CatBus

Hells yeah.

Hey DJ, if you're still interested I think we may still be able to do something.  SUP files with PGS contents definitely work on Blu Ray because I've made test discs already.  However, they might not work with all authoring software--that might be the problem.  I'm just using the free stuff: tsmuxer and multiavchd, and I haven't done any menu interactions at all, but I can definitely say it works with Blu Ray, using the remote's "Subtitle" button to switch around.

I also have "regular" subs that are traditional mostly-below-the-frame Arial subs (non-English subs have to be like this).  Also if you don't like the fonts/placement I've used, you can plug in different values and generate your own SUP files.  The workflow is pretty simple, and I designed it to be a framework anyone can use.  Basically you plug in an SRT file and out pops a nicely rendered 720p subtitle.

My project really has its own priorities and they might not mesh 100% with yours.  I'm not terribly intersted in fidelity to existing home video subs for example, and I make changes whenever it met some other goal, some as having the text onscreen slightly longer, etc.  Let me know if you're interested in any part of this, I'm flexible and would not be offended if you wanted my process but not my files, etc.

I still want those screencaps tho ;)  But I'll wait.

Also, I've got workflow documents for how to make subs with new languages (e.g. Swedish), but I ain't doing them myself.  Sorry I'm a bit burnt out after three films in five languages...

The format is PGS, and the file extension of the files I create is .SUP (very different from the DVD .SUP format though)

I am making 720p subs in five languages to accompany your project.  Are you interested? ;)

Basically once I have some screenshots of your alien subs (once those are finalized), I'm releasing my project to the world.  If you need them before my project is released, I can arrange that too.

EDIT: The languages are: English (regular & SDH), Spanish, French, German, and Brazilian Portuguese.  And trust me, the screenshots are relevant, I'm doing something weird involving matching the English subs to the alien subs and it happens to look awesome IMO.

Bah, apparently marking it as forced does absolutely nothing--at least for DVD--you would still need to use some sort of menu logic to turn them on and off when you changed audio tracks.

MultiAVCHD looks promising for HD encoding, perhaps they work differently, although my hopes are low at this point.

I plan on demuxing the MKV and remuxing it onto a proper Blu Ray.  As long as your streams are compatible with that (e.g. maintain 16:9 black bars, etc), I'd be happy.  And that's probably a good yardstick for general compatibility too.

Regarding fan edits, I feel much the same way about Star Wars as I do about endangered animals (let's say a cute one like a Panda).  Fan preservations, we can all probably agree, actually save the pandas.  That's all good.  I feel the same way about Lucas as I do about someone who not only plans to hunt down and kill every last panda, but to grind them up and turn them into hamburgers that don't even taste good, and sell them at a premium as "Panda Burgers".  And you don't even want to know how he recycles them and sells them back to you again a little bit later (and tasting a little worse), but let's just say the plumbing in his restaurant's bathroom isn't exactly up-to-code.

...er, where was I...

Oh yeah, fan edits.  Fan edits are like a guy who knows a lot about pandas, loves them, and has a ton of resources that could be put toward saving them.  But instead he flies to China, takes a picture of a Panda about to get shot by Lucas, and puts a LOLCATS caption on it.  The fact that I don't have to watch it is beside the point. There's just something disrespectful about it, like laughing at a funeral.

Maybe I'd feel better about fan edits once I don't actually think the films are in danger anymore.  I certainly don't care one way or another about fan edits of other films, so that's probably true.

Ah, missed that.  Nevermind.

Are you using these for anything other than color correction?  I can think of a certain hangar shot based on a sub-SD source...

When I am putting a subtitle track into a DVD using muxman, I see the option to mark it "forced".  What exactly tells the DVD player to display the forced subtitle?  Does it just automatically happen when the language marker of the forced track matches the language marker of the current audio track, or does it have to be selected via some menu logic?

How do you mark a subtitle as forced for HD playback?  I see no such option in tsmuxer.  Does some other software do this?  Free, preferably.

Harmy is rightfully wigged out over suggestions like mine.  I shouldn't have suggested it and don't recommend it.  Sometimes people spend decades in jail before they successfully prove they had no right to be arrested in the first place.  Steer this discussion somewhere else.

Harmy said:

Yeah, I really don't like the idea of getting arrested, looking good or not...

We'll bake you a cake with a file in it.  Okay, decent point.

I really like the idea of a massive coordinated showing of the Despecialized Editions in independent theatres, with voluntary donations going to support some cause nobody could possibly object to.  Follow all the private showing rules: no concessions, etc.

Then, a week into it, switch from voluntary donations to a standard admission price, with 100% of it still going toward said charity, and start serving concessions.  Whatever happens after that, from the best case to the worst case, we look good and Lucas looks like an ass.

EDIT: Convincing him is next to impossible, I agree.  But public shaming is a powerful motivator, as is the fact that I suspect this could become hugely profitable for the independent theatres.  And the large chain theatres may start asking where their audiences went, etc, etc...

Mike O said:

Most of all though, this can't just be about Blu-Ray, because as other formats come, we need to stress the need for a release of it in all future formats.

Actually, I disagree here.  Once a (35mm, 24fps) movie has a good Blu-Ray release, it's effectively preserved for posterity.  Sure there are plenty of screwups with DNR and cyan/teal and all that, but assuming a PROPER transfer were done... that's it.  I'm happy.  Forever.

