I don’t see how saying there were rumors that Palpatine wanted to cheat death means everyone in the OT knew he was a Sith.
Although people are ok with it and come up with “interpretations” or “what he meant was …”
Isn’t that essentially excusing people or bad things/thinsg that don’t make sense.
It’s concerning we are getting to the point that its “ok” to have lines that make no sense in context to anything but its “ok” since we excuse it and make interpretations of things.
I would never “excuse” the terrible things in TRoS, but out of everything the movie does badly I just honestly don’t see any issue with that particular line, in context I don’t see how it “makes no sense”. In fact I’d say you’re the one making an oddly literal “interpretation” of a line that is meant to have a more broad and figurative/symbolic meaning. Do you honestly think Luke is saying that there are a thousand generations of Jedi possesing/living inside Rey’s body? When he says “because she saw your spirit, your heart”, do you think he meant Leia used a Force X-ray power to stare at Rey’s beating heart? There’s nothing in the movie to indicate that Luke was speaking literally. It’s quite the opposite, as in the climax, where the Jedi spirits communicate with Rey, it’s clearly shown to be an outward connection (as she looks far into the vastness of the stars), in complete contrast with Palpatine’s “my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me”.
Also, much like how Luke wanted the Jedi to die with him in TLJ, now he tells Rey that the Jedi live on with her. It stands in line with his sentiment at the Battle of Crait: Because of Rey, Luke was not ‘The Last Jedi’, and so the Jedi didn’t end with his sacrifice.
“We will always be with you” sounds so…personal. It sounds like it just refers to Luke and Leia.
“A thousand generations live in you” better helps to foreshadow the scope of what’s to come.
Exactly, if this line was changed it would seem to setup for Luke and Leia to show up on Exegol, instead of all the jedi (and the phantom four).
I think “a thousand generations live in you” works far better as setup for Rey hearing the voices of past Jedi, having them “stand behind” her (as Qui-Gon says), and Rey saying she’s “all the Jedi”.
Luke did not stay on the island simply out of fear or shame. He believed that he was doing what’s best for the galaxy. All the teachings he gives to Rey serve to explain this reasoning. However, fear and shame had a hand in leading him to those conclusions. His fear of loss led him to cement Ben’s turn to the dark, his fear of failure led him to renounce the Jedi.
But the reason he stayed on the island and refused to fight was much deeper than simple fear. I would propose changing the line to “It was fear that led me here”. I think that under the context of their conversation this subtle change would help avoid any apparent misrepresentation or oversimplification of TLJ’s story.
Beyond the “taking one last look” moment the film treats 3PO’s memory wipe as a joke, probably because it’s not permanent and so it’s not meant to be taken too seriously. But if he didn’t get his memory back it would feel even more jarring/disrespectful how the other characters don’t seem to care much about it and how the film constantly makes a joke out of it.
I agree we should focus on what works better for the movie edit. In the original footage the time of day never seems to change so it feels like she only spends a couple of hours at most on Ach-to. There’s no footage to imply she spends the night there, and it’s really hard to pass day for night. So the early-morning to sunrise really seems like the best approach.
To show how much I love y’all:
I really like the ‘early morning’ aesthetic. It’s not as drastic, and more passable, than trying to make it look like night, and we do get that gradual progression of daylight setting in that implies the passage of time, not to mention it’s more visually pleasing.
I don’t think Luke needs to elaborate on “Some things are stronger than blood.” He’s basically telling Rey her lineage doesn’t define who she is. I think it’s fine to let it have some nuance rather than spell things out.
Also I think it’s Peon the Grate…
I meant the shot of Kylo holding the wayfinder where MR added the fortress in the background behind some trees.
I forgot to bring it up way back, but didn’t MR’s shot of Vader’s Fortress in the background still have the ‘lights’ on?
Sorry, should have been more clear. You said:
whereas in the actual films the dyad was formed because Rey and Kylo Ren were the respective grandchildren of two separate Force-sensitives.
which is not the canon answer anywhere, mostly because it makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, maybe you can interpret that from the movie, but it isn’t suggested at all.
Why else would Kylo point that out, more specifically right before he reveals he and Rey are part of a dyad?
He’s pointing out, after revealing her lineage, that they have a right to the Sith Throne because they’re the offspring of Vader and the Emperor. The dyad exposition is just wedged between those lines.
Holy shit guys:
"That really helped us in thinking about Rey and Kylo Ren, which is to say that we wanted to elaborate on the idea that Snoke bridged their minds in ‘The Last Jedi.’ But what we wanted to say is that there’s something deeper there, and leave it to debate about at which point they became this dyad in the Force, where they were really two, or were they one, whether that was a mistake that Palpatine made by bridging them and therefore creating this thing. But regardless, their relationship is extremely interesting and complicated, and it was one of the things that J.J. and I loved about ‘The Last Jedi’ that we luckily inherited and could build.”
Straight from the horse’s mouth (Chris Terrio).
Seems I was right that the ‘mind brigde’ and the ‘dyad’ are supposed to be two different things, but more importatly, seems we were right that not even they had any idea what they were trying to do, leaving all major plot points up “to debate” lol.
