The reshoot footage in the PT is something you can’t un-notice once you notice it, especially with regard to wigs and fake beards.
I heard all the reasons about Hayden and the Redeeming nonsense created his ghost to become young again lol,
crap…Shaw is a bad choice as well to be honest, since Anakin/Vader died at 45
Anakin/Vader only died at 45 after the prequels made him so young. Shaw was a perfectly fine choice in 1983.
Ghost Shaw worked well in 1983, but It doesn’t anymore. Personally, as I said in my previous post, I’m in favor of replacing the current 20-years old ghost Hayden with a version of Hayden himself that’s closer to his 40s.
Okay, but that doesn’t make it a “bad choice” that they cast Shaw, like you said. You can’t fault them for not having the clairvoyance during the production of RotJ to know that the prequels would contradict them two decades later. It’s not a flaw of the OOT and it’s not something that needed to be fixed.
Yes, but we’re no longer in 1983. Like it or not, there are other films now, and we must see things in a more united context.
Which is why I don’t agree with this attitude toward the OT. The OT came first. The OT portrayed Anakin as being old. The PT contradicted that. It’s not the OT’s fault and it shouldn’t be a good thing to “fix” the OT to fit in with the prequels, the prequels should have fit in with the OT themselves.
I mean, I know that this can annoy many people (especially the cultists of the original theatrical cut), but I am absolutely in favour of “fixing” the OT if this fixing results in a more united and cohesive story and narrows the small contradictions between the movies, again, regardless of who is to blame for these contradictions.
Then why are you posting on the site dedicated to the preservation of the theatrical cuts? Are you like Stardust and other Lucas “cultists” (given that you’re open to using that word) who want to see the OOT buried forever?
Nope. I’m in favour of restoring the OOT for a matter of historical preservation. I don’t hate the Special Editions, on the contrary, I would like other, more updated Special Editions of the OT to be made, but at the same time I would like the OOT to be restored for its historical value.
Y’know, we are of the same mind on this. But I’d SE the PT also.
Maybe we’d have been better off if Lucas just made “The Star Wars” into a novel series. Who knows, maybe it would’ve been adapted into a set of movies?
Maybe. Sometimes I consider the sw77 novelization (The Adventures of Luke Skywalker), Splinter of the Mind’s Eye and the three Han Solo Adventures books to be “true” Star Wars.
My favorite adaptation of Splinter was the Blue Milk Special version.
https://www.bluemilkspecial.com/comic/splinter-of-the-minds-eye-part-40/
I heard all the reasons about Hayden and the Redeeming nonsense created his ghost to become young again lol,
crap…Shaw is a bad choice as well to be honest, since Anakin/Vader died at 45
Anakin/Vader only died at 45 after the prequels made him so young. Shaw was a perfectly fine choice in 1983.
Ghost Shaw worked well in 1983, but It doesn’t anymore. Personally, as I said in my previous post, I’m in favor of replacing the current 20-years old ghost Hayden with a version of Hayden himself that’s closer to his 40s.
Okay, but that doesn’t make it a “bad choice” that they cast Shaw, like you said. You can’t fault them for not having the clairvoyance during the production of RotJ to know that the prequels would contradict them two decades later. It’s not a flaw of the OOT and it’s not something that needed to be fixed.
Yes, but we’re no longer in 1983. Like it or not, there are other films now, and we must see things in a more united context.
Which is why I don’t agree with this attitude toward the OT. The OT came first. The OT portrayed Anakin as being old. The PT contradicted that. It’s not the OT’s fault and it shouldn’t be a good thing to “fix” the OT to fit in with the prequels, the prequels should have fit in with the OT themselves.
I mean, I know that this can annoy many people (especially the cultists of the original theatrical cut), but I am absolutely in favour of “fixing” the OT if this fixing results in a more united and cohesive story and narrows the small contradictions between the movies, again, regardless of who is to blame for these contradictions.
Then why are you posting on the site dedicated to the preservation of the theatrical cuts? Are you like Stardust and other Lucas “cultists” (given that you’re open to using that word) who want to see the OOT buried forever?
Maybe we’d have been better off if Lucas just made “The Star Wars” into a novel series. Who knows, maybe it would’ve been adapted into a set of movies?
