Bingowings

One of the few things that TPM got right was showing Anakin as a slave but as a slave without ambition (other than seeing the stars).

As his ambition grows he remains a slave but becomes more and more frustrated by it.

He is a slave to the Jedi, their disciplines, rules and the special part he is meant to play in their destiny.

He is a slave to emotion and to his perception of the future (this is the weakness Palpatine uses to cage him).

Then he becomes a slave to the dark side (effectively the property of his Master) and his ambition to remove Palpatine's heel from his back.

The only time he isn't a slave is when he decides to place the safety of his son before that of himself.

Anakin redeemed is a stronger man than the weak slave Darth Vader because he is for once his own man.

It's a shame that Lucas potrayed the character so poorly in the prequels because it has such potential as piece of drama but that's a discussion for another place.

DarkFather said:Bingowings, on the last page I explained how Vader is anything but weak. It'd be neat if you decided to respond to it instead of continuing to insist that he's some weakling hiding in a suit.

With respect I think I did respond by re-asserting my view that he is a weak broken person kept alive by machinery and the negative side of the Force.

He is emotionally weak because he is a bully sitting on a house of cards assembled by Palpatine and despite his plans to the contrary feels powerless to do anything about it on his own.

He is physically weak, as soon as his life support is buggered up by Palpatine's Force lightning he dies within a few minutes.

He takes out his weakness on those around him, he can't breath so he chokes the life out anyone who steps on his toes.

He only becomes strong when his compassion tunes him back into the light side of the Force (something Palpatine cannot master).

As a military commander he is limited to controlling people through fear and never commands respect (Tarkin seems to be able to handle both) and he allows his emotional attachment to his son and his hope that it will give him the upper hand over Palpatine to push himself and those around him to ruin.

You can and obviously do hold different views so it's pointless to press them further either way.

You think he is battle hardened and those sounds weaken the strong arm of the Emperor's forces, I think he is battle damaged and the sounds flag up the fragile human hiding inside the bionic monster.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

It would also be nice if someone could do a better version of this.

I thought it made more sense if Tydirium was an Imperial Transporter if it was supposed to be dropping off parts for the moon base.

DarkFather said:

Sevb32 said:

I like the Vader audible reactions, it shows he still feels some pain, even being as much machine as he is. But go back and listen to the original pre SE editions of the vhs tapes or maybe even the pre SE dvds (Which I don't have.) Vader's Carbonite groans sounded like two different ones, in the SE's they both sound more or less the same.

 

 I believe he does feel pain, but then again, why is it even important to know? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you're implying that it's important we know he's a sentient being. We already know that from the scene in the meditation chamber when the helmet is replaced on his head. And if there's any doubt after that, we'll know for sure when it's revealed that Vader is indeed Luke's father. Why do you need other, superfluous parts that don't go along with the character anyway?

I realize that a lot of it comes down to opinion. I see it from your point of view for sure, and figured I'd share my point of view on the matter. Really, I'm not trying to debate anybody. What I am trying to do is help them to open up their minds to other possibilities, which I think will really in turn help this project. We'll be taking all sorts of awesome things into account. Anyway, you have my view now.

At that point we find out there is something inside there but we don't know what it is, it could be some kind of scarred alien for all we know, it only when we see him in Jedi that we find out for sure that there is a broken human being in there and not the dark demon that we were led to believe.

The conflict between the inner Anakin and the outer Vader defines what his story arc is about in the OT.

But as I said before it's something someone can make an arguement for playing about with (tuning the frequency so you get more Dark Lord than smashed egg) but he is still a weak human in a hard shell so personally it makes sense to me that he responds to having his armour (both physical and emotional) breached.

If Vader is was so strong he would have taken on Palpatine on his own (Palpatine really is strong and hides his great powers behind a mask of being a sick old man, he is the counterpoint to Yoda who hides his power in much the same way).

Vader and Palpatine are at a point of stalemate with each other, they both want the other out of the way and see Luke as the tool for doing it.

In the end it's Anakin's latent ability to feel compassion that makes him strong (even stronger than Palpatine).

There are two Vaders here, the one he wants us to see, the Dark Lord who crushes all who stand in his way and the physically and emotional wreckage that sits inside the armoured shell.

He hasn't had to fight a Jedi in decades (leaving the EU to one side and allowing for the obvious fact that Obi-Wan allowed himself to be killed). So this is the first time he has had to extend himself in this way for a long time.

