Bingowings

rcb said:

i'm srry, but revenge is never used in the jedi code, so no changing the title please. i'm putting that title into carbon freeze

If the prequels and ROTJ had never happened I might be convinced to agree.

But really Palpatine is right about the Jedi, they are almost exactly the same.

They both use deception, violence and slavery to further their aims.

The Jedi code is followed dogamatically and is morally dubious to say the least (child military indoctrination, cultish family disconnection etc).

We hold a lot on trust with the Jedi.

Darth Sidious/Palpatine seizes ultimate power, promising to return it when democracy is safe (Mace Windu and Yoda contemplate the same action) we know that Palpatine never intends to hand over power but if Mace had been successful do we know for sure that the Jedi would be any different?

This makes for entertaining reading :

http://www.soundedit.com.au/swaggers/jed.html

I'm transfering the basic idea over here from the Prequel Radical Redux Thread.

If the prequels get a title change I vote for returning ROTJ to Revenge Of The Jedi it's a much better title and the Jedi are clearly not as holy as they would like us to believe (Jedi not gaining revenge is almost as bad as Han not shooting first).

I waited for Revenge Of The Jedi for three years (after Mark Hamill announced the title on Blue Peter while promoting ESB), saw trailers with that name and even purchased toys with it on the packaging.

What better way of saying that the film has been restored to the point of being a fitting conclusion of what started in 1977 than to give it back it's original title.

Re: Janskeet's freezing chamber posts.

It's possible that the Executor might have something like a freezing chamber (it's a big ship and the process may come in handy) but it adds layers of unnecessary plot complications to wade through.

Does the duel between Luke and Vader take place on the Executor?

If so how does Luke escape?

How do any of them escape?

Our heroes only escaped the Death Star because Vader wanted them to and he really wants to capture Luke (the whole film has been about this).

Also the Executor is at least as big if not bigger than Cloud City so the mock up is really out.

brash_stryker said:

Bingowings said:

Really it makes sense to swap the revenge and return around so TPM becomes Return Of The Sith (the Sith clearly return from being thought of as extinct) and the final episode returns to being Revenge Of The Jedi (despite what Lucas may say about Jedi being above such things the Jedi clearly had their arses handed to them in Episode III and return the favour in Episode VI.)

There is a Clone Wars TV DVD called  A Galaxy Divided and it evokes British Civil War dramas like By The Sword Divided.

So I'd like A Galaxy Divided  to be the Episode II title and The Shadow Falls is such a great title it really should be used at it would make a very good Episode III title.

Hi there mangojango, some really interesting ideas there, glad to have you onboard.

Sorry but I hate this idea, and I can understand why Revenge was not a suitable title in terms of relating to the Jedi. They're guardians of peace and justice. Revenge just doesn't suit them if you ask me. Personally I like Revenge of the Sith as a title, even if who the Sith are, and what they're getting revenge for is never fully explained. Star Wars needs a bit of mystery IMO. It's explaining everything that gave rise to Midichlorians. Urgh.

 

I think Palpatine (like Prince Prospero in Masque Of The Red Death) makes a good case for the Jedi and the Sith not being that different.

There's nothing worse than a villain who knows he is evil and the heroes do paint themselves a little more clear cut heroic than they actually are.

I actually think Revenge Of The Jedi is a much better title than Return Of The Jedi or Revenge Of The Sith it even sounds better and Lucas's rethink of the title was the beginning of the sort of thinking that lead to Greedo shooting first.

brash_stryker said:

Bingowings said:

The clones don't attack and we haven't a clue what the Sith want revenge for, at least there is a phantomy menace in TPM.

Phantom Menace is the only title that makes any sense, but Revenge of the Sith is the only one that feels Star Warsy. *dilemma*

 

Really it makes sense to swap the revenge and return around so TPM becomes Return Of The Sith (the Sith clearly return from being thought of as extinct) and the final episode returns to being Revenge Of The Jedi (despite what Lucas may say about Jedi being above such things the Jedi clearly had their arses handed to them in Episode III and return the favour in Episode VI.)