Nice to see other people finally becoming sw77 purists like me!
That said, I was watching ESB just yesterday for the first time in awhile and I can at least appreciate how well it’s made from a technical standpoint.
As others here have said, it works very well on its own, but led to serious issues in the long run with the force, saber fights, familial themes, etc.
“Franchise original sin” really is a bitch, isn’t it?
- LISTEN TO THE FANS
Quoth the Stan Lee, “Never give the fans what they think they want.”
In that case, we will never see the untouched original trilogy get a proper remaster.
They didn’t mean the OOT restoration, they meant with storytelling stuff. Y’know, like the R-rated Vader movie idea or Plagueis being Snoke. Those ideas.
- LISTEN TO THE FANS
Quoth the Stan Lee, “Never give the fans what they think they want.”
Indeed. The writer of Animorphs, Katherine Applegate, had a good answer to fan inquiries about the ending of the books.
War sucks. People die. I’m not going to write a happy ending. Deal with it.
Fans might want a happy ending, but the creator doesn’t always want the same. Fan-creator relationships can be fascinating, in the parasocial sense.
Thrawn probably drowned him in a toilet on his star destroyer. That’d be a fitting end to Ezra, the anchor around the neck of Rebels.
I enjoy every primary character in the show except him.
Padmé was reincarnated as Ezra.
I liked Halloween Resurrection.
It’s infinitely better than Halloween Kills.
I think the only Halloweens I didn’t at least have a good time watching are the Rob Zombie ones.
The first one is definitely not a fun watch, but the second one is absolutely delightful in its wackiness and how unapologetically “Rob Zombie” it is.
Speaking of slasher remakes from the '00s-'10s, the Friday the 13th adaptation was the perfect distilling of the first four movies into a single feature. I’m kinda glad it didn’t have a sequel and that the Cunningham-Miller lawsuit has prevented another tacky reboot.
I would restore “Okay, hotshot!” to Han and Leia’s kissing scene.
When Luke first touches his fathers saber he should see flash backs of his father in the Clone Wars.
No, he should see Anakin and Padme boning
It should be a recreation of Two Girls, One Cup with John Williams covering said music.
Also, Chewie should have subtitles that are just Messytails tweets. His fur is brown for a reason now!
Now that I’m thinking about a 2012 start, I’d make the ST take place 100 years after ROTJ. The big three of the OT can appear in flashbacks/ghost form for Luke, but Chewie/R2/3PO would be the only living returning characters. Setting a story 100 years later would give enough room to not feel like it messes too much with the OT. The Legends EU could remain largely untouched, aside from some obvious deletions (the Vong, Abeloth, The Force Unleashed series, etc.).
Another 2012 start element would be (aside from the theatrical cut restorations) to port as many of the classic Lucasarts Star Wars games to modern systems/PC - beyond what’s on Steam/GOG or Xbox backwards compatibility. Rogue Leader and Rebel Strike would be the biggest priority, even if they get limited to just the Switch (IDK how Nintendo’s exclusivity policy works). There’d obviously be no EA exclusivity deal, because EA is just terrible. Petroglyph would be making Empire at War II or maybe even Republic at War.
A new series of special editions, presented as additions to the theatrical cuts/earlier SE’s (like Blade Runner), would also appear. They’d mostly just clean up the OT to better-implement changes George wanted (Anakin ghost, Emperor conversation, Boba voice, etc.), remove overzealous stuff (Rontos, Greedo shooting, Sarlacc beak, etc.), and restore some useful stuff (Tagge calling Vader a sith, Leia saying “ok hotshot,” etc.). PT changes would simply be smoothing over some rough FX and restoring deleted scenes. Maybe the alleged four-hour ROTS would debut as a Disney+ promotion?
But like I said before, it should’ve always been Prowse.
Based and Prowse-pilled. He would’ve even been the right age for Anakin’s PT self in 1983 (mid- to late-40s).
That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.
Really? What is it about Snape’s redemption you find unconvincing (bearing in mind I’m not the biggest Harry Potter connoisseur in the world, but I do like the series)?
