I’d rather watch Rich Evans trying to understand Meredith Monk’s Turtle Dreams video. Seriously, I’m glad they introduced me to Meredith Monk’s work.
Covering stuff like Surviving Edged Weapons, Creating Rem Lezar, Easy Kill, Roar, Born Into Mafia, New York Ninja, and Massaging the Elderly seems a lot more rewarding and fascinating.
The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.
He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.
It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.
The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?
If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.
In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?
Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.
Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?
What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.
And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.
In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.
Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.
Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.
As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.
Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.
Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.
There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.
That’s why it’s headcanon. Though I’m pretty sure the idea originated from the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn concludes that the Imperial fleet fell to pieces at Endor because of the loss of the Emperor’s presence holding everything together.
Exactly. To put it in RPG terms, Palpatine’s presence acted as a buff for the whole imperial navy/army at Endor. Once he fell down the reactor shaft, the Empire’s forces were de-buffed and everything went to shit.
I see why Zahn wrote it, because how else does one make sense of Death Squadron’s defeat at Endor (beyond Piett sticking too closely to the Emperor’s orders for the Star Destroyers to hold their fire)?
Death Squadron/Piett’s reluctance to open fire on the rebels, even after the shield went down, is very much communicated on screen. The “battle meditation” is not, but it gives Palpatine’s presence at the battle more weight.
The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.
He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.
It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.
The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?
If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.
In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?
Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.
Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?
What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.
And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.
In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.
Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.
Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.
As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.
Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.
Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.
Maybe the whole “bring balance to the force” thing is a stupid idea and never should have existed in the first place?
I would’ve welcomed all the retconning of controversial PT lore. Chosen one and immaculate conception? Misread prophecy/lies. Midichlorians? Fallacy of the later jedi.
I do like Legends Vader (pre-Force Unleashed) a lot more than canon Vader. He didn’t feel overexposed or overpowered, with plenty of works centering on his loss of humanity and his self-loathing. It could get goofy (e.g., becoming the leader of the space hyenas in The Savage Heart), but I like it more than canon Vader.
This is missing from canon Vader and the franchise is worse off for it:
Starlight, Rekindled, and Ascendant (either version) are pretty darn good.
I was watching Elliot Roberts’ decidedly scathing review of Yesterday, and it got me thinking - that premise would probably work more with Star Wars. A world without Star Wars ever existing would be easier to portray than a world without The Beatles ever existing, especially since it’s more limited to film and television.
…and the big one,
Also, pitching Star Wars in this different universe - would it ever get off the ground or was it purely a product of its temporal and locational context?
DrDre said:
Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe.
I guess one could use the Dragon Ball Z defense for resurrecting characters, but even that manga/anime tried to stick to its own rules about the powers of the different sets of dragon balls/not using the same balls to resurrect characters twice (as of the Cell Saga, at least - it’s been years since I paid attention to the mess of kudzu that is the Buu Saga).
If Reva lost her legs, I’d buy that scene more. She can’t move well, could plausibly survive given the franchise’s rules, and Vader/deformed Grand Inquisitor might consider the job done (since she presumably wouldn’t escape and leaving her to suffer is OK).
It’s a shame. The one upside I thought we’d get out of Obi-Wan and Vader meeting again would be that we’d finally get to see what Vader meant when he said “Obi-Wan once thought as you do.” That’s something that RotS didn’t address properly, so I figured you might as well address it in this show. It wouldn’t be an ideal solution, but it would be something worthwhile. We still don’t have that moment.
Agreed. That was one of my small but too noticeable issues with the show (aside from doing shaky cam in 2:39:1 and the weird-looking lightsabers). We don’t have any moment of Kenobi thinking that Anakin/Vader could really be redeemed. I guess he kind of tried to reach out to Anakin within Vader, but that’s unclear.
I still think “Your mother once thought as you do” would’ve been a better line in 1983 and in every subsequent edition. Give Padmé/mother Skywalker some kind of lingering presence in Vader’s mind.
The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.
He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.
It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.
The Paul Atreides comparison, of Anakin being a false messiah (committing atrocities through their power, generated from their charisma and natural warrior skills), can kind of fit within the PT and OT. I kind of prefer this interpretation, of a false messiah turning into a proper one once all was said and done.
If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one. Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.