There is a Clone Wars TV DVD called  A Galaxy Divided and it evokes British Civil War dramas like By The Sword Divided.

So I'd like A Galaxy Divided  to be the Episode II title and The Shadow Falls is such a great title it really should be used at it would make a very good Episode III title.

Hi there mangojango, some really interesting ideas there, glad to have you onboard.

It might be nice to have the Naboo communication satellite network based on Sputnik 1 (it already looks a bit Naboo like all it needs is a lick of paint).

It might also be nice to see them launch some fighters as soon as the Federation fleet enters the system only to have them blown out of the sky.

The clones don't attack and we haven't a clue what the Sith want revenge for, at least there is a phantomy menace in TPM.

brash_stryker said:

Bingowings said:

brash_stryker said:

I agree, but is this doable?

It would depend on how much Palpatine after the Mace battle you want to use.

The declaration of the Empire scene should be a doddle (there is plenty of sequences of pre-change Palpatine on the Senate podium to adapt and you could keep his lips pretty much the way they are so lip sync shouldn't be a problem).

Some people would like to remove or truncate drastically the Yoda Vs Palpatine duel and even after his turn his cowl covers a multidude of latex sins.

It would be great to see what results would come from people attempting such a task.

 

So what about the scene where Anakin "turns" (and I use that term loosely) and Palpatine becomes his master? Would this be cut?

 

Once again that would be up to the individual editor.

Edits where the revelation of Darth Vader's identity is maintained might want to go down that route.

This thread is for ideas, solutions to the implication of those ideas are welcome too but really it's for putting out possibilities which editors can try to make work.

Undoing the hamfisted nature of Sidious/Palpatine is revealed in the theatrical cut would definately be one of the more difficult projects (because you can't get Ian McDiamid to reshoot everything in more subtle makeup).

I really thought that Lucas was going that way too when I saw the progression between Palpatine in TPM, AOTC and most of ROTS (then suddenly he has a Halloween mask on).

Another massive screw up by the Lucasfilm gang.

brash_stryker said:

I agree, but is this doable?

It would depend on how much Palpatine after the Mace battle you want to use.

The declaration of the Empire scene should be a doddle (there is plenty of sequences of pre-change Palpatine on the Senate podium to adapt and you could keep his lips pretty much the way they are so lip sync shouldn't be a problem).

Some people would like to remove or truncate drastically the Yoda Vs Palpatine duel and even after his turn his cowl covers a multidude of latex sins.

It would be great to see what results would come from people attempting such a task.

EyeShotFirst said:

Palpatine really needs work. I hate the way he looks in ROTS. The makeup people went way too far. Palpatine didn't necessarily need to be all deformed. I could see it as he was old and his powers were keeping him alive which in turn made him old and wrinkly. It looks crappy. I used the same approach ady did for ESB R. I plopped the ROTJ eyes on the rest of the face and blended it. Plus I undersaturated it for flow with the rest of the saga.

As I posted earlier I'd make the transformation even more subtle:

I wish there was a way to show the Palpatine transformation in a more subtle way (he has almost two decades of evil to turn into the pale prune face we see in ROTJ).

It would be more acceptable to me if the lightning accident doesn't happen at all but he slowing becomes consumed by the dark forces he is using.

NOBODY expects the Dark Lords Of The Sith! Our chief weapon is hate...hate and fear...fear and hate.... Our two weapons are fear and hate...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, hate, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, hate.... I'll come in again....

Sometimes less is more but not always, so it would depend how it worked in an edit.

Having him already killing children (in a moment of insanity which he deeply regrets at that point) makes it easier to believe he might do it again and be more outwardly callous about it in the future (as he becomes desensitised to the horror of what he is doing).

We have no evidence that he has gone that far other than his confession.

His choice of confessor needs to change though, Palpatine makes much more sense, Padme falling in love with a self confessed child murderer makes no sense at all.

Palpatine keeping the information under his cowl does.

