C3PX

My dislike of Vista is from personal experience. I am not a huge Microsoft hater or anything, Windows 98 was pretty rough, but I thought ME was great, and I'd go as far to say I loved XP. I have never had a hard time getting anything to work under XP, its compatibilty mode has always worked for me to get programs to work on it, and for the rare few that had glitches, I'd use virtual PC. It also ran OS8 beautifully through Basilisk II, which I used for all my old Mac programs.

Vista, even with all the bells and whistles turned off, is a slow piece of crap and a resource hog. Its "security features" (though they can be turned off, most people don't know how) are incredible annoying. "Oh, what? You want to open this program? Are you sure about that? I mean, really, really sure about that? It might not be a good idea, it could cause the end of the universe or severely alter space and time, are you really sure you would like to open this program? Are you an administrator on this system? Oh, you are? Okay, you can go ahead and open this program, so long as you are sure that is what you would like to do. You are sure about this aren't you? For my part, I don't think it is a very good idea, but I am just your computer, what do I know? Shall I open this program for you then? I wouldn't if I were you. Well, if your mind is set on it I guess I am going to open this program for you, that is, unless you care to reconsider"

"Allow, allow, allow, allow, just open my damn program already!!!

So, yeah, I have been less than impressed with Vista on many aspects based on my own experience. I have no idea what the "blogsphere" says about it, but I am not surprised if they don't like it, as I did not.

I too have been trying to find them, with no luck.

Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. You have this weird tendancy to define words on your own terms, and unfortunately, language doesn't work that way. And no, that is not a personal opinion of my, language seriously doesn't work that way. Non debatable. "Fad" can be defined as "a short lived fashion, something that is embraced very enthusiastically for a short time."

"Pop culture" is something that has ingrained itself into a culture.

And no, we are not debating semantics now, you just like to define words however the hell you choose and categorize things as you see them (i.e. "Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are not classics).

negative one said:

i'm canadian/american [was in canada during 77, and in america during 80->present]

yes, 'star wars' the movie was a 'fad'.....

'star wars' pop culture wise only manifested itself much later, it's hard to see it's presence

until 'return of the jedi' and much much later than that..

i don't consider a few references here and there to be indicative of a larger sign of significance,

other figures such as 'the terminator', 'rambo' etc, are also just as popular in speech.....

just because a movie makes a lot of money doesnt' signify much : see 'titantic', 'dark knight' etc..

it's actually the merchandising which remains much more significant... i think i mentioned

that the series has generated some US$20 billion in revenue, which is something the

movies will never be able to generate...

"'Star Wars' popculture wise only manifested itself much later, it's hard to see it's presence until 'return of the jedi' and much much later than that..."

Where did you come up with that? You are almost arguing aginst yourself. First you say it was only popular for a while, then died out, just like all fads do. Then you flip it and say that it was not until after the films died out that they became pop culture? Again, reality is not to be redinfined by one persons perspective, you may live in your own world, but in the world the rest of us live in, SW was VERY much in popular culture right out of '77, and was compounded by the sequels. Just because its merchandising died down a bit (if you can really a constant array of best selling video games, comics, more than one fan magazine dedicated to the series was in wide circulation during the time you say there was a big drought. Maybe the market wasn't flooded with SW crap there for a while, but a "drought" is no small exaggeration. During those slow years there was a huge market for used figures, since they were no longer availible in retail stores. Which proves my point about the loyalty of fans, to the real fans, it never died. Just because it died for you, doesn't mean it died for the rest of us.

As for you saying a few references here and there mean nothing, and Terminator and Rambo also recieving similar treatment. You obviously missed the whole concept of "Pop Culture", Star Wars, Rambo, and Terminator, are all big parts in American popular culture. Just about everyone knows the phrase "Come with me if you want to live!" or "Hasta la vista baby", even if they haven't seen the Terminator films. In America, from '77 till present, just about everyone knew/knows the phrase "May the force be with you!"

Again, it doesn't matter whether or not you consider these things to mean anything or not, because the fact of the matter is, these things are deeply ingrained in American pop culture. In your own little world, maybe not, in the real work, yes.

And yes, Titanic and the Dark Knight were fads, nobody gives a care about Titanic anymore, and nobody other than Batman fans will care much about Dark Knight before long. They are not ingrained into pop culture, Batman most certainly is, but the Dark Knight as a film is not.