And that's part of what needs to be straightened out too.  Lucas has successfully painted Star Wars fans as impossible to please.  We need to illustrate that it's actually just the opposite.  There's a movie out there called "Ernest Scared Stupid".  It probably has fans.  But those fans don't plaster the Internet with rage because you can get that movie on Blu Ray, and it's the exact same movie they would have seen in the theatre.  They are satisfied.  Star Wars fans are no harder to please than any other group of fans.  They are just more dissatisfied than any other group of fans because the expectations they have--those same really easy-to-meet expectations all fans of all movies have--have been frustrated for well over a decade now.  Fans of Star Wars envy fans of Ernest Scared Stupid.

If something like that were done, you would have to simplify the message to the only thing everyone agrees on: just release the originals.

If you complicate the message with things like not liking prequels & changes, it becomes subjective and easily dismissed, and it doesn't even truthfully represent the views of all fans.

I would avoid like hell any even slight implication that he doesn't have the right to alter his films, because that's red meat for his counter-message.  In fact, we should try to disarm him by explicitly stating that he does have this right and that we fully support it.  It might complicate the message a bit, but it would be worth it to state it unambiguously.

EDIT: Argh, beat to the punch by... well, everyone.

doubleofive said:

HE'S ALIVE! HOORAY!

I believe the correct term is undead. 

He's just adding to the thread for the v1 Despecialized Edition.  The end of the thread is all about the new version.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Harmys-STAR-WARS-Despecialized-Edition-HD-AVCHD-DVD9-and-NTSC-DVD5-AVAILABLE-see-1st-post/topic/12713/

Depends on what you're looking for:

Uncompromised fidelity, but low resolution: dark_jedi

Extreme but not perfect fidelity, mostly HD: Harmy's Despecialized

Grindhouse, scratches, hair and mouse droppings: Puggo

35mm restoration: You'll have to wait...

I personally prefer DJ for SW and ROTJ, and Harmy for ESB, but that's my taste.  If you wait a few months Harmy will have a greatly improved SW that's likely to become my favorite.  DJ's v3 DVDs are available now, the Blu Ray upscale is what's unreleased at the moment.

doubleofive said:I was tempted, but I actually just wanted to show deliberate CG changes from the existing comparisons. I may make alternate even more snarky editions later. ;-)

Just to cross-pollinate the threads, I think this idea would work for the "even more snarky" editions: refer to the SE's of Empire and Jedi as the "Executive Producer's Cuts"

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Worst-Edit-Ideas/post/560055/#TopicPost560055

Jaitea said:

The clip looks brilliant Harmy,

On another subject...when I saw this on the news....for some strange reason I thought of your project....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/9055053/Remarkable-discovery-could-shed-new-light-on-Mona-Lisa.html

J

Bah!  I'm not impressed.  They didn't even have to rotoscope her eyebrows back on!

Harmy said:

thecolorsblend said:

-- OT
GOUT. It's just the best option that I've got ready access to. Besides, I've got little or no use for fan edits and such nonsense. 

The choices are only limited if you allow yourself to be limited by blindly condemning fan efforts.

 

In defense of thecolorsblend, the existence of "fan preservations" as a subset of "fan edits" is counterintuitive to many, and certainly unknown to most (even members of this forum may simply never check that part of the forum).  I'm a relatively recent member of this forum and the existence of fan preservations was a major, world-shaking revelation for me.

The whole idea that fans, using (mostly) home video releases, could create a better-quality product than studios who actually have access to film masters and tons of expensive equipment seemingly defies logic.  That's why "the GOUT is as good as it gets" is such an entrenched opinion.  Not to mention that fan edits are almost entirely used to modify films to the whims of the fan and are often dismissed outright without realizing that there can be other motivations.  So yes, there's some blindness here, but I can understand where it comes from.

I'd also recommend dark_jedi's preservations in addition to Harmy's.  Right now DJ makes my favorite SW and ROTJ, and Harmy makes my favorite ESB.  Although Harmy is well on his way to making my favorite SW too.

Harmy said:

What kind of project? It's just a workprint. I'd prefer it not be used for anything other than reviewing the progress of this project.

That being said, if it isn't anything you'll be releasing publicly, it's not a problem and the easiest way to alter the framerate is to remux it with TS Muxer or MKV Merge or something like that and set the framerate to your desired fps. It won't reencode the video.

Excellent, thanks.  I just want to make sure my subs don't overlap the Greedo subs.  It's the sort of thing where a one-frame overlap can actually look pretty ugly.  I know basing anything on a workprint is iffy, but I'm just really hoping the subs don't get changed much from the workprint.  I hope to release my project once I have that and some screencaps from DJ, so you should have access to them if you like before 2.0 is final.

I assume we're also still waiting on new audio from h_h before anything final?

What's the best way to convert the workprint from 25fps to 24 fps?  I'm working on a project where I need to sync it with a PGS stream and it would be helpful to have it at the right speed for that.

INv8r_ZIM said:

Not sure why this is as I'm playing it off the HDD of my Aios which handles BD ISOs fine.

Ran into this on my computer too.  Switched from VLC to MPC-HT for playback and it was smooth.  Not sure what the difference was.