Alternatively you could keep the prophecy but flag it up before they meet Anakin.

Keep him a slave but reduce what he does to something a bit more within the realms of belief (no building Threepio and possibly getting the pod by some other means but Anakin does it up for Qui-Gon).

Turn Anakin's frustration more onto Mace specifically and the Council generally (and less onto Obi-Wan) make Obi-Wan into the one person who always backs him up when everyone else is cautious of him to the point where Anakin's frustations seem more legitimate.

Reduce the Padme crush so that he only becomes seriously interested in her after his mother dies (he fancies her and likes her but realises there is no future in it) but when his mother dies everything is turned upside down. Padme sees him at his most vulnerable and he sees her at her most supportive and this is where their feelings for each other become more than an infatuation.

Keep his massacre of the Tuscans but make that his turn to the darkside moment. Have him confide in Palpatine not Padme and keep it as a dirty secret between the two of them.

That way Palpatine knows about his ambition to keep people alive before ROTS, something he could use as a carrot for later.

The stick could be the knowledge of what he has done (married in secret and murdering children all be it a moment of justified insanity).

That way Anakin could be almost blackmailed into doing what he does rather than just opting to do it at a whim.

It's still the same story that we got in the theatrical versions but nudged into a more plausible mode.

Good guy does something evil in a moment of stress and is manipulated to do things worse and worse until he is so far down he can't see a way out.

TheBoost said:

Bingowings said:

At least in this scenerio he is acting consistantly with his character (he is locating people or information for a price not just acting as a bodyguard for Jabba) as seen in ESB and actually moves the plot along so there is a slim possibility if the case is well made even he might run with the idea.

 

 How is selling information as a secret agent double-dealing courier more in line with his character (which from ESB is a bounty hunter who barely speaks) than being the hired gun for a criminal he apparently already worked for?

Which seems more "in character": Delivering his target to the drug lord he works for, then hanging out at the drug lords palace until needed again, or delivering his target to the drug dealer he works for, then turning around, becoming a secret agent for the Empire, and pulling off an extremly elaborate piece of espionage?

A bounty hunter doesn't have to bring in his prey to claim the bounty (they can be hired just to trace them) in the described scenerio he is being hired to trace the movements of the Emperor by the Rebels and the Rebels by Vader (so he is being a bounty hunter).

The Death Star location is part of the information of where the Emperor will be.

His double-dealing nature was previously shown in ESB where he was paid both by Vader and Jabba for the same job (each employer having different motives for his employment).

He doesn't have to speak at all in this arrangement (he just has to be seen working in the background) so his role would be even more descrete than in ESB.

He takes the work and the pay, what happens to the individuals he is hired to trace (and how he manages to trace them) means nothing to him.

Boba Fett in ESB will work for anyone who pays him in ROTJ and ANH:SE he becomes just another lacky of Jabba (this reduces both the character and the universe he operates in).

Forgive the roughness of these mock-ups but (and I appreciate how difficult it will be) the helmets of the Rebel pilots need more than just an insignia colour change.

Ady recognised this when he changed the insignia from blue to red but the clean helmet squadron don't appear in the battle so it's still kind of odd that get such prominant screen time.

rcb said:

Bingowings said:

Here (for those who have yet to see it) is Dave's video mockup of the Fett subplot, doing what he does best, getting paid twice for the same job and not getting killed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aOUYhUTUY

 

 the thing is, since i'm so use to hearing this line, is that mon mothma said the data was brought to them by bothan spy's. its too hard to imagine bobba doing it, kinda corny. hey, if u wanna scene of him leaving, go ahead.

I imagine you are very familiar with every element of ROTJ that people would like to change the trick is to image it from the point of view of someone who has never seen the film.

That's the only way to look at any of these changes otherwise you might as well not change a thing.

There are possibly millions of people who if shown Ady's ESB:R trailer will not realise just how much (if anything) has changed and yet own the DVD's and have seen them many times.

There will be some who think that's the film as it was when it came out in 1980.

