Bingowings

JasonN said:

Bingowings said:

 In your removing of the Yoda it begs the question why leave Obi-Wan and Anakin alive?

Because Dooku is still a Jedi in these edits (need to rotoscope his lightsaber into a different color in that last preview) and he would not kill other Jedis without serious cause (he just wants to escape the planet, so wounding Obi-Wan and Anakin enough to not no longer pose a threat is enough for him)

Sorry, leaping between threads can cause confusion as to the mission statement of all these various edits.

My observations still stand though.

I know Jedi have used Force Lightning in the games and EU but we have never seen them do it in the actual films.

If he is using the Force for defence it makes more sense that he would try to knock Anakin out with a Force push. He is rather sadistic in his injuring of Obi-Wan (perhaps a slight swapping around of sabre stokes and removing a few close ups of Dooku could create the impression that those injuries as caused by him trying to limit damage rather than maximise pain).

There are a number of problems with this sequence as it stands and in both of your edits.

Some people argue that Force Lightning should be kept for Palpatine alone as a sign of his unique mastery of the dark side.

That aside if he can use that power against Yoda, why doesn't he use it against Obi-Wan or Anakin in ROTS (or indeed earlier here).

In your removing of the Yoda it begs the question why leave Obi-Wan and Anakin alive?

One solution is remove the force lightning and have Dooku throw Anakin against the wall with a Force push (briefly knocking him out as he does with Obi-Wan in ROTS).

Then keep Yoda in but remove the Force lightning elements so he throws objects at Yoda (Vader and Maul can do this so it makes sense that Dooku can) and finishes with trying to drop the column on Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku uses the distraction to escape.

That way Dooku's powers are consistent in both films (and it also leaves Force Lightning as a special power for Palpatine).

Monroville said:

Now I wasn't saying anything should be CHANGED; I was just pointing out that the front of the mask was (could be) attached to the rest of the helmet. Again, he is in a (hyperbolic) chamber, and no doubt the particular room and chamber are sterile and designed for his comfort, being that Darth did kind of design the place for himself.

Sorry about the misunderstanding but for the reasons I've already mentioned I do think it should be changed that doesn't mean that your airlock idea couldn't be in there too (he has many wounds which exposed may lead to later infection) but for story reasons having Vader caged behind that mask adds to the masking scene in ROTS and the unmasking scene in ROTJ (his son literally lets him out of the metal dungeon he walks around in).

Sevb32 said:

Sigh, next thing you know you'll want to delete the entire scene. Luke takes Vader's mask off in ROTJ outside his meditation chamber with no back up breathing device, which is what Vader was breathing thru in the the chamber, Vader died in ROTJ because the electricity ruined his suit and breathing devices. He was going to die anyway ("Nothing can stop that now.") but wanted to look on his son with his own eyes before he died. Kind of a miracle he survived ROTS.

No, I just want the mask kept on but the helmet lowered (we hear some sort of kthunk! so presumably it was held on with some sort of complicated clasp that Luke had to take time disconnecting) which is a better explaination than the EU one which would make Vader a bit of a push over cybernetically (something made worse by the acrobatics of General Grievous and his droids in ROTS).

Adding an Anti-Kthunk! to the Jedi sound mix is something worth thinking about (true Anakin was already dying before he took his mask off but the mask was prolonging his ebbing away life).

ben_danger said:

lol, are you from UK too bingowings? i think my uni (Plymouth) used to be a poly.

 

i meant college in US.

 

but thanks anyway!:)

 

all  meant to say, that if you are in education and are short of creative time, i share your pain.:P

Oh I get you, yes I'm in boggy Scotland but I went to Brighton Polytechnic and the Kent Institute Of Art And Design which was a Monotechnic.

The so called Ivy League University's like Princeton are more like the Oxbridge Universities.

Where as Universities like the University Of California are more like the former Techs as they don't use the collegiate system.

ben_danger said:

I'm guessing college is the same as University in the UK?

Thanks to Margaret Thatcher it mostly is.

There are some Technical colleges left (and Sixth Form colleges) but most colleges have been turned into Universities.

When I was in the system the divide was much stronger with Monotechnical and Polytechnical colleges as well as Municipal Colleges.

Colleges are also faculties within Universities.