If it had been Neville as the chosen one, Severus would’ve had no reason to become Albus’ spy. That and Snape loves tormenting children (especially Neville) and his backstory is vaguely incel-ish. The man takes out his psychological issues on kids and sees no reason to ever stop. Him being Albus’ spy doesn’t redeem him enough, certainly not enough for Harry to partially name his kid after him.
I love that we can now pick this book and movie series apart without judgement. Indeed, they were always shit!
If I bought it in 2012, I’d just have Rian Johnson direct the trilogy and release it over a slightly longer period (six years, not four). The in-between movies would be Rogue One heavily retooled, Solo with Lord/Miller the whole way through, and a Kenobi movie done by Gus Van Sant in the style of Gerry. I’d also release every cut of all the movies and make the Holiday Special canon. If there is TV involved, just make something pulpy and goofy with CW-level production values.
If I bought it now? I’d release every cut of every movie, cobble together extended cuts of the JJ movies to release/heavily re-edit them to remove Rey Palpatine (without telling JJ), and reboot the comics universe. There’d also be a complete cancellation of all future projects save for “Tales of the Jedi” and Andor. I’d mandate that Ahsoka dies in whatever media she appears in next, while Mandalorian gets retooled into something less universe-shrinking. Throw in a “Rey and Broomkid” animated series in the mix, and I’d be set.
The only way I see a plotline of Vader trying to destroy the Empire from within working is if he’s doing it for selfish Sithy reasons, wanting to take Palpatine’s place and continue the whole “rule the galaxy as father and son” thing. Vader is not the kind of person to admit that he’s wrong, he’s the type to double down based on his emotions. Because he can’t let go of anything. Through the whole movie he keeps avoiding the truth and refusing to admit to his feelings. “If that is your destiny.” “There is no conflict.” “If you do not fight, then you will meet your destiny.”
Stretch that out to cover a whole movie instead of one scene, with Luke questioning him more and more. Vader’s realization in the middle of an ROTJ equivalent is that “I did the right thing for the wrong reasons, maybe Luke has a point,” after Luke voluntarily gets captured and stresses the good in Vader. He would have changed for the better, but still think it’s too late for himself to fundamentally change. That is until he’s presented with Palpatine killing his son, when he realizes that he can truly do something good for the right reasons (saving his son and killing his master directly).
I hate to bring up another comparison, but Frieza/Cell Saga Vegeta is a close example of this kind of arc. He may be trying to help the heroes, but he’s still doing so out of awful reasons/despite the badgering of his allies. The first time he does the right thing for the right reasons is to shoot at Cell so that Gohan can overpower him. Like Vader, he does so because this man tried to kill his son (well, Cell actually succeeded for a few minutes).
That kind of arc works and produces a satisfying redemption. However, it sadly wasn’t what Lucas wanted to tell and the saga’s story suffers as a result. But hey, I buy Vader’s redemption infinitely more than I buy something like Snape’s redemption.
You’d be surprised what a pair of coveralls and a ladder will do in lieu of a security clearance 😉
If Dale Gribble can sneak onto an army base and copy confidential documents, it’s not out of the room of possibility in a galaxy far, far away.
What about a remake made entirely in Roblox or The Sims?
Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.
From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.
That’s kinda exactly what it is.
The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.
His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.
You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.
Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.
“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."
There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.
That’s all well and good, but what about Luke’s role? Luke sacrificed himself because the Empire could sense his presence (which is not a great endorsement for future Jedi but still a noble act) but then made his entire quest an attempt to achieve Vader’s bedside conversion. He literally sat idle while shiploads of innocent beings were being annihilated by the Death Star. Even at the last moment, with Vader defeated, Luke threw his weapon aside and declared his own enlightenment - again while a war continued to rage outside. So yeah, hooray for Vader saving his own flesh and blood at the last moment (is that really so unselfish?) but how is any of this remotely helpful to the rebel cause or even ethically sound? The fact that Vader finally caved and saved his own son, after the Emperor had basically written him off anyway (“take your father’s place at my side”), doesn’t strike me as particularly noble…or even helpful given Luke’s complete obliviousness to anything beyond his and Vader’s religious aspirations.
