BedeHistory731

Dek Rollins said:

Broom Kid said:

I don’t know that I agree that ‘toxic’ needs to stop being used as a descriptor, if only because it CAN apply very well… the problem is that a huge part of WHY it applies is because people DO approach disposable conversations with strangers about space movies with such misplaced energy and importance that it ends up warping perspective, to the point where real toxicity can occur. But usually it’s a pretty long walk between “jeez, that guy is annoying” to “jeez, that guy is TOXIC.”

But even then, that doesn’t mean anyone here can paint a really accurate picture of anyone else’s personality based solely on the very small, focused, and mostly inconsequential (and anonymous) glimpses being given through “Star Wars” talks. Most everyone here has a whole LIFE outside of liking Star Wars that is bigger, and way more important than this, and we’ll never really know about it beyond the surface. Toxicity can be a temporary condition, too, and if you find yourself getting upset at other people’s opinions on Star Wars, in my experience, that just means its time to stop and reflect on what you’re putting into this, and what you’re getting out of it, and whether there’s an imbalance that needs to be tended to on YOUR end.

That word is almost always used when someone has a negative opinion about something someone else likes. DE calls ROTJ bad, he must be TOXIC. It’s meaningless at this point. Anyone who calls someone else toxic immediately looks like someone I don’t want to talk to anymore, even if that isn’t really the case.

OK, I apologize for using that word and rushing to judgment.

DuracellEnergizer said:

The Motion Picture and The Search for Spock are both underrated. And both are better than any of the TNG movies.

Caveat: Special Longer Edition of The Motion Picture. It’s got more character scenes.

I’d argue that The Final Frontier is a tad underappreciated and that’s it’s probably the best of the “bad” Trek films. The TNG films bar First Contact really blow, while I’m not keen on the Kelvin movies. At least The Final Frontier can be used as an argument for auteur theory, what with Shatner presenting “his” vision of the series and his understanding of the characters.

ray_afraid said:

Duracell is good people, Bede.
You seem to be too. I think you just got the wrong idea.

Fair enough. I’ve just had bad experiences on fan forums. It leads me to lash out.

DuracellEnergizer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Your posts reek of toxicity.

Forced to live in a capitalist hellscape can do that to a person.

Whenever I read your posts here, the general attitude is that you think you’re better than people who like media that you dislike.

If I felt that, I’d say that. Don’t mistake my contempt for the art for comptempt for those who like the art.

You may have some good points, but I find you utterly insufferable.

Very well.

Point one: fair, but you don’t have to take it out on us. There are healthier ways to handle it.

Point two: I firmly remember you belittling people who liked SC. 38 Reimagined. You apologized, but I thought it was a true indication of your character. That may be unfair, but your posts have such a smug sense of superiority to them that I believe it.

DuracellEnergizer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Shopping Maul said:

ray_afraid said:

Shopping Maul said:

ray_afraid said:

Shopping Maul said:

I still maintain that Luke didn’t actually save the galaxy - a fact that renders his entire ‘new hope’ journey somewhat meaningless to me.

Luke was the only one who could get through to Vader. Vader was the only one who could destroy the Emperor.
Without Luke, there’s no hope. He saved the galaxy by redeeming his father. (or, by Returning the Jedi, if you will)

I also hate the sister thing. Luke should have gone off alone in search of “The Other” at the end.

I’ve beat this drum several times in these forums, but the best way to explain my unease wth Luke’s actions is to boil it down to the following - what exactly did Luke tell everyone at the Ewok after-party?

If he’d said “I defeated the Emperor” that would’ve been a lie. He didn’t beat the Emperor. He surrendered and circumstances luckily prevailed in a way that led to Palpatine’s demise. That’s it. What Luke actually did was a) refuse to fight (after a brief and justifiable tantrum), b) spare the life of the second most evil guy in the galaxy because…well, he’s dad, and c) declare himself a Jedi and throw his weapon aside. All of this, by the way, while countless innocent beings were being slaughtered outside.

He probably said “I redeemed my evil father, Just like I told Leia I would & he killed the Emperor.”
All of those actions, or inactions, saved the galaxy. *shrug

And he would’ve found himself hanging from the nearest redwood. How many rebels would’ve lost loved ones and/or had their lives ruined under the jackboots of Vader and his buddies? How thrilled would such folk be to hear that, while Palpatine was killing people by the hundreds with his new weapon, Luke was hiding under a staircase because he didn’t want to lose his temper and risk Vader not going to Jedi Heaven?

Nor can I see why anyone would even consider the possibility of a new Jedi Order based on these actions.

