Bingowings

DarkFather said:

It's not a question of if he would feel it. I think he would. Given the technology, I think any damage sustained on even a mechanical section of his body would register to his brain as if it were his actual organic body. The real question is if he should acknowledge that pain in a cry of exclamation. I don't think he needs to. Like Vaderios said, it's not his character.

He didn't really experience any physical damage in ANH so this film was the first time we saw it.

Therefore it clearly is part of his character to express pain if he feels it and react with rage at the person who has inflicted it upon him (you could argue that that shouldn't be the case but seeing as this film set the precedent for that aspect of Vader it should be taken as the default setting).

He was certainly not shy about shouting in anger in ANH something which was toned down in the other movies.

Vader is a bully, he's used to kicking people around and can still be taken aback when someone manages to get a jab in through that hard shell of his.

If anything it actually makes the character more interesting because it proves that there is still a human in there somewhere hidden in all that technology.

Sevb32 said:

I was wondering about the "AAAHH!" when Vader falls off the Carbonite platform, it seems to be a repeat of another he does earlier in the duel when Luke put the steam tubes in his face. In the original version there were two differenct sounding "Aaahs!" They both seem exactly the same in the SEs.

When he gets the steam in his face it's clearly a "Frohw-!..." and not a "Arrgh-ohw!", anyone can hear that, surely? ;-)

I'm partial to both noises but I could never figure out why Vader's breath screen doesn't work both ways as a respirator and as a filter, should steam in the face really effect him if his breathing is mostly a mechanical process?

But you'd have to lose the entire action if it didn't.

He still has pain receptors (even in his mechanical limbs, like Luke does in his new hand) so it makes sense that he should feel the pain of taking a laser sword hit to the shoulder (clearly Anakin/Vader has a blind spot for protecting that area that he hasn't worked on enough since Dooku took his arm off).

What's more confusing is that he gives out such a weedy yelp when he was younger (he may have gone into shock but that "Urgh" is one of the weakest ever in cinema).

Dooku being of stonger stuff (possibly hardened by having to live with such a silly name for all those years...see Johnny Cash was right) just winces when he has both hands taken off (not like Luke who deserves some sort of screaming in pain medal when he loses just one hand).

From now on I think we should name an element added by Adywan on his camera as the Sketchrob... (for example the Sketchrob teeth, or the Sketchrob Canyon) as in the Exorcist steps or The Wilhelm scream.

The Sketchrob Canyon sounds good enough to become a canon canyon.

vaderios said:

OH!!!

I LOVE IT!

please post the real one without the PS filters. i want to refine it if you want ;)

The most cool addition is the big monitors behind the crew!

Awesome touch Bingo!

 

-Angel

 

The problem is I'm trying to illustrate a general concept and when mixing stuff pinched from various sources trying to unify them is very difficult without using the filters.

They look quite tatty as it is but if you were to see the joins...oh boy!

This is where mastering 3d imagining would be a great idea.

That way I could build gyroscopic gimbled chairs on mechnical arms and big viewscreens with relative ease.

What I'm having to do now is find something similar that someone else has done and cut bend and distort it to fit the basic area I've got to play with and it wouldn't illustrate the idea well if the hodgepodge effect was immediately obvious.

It would make much more sense to build it from scratch to get a really nice look.

My efforts are more like a basic idea scribbled on a napkin for someone with more skill to work on.

It would be nice if the chairs could swivel round so the tech squids could watch the hologram for example but illustrating that idea with 2d elements from various sources is a pain.

If I had the room to get my drawing board and scanner out it would be much more easy just to draw the thing.

This is the nearest thing I've got left to an unfiltered version and it has been filtered and also has a chunk of some bloke head poking in through the undercoat.

vaderios said:

So you proposing as the camera enters the room to make a pan scan from up to down.

What about the roof to be like planetarium with all the readings up instead of down?

 

-Angel

 

Yes something like that would make sense, in every other scene those add on areas could be moving in the background and not necessarily in focus (much like the other bits and bobs in the Yavin base scenes in ANH):

I'd like to see a planetarium like effect too (just to get an idea of what that would look like instead).