Well, what else was Luke going to do? I don’t want to defend Luke’s actions, but what use would he have been in the battle? He hasn’t been an active duty fighter pilot for some time and risks being shot by a random TIE pilot (of which there were dozens, if not hundreds). On the ground, what can he do beyond slicing down a few stormtroopers and maybe pulling the shield bunker doors open, which are all things the strike team and Ewoks could do?
Luke’s most useful place is on the Death Star, dealing with Vader and the Emperor. Also, if one wants to add the Legends EU idea of “battle meditation” into the mix, Luke’s actions led to the Emperor’s death. The Emperor’s death, through the force, cratered the morale and resolve of the Imperials at Endor. Luke did have an important role within the battle, even though he wasn’t directly involved in the fighting.
Insert a stormtrooper impaled Cannibal Holocaust-style into the background of every Ewok village shot.
Actually, I think making the Ewoks a bunch of bloodthirsty critters would make their victory over the stormtroopers a lot more interesting and believable. Sure, it will never happen due to the PG rating, but making the Endor battle R-rated would honestly be an improvement.
I’m just imagining the Ewoks building entire structures out of stormtrooper skulls, along with stormtrooper armor trophies and captured/tortured imperial officers begging the rebels for escape.
The idea of the Endor conflict being a brutal stalemate between the Empire and the Ewoks would certainly add to the Vietnam War parallel.
Insert a stormtrooper impaled Cannibal Holocaust-style into the background of every Ewok village shot.
You know, that interpretation is entirely legitimate and can work in a story. Like, look at the ending of Better Call Saul, when Jimmy finally confesses to all of his awfulness in court. He gets to spend the rest of his days in prison, but he’s free from his life of lies and Kim is open to him again. The whole arc of Jimmy living as Gene is a good example of making a character suffer before they truly gain a shot at redemption. I don’t really think it’s communicated that well in the OT.
I just don’t find that it works in ROTJ and especially not in the context of the PT. Luke may forgive him, but can the people watching even think about forgiving him? This is guy who led a school shooting, FFS. Nobody is thinking about how one can find the good in Dylan, Erik, or the author of Richard McBeef. That’s a big root of my problem and why I always support fanedits that cut that one scene out. I despise that Kenobi made it Reva’s origin.
Also, Vader can start his redemption arc earlier. Why doesn’t he try to disassemble the empire from within, anonymously send secrets to the alliance (without them knowing it’s him - maybe Piett is a red herring)? It could be narratively satisfying when Luke learns that Vader is the one that gave up imperial secrets, but saddened to learn that Vader did so for dark side reasons.
Vader the secret informant could have dramatic stakes too, as Palpatine could have fed him false information for Endor and Luke could question Vader’s intentions again. It’s through the duel that Luke tries to pull out that call to the light (as he does in the movie), but it becomes more pained for Vader. It’d contextualize Vader killing Palpatine as the culmination of a much longer path in Vader’s life, the final step needed to complete that redemption. Instead of what we got, where it comes off more “rushed.”
Again, my feelings could change on this. They have before and they’ll probably do so again. IDK, I feel like the PT makes me want to see Luke leave Vader to die alone in the throne room and that this franchise has been a deeply mediocre one since 1983. If Vader’s redemption works for you, that’s totally fine. It just doesn’t work for me.
I feel like Zuko’s not a great comparison to Darth Vader. Zuko’s arc relies on him joining the protagonists, his redemption isn’t the end of his story. This isn’t the case for Vader, and I don’t think it should’ve been either.
Yeah, that’s a different and much more enjoyable kind of story for me. Hell, my other example of Odo is a “good guy” who is wrestling with his past as a collaborator in a fascist regime/struggles with relating to his totalitarian species. IDW Megatron is kind of comparable to Vader, in that redemption was more of a spur of the moment decision/reflected a “nobility within,” but the series still made him face the gravity of what he had done. He even worked to dismantle some of the horrors he created - wiping out the Decepticon Justice Division, for instance.
“Redemption equals death”/redemption as the end point of a journey has never stood right with me. I find actively trying to face or even ameliorate one’s misdeeds is much more satisfying and legitimate. It’s why I still feel that ROTJ should have been two movies to properly allow Vader to embrace the light and earn forgiveness from people who aren’t Luke.