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CatBus

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Join date
18-Aug-2011
Last activity
5-Dec-2019
Posts
5,255

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Post
#1308522
Topic
Star Wars Holiday Special - Zion Hybrid v2
Time

Nothing fancy for me – I think DVD quality still gives this material plenty of headroom. I’d like to see the optional MST3K crawl handled as a menu-navigable chapter stop. Watching just the Holiday Special by jumping to a chapter in the stream, or watching with the MST3K commentary by playing the stream from the beginning. I suppose if you went with HD this could be seamless branching, but a chapter stop would work there too, at least in disc form.

Post
#1307345
Topic
Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)
Time

Not exactly. The letters of the matching subtitles fonts are designed to very closely match the 35mm theatrical appearance of every letter as it appeared in the trilogy. For example, the letter “z” doesn’t show up in any of the English subtitles, but the German prints used the same font and I grabbed a “z” from there, and that’s how I have a mostly complete lowercase Latin alphabet, some uppercase, punctuation and even some diacritics.

The font I based this on is Franklin Gothic, which has even more characters than those that appear in the Greedo/Jabba text in any language. I used those characters to fudge any missing Latin characters and punctuation, using the appearance of the others for a best guess, and now I have a complete usable Latin alphabet, some diacritics, and a decent amount of punctuation.

That font also had Greek and Cyrillic characters, so technically, yes, you could use it to create Greek text. But – and this is important – that text will not match whatever font was used on Greek theatrical prints (because I don’t know which font was used, if any – the French and Italian prints for Star Wars used entirely different fonts, only Jedi used the same font we see on English prints) AND even if the Greek letters are kinda-sorta in the same style of the English matching fonts, they don’t have most of the customizations I did, because I only did that to the Latin characters.

So if you use the matching font, the Greek letters will look like a semi-bold Franklin Gothic Demi Condensed font, which is honestly probably pretty close to what you want. But the Greek letters won’t have the custom inter-letter spacing or rounded corners which really give that theatrical feel. But the punctuation will, and so will Greek letters that the font just references from the Latin characters, like “E”, “í” and “o”, which might make it look a little sloppy and haphazard when the two styles are all mixed together, even though they’re close.

You’d probably have a more consistent appearance by just using an unmodified Franklin Gothic font.
http://fontsgeek.com/fonts/Franklin-Gothic-Demi-Cond-Regular. It’s almost as good and certain to be more consistent.

Honestly your best non-technical route is to just change your playback software to use this font for subtitles. Size, position, and drop-shadow may not be right – but trying to render Greek subs in this new font and get the size, position, and drop-shadow just right is going to involve not only running all that custom code, but diving into the Python code and modifying some of the variables too. It’s not for the faint of heart.

But your question isn’t too far out there. We just had a situation where someone needed to render Greedo’s subtitles using the matching fonts in Navajo, and that was all custom work. But it was from an easier starting point, since Navajo uses Latin characters and just had a few diacritics that needed to be Photoshopped to match.

Now, if you have any idea what the Greedo and Jabba subs looked like in theatrical prints shown in Greece during their initial theatrical runs, then you might be able to help me (if you have photos/scans/bootlegs).

Post
#1306876
Topic
A Letter to Harmy
Time

Seems like a fine place to post this. Harmy doesn’t post here too frequently these days, but if a bunch of people chime in with their own thank-yous, it’ll be a nice thread for him to return to. And frankly he could use a little more thanks and a little less “Could you adjust Han’s skin tone in this one scene?” if we’re going to convince him to keep doing more of this work 😉

Now on to important questions. Is Dr. Vader a medical doctor, or does he have a doctorate degree? Or is it more of an honorary title like with Dr. J? Or is it more like Dr. Pepper?

Post
#1305774
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Is 005 or anyone else currently committed to being the clearinghouse of any new (or reverted) changes in these 4K versions?

This is vital information for any future despecialization efforts, and since the streaming release is well ahead of the physical release, it gives us the ability to already have a pretty complete roadmap of what to do the day the discs come out.

