C3PX

Darth Id said:

(However, I have the misfortune of possessing curiosity sufficient to impel me to read books, which I know other people do not do, so I don't really bother recommending anything anymore.)

Yes, this is why millions of books are published every year, for Darth Id's pleasure. Because he is absolutely right, nobody but him does read books.

Bingowings said:

There were the Tube and Bus attacks in London but you don't have to pass your kiddies through the x-ray strip show machine to get onto the underground or pass the car through a scanning bridge...

Glad I am not the only one disturbed by those machines. When they were first talked about by the media, it seemed most people were perfectly cool with them, because ultimately they would make them safer, and they felt suffering being in a free peep show was a fair trade off. It is okay I don't mind being sheered, so long as it somehow helps keeps the wolves away.

The last thing I'd do though is put guns on planes.

A stray bullet is more likely to bring a plane down than a nutter with a knife.

Not really. We have armed air marshals flying around all the time in the US... I've never heard of one of them downing a plane. Plenty of arrests made on planes too. But nutters with knifes took down multiple planes on one day. Usually a gun works wonders without a shot even being fired. Just knowing there are multiple armed security personnel on each flight would make something like 9/11 that much more difficult to pull off. Far better solution than nearly strip searching every fifth individual to pass through the line, and taking away our bottled water and shaving cream.

A B C said:

5 lines to describe me as a preacher when you had all the elements to measure my involvement in the discussion were too much. That's WTF I dared calling so.

The problem here is that every body sticks on his idea holding it like a shield either like a sword against each other. I told you it was not the good place to discuss such things. Only two persons here insisted to discuss these things. It was not Bingo, nor me. It was two people that made understand us very well that what is said through the medias shouldn't be questionned. Also two persons that never questionned geopolitical and money stakes and interweavings... Notably as causes, rather than consequences.

I can't tell what you are trying to say here, but you seem to be getting a bit huffy. Is it really so impossible to have a friendly conversation?

I suppose I am one of the ones (Ash being the other?) you are accusing of never questioning the media or geopolitical stakes? If so, your accusations are absolutely unfounded. You are basing that accusation on my lack of belief in a 9/11 conspiracy. I told you before, I looked into a lot of that stuff, read some books, watched documentaries, and failed to find anything that really convinced me. All of their finest arguments were easily countered. I am not holding anything up as a shield. I seriously looked into all this stuff and came out the other side unconvinced. You mentioned all this "bold" research into the subject, and made me think there was something new I should look at, which is the only reason I asked to discuss this.

Haha, that is pretty cool! That would be a lot of fun just to listen to the music.

Who hides? What brought this up? I am now very curious.

.

Bingowings said:

In answer to C3PX direct question aviation fuel can melt steel but most of that fuel would have spent in the initial blast.

I didn't ask a direction question about whether or not aviation fuel can melt steel. I know all of the details on that already. I asked if this was the type of BS you and ABC were on about, and now I see that it is.

A B C said:

I don't have the time you have to write ten kilometers posts as you do

I write long post because I DON'T have a lot of time. If I had more time on my hands, I could afford to be more concise. It takes me no time at all to jot down my thoughts in three paragraphs, but it would take me a considerably longer time to convey those very same thoughts in one paragraph.

Also, please leave off the attack position here.

Attack position? WTF are you talking about? I wasn't attacking you, I was simply discussing the topic at hand. Are you seriously trying to use this to bring back last weeks issue?

Bingowings said:

What angers me about the security measures in airports these days (penning large numbers of people in one small place, making them hold a selection of objects in little plastic bags, having them partially disrobe in public and having them perform a digital strip search regardless of age) is that it's disproportionate to the risk and underlines the atmosphere of society under siege.

Isn't this giving the terrorists exactly what they want?

I agree with you completely on this. It is very frustrating, and is a constant reminder that terrorism has successfully done its job by creating terror... that has lasted for almost ten years now.