It might be nice to have concave monitors where the walls were,cue more tastelessly taked on nonsense (just to illustrate the general idea):

Now with crap extendable arm things:

vaderios said:

OMG flying calamaris! Its a trap

 

Very simple because of lazyness :P

-Angel

They aren't meant to be floating but my feable skills are no match for the power of vaderios.

Hopefully you get the general idea and can turn out a better interpretation of it.

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

vaderios said:

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Bingowings said:

I will also be trying my hand at making the Rebel briefing room look less like a plywood collection of left overs from the other movies.

I'd like to see your efforts in that area too.

Yes I would love to see some tests from both of you.

To me it looks to clean and perfect! Why Lucas? Why?!!  :)

Really i didnt knew what to do with this area. :\

Maybe is wiser to add some color to several objects or change their brightness.

-Angel

I forgot to comment on this! I really like what you've done here, vaderios.

I just wish it didn't look so slick and clean, ya know? Like the rebels had to slap together what they had to make it work. I don't know if there's anything that you or Adywan can do...

Not as slick as vaderios (and maybe he can expand on the idea) but here my stab.

I thought it would be nice to stick some echo reflectors on the ceiling like in the Royal Albert Hall and have some tech guys on the tactical stations on cherry picker like chair (like the one Ackbar sits in during the battle) Note no medical droids in this scene :

Nice to see you back Adywan and I hope our various comments and observations have been helpful.

Slowing the beast down really does make it look a noticeably less like the sock monster, it would have been nice to see you rework the model but you are dealing in the world of the possible and we do tend to press for the impossible to stetch your creativity to the max.

Maybe when the technology becomes affordable someone will do a ESB:R:SE MKI version with your lovely retracting teeth idea (that's the thing with us fan editor types we do like to change things).

And to those getting their knickers in a twist (can you feel the love Ady?) I told you he was too hard at work actually doing the thing to comment.

I noticed there is one asteroid that looks as if it's about to impact with the side of the crater which ducks behind it, if you are done and dusted with this sequence fair enough but it would be a fun addition just to see it smack into the side and splinter.

Kurgan said:

sketchrob said:

Y'know Kurgan just once I'd like to see you acutally attemt to create any of your "suggestions", I really would.

 

Says the one who has never released a fan edit...

 

Last I checked this thread was about making suggestions, whether or not we had any plans to do it ourselves... not gushing over what fan editors had already decided to do on their own, so please take your snarky attitude and shove it out the nearest airlock (and try the spell-checker next time). ;)

A good point there, this thread is about making suggestions and you are free to make whatever suggestions you like.

It's not necessary to be a fan editor to make suggestions either, this thread is about giving people ideas.

Some of the people who contribute to it might want to run off and work on those ideas themselves, others may just want to throw ideas out for others to ponder and perhaps pick up and develop.

I would prefer a snark free atmosphere in here  too, snarking is not grown up and it's not clever.

Snarks will be hunted down and exterminated!

Vaderios, there are whole websites devoted to that sort of thing.

I think that unless someone comes up with something specifically ESB:R related that needs to be said it might be an idea to just rest this thread for a while.

I'm sure Adywan will re-awaken it when he has a major announcement to make but unless our imaginations scream otherwise I sense our work is finished here my friends.

Young Adywan has more than enough to go on at the moment and we may be of more help to him making suggestions for his future projects.

DarkFather said:

I just want to be able to take the Emperor seriously. He is the prime villain after all.

Just look at Richard III (the play not the man who was by all accounts rather nice), he is both hilariously funny and bone chillingly villainous all at the same time.

Caligula in I CLAVDIVS too.

That's where Palpatine is coming from.

If you want to do an edit with a near silent slow speaking Palpatine go ahead though.

At the very least it would be interesting to see as a curio.

ben_danger said:

could a full alternative Battle of Endor storyboard be developed? perhaps just scene for scene, to show how the old footage and heavily editted material fits in?

I tried a few photoshop doodles a few pages back.

Yeah it can be done but we'd have to figure out what we do like and what we don't in the existing material and any new ideas we'd like to put in (like my AT-AT in the forest notion).

Like all the effects in ROTJ there is a great amount of inconsistancy when it comes to quality.

