BedeHistory731

If I bought it in 2012, I’d just have Rian Johnson direct the trilogy and release it over a slightly longer period (six years, not four). The in-between movies would be Rogue One heavily retooled, Solo with Lord/Miller the whole way through, and a Kenobi movie done by Gus Van Sant in the style of Gerry. I’d also release every cut of all the movies and make the Holiday Special canon. If there is TV involved, just make something pulpy and goofy with CW-level production values.

If I bought it now? I’d release every cut of every movie, cobble together extended cuts of the JJ movies to release/heavily re-edit them to remove Rey Palpatine (without telling JJ), and reboot the comics universe. There’d also be a complete cancellation of all future projects save for “Tales of the Jedi” and Andor. I’d mandate that Ahsoka dies in whatever media she appears in next, while Mandalorian gets retooled into something less universe-shrinking. Throw in a “Rey and Broomkid” animated series in the mix, and I’d be set.

G&G-Fan said:

The only way I see a plotline of Vader trying to destroy the Empire from within working is if he’s doing it for selfish Sithy reasons, wanting to take Palpatine’s place and continue the whole “rule the galaxy as father and son” thing. Vader is not the kind of person to admit that he’s wrong, he’s the type to double down based on his emotions. Because he can’t let go of anything. Through the whole movie he keeps avoiding the truth and refusing to admit to his feelings. “If that is your destiny.” “There is no conflict.” “If you do not fight, then you will meet your destiny.”

Stretch that out to cover a whole movie instead of one scene, with Luke questioning him more and more. Vader’s realization in the middle of an ROTJ equivalent is that “I did the right thing for the wrong reasons, maybe Luke has a point,” after Luke voluntarily gets captured and stresses the good in Vader. He would have changed for the better, but still think it’s too late for himself to fundamentally change. That is until he’s presented with Palpatine killing his son, when he realizes that he can truly do something good for the right reasons (saving his son and killing his master directly).

I hate to bring up another comparison, but Frieza/Cell Saga Vegeta is a close example of this kind of arc. He may be trying to help the heroes, but he’s still doing so out of awful reasons/despite the badgering of his allies. The first time he does the right thing for the right reasons is to shoot at Cell so that Gohan can overpower him. Like Vader, he does so because this man tried to kill his son (well, Cell actually succeeded for a few minutes).

That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.

NeverarGreat said:

You’d be surprised what a pair of coveralls and a ladder will do in lieu of a security clearance 😉

If Dale Gribble can sneak onto an army base and copy confidential documents, it’s not out of the room of possibility in a galaxy far, far away.

What about a remake made entirely in Roblox or The Sims?

Shopping Maul said:

G&G-Fan said:

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

That’s all well and good, but what about Luke’s role? Luke sacrificed himself because the Empire could sense his presence (which is not a great endorsement for future Jedi but still a noble act) but then made his entire quest an attempt to achieve Vader’s bedside conversion. He literally sat idle while shiploads of innocent beings were being annihilated by the Death Star. Even at the last moment, with Vader defeated, Luke threw his weapon aside and declared his own enlightenment - again while a war continued to rage outside. So yeah, hooray for Vader saving his own flesh and blood at the last moment (is that really so unselfish?) but how is any of this remotely helpful to the rebel cause or even ethically sound? The fact that Vader finally caved and saved his own son, after the Emperor had basically written him off anyway (“take your father’s place at my side”), doesn’t strike me as particularly noble…or even helpful given Luke’s complete obliviousness to anything beyond his and Vader’s religious aspirations.

Well, what else was Luke going to do? I don’t want to defend Luke’s actions, but what use would he have been in the battle? He hasn’t been an active duty fighter pilot for some time and risks being shot by a random TIE pilot (of which there were dozens, if not hundreds). On the ground, what can he do beyond slicing down a few stormtroopers and maybe pulling the shield bunker doors open, which are all things the strike team and Ewoks could do?

Luke’s most useful place is on the Death Star, dealing with Vader and the Emperor. Also, if one wants to add the Legends EU idea of “battle meditation” into the mix, Luke’s actions led to the Emperor’s death. The Emperor’s death, through the force, cratered the morale and resolve of the Imperials at Endor. Luke did have an important role within the battle, even though he wasn’t directly involved in the fighting.

Eyepainter said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Insert a stormtrooper impaled Cannibal Holocaust-style into the background of every Ewok village shot.

