BedeHistory731

Stardust1138 said:

I recommend these videos as they touch on the subject of the poetry angle to a degree.

https://youtu.be/Btp1BoGbuiM

https://youtu.be/NvlWSsZwLn0

https://youtu.be/gUKvHwjcfIQ

It’s more than a repetitive device. It’s about creating links between the two trilogies of two different generations and families. They’re one of the same yet different from each other. The Original Trilogy on its own really follows the trajectory. Mind you it’s to a lesser extent but it’s there. The trilogy has lots of parallels within its own narrative. IV and VI correlate in certain ways. Just as V and VI do. The Prequels do it within their own narrative as well. It’s not about copying but creating moments that are poetic yet different from each other. Just like written poetry. The Sequels tried but ended up copying and pasting a lot of the time. The Last Jedi I find gets closest to getting it right in connecting the whole saga together. It doesn’t fully but it does succeed at times.

Again, it just strikes me as formulaic in a bad way when it comes to the PT and ST. Derivative, not poetic. I get the importance of the visuals and the poetry of it, along with the repetition, but it just comes off as a derivative quality whenever the PT or the ST come into the equation. It’s why I appreciate prequel rewrites that deviate greatly from the originals. Also, I find AOTC and ROTS to be on the same quality level as The Room and Nothing But Trouble, with all the after-the-fact justifications being flailing to try and counter-act the fairly correct assessment of the movies from their contemporary time.

I’d prefer the final word in the Skywalker saga being George’s vision and having what comes after it beginning the process of creating something new and more experimental. It can mix it up and go in different directions as it’s not beholden to the established rules of the saga films. I would have welcomed new takes and spins with open arms as the story that was intended as a nine part saga was completed as the original author intended.

“Original author” is where I lose interest. For me, George was the problem with the PT. Nobody was there to tell him no to his more outlandish ideas. If another director came in and gave his story beats something better, then a bunch of us would have a better opinion of the PT. I’d compare the PT to the first few seasons of TNG or Star Trek: The Motion Picture in terms of being misguided creatively. Heck, the comparisons to The Room and Nothing But Trouble are apt in how the “ultimate auteur experience” is nigh-unwatchable.

It honestly doesn’t bother me when creators of work go in a different direction than that of what fans want. They’re not there to please us. It’s when someone else has a responsibility to continuing a story that I have a problem. It’s the difference between one vision and that of a corporation in a way. One does it for the joy of telling their own tale, while the other does it to max out on profits.

As if the prequels weren’t made to max out on profits. Lionizing George’s intentions, when one considers the merch push during the PT time, is sketchy to me.

Besides, a few important beats of George’s story carried through (elder Luke, female protagonist, etc.). I know it’s not enough for some, but a lot of us wouldn’t have wanted to see a story that doubled down on the weaknesses of the PT.

I wish I had more of a favourable view of the Sequels like you do. The only time I find I do is when I see them as disconnected from George’s story. As their own thing they are pretty enjoyable popcorn flicks but as a conclusion to what he started I find they don’t work for me. Star Wars was always a collection of art films with aspects of popcorn flicks to entertain. I find they’re now just the latter and nothing more.

I find them a worthy conclusion to a nine-part series that’s 2/3 questionable (or 5/9, depending on your opinion of ROTJ). Heck, I even like the idea of OT-ST with no PT at times (really, OT + TLJ). If anything, there was some relief on my part that the series can now focus on serialized programs and one-offs that fill out other realms of the universe. It doesn’t have to follow the Skywalkers, Solos, Palpatines, or the two droids.

George is now Gene Roddenberry or Yuji Naka - he got it started and built the fictional world, but other people can play with said world/story and create their own stories from it that don’t need to play by the original rules. Granted, George never interrupted a filming shoot to describe how an alien species mated or made Balan Wonderworld, so I guess he has that above Roddenberry and Naka (respectively).

I’m thankful for what George did, but no fictional universe needs to be 100% dependent on a creator or their vision. I can see where you find the disconnect, but I don’t see it as much. If anything, I see a PT-rest of the movies disconnect that fan edits can help resolve. I guess that’s all I have to really say on it.