…assuming no additional changes in the physical releases 😉

Post
#1305059
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Broom Kid said:

CatBus said:

In my sense of the term (described earlier), it makes sense. Are you talking about the originals or not? “Special Edition” means “not”, so it works for everything from 1997 onward,

You’d have to start with 1981 then. Which wasn’t called a Special Edition either.

I would not call anything a Special Edition that did not change a majority of the original film, so the 81 changes don’t qualify. Obviously we don’t share the same definition, and you are free to call the 81 revision a Special Edition, but I won’t.

To be clear, I’m not sure exactly where the line should be. What if 40% of a film were altered? But I do know that I’m comfortable that changing a majority of the film makes it a different film.

the idea that most of the movie got changed really doesn’t make any sense.

There’s the crux of the problem. Most of the movie simply was changed. Whether it made sense to change most of the movie is beside the point.

Fixing VFX, re-adding deleted scenes, and making VFX content changes on top of the film restoration isn’t the same as writing a comedy script and performing it non-stop over the soundtrack. One is a satirical transformation of the work into a completely different thing. The other is the 1997 release, named as “Special Edition”

I agree it’s not a perfect comparison. There’s a big difference between intentionally telling jokes and unintentional cringe humor. If MST3K: The Movie had been written by Sacha Baron Cohen, it might be a better comparison.

All the other editions of the film are just that - variations. It makes much more sense to simply refer to the year their visual changes were adopted than to call half of the editions by a name they never had.

It’s unhelpful to call all thirteen versions “just variations”, because they are easily and logically grouped into two sets. One group of revisions changed less than 5% of the original film. Another group of revisions changed well over 50% of the original film, but are within 5% of each other. One set of revisions centers on the “original films”, and one centers on the “special editions”. What terms to use two describe these two different groups of revisions is left as an exercise for the reader.

but a blanket condemnation on post-release changes in general, applied to ANY film ,and not just Star Wars. I get it.

Not quite. I’m honestly not sure if any other film has had a majority of it altered and released again, except for a This Island Earth type scenario. Colorized films would qualify, I guess. But not Blu-ray releases with an extra scene. The Special Editions are different from most other films both because of the scale of their changes, and the unavailability of the originals.

Post
#1305049
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Broom Kid said:

I disagree because describing the less than 5-10 minutes total of changes to all 350+ minutes of the movies as a “remake” doesn’t seem fair or accurate, even accounting for the flexibility of language.

There were 5-10 minutes of changes in the titles, crawl, and credits for each film alone – you’re excluding all of the parts with actors, dialogue, and special effects! If you break it down shot-by-shot or scene-by-scene, I’d say it’s very safe to say a majority for each film were altered (video or audio) for the Special Editions. Some changes were certainly less noticeable than others (Empire had the most changes numerically, but the changes were more subtle than the jarring scene insertions in Jedi).

The fact that some of the original footage remains more-or-less intact doesn’t really mean much to me. IMO This Island Earth and MST3K: The Movie are definitely different films even though they share quite a lot of footage. One is a classic sci-fi film and one is a farce that puts that classic in a ridiculous light. It’s pretty much exactly the same for the originals and the special editions.

The 1997 versions are the only ones to be have the title “Special Edition” applied to it

I believe that was a marketing decision. The term Special Edition was poison by 2004, and the SE’s were considered by Lucas to be the sole version of the films, so they dropped the term, both to boost sales and to prevent brand confusion.

There are so many versions of Star Wars at this point the idea of calling most of them “Special Editions” increasingly doesn’t make any sense.

In my sense of the term (described earlier), it makes sense. Are you talking about the originals or not? “Special Edition” means “not”, so it works for everything from 1997 onward, with the exception of the GOUT release, which was at least for Star Wars a new edit of the originals that nobody had seen before. If you want to distinguish between Special Edition releases, there’s 97SE, 04SE, 11SE, and 19SE. “Special Edition” is also helpful as a dismissive term. It carries the useful connotation of “Don’t bother with it, it’s not the real thing”. “Want to watch Star Wars on Disney+?” “No, it’s just the Special Edition.” It still works no matter how many times they revise it.