Luke loses this battle but he puts up a strong fight (with only a few days training and youth on his side) which proves just how weak Vader is becoming.

So I'd allow him a few grunts and grrrrs of anger and pain.

DarkFather said:

He's a Sith, I expect him to act out in rage. Sith use their rage to lash out at their enemies. In this case, he focused it on Luke and ended up taking off the kid's hand. But I'm talking about the exclamations themselves. Do you really think they belong with this towering, villainous half-machine that has been battle hardened? I don't think it does. That's why I suggest to Adywan that it be edited out. I could use the "first time we saw it in that context so it must be true" logic, and going by that, there'd be no point in editing any films. The yells were something that bothered me from the first time I watched ESB, and come to find out, it's bothering some other fans interested in this project as well.

I wasn't saying that because it's the first time it should stay, I was saying that because it's the first time that is the point from which you make any editing decisions from.

Vader is that way now, you can make a good arguement for making him a tougher creature in a re-edit but in the text we are working from he is really a fragile being pretending to be strong, he is hiding the fact that he is a weak, sick old man behind a fear inducing mask and machinery.

I think those responses help reveal that truth to the audience and it's something that pays off in the final chapter.

DarkFather said:

It's not a question of if he would feel it. I think he would. Given the technology, I think any damage sustained on even a mechanical section of his body would register to his brain as if it were his actual organic body. The real question is if he should acknowledge that pain in a cry of exclamation. I don't think he needs to. Like Vaderios said, it's not his character.

He didn't really experience any physical damage in ANH so this film was the first time we saw it.

Therefore it clearly is part of his character to express pain if he feels it and react with rage at the person who has inflicted it upon him (you could argue that that shouldn't be the case but seeing as this film set the precedent for that aspect of Vader it should be taken as the default setting).

He was certainly not shy about shouting in anger in ANH something which was toned down in the other movies.

Vader is a bully, he's used to kicking people around and can still be taken aback when someone manages to get a jab in through that hard shell of his.

If anything it actually makes the character more interesting because it proves that there is still a human in there somewhere hidden in all that technology.

Sevb32 said:

I was wondering about the "AAAHH!" when Vader falls off the Carbonite platform, it seems to be a repeat of another he does earlier in the duel when Luke put the steam tubes in his face. In the original version there were two differenct sounding "Aaahs!" They both seem exactly the same in the SEs.

When he gets the steam in his face it's clearly a "Frohw-!..." and not a "Arrgh-ohw!", anyone can hear that, surely? ;-)

I'm partial to both noises but I could never figure out why Vader's breath screen doesn't work both ways as a respirator and as a filter, should steam in the face really effect him if his breathing is mostly a mechanical process?

But you'd have to lose the entire action if it didn't.

He still has pain receptors (even in his mechanical limbs, like Luke does in his new hand) so it makes sense that he should feel the pain of taking a laser sword hit to the shoulder (clearly Anakin/Vader has a blind spot for protecting that area that he hasn't worked on enough since Dooku took his arm off).

What's more confusing is that he gives out such a weedy yelp when he was younger (he may have gone into shock but that "Urgh" is one of the weakest ever in cinema).

Dooku being of stonger stuff (possibly hardened by having to live with such a silly name for all those years...see Johnny Cash was right) just winces when he has both hands taken off (not like Luke who deserves some sort of screaming in pain medal when he loses just one hand).

From now on I think we should name an element added by Adywan on his camera as the Sketchrob... (for example the Sketchrob teeth, or the Sketchrob Canyon) as in the Exorcist steps or The Wilhelm scream.

The Sketchrob Canyon sounds good enough to become a canon canyon.

vaderios said:

OH!!!

I LOVE IT!

please post the real one without the PS filters. i want to refine it if you want ;)

The most cool addition is the big monitors behind the crew!

Awesome touch Bingo!

 

-Angel

 

The problem is I'm trying to illustrate a general concept and when mixing stuff pinched from various sources trying to unify them is very difficult without using the filters.

They look quite tatty as it is but if you were to see the joins...oh boy!

This is where mastering 3d imagining would be a great idea.

That way I could build gyroscopic gimbled chairs on mechnical arms and big viewscreens with relative ease.

What I'm having to do now is find something similar that someone else has done and cut bend and distort it to fit the basic area I've got to play with and it wouldn't illustrate the idea well if the hodgepodge effect was immediately obvious.

It would make much more sense to build it from scratch to get a really nice look.

My efforts are more like a basic idea scribbled on a napkin for someone with more skill to work on.