Actually, I think making the Ewoks a bunch of bloodthirsty critters would make their victory over the stormtroopers a lot more interesting and believable. Sure, it will never happen due to the PG rating, but making the Endor battle R-rated would honestly be an improvement.

I’m just imagining the Ewoks building entire structures out of stormtrooper skulls, along with stormtrooper armor trophies and captured/tortured imperial officers begging the rebels for escape.

The idea of the Endor conflict being a brutal stalemate between the Empire and the Ewoks would certainly add to the Vietnam War parallel.

Insert a stormtrooper impaled Cannibal Holocaust-style into the background of every Ewok village shot.

You know, that interpretation is entirely legitimate and can work in a story. Like, look at the ending of Better Call Saul, when Jimmy finally confesses to all of his awfulness in court. He gets to spend the rest of his days in prison, but he’s free from his life of lies and Kim is open to him again. The whole arc of Jimmy living as Gene is a good example of making a character suffer before they truly gain a shot at redemption. I don’t really think it’s communicated that well in the OT.

I just don’t find that it works in ROTJ and especially not in the context of the PT. Luke may forgive him, but can the people watching even think about forgiving him? This is guy who led a school shooting, FFS. Nobody is thinking about how one can find the good in Dylan, Erik, or the author of Richard McBeef. That’s a big root of my problem and why I always support fanedits that cut that one scene out. I despise that Kenobi made it Reva’s origin.

Also, Vader can start his redemption arc earlier. Why doesn’t he try to disassemble the empire from within, anonymously send secrets to the alliance (without them knowing it’s him - maybe Piett is a red herring)? It could be narratively satisfying when Luke learns that Vader is the one that gave up imperial secrets, but saddened to learn that Vader did so for dark side reasons.

Vader the secret informant could have dramatic stakes too, as Palpatine could have fed him false information for Endor and Luke could question Vader’s intentions again. It’s through the duel that Luke tries to pull out that call to the light (as he does in the movie), but it becomes more pained for Vader. It’d contextualize Vader killing Palpatine as the culmination of a much longer path in Vader’s life, the final step needed to complete that redemption. Instead of what we got, where it comes off more “rushed.”

Again, my feelings could change on this. They have before and they’ll probably do so again. IDK, I feel like the PT makes me want to see Luke leave Vader to die alone in the throne room and that this franchise has been a deeply mediocre one since 1983. If Vader’s redemption works for you, that’s totally fine. It just doesn’t work for me.

SparkySywer said:

I feel like Zuko’s not a great comparison to Darth Vader. Zuko’s arc relies on him joining the protagonists, his redemption isn’t the end of his story. This isn’t the case for Vader, and I don’t think it should’ve been either.

Yeah, that’s a different and much more enjoyable kind of story for me. Hell, my other example of Odo is a “good guy” who is wrestling with his past as a collaborator in a fascist regime/struggles with relating to his totalitarian species. IDW Megatron is kind of comparable to Vader, in that redemption was more of a spur of the moment decision/reflected a “nobility within,” but the series still made him face the gravity of what he had done. He even worked to dismantle some of the horrors he created - wiping out the Decepticon Justice Division, for instance.

“Redemption equals death”/redemption as the end point of a journey has never stood right with me. I find actively trying to face or even ameliorate one’s misdeeds is much more satisfying and legitimate. It’s why I still feel that ROTJ should have been two movies to properly allow Vader to embrace the light and earn forgiveness from people who aren’t Luke.

You say “blaze of glory,” I say “unearned and insincere.” From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed. If we take the PT into account, it’s essentially a school shooter getting rewarded for one good deed.

Again, the idea of Death of the Author (in the actual sense, not the “your fave is problematic” sense) plays in my interpretation here. The work should speak for itself, not the author rationalizing shit in interviews. Hell, look at what Truce of Bakura said about how Leia would find redeemed Anakin.

“Wait.” He did not move away from the wall. If anything, he seemed to shrink in size and proximity. “I am no longer the man that you feared. Can you not see me as a stranger, not an old enemy?”
She’d lived too long with the fear of Darth Vader. “You can’t restore Alderaan. You can’t bring back the people you murdered, or comfort their widows and orphans. You can’t undo what you did to the Alliance.” Old pain jabbed her like a fresh wound.
“I strengthened the Alliance, although that was not my intent.” He extended a glimmering arm. The mellow voice sounded wrong. The mild, naked face didn’t look as if it’d hidden for decades behind a black breath mask. “Leia, things are changing. I may never be able to return to you.”
She glanced away. Maybe she couldn’t harm him with her blaster, but it would feel good in her hands. If she stretched, she could almost reach it. “Good.”
“There is no justifying … my actions. Yet your brother saved me from darkness. You must believe me.”
“I heard Luke.” She crossed her arms and clenched her hands around her elbows. “But I’m not Luke. Or your teacher. Or your confessor. I’m only your daughter by a cruel trick of fate.”