Post
#1305017
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

LexX said:

CatBus said:

So are we calling this one the 19SE yet? Dibs!

Let’s see, for Star Wars, ignoring some of the subtler differences (the cloudy composite/altered credits/natural home video variance between releases), we’ve got:

1977: original video (mono mix)
1977: original video (stereo mix)
1977: original video (six-channel mix)
1981 (3): “A New Hope” crawl and flyover, same three audio choices (crudely spliced onto 70mm reels, but still different)
1985: new audio mix, 1981 video
1993: new audio mix with alterations, 1981 video
1997SE: altered audio and video
2004SE: altered audio and video
GOUT: unique pairing of original video with 1993 audio
2011SE: altered audio and video
2019SE: altered audio and video

Star Wars is now weighing in at THIRTEEN distinct versions of the film. And that’s when you exclude the obscure ones!

I’m hesitant calling anything Special Edition that isn’t actually the Special Edition, from 1997. To me, they are the SE, DVD edition, BD edition and now this 4K edition.

For me Special Edition isn’t a particular release, it’s (essentially) a different set of films. More like a remake than a video release. So all of the pre-97 changes are alternate versions of one set of films (the Original Trilogy), and all of the post-97 changes are alternate versions of another set of films (the Special Editions). Just as I include the 1993 release as part of the OOT, I include the 2019 release as part of the SE. Words mean different things to different people, YMMV.

Post
#1304886
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

DominicCobb said:

Doubleofive’s got the definitive collection of SE visual changes, but does anyone have a list of audio changes? I honestly don’t even know what 90% of them are.

I could probably do a highlights reel, but nothing definitive.

Star Wars
85: Threepio’s tractor beam lines added
93: Shattering glass sound effects added in cell bay shootout
97: All kinds of new audio for all the new scenes, most notably crappy knockoff dinosaurs make crappy knockoff dinosaur noises
04: Obi-Wan’s call that scares off the Sandpeople now sounds like the sound effects guy got drunk
11: Obi-Wan’s call that scares off the Sandpeople now sounds like some guy yelling in a parking lot
19: Greedo yells “Maclunkey!” just before Han shoots him

Empire
93: More-or-less good but still flawed attempt to remaster the 1980 audio, missing a sound effect for the snowspeeder crash
97: All kinds of new audio for all the new scenes, most notably the Emperor from the wrong film inexplicably screams offscreen as Luke falls in Cloud City
04: That bit where the Emperor from the wrong film inexplicably screams is removed, and Boba Fett is overdubbed by some dude
11: Can’t think of any audio content changes, but do you seriously think it’s likely there aren’t any?
19: Vader yells “Maclunkey!” just before Han shoots at him

Jedi
93: More-or-less good remaster of 1983 audio, with very slight content differences (thunder during transition to Yoda’s hut)
97: All kinds of new audio for all the new scenes, most notably Jabba’s palace is interrupted by a horrifying music video
04: Jar-Jar yells at the end of the film
11: That guy from Shattered Glass inexplicably screams “No! No!” offscreen as Vader starts to throw the Emperor into the reactor
19: The Sarlacc yells “Maclunkey!” just before Han shoots its tentacle



Post
#1304827
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Danfun128 said:

“GOUT: unique pairing of original video with 1993 audio”

Don’t you mean unique pairing of 1993 audio and video with 1997 crawl?

No, the GOUT featured the 77 crawl, definitely not the 97 crawl – that was its only saving grace. I’m considering the THX-remastered video still to be essentially the same as the 1981 video (ruddy-hued skintones and four-eyed stormtroopers being a hallmark of the 93 release, but too minor of a change for this list – more an artifact of the troubled home video production process than anything). But yes, it was the 93 video with the 77 crawl tacked on if you like, I just didn’t consider that a distinction worth making. Basically, I was thinking in terms of a seamless branching multi-audio mega-edition, how many cuts would there be? I’m not sure a DVNR-smeared cut would make the grade, but at least thirteen distinct versions certainly would.