Anyway, this whole pointless sidetrack you have taken us on was me making the point that Lucas didn't make the new films for the fans, he made them for the hoards who will treat it as a fad, and that I do not believe they will stand the test of time, as the OOT has. The only reason Lucas was able to resurrect the OT in 1997 was because it wasn't a fan, it had never died, the fans had kept it alive. If it was a fad, there would not have been a market for books or video games based off of it 20 years later. The whole point was, SW still had a huge fan base before the prequels or the SE were released. This site is proof of that! A group of fans who want the original versions, the version they grew up with preserved, shows they were fans before the SE.

negative1 said:

C3PX said:

negative1 said:

if people really cared about artistic integrity and value, they should have all been flops,

every movie should have failed miserably, and all the interest in Star Wars should have died off, instead the exact opposite happened....

 

Exactly. Because people don't care, fans do care though. People will suck up and buy anything, look at all the garbage that gets thrown around shamelessly on TV that people soak up and love.  Why do people suck up all these fads and love them to death for a year or two, then forget about them and loose interest in them entirely?

 

when star wars came out it was a fad, and so were the two sequels,

people forget about  them in the mid 80's after 'return of the jedi',

and continued to forget about them until the late 90's when the SE

versions came out... then they came back, and now are stronger than ever..

 

so , by your criteria, there really were'nt any fans back then either, only now?

A film maker, a writer, a director, anybody with fans has to make a choice: Remain loyal to your fan base, or make something that will be hyped up for a few months or maybe even years before being dropped forever? There are still artists with integrity out there who want to show what they can do and really build something to last, something that the fans can hold on to and be proud of. This does NOT describe the PT by any means. But fans have been holding onto the OT for pushing thirty years now, I have no doubt they will hang onto it for another thirty.

 

honestly, i can't really think of any great movies i've seen in the last 20 years (or longer) that made

we want to be a fan of the series/or think its a classic, the majority of my favorites are from the 70's,

and 80's... its' all mostly rehashes, and reworks or earlier material,

or subpar populist stuff now... yeah, i watch a lot of independant and foreign films too, but none

of them really stands out to me..

 

i agree, we'll never know if the movies that come out now will be remembered down the line..

 

later

-1

 

 

 

 

Boy did you ever COMPLETELY miss the point of what I was saying. And I know very well the history of SW through the eighties and ninties. Star Wars may have been a fad for a lot of people, but my point is it DID HAVE true fans, witnessed by the fact that I and many others, including a lot of members here never forgot about it during that time, hence, true fans. You may have forgotten about it during that time, but a lot of people didn't. That is why Star Wars merchandise continued to be sold all through the early to mid ninties, BEFORE the SE was released. That my friend, is not the definition of a fad.

negative1 said:

 since the final product wasn't said to be in HD,

it wouldn't really matter what the quality/resolution started off as (DVD),

since you wouldn't be able to tell..

later

-1

Who wouldn't be able to tell? Even on my small standard def. TV, the GOUT looks like crap compared to Adywan's nice and crisp Revisited discs. It doesn't have to be in HD to be better quality than the GOUT, the GOUT is absolute garbage. On my friends big widescreen TV, the GOUT is unwatchable, it feel like watching SW on youtube. However, the 04 discs look great on it (color issues aside). I think it is obvious you have never looked at the GOUT much, if you assume nobody would be able to tell the difference between it and a version restored from Ady's color corrected versions.

My biggest fear about this project, beside being a lot of work, would be it ending up looking like OCP's Classic Editions, which had the DVDs, with laserdisc bits taken to cover up the CG, which depending on the brightness of your TV, could look pretty unsightly and glaring.

You can't start with an unaltered GOUT, because the GOUT is too low in quality. The 04 SE is excellent quality, but have added CG, and screwed up colors. Adywan's SW Revisited fixed the color problems, so it would make sense to use it, since a lot of work has already been done.

negative1 said:

if people really cared about artistic integrity and value, they should have all been flops,

every movie should have failed miserably, and all the interest in Star Wars should have died off, instead the exact opposite happened....

Exactly. Because people don't care, fans do care though. People will suck up and buy anything, look at all the garbage that gets thrown around shamelessly on TV that people soak up and love. All the crappy movies that get released every year. My wife was sick earlier this week, and I rented Get Smart for her, because she likes Steve Carell and wanted to see something funny. That was one of the worse movies I have ever seen! Acting was horrible, plot was typical "spy comdey" fare, and not a single joke was laugh worthy. Why should a film like that, while not a super successful film, still be able to make back what was spent to make it? Why should a film like that even deserve a DVD release? Why do people suck up all these fads and love them to death for a year or two, then forget about them and loose interest in them entirely?