EyeShotFirst said:

I bet ady is just gonna cut Boba so I wont be getting my hopes up for Lucas esque additions.

For one thing this isn't an Ady only thread so if he doesn't do it someone else might.

Also his main objection to Boba Fett being in ROTJ seems to be that he isn't doing what he is meant to be doing and is only put there as a fan service and to tie up all the loose ends.

At least in this scenerio he is acting consistantly with his character (he is locating people or information for a price not just acting as a bodyguard for Jabba) as seen in ESB and actually moves the plot along so there is a slim possibility if the case is well made even he might run with the idea.

It's not really a Lucas style addition (there is a fair deal of subtraction envolved) this idea changes the plot and adds a layer of suspense into the film that wasn't there before.

The changes Lucas made were mostly superficial but frequently upset the tone of the films rather than enhancing them.

Mouse said:

I've been reading this thread and I'm amazed at all the great ideas that are in it!

 

Anyhoo I've always wondered what Vader is thinking when the Emperor  is engulfing Luke with the Force lightening, theres obviousley something going on in his mind and something that triggers his destiny to do away with Palpatine, soooo how about inserting some flashback dialogue ie

 

 

---

 

Queen Amidala: You're a slave? 
Anakin: I'm a person and my name is Anakin

And at that point Vader turns on Palpatine.

 

Just an idea..

Hello there mouse nice to have you onboard, for various reasons many of us here are anti-flashback, flashforward but there was a line that was originally in the ROTJ duel that was removed or not recorded but may be reconstructed.

Luke at some point said, "I will not become a slave to the Dark Side".

If this could be put back in it would underline how Vader was born a slave and has remained a slave all his life without the need for a flashback.

Here (for those who have yet to see it) is Dave's video mockup of the Fett subplot, doing what he does best, getting paid twice for the same job and not getting killed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aOUYhUTUY

I too wish I had a TARDIS so I could strap a HD camera to the BBC cameras and have lovely high quality footage of all the Doctor Who episodes the BBC wiped (and erase Michael Grade from history).

But this isn't the Doctor Who Revisited thread.

Watching the chappy building the model brought back memories of building the MPC kit which my dad suprised me with when I was a sickly little boy.

I must be a related to the Skywalkers because I have very little patience and you really need it to do model kits.

I almost set the house on fire burning little blast marks into the thing.

It looked good when it was finished though.

I was too young to make a joke about the boastful sticker on the box :

EyeShotFirst said:

vaderios said:

You remind me the utopic captain nemo who had luxury in Nautilus...

ITs a submarine damn it haha.

So the death star should have that metal look.

It works with the viewer's minds too.

 

-Angel

It matches the rest of the death star to. I think that they are kind of stupid keeping him in a high rise tower. It wouldnt take much to take that thing down.

 

My mockup a few pages back was a bit Vernesque maybe I should add some candle sconces and a pipe organ ;-)

The Golden Idol said:

HotRod said:

rcb said:

 me three.

P O

What's P O? Piss off?

 

or Post Office (the Black Hole that model space craft dissapear into).

Only joking three P O  (Threepio) geddit?

BarBar Jinkx said:

I still say an uncampifying filter needs to be used on his over the top lines in RotS

 

Certainly getting rid of the "No, no, no" and the "Gooooood" bits would save some of this scene I would prefer a sudden morph suggesting that he has had to call on the full strength of his powers to defeat Windu which screws him up instead of the lightning.

There are some very nice photos here :

http://www.discovermoab.com/

There's a very nice double arch in there which would be fun to work on.

With a bit of recolouring these would make nice Geonosian landscapes too.

Type "Mesa arch" into the search engine of your choice and you will get some nice images to work from in a variety of light conditions.

It was never designed as a throne room it's just a control tower he's taken over for the duration of his stay but you think they would have rolled out the red carpet and tarted the place up a bit (maybe moving some of his art collection over from Coruscant) it's more gold/copper Jules Vernesque here would love to see someone else have a go at this sort of look.