That’s EU anyway. Nowhere in the film does Luke even hint towards restarting anything.
[EDIT- I guess the ST says that Luke went on to do whatever, but that’s not in this film]

Yoda says “pass on what you have learned”. The implication is that Luke will go on teach younglings how to hide under staircases in order to spare the bad guys.

Okay, now it just seems like you’re deliberately misinterpreting the movie. The message the movie was trying to get across was that everyone can change, not that you should hide under a staircase or whatever you said. And the whole “war criminal” thing doesn’t apply, because Star Wars shouldn’t be taken that seriously. It’s a mythic fantasy, not a true story.

Indeed. Shopping Maul’s take sounds like a CinemaSins-level bad-faith interpretation of the movie, fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point about redemption and Luke’s connection to his father. It’s not meant to be a strict reflection of reality, nor should we want it to be. This is a fantasy story, not gritty realism.

Sounds like the best way to interpret ROTJ. The movie isn’t worthy of good faith.

I beg to differ. Your posts reek of toxicity. Whenever I read your posts here, the general attitude is that you think you’re better than people who like media that you dislike. You may have some good points, but I find you utterly insufferable.

Shopping Maul said:

imperialscum said:

Shopping Maul said:

I’ve said this before but a simple dialogue tweak would fix this. If Luke had said to Leia “I have to turn myself in, I’m endangering the mission. The Sith can feel my presence and know that we’re here. I’ll allow myself to be captured - Vader will take me to the Emperor himself and I will make sure he’s on the Death Star when the attack is launched”.

That would just make Luke a “captain obvious” to those in the audience who cannot make 1+1=2 on their own. On the other hand, it would ruin things in-universe. Luke probably knew and accepted that it was a suicide mission and that he would most likely die if the Death Star was blown off (whether or not Vader was redeemed). Why the hell would he tell such a thing to Leia and make her upset before such a crucial mission she was about to undertake? The way he handled it was very wise; he did not lie but he did not tell her that he is going off on a suicide mission either.

I’m not sure telling her that the guy who tortured her and stood by while her homeworld was obliterated was a) her father and b) strangely worthy of a crack at ‘the good side’, was much better than Luke taking on a heavy mission.

I must be the audience who can’t add 1+1. Luke’s only stated mission is the redemption of Vader. While insane violence is occurring outside, Luke’s primary focus is not losing his cool and avoiding a confrontation with Vader. When he finally kicks Vader’s butt - rather than follow through by doing anything proactive in terms of the war - Luke throws his weapon aside and declares himself a Jedi. People are being incinerated by a super-laser by order of the man standing before him and Luke chooses to disarm himself and declare his own enlightenment. How is any of this remotely helpful to the thousands of sentient beings suffering at the hands of the Imperial juggernaut? What in all this makes anyone think that Jedi Knights are a good idea, especially in a war situation?

Indeed you are the audience member that can’t add 1+1. I’m pretty sure Leia knew that Tarkin and The Emperor had more to do with what happened to her and her homeworld than Vader did (acting within their orders, not questioning them due to extensive brainwashing/basically being their slave). Remember how Vader criticized the Death Star at the meeting? If he was calling the shots, Tarkin and The Emperor wouldn’t have their plaything.

Also, for the “Luke could save so many lives thing,” what’s to say that killing The Emperor will stop the battle? The Star Destroyers, Death Star personnel, and Endor ground troops will still act under their initial orders to fight. Whatever Luke does, many will die in the fight. What he will do really doesn’t impact the battle outside and that’s fine.

Again, I maintain that you’re engaging in bad-faith criticism that really misses the point of the movie and the series, so I respectfully disagree with you.

The best Bond films are the ones that look at Fleming’s books and say: “Nah, mate.” Die Another Day excluded, diverting from Fleming produces the best stuff, IMO. The Moore era, GE-TWINE, and even big chunks of Goldfinger are the best that the series has to offer, IMO.

The last two Bond movies I truly liked were TWINE and Spectre. The sooner the series deviates from Fleming, the better.

StarkillerAG said:

Shopping Maul said:

ray_afraid said:

Shopping Maul said:

ray_afraid said:

Shopping Maul said:

I still maintain that Luke didn’t actually save the galaxy - a fact that renders his entire ‘new hope’ journey somewhat meaningless to me.

Luke was the only one who could get through to Vader. Vader was the only one who could destroy the Emperor.
Without Luke, there’s no hope. He saved the galaxy by redeeming his father. (or, by Returning the Jedi, if you will)

I also hate the sister thing. Luke should have gone off alone in search of “The Other” at the end.

