There had been talk of “adding lava” to the forest shot to make it blend better, so this seems like the perfect replacement, if having both doesn’t work. I believe Popasketti did the other shot, however, and he doesn’t have a lot of free time.
…we have to assume they CAN’T generate a plan to disable the signal permanently.
…Yes the battle is won by destroying the nav tower, which leaves the fleet stuck on Exegol
Dude, if your argument contradicts itself, I’m gonna assume the plan makes no sense. I’m sorry. Also, again, I tried to explain from the beginning that I was insulting the writing, not you. If that wasn’t clear, then I apologize.
No offense taken! I thought this debate was civil enough, sorry if I seemed insulted or if I offended you in any way.
My argument the movie’s plot doesn’t contradict itself, the plan is to disable the signal temporarily, they execute the plan, but Finn goes a step further and takes it down for good, I don’t see how it’s so confusing. I’ve layed everything out in excruciating detail, and you choose to ignore it all and say “I’m gonna assume it makes no sense”.
For context: My original suggestion was to simplify the Exegol battle by cutting a mere eight(?) words of dialogue, so that the Resistance’s plan going into the fight is to destroy the Navigation Tower. Without the signal from the tower, the Sith Fleet won’t be able to leave Exegol, rendering them harmless.
Burbin is arguing that we need to keep those eight words, because they prove that the goal of the entire battle is not to “permanently” disable the signal, but instead to temporarily disable the signal. Then, in the “just minutes” while the navigation signal is down, the Resistance is going to take advantage of the ships’ lack of “navigation,” and swoop in and blow up all 10,000+ Final Order ships. On a whim, Finn decides to just go rogue and blow up the signal anyway; and, coincidentally, the rest of the (10,000+) ships are all immediately destroyed off camera.
I’m arguing we stick with what the movie gives us, a plan that is laid out in detail, and then carried out through. I’m arguing taking out lines have it make less sense, not more. If you just take out “eight words”, Poe’s POV makes no sense, and if you continue trimming, you’ll be left with nothing.
You’re arguing to change something that by your own admission you don’t understand.
Let’s allow Exegol to make even the slightest amount of sense. Please.
Yes, let’s allow Exegol to make the slightest amount of sense, by keeping the internal logic explicitly layed out by the movie both in the mission briefing, and built upon during the whole Exegol assault, istead of trimming everything away and, with nothing to replace it, being left with just nothing, having to fill in the gaps in your head to adhere to some head cannon that is not explicit anywhere in the film.
Look, Finn seems shocked that the Nav Tower is coming back online. Once it’s actually destroyed, Poe says “Their fleet is stuck here! They’re toast! Come on!” And then he sort of gestures over his shoulder, and he never takes out another SDDSSD. In fact, NO ONE TAkES OUT ANOTHER SDDSSD. They just leave, because what’s the First/Final Order going to do? Follow them? They’ve been trapped. The visuals of the film show that, as soon as the Nav Tower is destroyed, the Rebels start to leave without taking out more ships.
You say no one takes down another ship, even though after Ben and Leia fade away there’s literally a 16 second wide shot of hundreds of ships crashing down, and some more behind Rey as she leaves the Sith Citadel, with no more fuctional enemy ships left in the air as everyone leaves. Just because they don’t continue the montage of ships being taken down doesn’t mean the gazillion of civilian ships just decide to hang out and eat lunch while we focus on the main characters. The visuals of the film show that, as soon as the Nav Tower is destroyed, the civilian fleet continue taking down the rest of the Final Order fleet.
I guess I’m coming at this from a perspective of “What plan makes logical sense?” rather than “What do each of the characters say?”
So, like, we’re agreed that the Nav signal is required for the fleet to leave Exegol, right? In that case, the plan should be to destroy the nav signal, right? Because if their entire plan hinges on disabling the signal temporarily…my god, that’s just utterly stupid, isn’t it? Like, I genuinely can’t wrap my head around that plan. That actually goes beyond stupid; it’s utterly incomprehensible.
The plan is to “hit the fleet while they’re vulnerable on Exegol.” So why would the plan entail only keeping them on Exegol temporarily, when they could keep them on Exegol permanently? I’m talking from a logical, plan-making perspective. Which one makes more sense?