Post
#1304789
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

So are we calling this one the 19SE yet? Dibs!

Let’s see, for Star Wars, ignoring some of the subtler differences (the cloudy composite/altered credits/natural home video variance between releases), we’ve got:

1977: original video (mono mix)
1977: original video (stereo mix)
1977: original video (six-channel mix)
1981 (3): “A New Hope” crawl and flyover, same three audio choices (crudely spliced onto 70mm reels, but still different)
1985: new audio mix, 1981 video
1993: new audio mix with alterations, 1981 video
1997SE: altered audio and video
2004SE: altered audio and video
GOUT: unique pairing of original video with 1993 audio
2011SE: altered audio and video
2019SE: altered audio and video

Star Wars is now weighing in at THIRTEEN distinct versions of the film. And that’s when you exclude the obscure ones!

Post
#1304736
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Broom Kid said:

Just spitballing: would using the 2020 UHD and 4K77/4K83 to target a 1080p release (much like current DeSpec uses 1080p sources to target a 720p release) be a viable option here?

DeEd targeted 720p originally because it was based on HD cable broadcasts of the 04SE. DeEd actually predates the Blu-rays it’s now based on. When the 11SE Blu-rays finally came out, some of the other footage (particularly the GOUT) was pushing it to get upscaled to 720p, so 720p was a happy medium (it blends better). Only when the GOUT started to disappear as a source did Harmy start seriously considering 1080p. So a 1080p DeEd from 1080p Blu-rays is not only possible, it seemed to be the plan until just now.

Similarly, a 4K UHD could theoretically lead to a 4K DeEd. I’d expect 1080p would make a better happy medium at that point, because our projection print scans, while worlds better than the GOUT and available in 4K, still don’t even have 720p worth of non-grain fine detail and wouldn’t blend well with a 4K scan of negatives and IP’s at higher resolutions.

That’s all my opinion though. YMMV.

It leaves ESB sort of out in the cold until 4K80 gets finished, I guess. It’s kind of funny that the movie typically considered to be the best Star Wars movie is the one that’s taking the longest to get finished. Such is the way of things. The way of the Force…

No, there is another 😉

I don’t know if Poita’s collaborating with the 4K80 team at this point, but whatever preservation is based on his print is the one worth watching. I’m sure others mean well and may even finish first, but Poita spent the stupid amount of money, he’s got the stupid amount of equipment, and he’s got the stupid amount of expertise – and the print he’s got matches all that.

Harmy doesn’t need a complete film scan to make a DeEd. He just needs film scans for the bits he needs to despecialize. Poita’s 4K film print scan has already contributed to the current ESB release in that regard, IIRC. No need to wait.

Post
#1304707
Topic
[Official] All Star Wars films released in 4K HDR on Disney Plus: 4KSE with more changes
Time

Danfun128 said:

So, if this is a completely new unreleased master that, additional changes aside, is objectively better than the 2004/2011 master, how will this affect the Despecialized editions and projects like it? Is Harmy going to cancel the 3.0 of ESB and ROTJ, and then do a 4.0 of all three movies based off these new masters (assuming they don’t appear in higher bitrate form on 4k Blu-ray or something in a year or two)?

That’s ultimately up to him, but they seem “better enough” to me to warrant the switch and do-over, even if he sticks to 1080p. Waiting for the UHD is also an option – and since he doesn’t have a whole hell of a lot of time anyway, he may end up waiting that long regardless.

The problem is that all kinds of minor new changes can have slipped in, based on how this was created (re-scanning the 97SE film elements, then re-doing the 2011SE changes over the top, and adding new inexplicable changes). The new color grade needs to be adjusted, even though it’s worlds better, and so on. Starting over using these sources would be a much bigger job than you may think.

IMO the DeEd’s are in a good enough space (well, except maybe Star Wars) where they can afford to wait. Being based on the Blu-ray (i.e. using negatives or IP’s as sources instead of projection prints), they still have the most fine detail of any preservation out there – even at 720p! – and the second two are very close to perfect already, save for the issues imported from the Blu-ray.