DarkFather said:

Bingowings said:

Monroville said:

doubleofive said:

How does one get permission to use Vader's Personal Elevator?  How could Vader be caught unawares if his wall dings that someone is headed down to see him?  Just playing devil's advocate here (and I really like the hallway idea).

That one is easy: it's like the "basement" button in the Arkham Asylum elevator in BATMAN BEGINS.  Only someone with the password or the key can unlock the button and use it, whereupon when someone uses it an automatic signal is sent to Vader in his chamber (so he knows someone is coming).

Also in regards to Vader's chamber, I would personally choose the elevator with airlock.  Vader doesn't have to be 2 feet away from the bridge, being that with an elevator or hallway he could still be anywhere from 1 to 10 levels below the bridge and still within the command tower.  I think the "privacy" factor is a more pertinent reason to change the background behind Piett than anything else.

Also also remember that when Luke took off the helmet in JEDI, the front face mask was still in place, which means Vader would still be using his mechanical breathing apparatus to... well, breath.

EDIT - it looks like the front IS attached to the rest of the helmet, as you can kind of see here (you can see it better when watching the movie):

I agree, the mask should stay on but the helmet should be lowered even if it does make out that Vader is a really lazy git for not using his hands (maybe the helmet needs to be locked onto the collar and mask, Luke does take some time removing it in ROTJ).

 

I don't know that he could lower it properly by himself. The EU explains that he could barely lift his hands over his head, and seeing how the suit restrains him, makes sense.

 

That's a lousy design for a Sith Lord who gets into sabre battles, the EU is really daft at times.

Sevb32 said:

I hope their is no change to they way Vader's helmet is put on there. If you watch the scene u will see a breathing tube is moved up before the helmet/mask is lowered and covered his face, I believe he liked to have his helmet and mask off from time to time.

He may love to, I'm sure he would love to not have to wear the whole suit and be perfectly healed again but it weakens Luke's fear of taking the mask off if he can take it off in an unsealed environment and it adds to the importance of the unmasking scene if this is the first time he has been let out of the cage so to speak. 

Monroville said:

doubleofive said:

How does one get permission to use Vader's Personal Elevator?  How could Vader be caught unawares if his wall dings that someone is headed down to see him?  Just playing devil's advocate here (and I really like the hallway idea).

That one is easy: it's like the "basement" button in the Arkham Asylum elevator in BATMAN BEGINS.  Only someone with the password or the key can unlock the button and use it, whereupon when someone uses it an automatic signal is sent to Vader in his chamber (so he knows someone is coming).

Also in regards to Vader's chamber, I would personally choose the elevator with airlock.  Vader doesn't have to be 2 feet away from the bridge, being that with an elevator or hallway he could still be anywhere from 1 to 10 levels below the bridge and still within the command tower.  I think the "privacy" factor is a more pertinent reason to change the background behind Piett than anything else.

Also also remember that when Luke took off the helmet in JEDI, the front face mask was still in place, which means Vader would still be using his mechanical breathing apparatus to... well, breath.

EDIT - it looks like the front IS attached to the rest of the helmet, as you can kind of see here (you can see it better when watching the movie):

I agree, the mask should stay on but the helmet should be lowered even if it does make out that Vader is a really lazy git for not using his hands (maybe the helmet needs to be locked onto the collar and mask, Luke does take some time removing it in ROTJ).

dickalan said: 
(why can't we just post links??? this doesn't make sense to me)

A wee hint for you.

Ripplin said:

^I liked your briefing room, but honestly, I didn't have a problem with the original. The thing is, to me, it didn't have to look like the 'slapped together' places they'd used before so much because a lot of time had passed since the destruction of the first Death Star (meaning, uh...time to organize? New, richer allies?), and the fact that it's a big Mon Cal capital ship. I did like your mock-up of a darkened briefing room, but I liked the lit up one, too.

One thing that was quite cool about yours was the feeling of grandeur of the set. Very nice! The whole thing felt bigger and more important, so to speak. And using those mattes from The Black Hole was a nice touch. That movie really had some beautiful art design in it. :) I watched it recently for the first time in many years and I was impressed by a lot of it.

Thank you for your kind...very kind words of encouragement.

I really can't stand the set as it is and seeing the designs in The Art Of Return Of The Jedi just made me want to see something more like them.

I can't find any uploaded images around and taking my scanner out in my current home is like trying to get the Ark Of The Covenant out of Area 51.

vaderios said:

Bingowings said:

Golly!