DarkFather said:

I suggest editing out a chunk of the Emperor's dialogue. As presented in ROTJ, he's a very stock villain. When you imagine him sitting there, most the time silent, you can feel the tension building up. So when he does speak, his words could that much more weight. I also suggest having him speak more slowly and collectively, as the character did in Empire Strikes Back.

Silence among contrasting characters, when done correctly, is a superb way of creating a foreboding tension. The way it is in ROTJ now, is very scripted and watered down.

Consider this.

I actually like the idea of Palpatine being a smarmy git, the way Ian delivers lines like "Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will still be operational when your friends arrive" cracks me up everytime.

In a way Palpatine is Yoda's distorted reflection.

Yoda delivers wacked out humour but still manages to sound mystically good, Palps delivers wacked out humour but still manages to sound mystically evil, both hide their great power behind the mask of ancient frail looking bodies.

If the Clive Revill Palpatine had survived through to ROTJ I feel we would have missed out on one of the better performances in the whole saga (he certainly makes the prequels more watchable), though I liked the spooky look of the original Emperor more.

OzoneSherrif said:

One of the worst aspects of the Endor forest battle is the way the Stormtroopers stumble around staring at the ground being absolutely unaware of their surroundings and constantly letting Han flip them over. that didn't even make sense

Once again some of that can be edited around or tinkered with digitally.

Pointing lazy trooper heads up is a (time consuming) doddle and who knows, maybe the 501st can be called in to do some more dignified trooperage as plate elements?

More rebels and Ewoks need to die in this battle too, for their victory to be believable the good guys have to take losses.

But the actual story element of the ground battle is essential to the tale in my opinion, it just has to be made less rubbish like all the other componants of this rather half arsed film.

ben_danger said:

maybe the more space battle we have the less ewok we would need. do you think that with the DSIII twist, the Imperial ambush on ednor wouldnt be necessary? so han actually blows the place up first time?

I think you still need it but with better Ewoks and less slapstick.

The ground battle/space battle/sabre duel trio needs to remain but it has to be improved so every element shines.

The action highlight of ANH was the space battle, the action highlights of ESB were a ground battle and a sabre duel this film ends with all three in a way we haven't seen before and that's necessary not only as the end of this trilogy but (unless George changes his mind) the end of the whole saga.

Ewoks which act like real believable primitive but brave creatures are fine, silly teddy bears with pebble eyes hitting themselves in the face are prototype Jar-Jars.

vaderios said:

I want new Death star room! More impressive and iconic!

-Angel

Get to work big fella!

I was trying to get the basic idea of the old one (as it's existing footage which can be manipulated) but tie it in with the colour scheme of the throne room (with the UV lit controls and the red and blue readouts).

But if you can do better please, please do because I love seeing your work.

I will also be trying my hand at making the Rebel briefing room look less like a plywood collection of left overs from the other movies.

I'd like to see your efforts in that area too.

While we are waiting your latest masterpiece here is a merge of both of our work (a bit rough around the edges) :

Here Jerjerrod realises what Piett's plan :

ben_danger said:

if this all happens, would it be appropriate to have imps celebrating on endor at the end too?

 

also, would the shield generator protect one or two death stars?

I would imagine that the shield would only protect the parked Death Star.

The other one has maneuverability on it's side (if it had the same amount of shield protection as the other one the Executor wouldn't even get close to it).

Getting two Death Stars built so quickly came at a price, one can't move at all but has sheild protection, one has only basic protection but can get out of the way.

The Rebels expect the Emperor to be on the protected one, being so confident at his stratagem working Palpatine puts himself on the get away quickish version hoping surprise would be a greater defence than any shield.

As for the Imperials celebrating it's been a long war and I imagine it will be a long time making the peace.

I don't think Piett would be the only officer to defect (and then out of no love for the Rebellion just utter miff with the boss men who go around choking and blowing up their best men).

So having them dancing with Ewoks would not be appropriate just yet.

Just look at the Stormtrooper killing spree they have on Coruscant when they get the good news.

vaderios said:

I like the idea

I don't like the gro plan of piett's eyes. Too non Star Wars

Still i prefer the death star to be closer.

i hope someone to pack all the mockups in one some day.