It would be nice if the chairs could swivel round so the tech squids could watch the hologram for example but illustrating that idea with 2d elements from various sources is a pain.

If I had the room to get my drawing board and scanner out it would be much more easy just to draw the thing.

This is the nearest thing I've got left to an unfiltered version and it has been filtered and also has a chunk of some bloke head poking in through the undercoat.

vaderios said:

So you proposing as the camera enters the room to make a pan scan from up to down.

What about the roof to be like planetarium with all the readings up instead of down?

 

-Angel

 

Yes something like that would make sense, in every other scene those add on areas could be moving in the background and not necessarily in focus (much like the other bits and bobs in the Yavin base scenes in ANH):

I'd like to see a planetarium like effect too (just to get an idea of what that would look like instead).

It might be nice to have concave monitors where the walls were,cue more tastelessly taked on nonsense (just to illustrate the general idea):

Now with crap extendable arm things:

vaderios said:

OMG flying calamaris! Its a trap

 

Very simple because of lazyness :P

-Angel

They aren't meant to be floating but my feable skills are no match for the power of vaderios.

Hopefully you get the general idea and can turn out a better interpretation of it.

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

vaderios said:

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Bingowings said:

I will also be trying my hand at making the Rebel briefing room look less like a plywood collection of left overs from the other movies.

I'd like to see your efforts in that area too.

Yes I would love to see some tests from both of you.

To me it looks to clean and perfect! Why Lucas? Why?!!  :)

Really i didnt knew what to do with this area. :\

Maybe is wiser to add some color to several objects or change their brightness.

-Angel

I forgot to comment on this! I really like what you've done here, vaderios.

I just wish it didn't look so slick and clean, ya know? Like the rebels had to slap together what they had to make it work. I don't know if there's anything that you or Adywan can do...

Not as slick as vaderios (and maybe he can expand on the idea) but here my stab.

I thought it would be nice to stick some echo reflectors on the ceiling like in the Royal Albert Hall and have some tech guys on the tactical stations on cherry picker like chair (like the one Ackbar sits in during the battle) Note no medical droids in this scene :

Nice to see you back Adywan and I hope our various comments and observations have been helpful.

Slowing the beast down really does make it look a noticeably less like the sock monster, it would have been nice to see you rework the model but you are dealing in the world of the possible and we do tend to press for the impossible to stetch your creativity to the max.

Maybe when the technology becomes affordable someone will do a ESB:R:SE MKI version with your lovely retracting teeth idea (that's the thing with us fan editor types we do like to change things).

And to those getting their knickers in a twist (can you feel the love Ady?) I told you he was too hard at work actually doing the thing to comment.

I noticed there is one asteroid that looks as if it's about to impact with the side of the crater which ducks behind it, if you are done and dusted with this sequence fair enough but it would be a fun addition just to see it smack into the side and splinter.

Kurgan said:

sketchrob said:

Y'know Kurgan just once I'd like to see you acutally attemt to create any of your "suggestions", I really would.

 

Says the one who has never released a fan edit...

 

Last I checked this thread was about making suggestions, whether or not we had any plans to do it ourselves... not gushing over what fan editors had already decided to do on their own, so please take your snarky attitude and shove it out the nearest airlock (and try the spell-checker next time). ;)

A good point there, this thread is about making suggestions and you are free to make whatever suggestions you like.

It's not necessary to be a fan editor to make suggestions either, this thread is about giving people ideas.

Some of the people who contribute to it might want to run off and work on those ideas themselves, others may just want to throw ideas out for others to ponder and perhaps pick up and develop.

I would prefer a snark free atmosphere in here  too, snarking is not grown up and it's not clever.

Snarks will be hunted down and exterminated!

Vaderios, there are whole websites devoted to that sort of thing.

I think that unless someone comes up with something specifically ESB:R related that needs to be said it might be an idea to just rest this thread for a while.

I'm sure Adywan will re-awaken it when he has a major announcement to make but unless our imaginations scream otherwise I sense our work is finished here my friends.

Young Adywan has more than enough to go on at the moment and we may be of more help to him making suggestions for his future projects.

DarkFather said:

I just want to be able to take the Emperor seriously. He is the prime villain after all.

Just look at Richard III (the play not the man who was by all accounts rather nice), he is both hilariously funny and bone chillingly villainous all at the same time.

Caligula in I CLAVDIVS too.

That's where Palpatine is coming from.

If you want to do an edit with a near silent slow speaking Palpatine go ahead though.