I know she changes her mind later in the book, but that’s still how I view Vader as ROTJ presents him. Maybe Luke buys his redemption, but I see it as entirely unearned and rushed. The movie gives him one legitimately contemplative scene (the landing platform exchange) and then the throne room stuff is him just resigned to his fate of dying evil. The decision to save his son is a first step towards redemption and possible forgiveness, not the whole process.

I’d rather have Vader slowly redeem himself, go through hiccups in shaking his thought processes he’s had for decades, before finally joining the side of good. A purely visual confrontation of his harm would also be nice, something like this:

But we don’t get that. Instead, we have a rushed redemption for a character who (as depicted) never deserved it.

Maybe I’ll feel more charitable to ROTJ again, I don’t know. I currently find it a deeply dissatisfying end to the OT and to the six-film interpretation of the series.

The Star Wars Purist said:

I liked Halloween Resurrection.

It’s infinitely better than Halloween Kills.

G&G-Fan said:

Y’know, it kinda just dawned on me, that calling Vader being Luke’s father universe shrinking is actually pretty ridiculous. Luke’s father was already Obi-Wan’s best friend and Vader was his apprentice. They were already close, it was already pretty shrinked. You’re literally just eliminating one single person by making Anakin be Vader, both of which were already close. This is absolutely nothing compared to C-3PO and R2 in the prequels and Chewbacca in ROTS. Like damn, apparently the universe is so much more vast because of one additional person.

Eh, Vader being Luke’s father is fine within ESB and a better version of ROTJ, but it’s what it helped inspire that led the franchise down a bad path. Which brings me to my next point:

And considering how much more complex both Vader and Luke’s characters are by having them be father and son respectively and their relationship and the depth it gave to both the trilogy and the saga, it’s by far absolutely worth it.

Within a better version of the trilogy, definitely. With the ROTJ we have now, where Vader’s redemption is incredibly rushed, the first act drags horribly, the cinematography looks incredibly bland, and we have the dreaded “Luke and Leia are twins” twist (which absolutely shrinks the universe)? Not really, no. Again, this is a “sometimes” attitude. When I see ROTJ '83 or ESB '80 again, my thoughts will probably change. For the better or worse? Who knows, that’s up to my interpretation.

My only six-film canon is the HAL9000 PT (with maybe the “sanding” edits sometimes) and Revisited ANH/ESB with DarthRush’s ROTJ (which fixes some of my problems with the movie). My only nine-film canon are those movies with Starlight, Rekindled (no Palpatine hints), and Resurgent (Rey Nobody edition).

Like StarkillerAG said, sometimes it feels nice to detach the OT/SW and ESB/SW along from its mediocre franchise. I single out TPM and TLJ from their respective trilogies, because I happen to really like them.

I don’t like that some PT fans refuse to see the OT within their temporal context of 1977-83.

G&G-Fan said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Star Wars is supposed to be a family soap opera, according to George Lucas. If you don’t like it, then you just don’t really like Star Wars.

We have a whole thread about Lucas’ revisionism and his changing interpretations/press statements about his works. Also, Death of the Author (in the actual sense, not the “your fave is problematic” sense) opens the room up for all interpretations to be valid. Just because it’s George’s intent doesn’t mean it is what we take away from it/want from it.

Also, damn it’s almost like things from one family member get passed down to another. Sounds like you didn’t take a lot of science classes cause it seems you know nothing about genetics.

Luke’s father in 1977 was a Jedi, so yeah it’d be “passed down.”

It seems like you’re just infatuated with an idea without realizing that it just works poorly on screen. Having Vader once be the man Obi-Wan described Luke’s father as immediately adds way more depth to his character. Without combining Vader and Anakin they both become a lot less complex and interesting. Since when was the universe feeling vast more important then character depth and the characters having meaningful relationships with one another? Because if you ask me that was never.

You can still make the relationships meaningful and bring about complexity with them remaining separate. It’s only one additional character.