I’ve beat this drum several times in these forums, but the best way to explain my unease wth Luke’s actions is to boil it down to the following - what exactly did Luke tell everyone at the Ewok after-party?

If he’d said “I defeated the Emperor” that would’ve been a lie. He didn’t beat the Emperor. He surrendered and circumstances luckily prevailed in a way that led to Palpatine’s demise. That’s it. What Luke actually did was a) refuse to fight (after a brief and justifiable tantrum), b) spare the life of the second most evil guy in the galaxy because…well, he’s dad, and c) declare himself a Jedi and throw his weapon aside. All of this, by the way, while countless innocent beings were being slaughtered outside.

He probably said “I redeemed my evil father, Just like I told Leia I would & he killed the Emperor.”
All of those actions, or inactions, saved the galaxy. *shrug

And he would’ve found himself hanging from the nearest redwood. How many rebels would’ve lost loved ones and/or had their lives ruined under the jackboots of Vader and his buddies? How thrilled would such folk be to hear that, while Palpatine was killing people by the hundreds with his new weapon, Luke was hiding under a staircase because he didn’t want to lose his temper and risk Vader not going to Jedi Heaven?

Nor can I see why anyone would even consider the possibility of a new Jedi Order based on these actions.

That’s EU anyway. Nowhere in the film does Luke even hint towards restarting anything.
[EDIT- I guess the ST says that Luke went on to do whatever, but that’s not in this film]

Yoda says “pass on what you have learned”. The implication is that Luke will go on teach younglings how to hide under staircases in order to spare the bad guys.

Okay, now it just seems like you’re deliberately misinterpreting the movie. The message the movie was trying to get across was that everyone can change, not that you should hide under a staircase or whatever you said. And the whole “war criminal” thing doesn’t apply, because Star Wars shouldn’t be taken that seriously. It’s a mythic fantasy, not a true story.

Indeed. Shopping Maul’s take sounds like a CinemaSins-level bad-faith interpretation of the movie, fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point about redemption and Luke’s connection to his father. It’s not meant to be a strict reflection of reality, nor should we want it to be. This is a fantasy story, not gritty realism.

I just happen to unapologetically love ROTJ and the way it ended the trilogy. I like the sister reveal, the way the redemption plays out, and the progression of the battle. I’ve never once had a problem with it. Quite frankly, one of the main characters dying would’ve ruined it.

It’s ok to have a happy ending to the OT. It’s ok that it’s not dark like ESB.

Yeah, using Blade Runner stock footage (that’s been heavily doctored to hide the source) would be excellent! Shying away from the more recognizable buildings, while also incorporating the Jedi Temple (either stock footage or a model that’s been doctored a bit) and other PT places would be advisable. If not, models or digital matte paintings in the style of McQuarrie’s art for Had Abbadon would help.

More links are here

That looks amazing! I do agree that a toned-down shield might be better.

ray_afraid said:

Will the new bluray be used to make any further changes to ESB:R, or will it remain as is?
(aside from the 1 or 2 things Ady’s pointed out)

It’d be nice to have an alternate audio track that restores the unused music cues. I’ve considered making that edit myself.

ChainsawAsh said:

I for one would love to see Hayden’s ghost with his ROTS outfit + robe in both ROTJ and TROS, especially if we can get a less creepy take of him for ROTJ.

Agreed! Maybe a Frankenhayden could work here so that he both looks at Obi-Wan and gives a friendly face. It needs to look natural, not like a glaringly obvious addition.

I’m not opposed to lightening the color of his outfit a little, as the series really does play up the whole “light colors good, dark colors conflicted” angle (i.e., Luke’s dark costume comes partially undone, revealing white underneath).

My cutlist would go something like this:

• get rid of the first jealous Han scene, then trim the second one (“He wasn’t I can feel it” Han looks confused “He’s my brother.”)
• dump a bunch of 3PO’s “captain obvious” lines
• tone down Ewok cutesiness
• give Boba Fett a better death scene, or just cut/roto him out of the movie
• cut the music number - we go straight from the dungeon to the reveal of Boushh and Chewie
• the stuff SSWR suggested with the Endor arrival
• beakless Sarlacc (the beak just screams '90s CGI)
• maybe restore the lightsaber-building deleted scene
• do some reorganizing of the battle scenes
• end at the pyre scene, with Luke seeing Anakin’s spirit (mixing ROTS and other Hayden roles for the desired footage - or Shaw, really depends on TROS edits)

The most important cut for me, IMO:

• get rid of the crying Rancor keeper - I’ve hated it since I first watched the movie and would be happy to see it gone

ChainsawAsh said:

RE Anakin:

Using Christensen in TROS might actually convince me to accept Christensen in ROTJ. Though I’d rather see a fanmade ROTJ Christensen ghost that improves on the hack job from 2004.

