJ implemented TFA’s music in an infinitely better and more effective way.
Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.
I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.
What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.
What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.
Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.
He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.
Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.
Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.
He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.
And I still hold the opinion that Luke’s Jedi order would be completely different from the one seen in the prequel trilogy, because he was trained by a hippie Obi-Wan and an exiled much wiser Yoda - both of them being masters that learned from their mistakes and trained Luke differently. Luke was a Qui-Gon like Jedi, imo. Not a Obi-Wan or a Yoda.
I’m sure Luke’s Jedi order was quite different because the circumstances were of course quite different. Which is probably what lead him to believe even more strongly that the mere concept of the Jedi needed to end.
I agree with this one.
Ok… so I think I just finished the Fox seasons. DVD, seasons 1-4, which apparently means that I’m watching them in “production order”. That means I should look for a season 5 that consists of the DVD movies (or the DVD movies themselves), and then the CC ones. Is that right?
Just finished Futurama (thanks Ash). Apparently there are some movies and a couple of other, newer seasons. Has anyone watched them? Does anyone know if it’s as good as the original?
Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.
What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.
And I still hold the opinion that Luke’s Jedi order would be completely different from the one seen in the prequel trilogy, because he was trained by a hippie Obi-Wan and an exiled much wiser Yoda - both of them being masters that learned from their mistakes and trained Luke differently. Luke was a Qui-Gon like Jedi, imo. Not a Obi-Wan or a Yoda.
Well, I was thinking of original songs and pieces I guess. What would you define as a theme?
Edit: ignore this post.
From the OST:
Anakin’s Dark Deeds
Battle of the Heroes/Anakin vs Obi-Wan
Padme’s Ruminations
Anakin’s Dream
The Immolation Scene
Anakin’s Betrayal
Heck, even General Grievous’ theme
What?? RotS had more original themes than TFA, RotJ, TLJ, AotC and TPM…
I left this thread on page 14, and now I’m on the bottom of page 190.
Is it possible to have a short summary of the 176 last pages ?
Actually there’s not much to say.
In the soundtrack it sounds the same.
Eminem - Mockingbird
Definitely my favorite Eminem song.
Blackstreet - No Diggity
Good choice.
Thank you.
Once again, the Oscars are a joke. Wish I could cobble up a fake statuette and somehow get it to Mark. I used to have a fake Oscar, but loaned it out to a local comic shop where it subsequently disappeared.
Agreed. Lucas should’ve won Best Director in 1978, and imo Hamill at least deserved a nomination for this one.
Pretty sure they used the same recording of the main theme for TFA and TLJ. In the soundtrack at least. When I watched it everyone screamed when the crawl came up so I couldn’t really distinguish it. My favorite main theme is still RotJ’s, slightly above all the others tied, except for the ST one which ranks a little bit below. I miss London Symphony Orchestra. I guess they made it more powerful.
I love snow so much!!
I used to think that green saber = Jedi master too.
Edit: I’m still a child so do my problems with the saga still count
It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.
I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.
How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.
I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.
When did we see Luke actually learn from his mistakes? We see him make similar mistakes over and over again and we never see him really grow past it.
I gave you a very clear example in my previous post.
And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core?
It should shake him to the core, but he’s been trained to deal with this stuff both by studying and experience. A fireman is not supposed to freak out at the idea of having to put out a big fire, especially when we saw him put out bigger fires in the past, and he should certainly not give up while the fire is still small, and allow it to burn the house down.
You are building Luke up as a legend and not seeing the flaws he carried right to the end of ROTJ.
And you refuse to acknowledge the growth of Luke’s character over the course of three films.
When Luke threw down his saber and faced the Emperor he knew that he was likely to die. The Emperor didn’t goad him any further, he just tried to kill him. But there is no big huge change in Luke’s personality.
I think you are wrong. For Luke to throw away his weapon in the face of danger, and to resign himself is a major progression of his character. Just look at how he refused to leave his weapon when Yoda suggested he didn’t need it in the Dagobah dark side cave. The Luke who proclaims himself a Jedi is a very different person from the one who enters the cave. That is character progression. It’s poor story telling in my view to then just wipe that all off the table with a sixty second flashback, and more or less say Luke’s different now, move along.
so him making a similar mistake due to the horror of seeing how far his nephew had fallen already could be shock enough for him to act on instinct over intelligence for a moment. I don’t know why that is so hard to believe of his character. His arc was to redeem his father, not to be the perfect Jedi.
No, but his arc was to become a capable one, not one of the worst Jedi in history. Luke became one of the lost 20. The only thing that could have happened, that would be worse, is Luke joining the dark side. At least the PT took three movies to explain (poorly) how Anakin turned from a young hero into an evil monster. TLJ condensed a similar character arc into a sixty second flashback. That won’t do for me.
The one fact that is missed in many discussions surrounding your points is that 30 years have passed. That is a long time to consider ones life and choices, good and bad.
The other thing I was thinking about with regards to the horror Luke feels when he searches Kylo is that Kylo was likely being influenced by Snoke for quite a while by then. It is possible that Luke was sensing the Supreme Leader or at least his evil presence along with Kylo’s turning. This would cause Luke to respond as he does imo.
It might, but IMO thirty years passing is no excuse for plot holes.
I know it’s pointless to bring it up but they aren’t plot holes. You just wanted something different than what you got. Not the same thing.
I think a better way to describe would be “character inconsistencies”.
Poor Rick McCallum.
88 minutes is a bit too short for RotS imo. It’s probably rushed in several places.
Lol.
Do the anti cheese versions or the Kerr edit include any deleted scenes or major re edits?