Burbin

I wouldn’t want to gut such a pivotal moment in TLJ. The scene would barely make sense without that revelation, it’s such a key moment that shows how unprepared Rey was to face Snoke, and that things aren’t going to go the way she thinks. And even if you remove the line the rest of Snoke’s dialogue still implies he knows exactly what’s going on, so it doesn’t really help TRoS’s case, if anything it heightens the question of whether Snoke knew of the dyad.

It’s clearly shown Snoke is extremely powerful in TLJ, he mops the floor with Rey and effortlessly probes her mind. There’s no need to ‘explain’ how he can do it without dying. The effort would kill Rey, it wouldn’t kill Snoke. And as I said, bridging minds and Force projection seem like two completely different powers. Kylo’s “the effort would kill you” simply foreshadows that extreme uses of the Force drain your life energy. Snoke was probably more powerful than Luke, but even if not it’s easy to assume Force projection might take a higher strain than a bridge of minds.

The dyad is barely explained, Kylo describes it as “two that are one”, and Palpy says it’s “the life force of your bond” and “a power like life itself”. So TRoS doesn’t even directly state that being a ‘dyad’ means having force Skype calls and teleporting objects. Kylo says the power of their dyad will allow them to kill Palpatine and take the throne, which wouldn’t make sense if all there is to it is the mind connection stuff.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

It’s still clearly something that you would have to be born with. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the brotherly bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan be considered a dyad? Or between any Jedi/Sith pairing in general?

EDIT: Already know what your response is. Yes, Snoke bridging minds might cause the dyad to form, but then why hasn’t that been done before? It’s just a massive plot hole across the saga. Furthermore, Kylo says that the effort to project like that would kill. If it kills Luke, then why doesn’t it kill Snoke? This suggests that he is utilizing something that has always been present.

It can just be explained away as the ‘dyad’ being a rare occurrence in the Force, “unseen for generations”. Doesn’t mean other people’s bonds aren’t as strong, just that something about Kylo and Rey and their relationship ‘triggers’ a dyad to form between them. It’s not necessarily just Snoke’s meddling that forms the dyad, though it unmistakingly makes their relationship grow. In that way you could say the ‘dyad’ begins to form from the moment they meet. I don’t think it’s a plot hole to introduce new Force concepts, the Force shouldn’t be limited to what we’ve seen before. Snoke’s mind bridge and Luke’s Force projection were two different things, and in that sense the dyad is it’s own new concept aswell.

Hal 9000 said:

Snoke sure seemed to be a mere meat puppet in a cursory reading of TROS, IMHO. He’s every voice in Kylo’s head and essentially just Palpatine with a paper mask. And if that’s so, it makes little sense that Snoke seemed acutely aware of Rey and Kylo’s connection and Palpatine seems surprised by their dyad-ness. Unless the dyad thing was just like, “Oh, well I didn’t know it was THAT far.”

That’s why I feel it’d be better to avoid such confusions and let them be two distinct characters.

Palpatine clearly says “the life force of your bond… a dyad in the Force” so it’s not something they were born with, but a connection that grows within them. So it doesn’t contradict Rey being a nobody, if anything it would strenghten that point if a nobody could develop such strong connection in the Force. And I also don’t see Snoke bridging their minds as a contradiction, but rather a step towards such a strong connection developing. Maybe it would help if Kylo said “What Palpatine doesn’t know is we’ve become a dyad in the Force, two that are one”.

As for the “every voice” line, I get that it doesn’t have to be litteral, that you can read it as hyperbole from Palpatine’s side. But I’m looking at it from the angle of the average viewer who either hasn’t seen the movie, or just hasn’t been dissecting it for months, and hasn’t read the expanded material. Palpatine says he has been every voice he has ever heard, while mimicking Snoke’s voice, it’s hard to read that as anything other than literal, that when Snoke talked it was actually Palpatine talking. If the line was only delivered in Palpatine’s voice it would be fine, as he could just be refering to the fact that he created Snoke, and Snoke turned Ben and became his Master. But the fact they make him speak in Snoke’s voice just makes it all confusing, when I saw the film in theaters I certainly thought they were saying Snoke was Palpatine all along.

jarbear said:

I learned some time ago, with this movie, and all the sequel movies honestly, is to watch them with this viewpoint:

Makes sense when you don’t think about it.