Disabling the signal temporarily is not “utterly stupid” if it’s the only option they have, you’re working on the assumption that they choose to do it temporairly, instead of it being the only choice, which again, it’s done that way to give the mission urgency, we have to assume they CAN’T generate a plan to disable the signal permanently. What IS utterly stupid is to conclude the final battle in the final film of the saga with the unspoken assumption that they just decide to leave a huge fleet of fully operational war machines behind, just because “they’re stuck”, instead of following the laid out plan to take them down. How does that make logical sense? What actually makes sense for them to do?
I’ve gone the past year and a half assuming that the battle was won by destroying the nav tower. Because it has to be. Maybe that’s on me; maybe I gave the film too much credit, letting it have even one sequence that’s somewhat intelligible.
Yes the battle is won by destroying the nav tower, which leaves the fleet stuck on Exegol and allows the civilian fleet to take them out, you were right on the money there. Finn assures victory by bringing the command ship down, otherwise a portion of the fleet might’ve been able to escape the atmosphere once the nav signal was restored.
Seriously, I’m trying to understand this cockamamie plan to “temporarily disable the Nav beacon, and then blow up a seemingly infinite number of ships in the few minutes during which they’re stalled”…and it’s like trying to conceptualize infinity. My brain can’t do it. I’m not being hyperbolic. Swear to god, I can’t comprehend it.
You are being hyperbolic. The plan is very straightforward and is laid out in detail on the mission briefing.
Burbin, I appreciate the defense, I do; but I still can’t get behind it. Finn was all set to leave after disabling the signal - everyone was leaving - and then he was like “Hold up, they’re resetting their systems. The nav signal is coming back online! I have to stop it!” The way he says it definitely implies that they weren’t expecting the nav signal to come back online.
And look, even if you’re right - that Chris and J.J. wrote the entire thing to temporarily stop them from leaving (which is nonsensical), and then the Rebels managed to defeat an extra 7,000 ships off-screen (which is bad filmmaking) - why do we have to prescribe to that? If it’s possible to tie everything up in a nice little “They can’t get off the planet” bow, and cut through all of the obfuscation, why can’t we do that? Even if it’s not 1:1 with the filmmakers’ original intention. That’s sort of the point of this edit, no?
I think I’ve layed out the logic of the Exegol assault pretty thoroughly, and why I can’t get behind the removal of those lines. Yes, Finn acting so surprised is the only bit that might seem contradictory, perhaps the signal on the command ship would come back sooner than expected, since the plan was to hit the tower on the ground, or perhaps Finn gets a last minute idea to take down the ship while they reset their systems.
The thing is everything else points to the stall being temporary, and I don’t see how that’s “nonsensical” but making it permanent makes perfect sense, seems to me like it’s the opposite. Changing this would contradict everything else. The main plan, as clearly laid out in the briefing, is to hit the Fleet while they’re vulnerable on Exegol since shields don’t work on it’s atmosphere, and without shields hitting the cannons causes a chain reaction that brings down the ships. Deactivating their nav signal is only step one on the plan, as a means to stall the fleet from leaving the planet, step two is Lando riling up the people and step three is taking down the Final Order. You seem to be under the impression that the plan was to leave the fleet stranded on Exegol, while taking out a few ships on the way, but it’s explicitly stated the main goal is to take the ships down.
Changing this also turns Poe’s POV of the battle into nonsense, as every line he speaks clearly indicates he believes the ships won’t be stuck forever:
“We’ll have to hit them ourselves! Except… they’re stuck here and we’re horribly outnumbered, so we could just leave and regroup with Lando!”
“This is our last chance, we’ve got to hit those cannons now! Or… maybe later! They are stuck here guys don’t worry!”
“Poe, the command ship!”
“Oh, cool, it blew up, the fleet was already stuck here anyway, but hey, they’re toast, come on!”
Oh god, every time I think about any scene in this movie, it gets more and more confusing lol.
Okay, so, here’s the thing. Yes, they establish that hitting the underbelly canons will destroy the ships. Yes, they say they want to disable the Nav beacon. And yes, I agree that the mission is “about the nav signal itself.”
But, like, they don’t need to “temporarily disable” the Nav signal in order to destroy the underbelly canons. The underbelly canons are a weak spot because “Shields don’t work in atmosphere” or whatever.