I still think that the Naboo streets look a bit too mustardy as do the people (but the sky is lush), the rest however are a complete revelation it's like when they cleaned all the soot of the Sistine Chapel.

Probably for Rush i left the people yellowish. As for the street i liked the idea that the sun is hitting it.

Who made this movie? Pink Floyd?

-Angel

If I keep raining you with exclamatory praise I will run serious risk of sounding like Jake Lloyd but...er Woohoo!

I want to see this film.

I was thinking of storyboarding a sequence where Amidala's ship double's as a sub so she can meet Boss Nass at the Gungan City instead of the 'sacred place'.

If you want to beat me to the post please do (if a craft can survive fast than light travel why not double as a sub?).

Golly!

I still think that the Naboo streets look a bit too mustardy as do the people (but the sky is lush), the rest however are a complete revelation it's like when they cleaned all the soot of the Sistine Chapel.

It 's like a very different film (get rid of their stupid voices and I could grow to love those battle droids).

vaderios said:

Hmm that gives me an idea....

That's what I'm here for, oh and if you scroll back a few I did an equally rough rebel briefing room which was met with less than 100% applause. Could you have a butchers at that too and see if you can draw inspiration from it?

Cutting around them edges is a real pain in the arse when you are as ancient and myopic as I am.

Anyone who's seen my mockups before should know I'm not as slick as vaderios but here's a rough mockup of the skiff with little sails (and no I'm not cutting out all that rigging by hand ergo the roughness).

I threw in a few fat tentacles because I would love to see one of the skiffs get the classic giant squid treatment if it got too close (people being pulled overboard that sort of thing).

See beyond the roughness (and poor Chewie who seems like he might just get his head knocked off at any minute) and hopefully someone with a bit more panache could render it a bit better to get the idea of what I going for here.

vaderios said:

There is a missing window.

-Angel

What I don't understand is why the windows stop at that point at all.

Most of the buildings in Cloud City seem to be curved or round so if windows are justified on most of the wall in view, surely it should go all the way around (stopping at structural intersections and the like rather than where the camera was placed).

What made Star Wars interesting was the feeling of realistically lived in and live-inable fantasy realm (droids that had dings in them like well used vacuum cleaners etc). When Vader is first introduced he is framed like he is just there  and not posing for an oil painting and it feels more true somehow.

I like the idea of adding the windows (it makes sense after all) but there should be a feeling that the buildings were designed to work and live in rather than just look better in a particular frame.

InfoDroid said:

Bingowings said:

I think Sidious is more cunning than that.

He started the Naboo crisis as a ploy to get Anakin (who is all sweetness now) into the Jedi fold and to weaken the Chancellor so he can replace him.

He is just using poor Maul as a Sith calling card.

Bumping off Qui-Gon defending a corrupt Republic turns Dooku, splitting and weakening the Republic and Anakin gets rid of Dooku and strikes the final blow against an already weakened Jedi Order and dying Republic.

He doesn't want Anakin yet, he wants the Jedi to train him so that he can learn to hate them.

As it stands in the movies in their current form, that's true, Bingowings.  But how much more of a dynamic could you add by making Anakin the McGuffin of the story?

In ANH it was the Death Star plans.  In ESB it was Luke.  In the prequels, we don't really have one, unless you count "Syfo-Dyas" which never really went anywhere.

These movies need an Ark of the Covenant... Something for them to chase.

 

The object to chase down is the the Trade Federation Invasion (that's the Death Star of Episode One) everything else is dancing in the background, just as who the Emperor and Vader and Luke's father is and how could the Rebels ultimately win danced in the background of ANH.

Episode Two should be a character building exercise with the plot becoming more complex and the dancing moving further to the front (and that too needs major restructuring to come close to fulfilling that goal).

Episode Three is closer to what it should be (the apparent triumph of evil) but it too needs a lot of work on it.

It makes sense that Anakin should be the ultimate focus of all six films (just as Luke is the main focus of OT in isolation) but for Episode One to work it needs to get our heroes from point A to Point C via Point B.

At the moment it's point C to point B to Point A and back to Point C.

The first episode needs a more simple structure to draw people into the more complex weave to follow.