BedeHistory731 said:

Perhaps Leia shouldn’t be the child of a Jedi? The brother-sister twist should also be on the chopping block as it really feels half-assed.

You missed the point entirely. That still doesn’t answer why Luke is the only child of any Jedi left around. If Jedi having children is something any normal Jedi would do, why is he the only one? Why doesn’t Obi-Wan or Yoda or any of the other Jedi have any children? You mean to tell me Luke is the only child of any Jedi left in the entire galaxy?

He’s the only one we see within the scope of the franchise, doesn’t mean he’s the only one.

It’s almost like having Anakin be a morally ambiguous character who then turned to the dark side and became Vader because he broke the rules that Jedi shouldn’t get married and have children kinda ties all the loose ends, doesn’t it?

It doesn’t have to necessarily be that way.

Nah. Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi expand on the themes and the characters. It makes everything a lot more complex and interesting and further develops everybody. Vader would be 1/4 of the amazing character he is without ESB or ROTJ. Vader as we know him know is defined far more by ESB then ANH. I’d even argue Luke would be half of what he is without the two sequels. Luke is made way more complex and layered by ESB and ROTJ then ANH alone. If you just have ANH as a standalone movie his journey isn’t complete. He’s not even a Jedi by the end of the first movie.

Maybe the completion we did get isn’t satisfying to me, and I regret what the completion of the trilogy has wrought for franchise filmmaking. I think ROTJ is a deeply flawed movie (Vader’s redemption is entirely undeserved to me) and kind of renders ESB in a poorer light.

And you know my Godzilla comparison? I didn’t expect you to get so offended over it and my other points to rattle off three long posts in succession. Maybe I should have compared it to the Indiana Jones series, because at least that one had similar enough operations to Star Wars.

I really didn’t expect you to take such offense to my points. But you are right about something: I’m kind of questioning why I even got into this franchise to begin with, and what is even the appeal of it. Outside of SW and ESB, I really don’t see anything worth salvaging from this franchise. But that’s a me problem and I’ll deal with it.

Pauline Kael was right and history keeps proving her correct.

SparkySywer said:

Star Wars 77 is a fantastic movie on its own, but I don’t think it would be as worth remembering without The Empire Strikes Back

Yeah, Empire arguably has more continued pop culture relevance than '77 and more of it has joined the general pop culture osmosis we all ingest. Star Wars, for all of its successes, is pretty basic when you get down to it. It does what it does well, but it doesn’t have the ambition of ESB.

I guess the '77 purism is akin to wishing that the Godzilla series was just Gojira '54 and nothing else. It’s excellent on its own, but you’re missing out on good (and pop culture relevant) stuff if you ignore the rest. At the moment, I’m ok with missing out on that.

Servii said:

We’ve ascended beyond OT purism now. We’ve gone up to 1977 purism.

But in all seriousness, I think something is lost when you only view Star Wars 77 in isolation. It’s neat to look at how far the characters come from the start of that movie to the end of RotJ, and the two sequels recontextualize the original in a way that adds more depth to the story imo

That’s an entirely valid way to look at it and one I’ll probably circle back to at one point. I completely see how ESB and ROTJ add to the world of SW, but it’s not worth it to me.

Right now, I’m just so burned out on franchise filmmaking that I relish in the idea of standalones. Leaving on a high note > overstaying your welcome. Some people see ROTJ or ROTS as that high note, I see Star Wars as that high note in this moment. One excellent movie and that’s it. ESB isn’t a Highlander II or Jurassic Park II: The Lost World, but it’s decisions led to far worse things to come for the franchise.

G&G-Fan said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

Hahahahahahahahaha no. Star Wars would be half of what it is if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father. ROTJ would go from a beautiful story of how a father redeemed himself to save his son to a cliche, boring “Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and saves the day! Luke gets revenge on the evil bad guy who killed his dad!”. Bleh. Imagine a ROTJ without the bridge scene between Luke and Vader, Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft and Anakin telling Luke he was always right about him. AKA the best parts of ROTJ? Sounds pretty shitty if you ask me. The entire third act of ROTJ basically becomes meaningless. Nothing.

Well, I’d rather have ROTJ simply not exist. Also, Vader’s redemption feels really unearned to me these days. Give it a movie or more to work towards, then it would feel satisfying.