Right, they don’t need to disable the signal to shoot the canons, they need to disable it to stop the ships from leaving atmosphere, where they’d become unstoppable as their shields would protect their “weakness”. Only by stopping the ships on the planet they can be destroyed by shooting the cannons.
And if - as we agree - “[the ships] can’t leave without [the nav signal],” why is their plan to disable it temporarily instead of permanently? How does that make any sense? And if they are trying to disable it permanently…why don’t we let Poe’s mission briefing establish that?
Like I said, the whole thing is dumb if you think too hard on it, why can’t they just shoot a torpedo at the tower and blow it up? Because we’re told they need a ground team to disable it, they “can’t take it down from the air”, we’re not shown or explained why, we just have to take their word for it, like wise we have to assume they can’t leave the fleet permanently stuck there because we’re told they can only do it temporarily. Of course from a storytelling perspective, the reason why is temporary is to keep a sense of urgency and tension, as there should still be a chance for the Final Order to escape, and so there should be an urgency to take down the ships while they can. Instead of “we disabled the nav signal, the whole fleet is stuck here for good!”. We don’t get that release of tension until Finn takes the command ship down.
Also, after Poe says “They’re stuck here! They’re toast!” J.J. kindly cuts to a wide shot of the Sith Fleet:
And in the background of that wide shot, we can see roughly 4200 Super-Duper-Death-Star-Star-Destroyers (classic SDDSSDs) still hovering perfectly in formation, completely unopposed, completed un-blown up. Yet Poe isn’t screaming “Hurry! The Nav Signal is destroyed and they can’t leave the planet! We have to blow them all up before they don’t leave the planet!” He’s just like, “Nah man, they’re stuck.” And they get outta there without exploding any more ships.
Poe’s full line is “they’re toast, come on!” implying there’s still work to do, so it’s safe to assume they continue taking down the rest of the SDDSSDs while Lando rescues Finn and Jannah and Rey is busy dying and such. Yes the sheer number of SDDSSDs is ridiculous, but we get an equally ridiculous amount or civilian ships so the implication is supposed to be they take 'em all down. And in case you’re not convinced, that is the plan as discussed in the briefing: “Fighters and freighters can take out their cannons if there are enough of us”, it might seem like there’s just too many of them, but as Lando says “There are more of us!”. There’s still debris falling down as Rey leaves on Luke’s X-wing that implies they kept on blowing them up, and all the enemy ships are gone on those final shots, so it’s all wrapped up in a nice bow. Again, it’s ridiculous by the sheer scope of the fleet, but that’s the way this movie operates.
So, given that they unconcernedly leave a whole bunch of ships behind; and that, if the navigation signal is gone, they won’t be able to navigate off of the planet, my read of the situation is:
- They send a sabotage crew in to destroy the navigation tower.
- They send an aerial crew for cover fire and support.
- Finn tries to destroy the Nav tower with his grenades, but it’s not powerful enough, and the Nav tower starts to come back online.
- Finn decides to destroy the entire command ship to make sure the nav tower is destroyed.
- Poe’s feeling pretty hopeless because so many of them are dying while trying to take out the nav tower.
- Reinforcements come, and give the Resistance the additional support they need to hold off the First/Final Order and let Finn complete his mission.
- Finn blows up the ship. Poe thinks this went according to the original plan. He doesn’t realize Finn had to improvise to destroy the nav tower, and is still stuck on the ship.
- Falcon picks up Finn and Jannah.
- Everyone ignores the second, fully operational tower on the ground, because f*ck it. WE WON, BABY!
[3] Things go according to plan, Poe is fully aware the nav signal won’t be down for long.
[5] Poe is feeling hopeless because they’re counting on backup to take down the fleet, there’s too many ships for the Resistance alone.
[6] The civilian fleet is not there to help Finn, it’s there to take down the Final Order, the whole fleet. Poe doesn’t even know of Finn’s plans.
[7] Poe is surprised that the command ship is destroyed which turns the fleet into sitting ducks. That wasn’t part of the plan, a surprise to be sure, but a welcomed one.
[9] Everyone ignores the second, fully operational tower on the ground, because there’s no ships left for it to guide.