Also sherlockpotter’s clip sounds pretty seamless to me too.
Yeah, I don’t think changing the dyad line is going to work. Neither instance of Kylo Ren (masked) saying “become” fit the sentence.
If splicing lines doesn’t yeld good results, maybe a sound-alike could record part of of the sentence like the “you were right” line?
It was I who bridged your minds suggested changing that line to “we’ve become a dyad in the force”. I think it would help tie TLJ and TRoS without either undermining the other. The ‘dyad’ concept is left pretty ambiguous, but to me it seems to be analog to Kylo and Rey’s growing relationship (“The life force of your bond” as Palpatine puts it). Even if that’s not the ‘official explanation’, we could lean to that concept and make it so that the ‘dyad’ is something that forms between them, so to speak, sometime during or after TLJ. That way TLJ can keep it’s consistent story, and TRoS can do it’s own thing. And as Hal said it would help explain how Palpatine could be so surprised, if the ‘dyad’ is a new piece on the board.
As for the “what girl?” line in TFA, it never seemed to me like there was anything concretely important about it, it was just Kylo being a pouting teenager. Though it’s open-ended enough that it could be taken at face value or expanded further (much like all of TFA’s ‘mysteries’).
I’ve added some film grain that seems to match the quality of the other footage (but let me know if I should tweak it). Thanks to Burbin for the suggestion - I think it definitely helps to tie everything together! And as a bonus, the color banding doesn’t seem as bad anymore! There’s still a little bit of weird brightness to the right of Leia’s right hand, but that seems to be in the original footage too.
I’ve also gone and made it slightly more blue.
Unless there are any other suggestions, here’s V4, both in context of the scene to make sure it all matches, and as an isolated clip to make inserting it as simple as possible for Hal.
Scene: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zuDJLLg96FG7RyU7b56Fe0OVT6GLdqkf/view?usp=sharing
Clip: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DzaKiOT4X4DKFrPOTqiZpysUfoUDTsT7/view?usp=sharingYou may have to download the video to see the full quality. This is a screenshot of how it should look:
V3: https://i.imgur.com/4xIMw0w.png
V4: https://i.imgur.com/DynQOUH.png
Looks great, the bluer tone matches better too.
Hal, have you considered switching the placement of the medal shot to the first Leia shot? It was suggested earlier and I think it does fit much bettter since in the second shot it jumps from her sitting straight and holding the medal with her right hand to laying down and holidng it with her left hand hand.
EDIT: Oops I didn’t see this is in discussion, here’s a demo of what a simple placement switch from the second Leia shot to the first (using sherlockpotter’s latest version) would look like, just for consideration, though I like Mildly-yellow’s edit aswell:
https://vimeo.com/515515458
Getting away from the overarching storylines discussion, here are my edits for the color corrected Medal Insert shot. If someone wants to take them and enhance them further (such as by adding in a rain effect), of if they have other suggestions for them, that would be amazing.
The one thing that sticks out to me is the lack of grain/noise in the added bloom. I think that would really help blend it with the footage.
Are you suggesting that character development for Kylo is only recognized when he permanently kills something? Because the way I understand it, you recognize character development by actions, not the extraneous circumstances surrounding them. Especially if they only reveal themselves later on down the line.
I mean, if it was revealed that the guy he killed in TFA was actually a clone of Han Solo’s cousin and his real father is still hanging out somewhere else, I guess you wouldn’t think that affects the scene in TFA or Kylo Ren’s journey at all(?)
I don’t believe bringing up Duel of the Fates is constructive since TRoS is all we have, but you can definitely have a villain be conflicted and still be the main antagonist. And that’s what he was in DotF, he even turned good in some drafts. Kylo’s whole arc in TFA and TLJ was about rising and becoming the villain. And having Kylo as the main villain would’ve definitely raised the personal stakes for our characters, Rey, Leia, Luke etc. Stakes aren’t defined by the ‘power level’ or the range of the villain. Starkiller Base destroying an entire system as opposed to a single planet didn’t make the stakes feel any higher than either Death Star, for example.
If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.
Funnily enough, I actually find this enhances my enjoyment of TLJ rather than harming it. Yes, I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.
With the removal of all the Snoke bodies he could easily be perceived not just as one of many potential host bodies, but as the only host body Palpatine had at his disposal that wasn’t attached to a medical crane arm. This in and of itself is significant enough for the characters to have defeated in the second movie. At least for me.
I’m not saying that moment is harmed because Snoke is no longer the big bad, he wasn’t by the end of TLJ either and whether he was a puppet or not wouldn’t change that. I’m saying it totally negates Kylo’s whole character arc in TLJ if all it amounts to is pulling the chord on a Palpy puppet. If we have some degree of separation between Snoke and Palps at least the story in TLJ is only harmed by bringing in another big bad, instead of it being literally the same one, thus negating the conclusion in the previous movie.
I just checked and it’s there at 1:38:48. Funny thing I noticed, she mentions ‘hyperspace tracking’, which is a nod to TLJ, but also ‘navigational systems’, whick also seems like a nod to TRoS.