Stardust1138 said:

I’m not saying a Palpatine can’t. I’m just saying within the framework of established rules that it comes off as a lack of care was given to what came before it. Palpatine never had these parallels in the Prequels or Originals. However if they established right away that Rey was her own character with her own sense of self with some parallels to Palpatine then it could’ve worked much better.

Yeah, that does make sense to some extent.

Like say how Anakin and Leia and Padme and Luke are one of the same. They share many of the same personality traits and qualities but they also have very clear motivations and sense of self. They’re paralleled and connected but it doesn’t stop them from being their own characters. They remain their own people. The same could be said if they showed Rey as a Palpatine from the very beginning and then you find she rejects it all in favour of a different path than that of the Dark Side. She becomes just Rey.

If you don’t have rules within your narrative and story then you create a lack of cohesiveness and consistency throughout the story. The story will eventually run its course and will have nowhere else to go. It’s just as important to respect what came before as it is about expanding upon the story.

“It’s like poetry, it rhymes” became a meme for a reason. What the parallels sounds like, to me, is a way to just make a repetitive story. Yeah, Rebels vs. Empire MKII is also repetitive, but the protagonist’s journey is something new. “Respecting” the past just means “slavishly following the standard beats of the protagonist’s journey” in this sense. I get that it may not be cohesive, but it’s different and a fun spin that fits within the franchise’s themes of found family and rising above one’s family flaws.

That’s the key though as within the fandom it’s okay to pick and choose. There’s no wrong way to enjoy Star Wars from a fan’s prospective. However the fandom and storyteller are separate entities… However it’s just as important to follow the rules of the universe and go from there. It’s about finding a natural progression and middle ground that doesn’t contradict what came before it.

I’d argue that what happened does follow the rules of the universe, but also disregards the pattern found within the PT (and retroactively applied to the OT). It builds upon it and sends the story in a new direction, with more room to expand post-TROS and growth through the other ventures (e.g., Mandalorian, Visions, Book of Boba Fett, etc.

As storytellers you don’t fall prey to what the audience wants you to make.

There has to be a balance. You go too far into one direction, you get George’s sequel trilogy/BBC’s Sherlock/Supernatural (i.e., disregarding the fans). You go too far in the other, you get two hours of the Vader hallway scene (i.e., giving in 100% to fan service).

I think the sequels fit the balance well enough. It could’ve been much much better, but it could’ve been a lot, a lot worse. Still, I’m tempted to disregard everything after 1983 as bonus fluff. Fine, but ultimately inconsequential and irrelevant to the movies. TCW is nice and all, but it doesn’t match the “OT and OT alone” method to me.

Stardust1138 said:

It’s not really prejudice, it’s more accepting what is the established rules and trajectory of the story and that the parallels that came before it are part of this. If they gave Rey her own sense of self and own motivations then it could’ve worked much better I think. As it stands now they gave her parallels because of nostalgia and nothing more. I would’ve been accepting of Rey Skywalker if she remained Random because the argument of her being a “No One” could be paired with the idea she found identity in the generation of Skywalkers before her and their shared experiences as she too had humble origins. Despite how meta it is I find it kind of works since it didn’t tip over to mixing up with established characters but her own character who happens to parallel the family who came before her.

It sounds like prejudice to say that “a Palpatine can rise above their background and become a hero.” Rejecting one’s heritage to adopt something new is a welcome addition rather than relying on pre-destination as the only determinant of one’s worth. Sometimes it’s worth it to break the rules for something more compelling. I’d have preferred “Rey nobody,” but “Rey Palpatine” represents one’s rejection of negative heritage. Breaking the cycle of abuse and horror in one’s family is a positive piece of symbolism, a welcome addition to the canon. As somebody who knows people that have had difficulty with their families, the theme of ascending above an awful family resonated with me.

It’s about respecting all of Star Wars and not just picking and choosing the pieces of the story that best suit the storyteller. It’s about accepting the creator (George) had a story and following the rules he created for his universe.

That’s literally been the state of the franchise since the '90s. Picking and choosing is an important part of enjoying any franchise, even within official media (see the state of any fandom today).

But let’s say we have to limit ourselves to the existing rules of “George’s universe.” The idea of ascending above one’s heritage is Luke avoiding the fate of his father, just like Rey escaped the legacy of the Palpatines to join the family of her mentors. It fits. Not great, but it fits the “rules for George’s universe.”