Little details like having The Chosen One Prophecy and Dooku touched upon add the same flavour as having Jabba and the Emperor hinted at in ANH, something that leads into the next episodes without destracting from the coherence of Episode One as a seperate unit but they shouldn't be at the centre when there already is target that is barely being hit.

Owen-Lars-Kenobi said:

Matt_Kenobi said:

doubleofive said:

The more I think about it, there really is no excuse for Vader to not have his helmet on.  It doesn't matter how long we make the hallway or anything.  How come people can just go in and open the door without knocking or anything like that?

 

 I would imagine that the helmet has to be uncomfortable at best, and he might want to have it off when he could.  Also, only a few, select, people would have access to that room.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Vader was experimenting with the force to see how long he could sustain himself withought the helmet for short periods of time.. or something to that effect.

In the "Shadows Of The Empire" novel Vader lies down in a iron lung booth so he can take all the gear off and keeps trying to use the Force to heal himself but it never works (I hate the idea myself I prefer to think of him locked in that thing all the time only getting his mask off in Jedi).

Presumably Vader likes his top officers to see him with his hat off as it's icky and adds to the general fear factor that Vader gives off.

Piett etc would then go off and spread it about just how hideous he is under that armour, which would grow more and more fearsome with each telling adding to his infamy.

It also shows that Vader as a sort of pride in his scars (like Darth Maul's tatts), an inverted vanity, each burn and cut was earned through fighting and he survives because of his will to do so.

Presumably people would have to have clearence to enter the chamber and only get there when Vader wanted them to, he's breaking in a new Admiral and seems to want to impress on Piett that he isn't a step on the ladder like Ozzel.

He is sitting there with his back to the door in a confined space with his scars showing almost tempting Piett to bump him off knowing he couldn't.

Like Palpatine tempting Luke by reminding him that he has no weapons and Luke could strike him down at any moment.

InfoDroid said:

Bingowings said:

Perhaps there should be a 'finding Anakin' subplot, another possibility is that the Jedi know that the Chosen One is out there somewhere. Qui-Gon has a premonition that assisting in the Naboo crisis is the key to finding this child and unlocking the meaning of the prophercy, which is clearly important to them and for the greater good (they just don't know how much damage has to be done before the galaxy receives the boon that the child represents). "I Have encountered a vergence in the Force", becomes "I sense a vergence in the Force".

Qui-Gon hasn't met Anakin yet but he foresees he will so the council send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to investigate the invasion and hopefully bring the Chosen One back with him.

Such a plot alteration would place Anakin further up the map of the story and foreshadow the rather wobbly way the Jedi deal with him in later life.

 

I've thought about going in that direction too.  Sidious sends Maul to Tatooine to look for this "vergence" he senses in the Force, instead of the Queen.  Meanwhile, the Council sends Qui-Gon.  It's a race between the Jedi and the Sith to find Anakin first.

 

I think Sidious is more cunning than that.

He started the Naboo crisis as a ploy to get Anakin (who is all sweetness now) into the Jedi fold and to weaken the Chancellor so he can replace him.

He is just using poor Maul as a Sith calling card.

Bumping off Qui-Gon defending a corrupt Republic turns Dooku, splitting and weakening the Republic and Anakin gets rid of Dooku and strikes the final blow against an already weakened Jedi Order and dying Republic.

He doesn't want Anakin yet, he wants the Jedi to train him so that he can learn to hate them.

This and the Fan-O-Matic could serve as interesting counterpoints to each other.

The fan edit community is almost like a laboratory for finding in what we were given the continuations of the saga most of us feel were not.

I look forward to seeing this and other projects of it's type at the very least to see what works and what doesn't.

Just as I look forward to the radical redux prequel thread baring fruit.

InfoDroid said:

The focus should be on Obi-Wan, everything could be through his perspective.  If you eliminate the "finding Anakin" story, then Obi-Wan is there for every major plot point.

I think there has already been an attempt to do a Obi-Wan focused edit of the whole prequel trilogy (or did I just dream it?).

That's fine as a short film project but pointless as Star Wars Episode One.

Besides in TPM there is no 'finding Anakin' story as such, he kind of gets picked up by the others going (the wrong way) to Coruscant.