They don’t care about what came before it or use logic, so why should we. Lol.

I feel TLJ is the opposite: doesn’t make sense unless you think about it. Setting aside their difference in tone and structure I think TFA & TLJ work pretty well as two chapters of the same story, two sides of the same coin. And with Hal’s Restructured & Legendary edits the gap is brought even closer. It’s really made me appreciate the strengths of each movie and the overarching story they tell.

For me TRoS really stands as the black sheep of the trilogy. Though I believe there’s still some good in it, it’s more machine than man, twisted and evil.

I just finished downloading the new version and checked out the new changes. Thankfully the new Tarkin clips look far better to my eyes, and the other changes are pretty seamless too. One thing I caught though is that the line “We find Saw. We find your father” is still present on all the subtitles. But other than that this is awesome to see, and a great upgrade to V1 😄

My reasoning for putting the line “I made Snoke” over the shot of the Sith machinery was precisely to cut on the dead space between it and “The first order was just the begging”, connecting the two. It could probably be tightened and better paced by someone that knows proper editing.

I dunno, to me that single line is even more damaging to the plot of the previous movies than making Rey a Palpatine. Blurring the line between Snoke and Palpatine makes the struggles in VII & VIII feel like a joke. The whole fight against the First Order, and Kylo freeing himself from Snoke’s grasp. It all just feels like nothing (that + the Snoke pickle jar, it’s like they wanted it to feel like a joke). All of that just to insert a James Earl Jones cameo. If they’re kept as separate entities, at least they’d each be a separate threat that is dealt with in each movie.

Fair enough.

I’d agree it’s a nice read of the character, that he inadvertantly becomes a true Vader-like figure by letting go of his childish obsession with Vader. Wich would play nicely with Palpatine’s manipulating, telling him he can become even greater than Vader. Prompting him to rebuild his mask as he’s earned it.

As for removing the line, the nice thing is this change doesn’t directly contradict canon, it can remain as expanded material such as the Order 66 chip or Boba escaping the Sarlaac. But removing it helps the flow of the story in the movie trilogy. It’s similar to stuff like not having Obi-wan address R2 in the prequels.

Most of the expanded stuff that’s come out only further does a disservice and draws episode IX further apart from VIII. Such as turning Snoke into a ‘test’, removing Kylo’s agency in overturning his Master.

Those are fair points, though I’d argue the Kylo in TLJ embodies the message of “let the past die”. He doesn’t shed his persona, but he clearly takes it in his own path and separates himself from Vader, it’s made clear that him becoming “a new Vader” was Snoke’s ambition, and he ends up killing Snoke and renouncing that path. Learning Rey comes from nowhere further makes him realize his “legacy” didn’t define who he was. So by the end of TLJ it’s pretty clear that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible. He “kills” his past, incuding his obsession with Vader.

That obsession could also explain his percieved “connection” to Vader’s charred helmet. He saw power where there was none, he worshiped the idea of Darth Vader the Sith Lord, while ingnoring the true man that was his grandfather. Much like how our heroes only thought about Luke as the Jedi Master of legend who would solve everything. Both ‘myths’ are deconstructed in TLJ.

I don’t know what the official canon explanations (retcons within retcons) are, whether Snoke was a literal puppet or if Kylo could literally hear Vader’s voice guiding him, but I think that’s how the line reads in this movie. It’s misleading at best, and a retcon at worst.

CaptainFaraday said:

When Kylo would ask the Vader helmet for guidance in TFA, it was clearly meant to be more of a personal reflection and internally meditative sort of thing, not him literally being spoken to by Darth Vader’s actual voice.