Stardust1138 said:

I’ll always prefer and defend the Prequels to the Sequels. Growing up I loved both the Prequels and Originals equally.

I grew up liking the OT and disliking the PT.

So in a way I have nostalgic feelings about both but it’s more complicated than that. I can see some flaws in the Prequels now but I can also point them out in the Originals. No Star Wars movie has ever been perfect and that includes Empire.

Fair, but the prequels always had more flaws to me.

I really have no problem with the Prequels “ruining” mysteries in the Originals as to me personally they add to experience and the story is meant to be watched I-VI.

I have problems. It detracts from the experience to know that Vader used to be Hayden Anakin. It detracts to know who Yoda was. It detracts to have all the magic of the PT spoiled.

Yoda using a lightsaber is meant to echo his words of war not making one great. How does he know if he didn’t experience it?

I beg to differ. I prefer a Yoda who left the order because of these issues. He was a man who preferred peace, leaving out of objection to war.

You see Palpatine’s overconfidence on full display when he thinks he’s defeated Yoda in the Senate Chamber. This foreshadows his downfall.

Meh. He still won pretty handily and I don’t think the foreshadowing adds much of anything.

“His fate will be the same as ours.” Welp! Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine all three did die on a Death Star.

That’s just forced.

Anakin and Luke learn the same lessons in their first and second film but ultimately make a different choice when it comes to their third film. However the beautiful thing about Return of the Jedi is that it’s the coming together of both their choices and destinies to destroy the Sith and Palpatine. So Anakin has another chance to get it right.

I guess, but Anakin is beyond redemption the minute the youngling-slayer scene came up. He was an idiot who flipped heel within minutes.

You don’t really get these and other experiences if you watch them IV-VI, I-III. You may get the shock value of the reveals in Empire but there’s more to Star Wars than that. It has grown and evolved into something bigger than these story points.

Not really. IV-VI, VIII is the only viewing order you need. Maybe throw in Clone Wars, ignore the terrible movies in front and behind it that ruin Clone Wars’ characterizations.

The Last Jedi came and I felt a numbness and bad feeling that something was wrong. I didn’t hate the film but I didn’t love it either. It was vastly different from what I was hoping as i was thinking Rey would be a Skywalker in some way. Afterall we’re following the Skywalker family saga and George asked J.J. once about Darth Vader’s grandchildren. As time went along I was somewhere between accepting this isn’t George’s story and denial. Bob Iger’s book came and I felt hurt.

I was glad and overjoyed that it wasn’t George’s story anymore. My joy of the sequels comes from George not being involved. It’s like when TNG and the TOS movies got rid of Gene Roddenberry. He was an anchor dragging it down. Filoni is the Rick Berman taking over, minus the “allegations” against Berman.

Finally The Rise of Skywalker came and the moment we see Rey’s parents leaving her on Jakku I was finding peace. I told myself this isn’t George’s story and that’s okay. It was then revealed she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter and my heart sank.

Meh, Rey Palpatine is a fun twist that explores a bit of the nature/nurture thing. Overcoming one’s nature is a theme of the series, be it Luke asserting himself in ROTJ or Anakin’s character expiration in TCW.

It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing.

So just because she’s a Palpatine, she should be denied all of those parallels? That seems too prejudicial. We should be able to overcome our “nature” and arrive to a point of heroicism. I think it’s cruel to deny the character that and call it “sickening.”

They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars.

Overcoming one’s nature and rejecting your negative heritage is a fair tale/happily ever after to me.

That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films.

…and that’s the way it should be. Right down to retconning big chunks of bad prequel lord away.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars.

I’d agree, but I would have appreciated a retcon for Midichlorians.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.

Nah. Many of us still believe in the OT and want good things for the franchise. The ST was better than what we got with the PT (my opinion) and the lore is trending in an OK direction. It’s as healthy as it was in the PT era, with writers exploring different directions.

If anything, Star Wars is like Sonic. The OT is the Genesis/Mega Drive games, while the PT is the Adventure/Heroes series, and the ST is Generations or Mania. Generations/Mania have hope for a modernized version of the classic style, (which is well done for SW and Sonic, I’d argue). This would mean that The Force Unleashed is ‘06, but TFU is a terrible addition to canon.