I think the part I don’t understand in your explanation is, “the plan was always to temporairly disable their navigational systems.” Like…why? Why would you decide to temporarily block them from leaving, then try to destroy every single one of their 10,000+ ships in the “just minutes” before the navigation signal goes back online? The navigation signal that doesn’t even need to be destroyed for them to destroy the ships, because the ships already don’t have shields in atmosphere?
Because it’s the only shot they’ve got at defeating the fleet. If they don’t blow them up while they’re on Exegol then they’ll never be able to blow them up. If they don’t block them from leaving the atmosphere it’s over.
It’s like in ROTJ - Han didn’t just disable the shield generator for 60 seconds and then tell Lando, “You’ve got 60 seconds to destroy the Death Star!!” He just destroyed the shield generator. End of story.
It’s more like an inverse of the plan in TLJ to temporarily disable the tracker so the fleet can escape.
And I don’t blame you for reading it the other way. Chris and J.J. clearly had no clue what was happening in their own finale. It’s mind-bogglingly poor writing, in so many ways that I honestly just scratched the surface here. But all of this confusion on both of our parts sort of gets back to my original point. If we can make this whole thing make a lot more sense by just cutting a few words, why wouldn’t we?
I agree it’s bad, specially after a less ridiculous plan fails in the previous movie, and Poe and Finn were supposed to learn from it. But it’s what we’ve got to work with, and we have to work with what we’ve got. I don’t think cutting a few words does anything to make it better, I think it would make it more nonsensical, and remove elements of urgency and tension that at least work on a surface level.
What’s the issue with the “for just minutes” line?? I think it’s pretty straightforward:
The original plan is to disable the tower on the ground, when they reach Exegol Pride switches the signal to the command ship, so the plan changes to disable the tower on the ship, they succeed in disabling it, which leaves the ships stuck “for just minutes” (Poe reiterates this by saying “Nav signal’s down, but not for long!”), but Finn decides to take the whole ship down, which leaves the fleet stuck for good.
Of course there’s still the tower on the ground someone could fire back up, but at that point there’s a whole galaxy of ships attacking the Sith Fleet on their bright red weak point so it’s safe to say “they’re toast”. The whole fleet is destoryed, and the people who built it are crushed by rocks, so it’s all taken care of. The whole thing is kinda dumb, but if we removed all the dumb things in this movie we’d be left with nothing. In this case removing the line would turn the plan into a “we do this one thing and we win, period.” wich would massively lower the stakes of the Exegol assault. Instead the plan is to stall the ships from leaving Exegol long enough for Lando to rile up ‘the galaxy’ to come and take them down.
Disabling the navigation systems is not the main goal or the win condition, the plan was always to temporairly delay the Final Order. In fact their “victory” in disabling the tower happens during the ‘lowest point’ in the battle, since “no one is coming to help them”.
That doesn’t make sense though. You’re saying that the entire Sith Fleet is stuck for good because “Finn decides to take the whole [command] ship down.” When was it established that knocking out the command ship would cause a chain reaction and blow up the entire 10,000+ ship fleet? If knocking out the command ship will cripple the entire fleet, why do they even care about the nav tower? Why don’t they go after the command ship in the first place? It’s not like the nav tower is actually a shield generator that’s protecting the command ship, because they establish that “shields don’t work in Exegol’s atmosphere.” And how would that chain reaction work out logistically anyway? Is every ship connected directly to the command ship’s computer? And if so, what do they need the damn nav tower for??
The film makes it very clear that there’s only thing that unites the Sith Fleet - the nav tower signal. You take that out, the ships can’t leave the planet. The command ship isn’t even mentioned - not in the pre-mission briefing when they’re expositing all of this nonsense, not when they arrive on the planet - until it becomes the source of the navigation signal.
And if we ignore all of that and stick with the “command ship” theory anyway, that means we’re trying to do the entire battle sequence without setting up the plan, the goal, the plot, or the stakes. Hal, that’s not “subtlety”; that’s just sloppy writing. We can avoid all of this confusion if we just cut four words from the script. Four words!
It’s not a “theory”, I’m literally just laying out what happens in the movie. I’ve been mostly agreeing with everything you comment on this thread Sherlock, but I think you’re misunderstanding this whole plot point.
When was it established that knocking out the command ship would cause a chain reaction and blow up the entire 10,000+ ship fleet?