Literally everything would have a lot less emotional depth too, from Luke’s journey to Vader’s character. Vader especially is given a shit ton more depth. It makes their relationship far more interesting and gives them an actual connection beyond just a shallow “I want revenge on you because you killed my dad!”.

It also shrinks the universe a little and turns the Skywalkers into the most important family in the galaxy. I don’t like the idea of lineage dictating a character’s power. Luke being a nobody who happens to be the son of a random Jedi and not the son of an all-time powerful Jedi/regional manager of the Empire sounds a bit better to me at the moment. I hate how lineage becomes so important, especially to the fan (and Abrams’) perspective.

And also, just from a simple screenwriting perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just lump Anakin and Vader into the same character. Having Obi-Wan have both a best friend and an apprentice just adds more unnecessary characters, and both characters would just be bland archetypes without lumping them together. Anakin is an interesting character because of the things that lead him to become Darth Vader, remove that and you just have a typical one-dimensional hero character. Anakin’s flaws are what make him work, otherwise he’s bland. What’s the point of having both a best friend character and an apprentice character when you can just combine them, leading to a much more interesting character with a lot more depth? In general, when you have too many characters it becomes harder to develop them all.

Not really? It’s only going to be bland archetypes if you have a bad writing or aren’t willing to develop said characters. Maybe Anakin was a bit of a POS and was an enabler for Vader? Maybe Obi and Anakin hurt Vader somehow and unintentionally led to his creation? Perhaps Vader was in the right for betraying the Jedi? There are plenty of questions one could pose if Vader and Anakin were separate.

The prequels already had so many characters to develop, lmao.

Well, cut a few glup shittos and you’d have room for more character stuff.

It also explains why Luke and Leia are the only children of any Jedi that are around. Because Anakin broke the rules, and this contributed to him becoming Darth Vader.

Perhaps Leia shouldn’t be the child of a Jedi? The brother-sister twist should also be on the chopping block as it really feels half-assed.

IMHO (which could change sooner or later), Star Wars (no A New Hope) is like Gojira. It works well as the start of a series and as a standalone, but it’s best as a standalone. Controversial, I know, but its my take at the moment.

Reshoots - a proud Star Wars tradition!

Han dying probably would have hurt the movie a little, I’d argue. Even though Han has little utility outside of the first act, he does very much earn his happy ending with Leia. Han dying would make the end a little too dark for my tastes. Having Han die in between ROTJ and TFA would have been acceptable, with Harrison only making a cameo in either a flashback or Kylo’s visions.

My bigger complaint (and one that actually hurts the movie) is that Vader’s redemption is kind of rushed. It comes off as just a brief rumination, followed by a split-second decision to save his son. Drawing his internal debate out a bit more would make it feel more earned at the end. It’s also why splitting ROTJ into two movies might have improved the overall narrative (movie one being Jabba’s Palace and movie two being Endor), as there would be more time to explore Vader’s redemption.

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

Adywan did mention that the detail levels were less than those of 4K77. Silver Screen/a release print would fit that qualification. Shadow detail seemed a bit high for a release print though, right?

I just hate that the posters use Agency. Agency is one of my least favorite fonts, especially the numerals.

John Boorman really sells Zardoz short. Yeah, it’s very clearly not his best work, but it has such a cool vision to it. The film also reflects so much of early-‘70s Sexual Revolution thinking from various perspectives. Even when the movie is being bizarre, it’s bizarre in a fascinating way, which is more than I can say for a lot of bad art house films (e.g., The Jar).

SpenceEdit said:

G&G-Fan said:

I think it’d be great to have an edit that just has the gungans speak in an alien language instead. Their speech is just so annoying and hard to understand. And besides when you have them have an alien language and then subtitle them you can make them say whatever you want.

Is there a language that the movie has been dubbed in that isn’t immediately identifiable? Because that could work. But if they obviously are speaking Russian or French it kind of falls apart.

Would Hungarian (a real “odd duck” within central/eastern European languages) be a good alien language for the Gungans? That is, of course, if we have a Hungarian dub of the PT.

SparkySywer said:

I didn’t even see that the body of the post was edited. Really uncool. Even if this post was downright intentionally spreading misinformation, it shows a severe lack of maturity and restraint in the mod team on OT.com to treat it this way. This is an argument over space movies where they say “Nerf herder”. It isn’t so dangerous as to warrant this kind of treatment.

Oojason could really be an overzealous mod. I liked the guy, but he could have power trip moments. Look at what happened to Chainsawash, for instance.