People will suck up and eat up anything you throw at them that has an ounce of popularity too it. If other people are doing it, they will do it. Its hip it is cool. But once that fad is over, all that is left are the true fans, the loyal base of people that really care about it and want to hang onto it forever, not just suck up and throw away when they loose interest. The real fans want to show this stuff to their kids and say, "See, how cool is that!" A film maker, a writer, a director, anybody with fans has to make a choice: Remain loyal to your fan base, or make something that will be hyped up for a few months or maybe even years before being dropped forever? There are still artists with integrity out there who want to show what they can do and really build something to last, something that the fans can hold on to and be proud of. This does NOT describe the PT by any means. But fans have been holding onto the OT for pushing thirty years now, I have no doubt they will hang onto it for another thirty.

Whether the PT is part of this is yet to be seen. Movies like the Jaws sequels were popular once too, now most fans of that franchise will tell their friends, "Just check out the first one and forget the sequels, they're nothing to write home about." The sequels are remembered as campy late night TBS fodder. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the prequels eventually find themselves as. "Just watch the original three. That prequel trilogy is nothing to write home about. Watch them if you like, they're kind of fun,  but they are just as campy as can be." 

negative1 said:

???????????????????????????????????????????

 

what does this have to do with windows 7?

 

i don't get it????

LOL, I suppose you wouldn't.

I don't really care about more Star Wars, Lucas had some pretty good story ideas, and always talked about wanting to go off and do his fancy little films once he was done with SW. Of course you can't keep churing out good movies in a series forever, but that is kind of a cop out excuse for the prequels sucking so much. Everyone always says that they could have never been as good as the originals and that their biggest problem was too high of expectations. But the fact of the matter is that they just simply sucked. They were terrible movies, and could have been done much better. I am pretty forgiving when it comes to inferior sequels, I love all the Apes movies, just not as much as the first one (and I hate the remake), I really enjoyed the James Bond movies, sometimes they got pretty retarded, but I was willing to forgive some flaws. Star Trek is another series I have been very tolerant towards, some of the movies I really hated, but I still gave it the benefit of the doubt and went back to the theater to see the next one, I knew it might not be the best ST had to offer, but I was willing to over look that for another adventure in the ST universe, a place I had become rather fond of. I cannot say this is the case with SW. The SW universe was my favorite universe in the universe, I went to the theater in 1999 knowing that whatever I saw on the screen was not going to be anywhere near as good as what I have seen already, but as a guy who spend years soaking up the EU and making my own stories in that universe, I didn't care, another journey into that universe on the big screen was going to be amazing, no matter what! Even with that mindset, TPM was very disappointing. But I still gave it the benefit of the doubt and decided to over look it, and I actually still enjoy TPM, it is by far my favorite prequel, and the only one I have ever seen more than a couple of times.

Anyway, what I am saying is that I was more than willing to forgive inferior prequels, but once we got down to AOTC, it was such a horrible awful movie, it was insulting to watch. So much more could have been done with it. The "come on guys, no series can go on for ever without loosing its magic" just isn't going to cut it. AOTC and ROTS were simple awful films that needed some love and care put into their making that just wasn't there. Instead they feel like an inferior product thrown on the shelves (or in this case cinemas) as quickly as possible to pull in some cash.

Lucas should have finished wit Star Wars after ROTJ, and went on to do more things. Things that he could have really put his heart into, as he did with the first Star Wars, instead of rehashing something he was sick and tired of just because he felt some sort of obligation (and obviously realized it would bring him more money than anyone should ever dream of having).

-1, I find it funny that you say "nobody ever calls Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi ground breaking, because since they first came out I have heard plenty of people using that exact phrase to describe them. They were both very much ground breaking.

And as for you saying, "thats how i would feel too, and so would most people....(otherwise, they'd just be

lying about it).."

Sorry to see you have such a shallow and pessemistic view on creativity. It doesn't matter how much money you have, why should that make your standards drop? If you have something you want to make, do it right. You have no excuse not to, especially if you are literally drowning in money fans of that series have given to you already. When you have such a loyal fanbase, you should care what they think, after all, if it were not for them you never would have made it that far.

negative1 said:

C3PX said:

-1, if I could use two words to describe you, it would be "yes-man". You seem to be of the "bend over and take it philosophy". Not that there is anything wrong with that, from what I understands it makes life a hell of a lot easier.

easier ? no its the exact opposite....