Where you see harm to TLJ, I see an enhancement.
Snoke was frequently quoting Palpatine’s style of speaking in the throne room. On the surface this appears to be an either not too subtle homage, or even what one considers lazy writing. At best, you might consider it a deliberate representation of the idea that cycles of villainous methods of manipulation repeat themselves.
And yet with the added context of TROS and its revelations about Snoke’s connection to Palpatine, this subtle detail from TLJ goes from being perceived as lazy writing to being a deliberate hint at a much more overt connection, one that became very obvious to me the moment palpatine’s return was confirmed, even if that wasn’t the author’s intent, it lines up very well. Snoke instead becomes yet another byproduct of Palpatine’s legacy, a front line soldier designed to pave the way for the Emperor’s return and trained to operate his agenda while Sheev himself readies the final Order. A tool to take over the Imperial Remnants from within while without putting Palpatine himself (whom is physcially unable to act directly) at signifigant risk. Snoke doesn’t have to be himself a “meat puppet” to accomplish this; the nature of his training can be left ambiguous and up to the viewer’s imagination (though canon has confirmed officially that he does have a mind of his own, if it’s any comfort to you).
This means Snoke dying in TLJ was the right choice, because he was always intended as a disposable ally to pave the way for something greater. The TLJ novel implies that he simply showed up one day and swept into the First Order and took them over, either through treachery or perhaps even by force. This makes a lot of sense when in the lore, Rae Sloane took over the Imperial Remnants and disappeared into the Unknown Regions on her own, disconnected from Palpatine’s intended agenda. Snoke then becomes the perfect means to take these assets back and steer the plan back on course. This makes Snoke a logical extention of how Palpatine used Dooku decades earlier, as a disopsable minion meant to pave the way for the real prize… a dark sided member of the preciously powerful Skywalker leniage. Palpatine uses a variation of his modus operandi because, of course he would. It worked near perfectly before during the Clone Wars, so why not try it again? Only this time keep completely out of sight until your power is absolutely secure. It makes perfectly logical sense when you take the ENTIRE saga into account (and not just JJ’s heavy bias towards the OT), and fits much better than the authors themselves may have intended because of this. Snoke leads the First Order, a front line attack force meant to weaken and destroy the Republic, effectively taking revenge on one Skywalker (Leia), while Palpatine targets and manipulates Ben from within to target the Jedi, getting his revenge on Luke. Snoke and Palpatine then share a psuedo Master/Apprentice relationship because of this, even though Snoke himself is not officially a Sith (something he shouldn’t be when he’s just an artifical being meant more as a tool to be used).
It is possible for TLJ and TROS to be internally consistent if you look beyond your own internal bias and see how others can interpret the material. It’s not even that hard of a thing to do. Just because it isn’t necessarily “deliberate” doesn’t mean a capable author can’t flesh out the lore this way in the future.
Sadly, we can only do so much with this cut without having new material to fill. A better explanation for Palpatine’s “son” within the film itself would be a great touch, but not one that I think we could do easily or tastefully, and ultimately a less important point than people might think.
I mostly agree with this interpretation of events, which binds TLJ & TRoS (from a plot/lore perspective at least), and I do want them to bind as neatly as possible. But as you note this interpretation doesn’t involve Snoke being directly controlled by Palpatine like a puppet. That’s my main issue with that line, that to the average layman viewer it could imply Palpatine was Snoke, or was directly controlling Snoke. It’s implicit in the line, though it could be interpreted in a number of ways, and as you say it was clarified that Snoke was his own person. But without that line there wouldn’t be a need for clarification. Saying “I made Snoke… the First Order was just the beginnig” gives us enough to connect everything without raising further questions, and as you say, leaves things ambiguous and up to the viewer’s imagination.
If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.
You believe that removing the bridged minds line is radical, and I feel that removing the voices in your head line is radical.
Ultimately perhaps it’s best not to touch either of them then. But it would really help if others chimed in on this discussion as well.
I don’t think either removal is radical. I just think removing one harms TLJ, and keeping the other harms TLJ. Basically I don’t want TLJ harmed lol. Ignoring and undoing TLJ seem to be TRoS’s #1 pastime after all, and you can’t undo that, but we can diminish the effects of it.
Thought I agree people should chime in to better inform ideas, as this is only my point of view and hearing others helps make more informed decisions after all.
I could most definitely keep the conversation up with you too Burbin, but at this point we’re talking about my own personal fan edit that I haven’t shared with anyone. Unless you are meaning to talk to Hal about his opinion on it? In which case carry on I suppose, because this is his forum post.
Yeah I was just chiming in with my take on the matter since Hal said he’d consider removing the mind bridge line.
Most of my posts have been concerned with my idea to remove the “every voice” bit. To me it seems right in line with other changes Hal has done in his edits. Removing it doesn’t alter or deny the expanded stuff, but it helps improve and streamline the plot in the movie trilogy. Doesn’t seem like a ‘radical’ idea that deviates from the project’s intention. Likewise I wouldn’t remove the ‘dyad’ stuff or the ‘bridged minds’, simply because to me it doesn’t harm or lessen what came before or after.