At last we see some color in this movie :)

-Angel

Marquand/Lucas use the same technique on Vader while Luke is getting the old sparky treatment from Palps so I shouldn't see it being a problem here.

"Closer?" "Grrrrrrggghhhhh?"

As for the other Death Star not being too close, remember the one still parked at Endor is quite out of the way of the battle too and  it could get closer as the battle draws in but remember this one has Palpatine on board so it may be trying to steer not too close to the dangerzone.

It doesn't have to be that close really, it has the superlaser and the fleet are the cannon fodder (which is why Piett isn't too pleased).

Besides if it were that close it would be able to target the Rebel ships with greater accuracy it's the fact that both fleets are so tightly knitted which is causing the friendly fire.

Here's a storyboard of Piett's epiphany :

Lovely work Vaderios as always, you really capture the drama of the scene there.

I love the angry eye of the Death Star peeking over the edge of the moon (I almost expect it to call out "Dinsdale!")

Ripplin said:

These new ideas are really cool. Do you think it could be done only with existing footage and audio of the actors? Maybe some lines would have to be delivered where you can't see their mouths, like from behind or off-screen.

Some it can be done with just clever editing if you see the screen mock-up above of Luke's reaction it's context has changed, he doesn't need to say anything because just seeing that familiar broken globe rotate into view tells the audience all it needs to know, he isn't on that Death Star (so where is he?) .

Palpatine says "now witness the fire power of this full armed and operational battlestation" (I'm warming to the idea of it being complete but I'm not sure how the Executor could knock out even a smaller version on her own).

With Piett it's more complicated, it might be possible to mock up his utter dismay of seeing his own ships being shot at by the Death Star from that final shot of him in ESB.

Throughout ROTJ the bridge set is cut short by having the blast door down cutting off the view to the connecting corridor.

It may be possible to take footage from ESB of the door up and sample someone from somewhere saying "Secure the bridge!" and have the blast door slam down.

Then add another of him speaking in hushed tones to another officer.

Over the speaker system a voice could declare that 'Rebels have taken control of the Emperor's battlestation we are preparing to attack the rebels!" (microphone distortion can cover the unknown actor's identity, to buy Piett some time before those loyal to the Emperor try and stop him) and have the Admiral's aide say something along the line of "You are playing a dangerous game Admiral" (isn't he always).

He puts the ship into attack mode and we can hear troopers on the other side of the door trying to cut through to regain control of the bridge (open the blast doors!).

And all this can be done in a few minutes to convey the general idea.

Lines like "Intensify the forward batteries" can still be used and "I don't want anything to get through!" can now refer to the blast doors.

So it's a mixture of mostly existing material (augmented by shifting it around to mean something else) built upon with a few additions.

The countdown to trying to destroy Endor could be accomplished by sampling the similar scene in ANH but replacing Tarkin with a figure in an Imperial Navy uniform adding a voice declaring that "The Commander orders the moon to be targetted, there will be no escape for the Rebels" (or some such Nazi nonsense).

You get the general idea.

My first few mock ups :

 Adywan has already given this some thought, he proposed using the shell from ROTS as the third Death Star :

adywan said:How about using the skeleton Death Star from ROTS. That would be easy to add to any needed shots and , as Darth Richard said, it would be destroyed with in the explosion as a ripple effect. Because its only in its basic construction, as sluggo said, it wouldn't need any plot changes as the rebels would still concentrate on destroying the almost completed version which is the main threat..
One thing that has always bugged me about ROTJ is that the imperial fleet was never completely destroyed, so did they just give up when the Death Star was destroyed? I'm going to be adding the remnants of the fleet being caught up in the energy wave and you'll see them being destroyed. I think it will give the destruction of the Empire more impact and will take this sequence away from the "ANH rehashed" feeling I've always had about ROTJ's ending. Another thing i always wanted to see that was in the script, and will be in my version, was when the rebels realise the shield is still up and some ships couldn't turn in time impacting into the shield.It could be fully complete or it could look like this painting of the first Death Star in a similar state of near completion to the second (which would give the Executor a nice bit of exposed under belly to ram into) :

But it could be fully complete or it could look like this painting of the first Death Star in a similar state of near completion to the second (which would give the Executor a nice bit of exposed under belly to ram into) :