That’s not what I’m saying, the fleet is stuck there because they lose the nav signal from the command ship, the ships are blown up by hitting the underbelly cannons, it’s all set up in the pre-mission briefing. It’s not about the ship or the tower, it’s about the nav signal itself. They can’t leave without it.
“Nav signal’s down, but not for long!” is a direct call back to the fact the plan was always to temporairly disable their navigational systems, that’s why soon after Poe says “I don’t know R2, maybe nobody else is coming” and “we’ll have to take them ourselves”, because he thinks they’re losing their ‘window’ to attack the ships while they’re stuck. Otherwise, why not just take down the nav signal and leave until they get the resources to take down the ships? There would be no urgency at all. That’s why it’s important to set up that the ships will only be stuck there temporairly, taking out those four words makes everything worse, we’re left with lower stakes, no urgency, and an even more implausible setup.
Later on in the fight Poe still believes the fleet is only momentairly disabled, which is why he says “This is our last chance, we’ve got to hit those cannons now!”, he doesn’t know Finn is trying to take the command ship down, and so it’s not until he sees the ship blowing up that he realizes “The fleet is stuck here! They’re toast, come on!”. So the whole dynamic of the Exegol assault won’t make sense if you take out those four words.
What’s the issue with the “for just minutes” line?? I think it’s pretty straightforward:
The original plan is to disable the tower on the ground, when they reach Exegol Pride switches the signal to the command ship, so the plan changes to disable the tower on the ship, they succeed in disabling it, which leaves the ships stuck “for just minutes” (Poe reiterates this by saying “Nav signal’s down, but not for long!”), but Finn decides to take the whole ship down, which leaves the fleet stuck for good.
Of course there’s still the tower on the ground someone could fire back up, but at that point there’s a whole galaxy of ships attacking the Sith Fleet on their bright red weak point so it’s safe to say “they’re toast”. The whole fleet is destoryed, and the people who built it are crushed by rocks, so it’s all taken care of. The whole thing is kinda dumb, but if we removed all the dumb things in this movie we’d be left with nothing. In this case removing the line would turn the plan into a “we do this one thing and we win, period.” wich would massively lower the stakes of the Exegol assault. Instead the plan is to stall the ships from leaving Exegol long enough for Lando to rile up ‘the galaxy’ to come and take them down.
Disabling the navigation systems is not the main goal or the win condition, the plan was always to temporairly delay the Final Order. In fact their “victory” in disabling the tower happens during the ‘lowest point’ in the battle, since “no one is coming to help them”.
That’s just the way the deepfakes work, if the face is obscured or at an odd angle then it won’t be detected. The system won’t have enough data to construct a deepfake to put on top of it. In the clips I put together I used fade-ins to hide the shift into the deepfake.
I suggested and was talking about my idea haha.
Ohh I see now haha 😃 well it was a good call.
Awesome! Nice seeing your idea become a reality. Great work Burbin!
Edit: After watching a few times I would suggest maybe making the purple a little stronger. I feel like the blue is drowning it out a little. Or maybe slow down slightly while she ignites the blade.
Oh it wasn’t my idea, I’m not sure who first suggested it, I actually hadn’t even noticed the green and blue flashes when she ignites the saber, and I think it should remain subtle. But I’ll see if I can work on it some more once I get the original shot.
Sure! I guess it’d be good to apply it to the original shot.
[Edit: Burbin, sorry, didn’t mean to post so quickly together. That looks nice!]
It’s cool! Mine’s just a quick little edit and off the current topic.
I like that it looks yellow, it kinda looks like gramps’ old Jedi Fighter!
I gave it a shot to alter Rey’s saber switch lights to purple and blue as it was discussed a few pages back:
https://vimeo.com/525235954
pw:fanedit
Okay, it seems all my work masking the Rogue One deepfakes might not have been in vain, as comparing my clips to Shamook’s it seems I used a higher fidelity source for the movie (I used Hal’s fanedit), so everything other than the deepfake is of higher quality on my clips.
Here’s a comparison (keep in mind I gave the mask some opacity to help it blend):
http://www.framecompare.com/screenshotcomparison/KG6Z7NNX
I don’t know if it would be practical or necessary to redo all of my clips with the new sources to get the best all around quality, but when I have the time I will at the very least be redoing the shots that were previously missing from Shamook’s video.