It is easier my friend, because rather than struggling and resisting, you simply bend over, relax, and wait for them to insert their penis into your anal cavity. When you stuggle and resist, and tighten up your muscles, it hurts a lot more.

Vaderisnothayden said:

So is a blu-ray edition of the original versions impossible? 

Most certianly not. There are plenty of prints lying around. Even if the original masters have been cut up and destroyed forever, the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the films are unchanged from the originals to the SE, in other words, most of the film is already restored in its original state with the 1997 versions.

No doubt Lucas as access to plenty of decent copies of these films that could be used to restore the films. Even negative 1 got his hands on some pretty decent 35mm reels of the films and posted lots of scans from them here, they don't look to bad. In the hands of a professional company, these films could be restored in quality even higher than blu-ray with relatively little effort. A certian person's stubborness is all that keeps these from us, and that really sucks.

You really have a hard times with matters of opinion and personal preference, don't you -1?

Hmm, although I am saddened that the site is basically dead, I am now kind of hoping it doesn't get relaunched. The word "relaunched" makes me think of design change, and over the years I have grown rather fond of the way it is, and would not like to see that change. I am also not sure I'd like to see J.J.'s trek plastered all over that site, I think that is better off at its own site where it is now.

Ah, its an old article. That explains it. Really? ST.com is dead? That is really sad. Disappointing to see the kind of treatment something that was once so well respected gets. "All Good Things..."

No, you, or who you heard this from, are getting things mixed up. It was never actually intended that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father, it was that in the original script, Darth Vader told Luke that Obi-Wan killed his father. Right before the scene was filmed, they told Mark Hamil that regardless of what the script says, or what David Prowse is saying, what you are hearing is "Luke, I am your father." Then later when James Earl Jones recorded Darth's lines, they had him say the actual words that are heard in the film.

The only reason they did this was to avoid any spoilers leaking since so many of the scripts would be floating around. That is why they didn't even tell Mark until right before he filmed it. That way if anything leak, it would be misinformation.

Also I am pretty sure Lucas was the one to come up with the "I am your father idea", not Kershner.

J.J. said before that Shatner would not be in it, because he could not find a way around the fact that Kirk is already dead, and he felt it important to keep the continuity. So I am surprised to now hear that this has changed, kind of disappointing too, not that I don't want to see Shatner, but I would rather have continuity remain intact to some degree. And he is a very round pudgy man these days, while that is what has become of the actor William Shatner, I'd rather not see that be what becomes of Capt. James T. Kirk as well.

I know Shatner put up quite a melodramatic fuss at his not being in the film, maybe he kept whinning and they caved.

Vaderisnothayden said:

But do we really know for sure that Lucas didn't originally intend Anakin to be Darth Vader? I mean, I've long theorized that he invented that bit some time after he made the first film, but I don't know.

Yeah, because in some of the early drafts Anakin and Darth Vader are different characters. There is alot of evidence to show that Lucas did not originally intend Anakin to be Darth Vader, and certianly didn't intend for Leia to be Luke's sister. All this was made up as he went along. One of the members here has written a great book called The Secret History of Star Wars, it is a great book that does some impressively extensive research into the history of the franchise that is usually ignored or over looked by most other "Making of"s. It is definitely worth reading. He used to provide a free PDF version of the book on his website, but since he is actually getting it published now, he has taken it down. Once the hard copy is availible, it will definitely be worth dishing out the money for. It was too good of a book to spend its life as nothing more than a pdf ebook. This book would really give you a lot of this information you seem really interested in.

negative1 said:

 once again, check out the progress in the uprez to HD thread,

mentioned in my signature.. could be getting interesting soon..

 

later

-1

Haha, I remember a similar conversation taking place, where you told me to check the progress on the 35mm conversion that could be getting interesting. I am guessing since you have moved on to "uprezing" the GOUT, that that particular project is now longer making progess or remaining interesting. I would not wish this to be the case, but have always expected it would. At any rate, you can never really truely "uprez" something. When the detail simply isn't there, it simply isn't there. There is no way to add lost detail back into the picture, only to smooth over and blur the roughness of the low res picture. No thanks.

As for the VHS tapes of Star Wars being hard to find, NO! Of course they weren't! The VHS release received more than enough rereleasing. It has nothing to do with products wearing out, it has to do with $$$$. You can't possibly make a case for the mass rereleasing of SW on DVD. Sure, if they run out of the product, they should just throw more into production. The only reason they go through the trouble of repackaging it so it suddenly looks like something different and new, and will encourage those completists to rebuy what they already own just for the sake of a freaking change of cover art. It is sickening. Lots of studios do this with DVDs, double dipping galore, but in most cases, they at least add some new content to encourage people to rebuy.