Also, I…really don’t like aged Hayden in any capacity.

While I liked aged Hayden (as an option), I do agree with the overall sentiment. A more convincing ROTJ Hayden with a happier expression on his face would be get me to enjoy it.

However, I don’t find Shaw to be a “masturbatory fan fantasy,” (anymore than the rest of TROS, anyway). It’s very much a fan desire to see something that fits with the OOT more than the SE. Heck, it’d probably win over a bunch of people.

Anakin Starkiller said:

But don’t you think it’s strange to show a version of Anakin that we’ve never seen?

Tell that to the majority on this forum who for some reason insist on using Shaw.

Well, he actually looks like he’s supposed to be there and has a friendlier expression on his face. Also, it’s a de-facto ROTJ change to bring back Shaw’s ghost, because most of us prefer the OOT.

I like the aged-up Hayden with his ROTS hair (albeit grayed a little). It might help him fit in with his son a bit more. Provided that a similar injection of Hayden stock footage appears in ROTJ (like the previous example and what RougeLeader said), it would work.

However, I’m totally open to having young Anakin (but with the light-colored robes in his closeup) or Shaw (done in the style of Obi-Wan, a photo atop body stock footage). Young Anakin works contextually as well, as he’s appearing in front of Palpatine as the man who he manipulated into evil - he’s young again while Palpatine looks older than ever! Old Anakin worked in the context of the ROTJ ending, as he’s appearing to Luke/Leia as an uninjured version of his masked form. My headcanon is that ghost Anakin can change his appearance depending on the context.

I’d prefer it if the green crystal was Qui-Gon’s, with Qui-Gon being the only prequel Jedi with a green blade. That way, it seems like a “full circle” kind of moment.

I’d go for either 2 or 3 here.

I’m really loving it! The sync and the reactions are damn-near perfect.

Have you thought about attempting a Shaw Anakin version?

I really like it! If we want just Anakin appearing, I’d say this aged-up Hayden works pretty well. Any shots of him pleased from ROTS should suffice (since the unemotive Anakin from the '04/'19SE looks dreadful).

If we’re using the original “three spirits” shots, it’d be a worthwhile experiment to try out different Anakin footage in those two shots. It could either be a new head on Shaw’s body or aged-up/Shaw-merged Hayden’s entire body.

I like the morphing idea between Hayden and Shaw, if only because we only really have two shots of Shaw from ROTJ that’d be appropriate. I’ve headcannon’ed that Anakin’s ghost can shape-shift depending on who he’s around (Shaw for Luke after seeing him without the mask, Hayden for his “base appearance,” and Vader-like if he wanted to frighten a guy), so it’d work for me.

I’m so sorry, Adywan. Hoping you guys stay safe and get through this abnormal time. 😔

The clip compilation was amazing! I love how you’ve improved on the SD shots, corrected the cantina shot, and incorporated feedback on SD (e.g., Obi-Wan doesn’t ignite his saber until after Vader and the Leia reaction shot). 😁

GlastoEls said:

Tantive3+1 said:

I’m with Gary Kurtz in that the DSII and going back to Tatooine were too derivative to ANH. I also believe that like him the ending should’ve been bittersweet with the Rebels winning but with heavy casualties and few survivors (just like in the Battle of Yavin it didn’t have everyone making it afterwards for a happier ending).

My head agrees, but I’m forever grateful to George for not doing that, meaning my childhood is forever alive on Endor watching the Ewoks have a party!

Same. I’m glad that the bittersweet ending was kicked to the curb. I much prefer having a happy ending to the trilogy, even though I wish it was a tetralogy sometimes (i.e., Jabba’s Palace as one movie, Endor as the other - draw out the redemption and sister plotlines more, Han’s rescue is the climax of the palace part, and we get more development of Lando and a few other characters).

Honestly, if “The Empire Strikes Back” and “Return of the Jedi” title cards appeared at the start of their respective movies followed by title-less scrolls, I’d prefer that.

yotsuya said:

A careful review of all the different releases and comparing them to the timeline shows that the original May 1977 version of the film (see Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand) had 4 differences. 3 FX shots and the end credits. Not to mention the soundtrack.

I’m curious, which FX shots are replacements?