Perhaps there should be a 'finding Anakin' subplot, another possibility is that the Jedi know that the Chosen One is out there somewhere. Qui-Gon has a premonition that assisting in the Naboo crisis is the key to finding this child and unlocking the meaning of the prophercy, which is clearly important to them and for the greater good (they just don't know how much damage has to be done before the galaxy receives the boon that the child represents). "I Have encountered a vergence in the Force", becomes "I sense a vergence in the Force".

Qui-Gon hasn't met Anakin yet but he foresees he will so the council send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to investigate the invasion and hopefully bring the Chosen One back with him.

Such a plot alteration would place Anakin further up the map of the story and foreshadow the rather wobbly way the Jedi deal with him in later life.

ben_danger said:

InfoDroid said:

the saga is generally considered "Anakin's story" by most

 

i agree the total ani cut is a bit severe, but could the focus be shifted onto padme?

 

what if the PT is about padme reacting to anakin, and the OT is about luke reacting to vader?

Once again there isn't much more that can be squeezed out of Padme in TPM that doesn't involve putting in more Anakin and Natty is almost as bad and at times is just as bad as Jake and Hayden in these films.

A well paced plot can lift even the most leaden of performances so my instincts tell me it is better to concentrate on shifting the order of events around to tell a less meandering story.

Amidala's aim is to free her people so that should be a straight line and not a spirograph drawing.

Any news about this interesting alternate universe edit idea?

With all my thinking about 3 Death Stars, I'd almost forgot about the opposite direction.

InfoDroid said:

ben_danger said:

i know this sounds utterly stupid, but one of my friends suggested TPM would have been better without anakin. i think he meant that the character wasnt that strong. but what IF ani wasnt even in it? what if he just appears in II onwards? i have no idea how and what it would entail, but perhaps the smarter forum members can ponder such an idea.

 

 That's an idea that's so outrageous, that it just might work.  Since the saga is generally considered "Anakin's story" by most, I don't think anyone (including me) has ever seriously considered cutting his story out of TPM.  Visualizing it though, it's a definite possibility.  I think it would work better in a "prologue" type arrangement though than in a standalone episode, but yeah, definitely something interesting to try.

--ID

Less Jake Lloyd is always a good idea and how much more less can you get but none? None less.

But if you did that what would you have left?

It is Episode One, unless you want to go for a totally new PT (see Animated thread) and Anakin is now the main focus of the saga and there really isn't much material in TPM to shift the focus elsewhere.

There are plenty of examples of how little near orphan Annie can be made more tolerable so deleting him when there is almost as equally bad material elsewhere in there to be repaired too does seem more harsh than radical.

Episode One is a different animal to all the films that follow it.

In an ideal world it would be "The Hobbit" to the rest of the films "Lord Of The Rings".

The story really needs to be restructured in the same way that Jedi does to make it start and end with a bang and introduce the main characters in a lightish/fun way with moments of darkness which hint at the shadow that is to fall in the rest of the episodes.

That's why I suggested starting the film with the invasion of Naboo while Amidala is on Coruscant, that way she has to fight to get back (like the heroes have to go through trials to get to Yavin and save it in ANH) and have her ship attacked on the way so she has to land on Tatooine.

Some of the dullness of TPM comes from the going back and forth between Naboo, Tatooine and Coruscant with Naboo throne room scenes and Council and Senate meetings bogging it all down.

If the heroes went from Coruscant to Tatooine to Naboo, the linear flow of the story would give it better pacing as an introduction to the Star Wars universe.

doubleofive said:

Bingowings said:

He could come down in a little lift which would make him even more isolated.

But a lift wouldn't show off more of the interior... :-(

No but it would suggest more by saying that Piett and Veers had to go down many levels to get to Vader's otherwise isolated chamber.

Do not underestimate the power of imagination to fill in the blanks.

doubleofive said:

 

I'm going to have to agree with Vaderios and others.  It's a 8000-19000 meter (5-12 mile!) long ship, but from the reused hallways it looks like the entire movie takes place in about 2000 square feet.  We never see anything from the interior to make this look like the huge ship it is.  Maybe a change in hallway outside Vader's personal bunk would help that out.

And if there's all those officers outside, why couldn't they tell Vader about the energy shield?  I guess that Vader doesn't recieve calls in there, that's why someone had to go tell him personally, then he calls Ozzel from there.  It would help Veers' (right?) nervousness if there is no one around to help him if Vader decides to kill him.

He could come down in a little lift which would make him even more isolated.