I think a far more reasonable security measure would be for airlines to hire armed guards for every plane or for there to be a requirement that every flight have at least one air marshal on board.

Darth Id said:

ChainsawAsh said:

1) The building had been weakened in the initial attack/collapse, and it was clear that it would collapse eventually.  The BBC had all the reports prepared for when the building finally did collapse, so they could talk about it right away. 

Gee, "they" sure were confident!

Ah, so the BBC was in on this conspiracy too! Crazy! Glad they were able to get their reporters, who obviously had to be in the know, to keep their mouths shut about this for all these years.

Seriously, some of you people will believe anything. Bingo mentioned how it is a shame you can't separate the want-to-knows from the want-to-believes on this topic. I agree with him, if there really was something, I would want to know about it. Which is why I spent a lot of time looking into it several years back, and came to the eventual conclusion that it is all a bunch of want-to-believes at work. The reason why I don't think there are many good sources of information from the want-to-knows out there, is because the want-to-knows realize it is all just a bunch of weakly backed, poorly founded, rubbish.

A B C said:

... Somebody brought a serious answer (finally).

You mean,

... Somebody brought an answer you agree with (finally).

Hmm, my biggest lack of interest in Reach was my fear that it would be more of the same. You may say, 'But hey, it is Halo, and that is what people want, more Halo.'

Fine, but most popular game series have managed to do a good deal better than Halo in terms of fresh and new ideas from game to game, and when they haven't people got tired of them, much like I have done with Halo.

Looking at all my favorite game series, they have all made drastic changes over time. The second Zelda game was significantly different from the first one, and the third was significantly different than those two, when we finally got to Ocarina of Time, it was significantly different from the others. Metroid 2 was very different from Metroid, and again, the third one was also very fresh and original. Monkey Island is the same way. Half-Life 2 took a very different direction from Half-Life, and Valve has been careful to make sure new and original ideas were used in each of the expansions. All these games carried on the spirit of those that came before, but they made things new and fresh each time around. Halo... not so much.

So hearing that it is basically "Halo: The Greatest Hits Collection", definitely isn't a selling point for me. I like Halo, but I'd like to see something new and fresh done with the series. ODST was a step in the right direction IMHO, but not quite far enough. I had been hoping Reach would be a farther step in the right directions, but advertisements and what I have read about it have made me feel that it seems more like a step back from that direction. If I wanted more of the same, I pop my copy of Halo:CE/Halo 2/Halo 3/Halo 3: ODST back in my console, rather than pay $60 for it. Why own a bands greatest hits when you already own their entire discography?

Gaffer Tape said:

They didn't have guns or even any really effective weapons, right? Killing forty people with plastic knifes, or whatever they used, is going to take some effort. Not to mention, once you kill that first person, then the second, then the third, those remaining people are going to start to grow some incredible grapefruit sized balls and start fighting back. Safer just to lie and say it is all going to be okay, than have a mob of 30 plus people to fight off.

A B C said:

I don't have any more leads to links, sorry, but you may find it...

Sounds like you really don't have anything. You're making a claim, and leaving it to those you are trying to convince look it up for themselves. It is like a Christian evangelist running around yelling, God exists! Look it up for yourself, there is incredible evidence by honest and hard working people looking to uncover the truth. It is out there on the internet, it will take some searching, but look it up, it is out there...

Do it, it would be something you would remember for a long time, unlike just walking into the store and buying it the next day.

Still trying to decide if I am interested in Reach or not.

Bingowings said:

The official story would be plausible enough if it wasn't for the conjunction of PNAC and the bizarre physics involved in the collapse of those buildings...

Bizarre physics? You mean how fire can't melt steel? Are people still on about that? This has been gone over countless times by people of all different biases, the physics stand, nothing bizarre about them. I think people are way too quick to want to believe conspiracy theories, that they are willing deactivate their brains and believe some really goofy stuff in order to do so.