Here’s what I intend as the final look and ordering of the Ach-To sequence. I tried to add a very subtle purple to the sunrise. (Any footage before or after the sequence is not color corrected in this clip, nor is the saber flashback.)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16kfx-ovM2HjYCqiexhK76qnAAIuq-guZ/view?usp=drivesdk
There’s a visual glitch I noticed on the top and bottom on the first establishing shot.
Personally I prefer Neverar’s original regrade for the sunrise, feels more natural.
I’d be quite glad to have my work be rendered useless if Shamook could provide source quality files of the Leia/Tarkin deepfakes, as well as the missing Tarkin shots where I used other sources that are of notably lower quality.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0m06uo7or6lfsb/AAC4xdD26_gbj_LTFJ5MjqVLa?dl=0
There are 24 clips of Tarkin and 1 of Leia in that dropbox folder.
They should be original film resolution and quality.Can you let me know which Tarkin shots that you used other sources on, my file management is terrible and I may have them somewhere.
Wow, fantastic! I used other sources for shots that weren’t included in your Youtube video, so taking a look at your files and going off from memory I believe they are shots 02, 05, 09, 15, 16, 17 and 23 (couldn’t find any source for this one). So it looks like they’re all here!
I’d be quite glad to have my work be rendered useless if Shamook could provide source quality files of the Leia/Tarkin deepfakes, as well as the missing Tarkin shots where I used other sources that are of notably lower quality.
Hal’s already said he doesn’t mind the line or the continuity error so I don’t see a reason to continue this topic here.
I mean, it kinda makes sense there would be rumors that the old decrepit guy that has the rule over the whole galaxy with an iron grip might be seeking to prolong his dictatorship indefinitely.
I don’t see how saying there were rumors that Palpatine wanted to cheat death means everyone in the OT knew he was a Sith.
Although people are ok with it and come up with “interpretations” or “what he meant was …”
Isn’t that essentially excusing people or bad things/thinsg that don’t make sense.
It’s concerning we are getting to the point that its “ok” to have lines that make no sense in context to anything but its “ok” since we excuse it and make interpretations of things.
I would never “excuse” the terrible things in TRoS, but out of everything the movie does badly I just honestly don’t see any issue with that particular line, in context I don’t see how it “makes no sense”. In fact I’d say you’re the one making an oddly literal “interpretation” of a line that is meant to have a more broad and figurative/symbolic meaning. Do you honestly think Luke is saying that there are a thousand generations of Jedi possesing/living inside Rey’s body? When he says “because she saw your spirit, your heart”, do you think he meant Leia used a Force X-ray power to stare at Rey’s beating heart? There’s nothing in the movie to indicate that Luke was speaking literally. It’s quite the opposite, as in the climax, where the Jedi spirits communicate with Rey, it’s clearly shown to be an outward connection (as she looks far into the vastness of the stars), in complete contrast with Palpatine’s “my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me”.
Also, much like how Luke wanted the Jedi to die with him in TLJ, now he tells Rey that the Jedi live on with her. It stands in line with his sentiment at the Battle of Crait: Because of Rey, Luke was not ‘The Last Jedi’, and so the Jedi didn’t end with his sacrifice.
“We will always be with you” sounds so…personal. It sounds like it just refers to Luke and Leia.
“A thousand generations live in you” better helps to foreshadow the scope of what’s to come.
Exactly, if this line was changed it would seem to setup for Luke and Leia to show up on Exegol, instead of all the jedi (and the phantom four).
I think “a thousand generations live in you” works far better as setup for Rey hearing the voices of past Jedi, having them “stand behind” her (as Qui-Gon says), and Rey saying she’s “all the Jedi”.
Luke did not stay on the island simply out of fear or shame. He believed that he was doing what’s best for the galaxy. All the teachings he gives to Rey serve to explain this reasoning. However, fear and shame had a hand in leading him to those conclusions. His fear of loss led him to cement Ben’s turn to the dark, his fear of failure led him to renounce the Jedi.
But the reason he stayed on the island and refused to fight was much deeper than simple fear. I would propose changing the line to “It was fear that led me here”. I think that under the context of their conversation this subtle change would help avoid any apparent misrepresentation or oversimplification of TLJ’s story.