To me Kylo’s relationship with Vader in TFA seemed exactly like this. A fanatical worship of Vader’s legacy, which he feels he must carry on (“I will finish what you started”). In TLJ he gives up this quest all together, because as Snoke tells him, he’ll never live up to Vader. So he destroys his mask and sets out to forge his own legacy. In this movie he finds Vader’s former Master, who tells him he can not just live up to Vader’s legacy, but surpass it (“become what your grandfather Vader could not”). So he picks up that quest again, reforging his mask and placing Vader’s helmet by his side again.

Not the most exciting overarching story after TLJ, but it can at least work if you don’t imply that 1.- Palpatine was also talking to him as ‘Vader’ (which leads him nowhere, as he gives up on that quest) and 2.- Palpatine was also talking to him as ‘Snoke’ (the man who litteraly tells him he’s no Vader). It’s honestly baffling how obsessed this movie is in making Palpatine be directly involved in everything from the previous movies. Making Palpatine’s relation on Kylo less direct (he was the Master of Vader, who molded his whole Kylo Ren persona. He was involved in some way with the creation of the First Order he commands, and he “made” his former Master) works far better.

The line could still be read as meaning he trained Snoke and made him who he is, while also hinting that it may be more literal.

I’m sure this point has probably been discussed before, but what do you guys think of this edit?

https://vimeo.com/512114042
pw:fanedit

I delayed the “my boy” line to slow the pace of Palpatine’s revelation, and give it more weight. Having the line “I made Snoke” during the reveal of the twisted technology of the Sith Cultists gives a more subtle context to Snoke’s origin. It takes on the subtle connection that maybe Snoke was created using similar devices (without showing a jar full of Snokes).

Personally I hate the line “I have been every voice…” because it’s not only a dumb excuse to hear Vader’s voice for nostalgia/fanservice, but it also takes away all agency from Snoke, and thus completely undermines the struggles of the previous two movies, where Snoke stood as the big evil. I think it’s fine to imply Snoke was a manufactured being, just for the sake of closure to Snoke’s mysterious ‘origins’ that were never dealt with in the previous movies (and that’s also something The Mandalorian seems to be expanding), but he should be kept as his own character.

If Palpatine only says “I made Snoke… the First Order was just the beggining” we get enough to connect things without raising even more questions, such as whether Snoke was even a real character or just a puppet. Now it could even be seen as Palpatine taking too much credit, where he might have had something to do with Snoke’s origins, but Snoke built his own Empire on his own, and found and turned Ben Solo on his own, and the events in TFA and TLJ are not painted in a lesser context. Unless you read expanded material which this change wouldn’t contradict.

Furthermore the idea of Palpatine “altering” his voice is really odd and it’s not something we ever see again, and the implication that he talked to Kylo using Vader’s voice all this time is a pretty dumb and unnecessary “explanation” for Kylo’s obsession with Vader in TFA, it takes away from Kylo’s character and it further takes away from Snoke being the one who turned him to the dark.

Here’s the haircut by jonh for those who missed it:

jonh said:

Hello! These are the shots in which it has been possible for me to change Luke’s hair, there are other shots in which it is impossible: a thousand generations … it is impossible, for me at least.
I have also lost two kilos of weight to Luke

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wxCRU-kV6rx8nPENzKqWPD3lBv0a2c4F/view?usp=sharing

I don’t think there’s quality loss on my end. Here’s the original source I used from 21C Peasant:

21C Peasant said:

This is my latest update to those shots for anyone interested.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ljyIlZ1PLpPmhSpuPNktDqtBWP2vZ_8O/view?usp=sharing

I’ve done an export in .mov format, hope it works for people having trouble with the .avi
https://www.mediafire.com/file/gl5v2xgt5fwulor/Fortress_.mov/file

Hal 9000 said:

Just to be sure, Burbin, are the newer color corrected deepfake clips meant to blend (mid-shot even) with the regular BluRay? Or to correspond with some global color correction applied to the source first?

Also, unrelated to anything else, where’s your username come from?

Lol it’s a nickname I’ve had since I was a kid, though I do enjoy a good whiskey.