If there really were gaping holes in the "official" story, that would be one thing, but as it is, it is all just a bunch of desperate grasping at ways to make a conspiracy plausible at the expense of reality. Unfortunately, there are enough documentaries out there promoting the conspiracies, and enough lazy people out there watching them who can't be bothered to do any fact checking regarding what they are being fed, that we end up with a lot of people 100% convinced. In the end, fantasy is way more interesting and exciting than reality, so we opt to take fantasy and run with it. Elvis isn't dead, he was abducted by aliens. An alien aircraft crashed in New Mexico and the government have it stored away, along with a frozen alien corps, at Area 51. Tupac is living it up on an island someplace. J.F.K. was killed by his own government. And 9/11 was orchestrated by the banks and George W. Bush (whose administration couldn't even conduct a war without seriously screwing it up). And my grandmother is an active undead ninja assassin.

Well then Happy Birthday!

No! It wasn't directed at you, DS. It was directed at the guy I quoted when I posted it.

Still 9/11 my time, and in other parts of the world. Are you sure you want regularly scheduled/unscheduled insanity/asshatery to resume just yet?

Never was able to get into Guitar Hero/Rock Band. Always thought it looked really stupid, finally allowed some friends to talk me into trying it out, and ended still feeling it looked stupid. Obviously it isn't for everyone, but neither are the kinds of games I enjoy. That is pretty cool you scored it for just $23. I always figured that if I were to get into that sort of thing, the PS2 would be the way to go. Being an older console you seem to be able to buy the controllers cheaper, and I can't imagine the PS2 versions of the games being that far watered down from the current generation versions.

Sorry, Warb.

You seemed to be referring to some amazing bold look into the events which most people are not aware of. I will just have to assume that the "truther" stuff Warb mentioned is the sort of thing you are referring to, in which case, I have already heard all the arguments. If I google search it myself, all I will find are the likes of Rosie O'Donnell shouting about how "fire doesn't melt steel", which made her sound even more ridiculous than the poor woman usually did. 

When doing research, documentaries are the absolute worse way to find information. They are always a bunch of smoke and mirrors providing half truths in order to make their point to their viewers. It is essentially listening to a single voice for a duration, and being asked to take your stance based on that. Even the opponents of the idea that may appear in a fair and balanced documentary are at the mercy of the editor for their words to show through in the manner they intended them to be heard when they spoke them. Not to mention, you linked to a TV show that also exposed government UFO cover ups. Makes it hard to take seriously. Not to say I don't agree with somethings said about the national banks, but I think a lot of people take it to comedic proportions.

Sure, not saying you didn't have a right to be. Just said it wasn't my natural emotional response to the situation, and that the blood-lust shinning forth through emails from my friends back in the states kind of disturbed me.

Had I lived in the country at that time, and been in a city as close to NY as you were, I might have felt more like you did.

A B C said:

C3PX said:

... This wasn't our first terror attack from the now infamous Al Qaeda.

I can't believe what I'm reading here... I haven't seen the least evidence of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_1993_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_al-Qaeda_attacks

As further reply though I could only suggest people taking a look at the courageous and serious investigation work(s) I have mentioned in my first post above. Not something I'd discuss here (due to my poor language, and also due to the original purpose of this site). I'm only throwing the bottle.

I have looked at quite a few "courageous investigations" of 9/11 conspiracies, and have never seen anything more than sensationalized wishful thinking.

However, I am always interested in keeping an open mind and reading more. Mind handing the bottle my way via PM with a few links?

Warbler said:

I was too, weren't you? 

No. It was going to happen sooner or later, we had been given warnings, it wasn't even the first time it happened. I mean, I wasn't happy about what happened, but I wasn't angry in the bloodthirsty kind of way that I was finding in my email's inbox everyday. I found their torch and pitchfork attitudes kind of unsettling. I didn't see much point in being angry, I was expecting a dirty bomb sooner or later with more than 50,000 dead. 3,000 out of 50,000+ is downright amazing. I still say we got lucky. But again, not saying I didn't find it upsetting. Anger just wasn't my emotional response to it, and I didn't find it to be a very productive emotional response.