Clone Wars just made the prequels worse for me. Going from compelling Lantner Anakin to Hayden “Elliot Rodger in space” Anakin just kills II and III in my perspective.

TCW didn’t redeem the prequels, it just made them even more unwatchable.

Star Trek was a dead franchise after Enterprise, while Star Wars was in complete limbo after ROTS.

The prequels are offensively bad to me, while the sequels feel more comforting. Safe, sure. It doesn’t ruin the OT with spoilers, ugly visuals, and terrible direction. It’s disposable, rather than damaging. It’s just a disposable sequel that doesn’t inject stupid lore. The prequels ruin the OT. The ST doesn’t for me.

The sequel trilogy is like Dragon Ball GT - fun, but a bit forgettable and cringe at times. TLJ is the only remotely good movie in the series since Return of the Jedi. It’s the Omega Shenron arc of Star Wars.

Meh, there are only three worthwhile Star Wars movies. At the end of the day, nothing should have been made after 1983 in this godforsaken franchise.

Star Wars was a mistake. The prequels were the biggest mistake. I miss when people knew the prequels were shit and didn’t throw unwarranted praise on them.

The ST is still infinitely better than the PT to me 🤷‍♂️.

I’d go for setting the sequels 100 years after ROTJ. Chewie, R2, 3PO, and ghost Luke would be the only returning characters (limit Han and Leia to flashbacks). Basically turn Luke into an Avatar Roku-like character, serving as a mentor for a new cast of characters looking to end a Jedi-New Sith war. Spirit Palpatine could return, if one really wanted him back in some significant capacity.

A re-ranking of live-action stuff:

1. Empire Strikes Back 1980
2. Star Wars 1977
3. Return of the Jedi 1983
4. The Last Jedi
5. The Mandalorian
6. The Phantom Menace
7. Solo
8. The Force Awakens
9. The Rise of Skywalker
10. Revenge of the Sith
11. Attack of the Clones
12. Rogue One

Rogue One just struck a nerve in such a thoroughly nasty way. It’s the only movie in the series that fell victim to the Eight Deadly Words for me.

DominicCobb said:

“Bad Fight Scene version 4,398,289” good description of SC.38

Indeed. I really don’t like the idea that Kenobi vs Vader needs to be reshot. I’d rather work with what’s available to make integration more seamless.

Yeah, some of us are a bit too hard on SC. 38, myself included. It’s too jarring within the movie and arguably the series. Place it in a fan film, replace Obi-Wan with a random Jedi, and it’s much better.

Team Foxcatcher is way too heavy-handed on the foreshadowing. Heck, just about every media piece about the murder of David Schultz by John DuPont lays on thick foreshadowing about the crime.

I still think SC. 38 looks like a trashy fanfilm and will never rival the original duel. It’s an overcorrection for the '77 duel.

Adywan had the right idea in just recutting the duel to make it seem faster-paced and better-constucted.

G&G-Fan said:

Besides, of course the fight scene is going to be filmed differently then the talking scenes.

But there are certain qualities that are consistent between fight and talking scenes. Lighting, quality of the costumes, filming lenses and other equipment, color grading, etc. No matter how hard you try, SC. 38 blends even worse with the original film than the redone ship effects from 1997.

And it’ll look even more out-of-place and terrible within the context of the movie.

No offense to the guys who worked on the video, but it completely clashes with the movie (even more than the work done in ‘97).

I’ve read nearly everything from Reddit’s Museum of Filth. Little fazes me anymore with gross stuff.

Heck, here’s an idea: use a text-to-speech Yoda voice to read the Swamps of Dagobah story!

I like the ideas of Anakin being both a martial-focused character (due to his upbringing) and Anakin being a Palpatine child/clone.

Like, Adywan kept the tweaks to Vader’s voice from 2004 (designed to make him sound like he did in ESB/ROTJ). I’d prefer to have the Imperial March in Vader’s intro. Maybe have it be the only instance of the motif, to not overshadow “The Imperial Motif” in the one movie where it has pre-eminence.