At the very least it would be interesting to see as a curio.

ben_danger said:

could a full alternative Battle of Endor storyboard be developed? perhaps just scene for scene, to show how the old footage and heavily editted material fits in?

I tried a few photoshop doodles a few pages back.

Yeah it can be done but we'd have to figure out what we do like and what we don't in the existing material and any new ideas we'd like to put in (like my AT-AT in the forest notion).

Like all the effects in ROTJ there is a great amount of inconsistancy when it comes to quality.

DarkFather said:

I suggest editing out a chunk of the Emperor's dialogue. As presented in ROTJ, he's a very stock villain. When you imagine him sitting there, most the time silent, you can feel the tension building up. So when he does speak, his words could that much more weight. I also suggest having him speak more slowly and collectively, as the character did in Empire Strikes Back.

Silence among contrasting characters, when done correctly, is a superb way of creating a foreboding tension. The way it is in ROTJ now, is very scripted and watered down.

Consider this.

I actually like the idea of Palpatine being a smarmy git, the way Ian delivers lines like "Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will still be operational when your friends arrive" cracks me up everytime.

In a way Palpatine is Yoda's distorted reflection.

Yoda delivers wacked out humour but still manages to sound mystically good, Palps delivers wacked out humour but still manages to sound mystically evil, both hide their great power behind the mask of ancient frail looking bodies.

If the Clive Revill Palpatine had survived through to ROTJ I feel we would have missed out on one of the better performances in the whole saga (he certainly makes the prequels more watchable), though I liked the spooky look of the original Emperor more.

OzoneSherrif said:

One of the worst aspects of the Endor forest battle is the way the Stormtroopers stumble around staring at the ground being absolutely unaware of their surroundings and constantly letting Han flip them over. that didn't even make sense

Once again some of that can be edited around or tinkered with digitally.

Pointing lazy trooper heads up is a (time consuming) doddle and who knows, maybe the 501st can be called in to do some more dignified trooperage as plate elements?

More rebels and Ewoks need to die in this battle too, for their victory to be believable the good guys have to take losses.

But the actual story element of the ground battle is essential to the tale in my opinion, it just has to be made less rubbish like all the other componants of this rather half arsed film.

ben_danger said:

maybe the more space battle we have the less ewok we would need. do you think that with the DSIII twist, the Imperial ambush on ednor wouldnt be necessary? so han actually blows the place up first time?

I think you still need it but with better Ewoks and less slapstick.

The ground battle/space battle/sabre duel trio needs to remain but it has to be improved so every element shines.

The action highlight of ANH was the space battle, the action highlights of ESB were a ground battle and a sabre duel this film ends with all three in a way we haven't seen before and that's necessary not only as the end of this trilogy but (unless George changes his mind) the end of the whole saga.

Ewoks which act like real believable primitive but brave creatures are fine, silly teddy bears with pebble eyes hitting themselves in the face are prototype Jar-Jars.

vaderios said:

I want new Death star room! More impressive and iconic!

-Angel

Get to work big fella!

I was trying to get the basic idea of the old one (as it's existing footage which can be manipulated) but tie it in with the colour scheme of the throne room (with the UV lit controls and the red and blue readouts).

But if you can do better please, please do because I love seeing your work.

I will also be trying my hand at making the Rebel briefing room look less like a plywood collection of left overs from the other movies.

I'd like to see your efforts in that area too.

While we are waiting your latest masterpiece here is a merge of both of our work (a bit rough around the edges) :

Here Jerjerrod realises what Piett's plan :

ben_danger said:

if this all happens, would it be appropriate to have imps celebrating on endor at the end too?

 

also, would the shield generator protect one or two death stars?

I would imagine that the shield would only protect the parked Death Star.

The other one has maneuverability on it's side (if it had the same amount of shield protection as the other one the Executor wouldn't even get close to it).

Getting two Death Stars built so quickly came at a price, one can't move at all but has sheild protection, one has only basic protection but can get out of the way.

The Rebels expect the Emperor to be on the protected one, being so confident at his stratagem working Palpatine puts himself on the get away quickish version hoping surprise would be a greater defence than any shield.

As for the Imperials celebrating it's been a long war and I imagine it will be a long time making the peace.

I don't think Piett would be the only officer to defect (and then out of no love for the Rebellion just utter miff with the boss men who go around choking and blowing up their best men).

So having them dancing with Ewoks would not be appropriate just yet.

Just look at the Stormtrooper killing spree they have on Coruscant when they get the good news.