Oh, and to defend the "One Last Time" slogan of the THX release, up until the 2006 release, that actually was the very last time the originals were released. So, they were being pretty honest about it, we didn't know the movies only had two years left before going to hell and ruining SW by splitting the fan base down the middle. Crazy stuff, but Lucas actually wanted that to be the last time. Ironically, since the DVDs are actually from the LDs of the "One Last Time" faces/THX set, that still sort of was the last time.

-1, if I could use two words to describe you, it would be "yes-man". You seem to be of the "bend over and take it philosophy". Not that there is anything wrong with that, from what I understands it makes life a hell of a lot easier.

I agree with Ferris, this should be a SP 3. Not because MS doesn't have the right to release a new OS, of course they do, but Vista has only been out for two years now (really? that long?) And it is still a piece of shit. Yes, as you said Negative 1, just don't by it, nobody is forcing you too... er, sort of. Let's take a look back to the past when Vista first came out, support for XP was dropped, so no new updates, newer programs came out that were designed and intended for use only on Vista. In the case of Halo 2 for the PC, it was released as a Windows Vista only, and while XP would have been more that able to run it, they set it up so that it would not allow installation on any version prior to Vista, not sure how many other programs did that. So, while they weren't forcing you at gun point to upgrade to Vista, they were certianly trying to make things as complicated as possible for those who did not.

It sucks for everyone who dished out the cash to upgrade, only to need to do it again a few years later, while the upgrade they did pay for already has been nothing but a buggy pain in the ass from the getgo.

I didn't say he didn't beat the system, I said that after the system he became worse than what he was afraid the system would make of him.

He wanted to be a free film maker to go about and do the films he wanted, yet he got stuck doing a single franchise and not the films he himself claimed he wanted to be free to do. He said Star Wars was his means to become free to do those films, but instead he became entangled by Star Wars and grew old never having done those films he use to want so badly to do.

I still think if young George could meet old George and see what he has accomplished, he'd be more than a little disappointed. He went from being a young film maker with a vision, to an old fat man with shit loads of money.

"Classics" are not choosen by personal preference. If I wanted to go around saying, "Charles Dicken's A Christmas Carol is not a classic to me." It would not make it any less a classic.

No, just the opposite actually. Since originally Anakin actually was murdered by Obi-Wan's pupil Darth Vader. At this point Anakin was not a Jedi turned bad who was going around breaking rules, he was a good guy who was murdered by a bad guy, there is no reason to believe he had broken any rules by having a son.

It has nothing to do with his resolve against the originals, and it has everything to do with the fact that they want to release an OT boxed set and a PT boxed set. The PT DVDs each have nicely done two-disc sets, but the OT only ever had a single bonus disc made to share between them, unless you count the lame nonanamorphic "Bonus" discs featuring the GOUT.

So, rather than make a bonus disc for each movie, or make two more bonus discs to go along with the Empire of Dreams disc in order to make the PT and OT boxed sets equally yoked, it is just easier to go with the GOUT bonus disc again. Now we have two trilogy box sets, six discs each, and the same price can fairly be charged for each of them. You can imagine the outrage if the PT set had six discs and the OT set only four.

Yes, my feeling is that Lucas was once a brilliant man, corrupted by power. He fought the system, and won, then became worse than the system.

ROTS and the prequels had a lot of silly things going on with the Jedi. I think Lucas was going more for a celibate monk sort of thing. They should have no possessions beyond their lightsabers and cloaks, which is why Anakin gives Artoo to Padme, right? I think that was mentioned in the ROTS novelization. This is also an idea given by Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars novelization and in the radio plays, that Jedi don't need money or possesions, they give it all up in order not to be bound by materialism. Also you can't see your family, which is why Anakin is never allowed to go see his mother over all those years.

The PT kind of turned the Jedi into jerks in some ways, they go around, take kids from their parents and never let them see them again, indoctrinating them and training them. They are not allowed to love, not allowed to be bonded with their family. Total disconnect from everything. I really like the Jedi as dipicted in the Tales of the Jedi comics much more than the PT monastic order.

Anyway, that is what Yoda was talking about, not to be bound emotionally. Another part of their philosophy is moving onto another plain of existance, therefore death should not be mourned, because while they are lost to us, they are not gone completely, they just went into another room as it were, where we can no longer see or be with them.