Warbler said:

C3PX said:I was expecting something of even greater magnitude to be hitting any day (as I am once again at this very moment),

what are you expecting?

Another attack.

C3PX said:

and was actually fairly relieved as the death toll continued to shrink. It could have been a lot worse.

3000 is not what I call a small death toll.  

But considering 50,000 people worked in those buildings, plus the number of people on the planes, only 3,000 dying in the attack over all is incredibly remarkable.

C3PX said:

I got angry emails from my old friends back home,

if its not too personal, why were they angry at you?

They were not angry at me. They were angry about the attacks.

Warbler said:

C3PX said:

  They did break our spirits, the towers did stay down, and their archaic ways succeeded in ways I would have never imagined possible at the time.

in what ways do you think they've succeeded.

They got the world to be afraid and live in fear. I used to spend a lot of time in airports, and at one point I thoroughly enjoyed traveling by plane. Since the end of 2001 it has become a miserable process, I now absolutely dread it. We are still living in that fear to this day. Some would even argue that every time we loose one of our troops in Afghanistan or Iraq, he or she is yet another casualty of 9/11.

The Qur'an burning threats. The big stink about the Islamic Center in Manhattan. The aftershock of 9/11 lives.

I was an expatriate at the time, so I missed out on the whole being brought together bit. Made life interesting. I had three nearly violent encounters in the months that followed 9/11 and the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom, thanks to my painfully American appearance. And I had at least twice as many awkward encounters with people trying to share their sorrow with me, and comfort me for the sorrow they knew I must have been experiencing. I got angry emails from my old friends back home, and they made me feel really grateful I was away. I found their attitudes about the whole thing extremely unpleasant.

Operation Enduring Freedom made for kind of an embarrassing time to be an expatriate. Everyone around me was waiting for the newly awakened sleeping dragon to snap into action and leave the world in awe, proving once again that you simply don't mess with America. Instead several of our first casualties came from our own stupid chopper crashes, not from actual combat. I remember being in a bar watching the news and hearing someone comment, "If the Americans keep on killing themselves like this, the war is going to be over in no time."

My personal 9/11 story doesn't differ much from anyone else, except for the fact that my story doesn't include the phrase "I was shocked". I wasn't. I still don't think there was much to be shocked about. This wasn't our first terror attack from the now infamous Al Qaeda. It wasn't even the first attack on the WTC. It was a horrible thing that happened, and shocking in the details of the surprising way it was pulled off. I was expecting something of even greater magnitude to be hitting any day (as I am once again at this very moment), and was actually fairly relieved as the death toll continued to shrink. It could have been a lot worse.

Bingowings said:

The whole response to this terrible crime stinks as much as the crime itself.

I agree wholeheartedly. The victory of that day is still something that can be legitimately basked in by those who committed the crime. It achieved its goal of terrorizing people, and now, nearly ten years later we are still living in terror.

Warb, the way I feel about the towers not having been rebuilt, and I think the way Ferris and Bingowings seem to feel about it as well, is that it is kind of an admission of defeat. Oh, okay, you knocked down our towers...

Rebuilding them ASAP would have been a really impressive stand. As if to say, You can blow up our buildings, you can kill our people, but you can't defeat us. You can spill the innocent blood of countless civilians, but you can't break our spirits. You knocked down our towers, but they didn't stay down. You, with your archaic low down ways failed... and against us, you will NEVER succeed.

Rebuilding them would have been a fantastic declaration of defiance... but unfortunately, nothing I said in the above sentence is true. They may not have defeated us, but we haven't defeated them either, they still remain plenty strong. They did break our spirits, the towers did stay down, and their archaic ways succeeded in ways I would have never imagined possible at the time. They are the clear victors in all of this, and we have done just slightly more than nothing to rain on their parade.

Who? ;)

A B C said:

 

I have definitely found a new avatar for C3PX !!! :)

Did you meet in a swamp down on Dagobah?