I also think that’s kind of up to the Jedi’s choice. Kind of like why in Avatar, Roku appears to be really old while Aang looks considerably younger as a spirit (how Korra knows him) than he did when he died (as Tenzin saw him in the Fog of Lost Souls). Aang chose to keep his prime look, while Roku opted to appear aged. The same applies for Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Does “scrap the entire script before filming” count as one thing?

Well that’s not far off from what they did. I always compare the last minute script to Jurassic Park III which actually scrapped its entire script weeks before filming and wrote a new one as they were shooting. The weirdest part is the finished film is actually really good. Shame the same can’t be said for TRoS.

A fellow JPIII defender? Welcome to the club 😁.

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Quotes from Joseph Campbell:

“Between mythology and biology there is a very close association. I think of mythology as a function of biology; it’s a production of the human imagination, which is moved by the energies of the organs of the body operating against each other. These are the same in human beings all over the world and this is the basis for the archetypology of myth. So, I’ve thought of myself as a kind of marginal scientist studying the phenomenology of the human body, you might say.”

"I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A mythology gives the spiritual import – what one might call rather the psychological, inward import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. There’s no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science. "

“What I’m trying to say is that the structuring of a mythology is conditioned by the science at that time. There’s no use constructing a mythology based on an archaic science. I wouldn’t know what to do with an atom, but I do recognize that when we had a Ptolemaic cosmology there was a whole interpretation of the relationship of the earth to the different planes of the universe that was mythologized. What happened to that was it was given an ethical and moral value, the stages of a ladder of the heavens represented the stages of the psyche.”

None of this has anything to do with Midichlorians

Heck, I’d have loved a straight retcon of Midichlorians as a symptom of larger issues within the Jedi Order. Saying they were a bullshit idea the Order adopted in their decline as a means of selection for child abduction.

No thank you. I feel that would truly be a slap in the face to all six of George’s films and The Clone Wars. Star Wars has always been about symbiotic relationships and helping people. It’s just The Phantom Menace made it central to the plot and started to explore it on a deeper more ethereal level.

A slap in the face to only three movies. The OT would be unaffected. Midichlorians were and still are stupid to me.

I like the theme of symbiosis in TPM, but Midichlorians weren’t a part of it for me. They’re a symbol of The Jedi Order’s emphasis on materialism over spirituality.

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Quotes from Joseph Campbell:

“Between mythology and biology there is a very close association. I think of mythology as a function of biology; it’s a production of the human imagination, which is moved by the energies of the organs of the body operating against each other. These are the same in human beings all over the world and this is the basis for the archetypology of myth. So, I’ve thought of myself as a kind of marginal scientist studying the phenomenology of the human body, you might say.”

"I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A mythology gives the spiritual import – what one might call rather the psychological, inward import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. There’s no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science. "

“What I’m trying to say is that the structuring of a mythology is conditioned by the science at that time. There’s no use constructing a mythology based on an archaic science. I wouldn’t know what to do with an atom, but I do recognize that when we had a Ptolemaic cosmology there was a whole interpretation of the relationship of the earth to the different planes of the universe that was mythologized. What happened to that was it was given an ethical and moral value, the stages of a ladder of the heavens represented the stages of the psyche.”

None of this has anything to do with Midichlorians

Exactly. While I misspoke earlier with Campbell, I stand by my point of not wanting the microbial stuff involved in it. That just takes it too close to sci-fi and gets way too “in the weeds” within the story. I’ll take what we got over the big microbial adventure.

Heck, I’d have loved a straight retcon of Midichlorians as a symptom of larger issues within the Jedi Order. Saying they were a bullshit idea the Order adopted in their decline as a means of selection for child abduction.

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Treverrow’s script felt like a Game of Thrones-level middle finger (albeit with some good ideas), while the GL sequel trilogy would need extensive revision (getting rid of Midichlorians and the microscopic stuff). I’m not keen on what we got, but I feel slightly reassured knowing it could’ve been so much thrashier.

Replace Palpatine in TROS with the skeleton/corpse from Nekromantik, complete with the pipe dick.

Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

Why has nobody thought to just redub “Fake Wedge” instead of some complicated process? It’d be easier, look better, and you wouldn’t need any machine-learning tech to make it work. Consumer-grade microphones are probably at the right level now.

I only really support deepfakes for de-aging or for replacing obvious stunt/photo doubles. I don’t like the idea of “erasing” actors and their performances.