I made the clips using your edit as the base and masking the deepfake footage over it, however exporting the render seems to change the colors somewhat, de default color settings made the whole thing green for some reason, in the newer clips I just altered the render settings and got a closer resemblance to the original footage. Same thing happened with the Vader’s Castle shot I shared on Ascendant btw, giving it a less red/more orange tint, couldn’t fix it changing the settings, but I like the look.

jarbear said:

For the sake of messing around with the “to eadu scene!” with the latest changes, I want to share what RogueLeader did. The objective between the alteration of this scene does a couple of things:

1.) Jynn is not just here for the ride anymore, but is driving the plot now
2.) Jynn’s speech now has actual purpose

Personally I prefer the way it plays out originally, Cassian’s main objective is to “authenticate the story and then if possible find [Galen Erso]”. They believe he is critical to the development of this weapon, which plays into the orders to kill him. And on that note, I wouldn’t want to lose Draven’s reaction to “Jedah Destroyed”, it gives his orders more motivation (killing Galen, commanding a direct assault on Eadu). He feels “a decision needed to be made”.

Those cut lines are also where Cassian autheticates the story, “Weapon Confirmed. Jedah Destroyed”. He then asks if he proceeds with the secondary objective after learning Galen is on Eadu. Jynn’s “speech” is not meant to rally them to go to Eadu, she’s telling them her father is not the evil imperial they believe, it has a purpose as it is what makes Cassian hesitate on following his orders. The Rebels don’t know that Galen is working against the Empire, and neither does Cassian, since the message was destroyed on Jedah, he has to trust Jynn’s word.

I think if this change was merged with the “secret mission” change, it would muddle the motivations of everyone. The progression in the story makes more sense if “finding Galen” is given some importance from the beggining.

I really wish there was any footage of Kylo arriving/roaming around the Death Star before the confrontation. The first time I saw the film I thought Kylo was either part of Rey’s vision or in another Force connection thing when he suddenly picks up the Wayfinder.

Hal 9000 said:

Nevermind, here’s a 5.1 clip to preview. https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ovgZ_BGHBKpCq4mpcpXUuWAqMR8Xc8i/view?usp=drivesdk

That’s really cool to see!

Movies Remastered said:

New update to Rey’s crackling Saber scene

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1408265/action/topic#1408265

Is it worked on from Kewlfish’s work or was it done from scratch?

Here’s my clip of Vader’s Castle with dimmed lights
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yqc05kidwmuzfkk/Fortress.avi

I agree, the footage looks very obvious to me too. Also the original quick cut kinda fits the moment, since Rey’s training is cut short & she heads back without finishing the course.

I just think it’s placement and delivery feel off. It just feels like exposition that was adr’d in for anyone that was checking his phone during the rebel briefing scene. Doesn’t feel like the scene was shot with that piece of dialogue in mind and so it would flow better without it. And it would also flow better into the following scene, only having Cassian address Saw until here -
“What’s with the Destroyer?”
“It’s because of your old friend, Saw Guerrera.”

I gave it a shot to turn off the lights
https://vimeo.com/508165510

Since you’re planning on adding Vader’s Castle front and center, would you reconsider name dropping Mustafar in the opening crawl? It just feels off considering how little relevance it has in the movie, compared to previous named planets - Hoth in TESB, Tatooine in RotJ, Naboo in TPM & Jakku in TFA.

If we’re removing the first conversation then it would make sense to keep the information from the audience all the way so that we find out alongside Jyn. Either have those orders looming over as we go along the adventure, or keep it as a mystery as Cassian becomes more and more agitated until Chirrut tells Jyn that he senses he’s about to kill. I’m fine with it either way.

For the scene en route to Eadu maybe you could switch Draven’s dialogue around so that he says: “Tell him to proceed with haste and keep to the plan, tell him my orders still stand”. That way there’s emphasis on these mysterious orders but we don’t find out what they are yet.
Here’s a crude version of how it could play out:
https://vimeo.com/507707620

The chorus in this rendition of DotF totally reminds me of the moment Luke snaps against Vader in RotJ. Which has the same effect of giving the scene a feeling of sadness and defeat as the hero gives in to the dark side.