But the only thing Anakin did to fulfill that role was kill the Emperor, and since TROS revealed that he did not actually kill the Emperor, he can’t be the Chosen One. It must be Rey.
This is why I like the ghosts at the end of Ascendant (Palpatine and Nobody versions) - Anakin still helps finish the job and it would have been impossible without his deeds in life.
Mike, Jay, and Rich have found video subjects that are far more rewarding than treading that old ground. I’d much rather get a new Best of the Worst/Wheel of the Worst or a re:View about stuff they like/find funny instead of reaching for the same-ol’ anti-PT content that just doesn’t have the same bite anymore.
Still…I really want Star Wars to stop. Please make it stop.
You could always do edibles while watching the Jodorowsky’s Dune documentary. I think the resulting brain mixup will result in forgetting that Star Wars ever existed and being surprised that Paul Atreides is an explicit false messiah in Herbert’s work.
Which reminds me, is Anakin unintentionally a half-decent emulation of Herbert’s Paul Atreides through the PT and Clone Wars (a false messiah)?
I have a good video here, by one of the only good Star Wars YouTubers:
No, the Obi-Wan Kenobi Series Doesn’t Contradict A New Hope by Star Wars Explained.
I always appreciate Alex for not making the typical clickbait videos that other Star Wars YouTubers make.
In a sea of crap like Mauler, Star Wars Elseworlds, Geeks+Gamers, and Mike Zeroh; guys like Alex, Eckhardt’s Ladder, HelloGreedo, and Cosmonaut Variety Hour are shining beacons of light.
It just feels more pointed, you know? I can’t really explain it. Fandom has just been such a contentious space for so long that every argument feels brutal and you suspect every disagreement has some deeply personal venom behind it. I sometimes forget this place isn’t as nasty as Reddit or Twitter. Apologies if I went too far.
When three out of four people disagree it’s not “dogpiling”…you’re being too sensitive for a critical debate.
I’m not being too sensitive. Also, is it really a critical debate when three of four participants agree? Three against one seems like a dogpile to me.
Are we not allowed to like this show here without being reminded about how “wrong” we are for liking an admittedly flawed show? You can like this show without being dismissively referred to as a “fanboy,” right?
Debate is important and part of that is checking other peoples arguments.
I don’t want them to quit the board like Stardust1138 did after he got brutally dogpiled (even if it was semi-justified).
I have a good video here, by one of the only good Star Wars YouTubers:
No, the Obi-Wan Kenobi Series Doesn’t Contradict A New Hope by Star Wars Explained.
I just don’t like when posters get dogpiled, OK? We could all do to be a little nicer.
NVM, not worth it. Not this shit, ain’t fucking worth it.
Yotsuya, you have my support amidst the chorus of boos.
I find it so hard to understand how people can defend the writing on this series and say that it’s well made. In episodes 5 & 6 they used the exact same scenario. What’s worse is that, if you watch these two episodes one after another, this blatant repeating happens within about 15 minutes.
Episode 5: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.
Approx 15 minutes later…
Episode 6: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.
And i bet Qui-Gon is mighty pissed because , in this show, you can get skewered with a lightsaber in the stomach and through the spine and live.
And then there is the final Obi/ Vader fight. It’s set out right from the start of that duel that Obi_wan is prepared to kill vader. “Have you come to destroy me Obi_wan?”. “I will do what i must”. But then lets him live, even after he knows that the person who was once his friend has gone and all that is left is a monster. I know Vader has to survive because of ANH, but doing it this way is ridiculous.
Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.
Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.
I found the series to be well written with care given to filling in the gaps between the PT and OT. It fixed more than it broke and put a new spin on certain events. I found the acting to be superb, the sets to be what I’d expect, the backgrounds fitting, and everything assembled into a nicely finished series. I don’t know that I would change a thing about it, though I wouldn’t mind seeing a film edit of it. Something a little faster paced.
Good grief man…every time.
No need to rag on a guy for providing justifications. I’ve found his posts insightful, even if I disagree at times.
They want to love every bit of the product and combat any actual justified criticisms…stretching logic further. Not “ragging” on em…just blows me away how they can’t understand the flaws. It’s like constantly saying “No it’s super smart, you just don’t get it”.
They do understand the flaws that you see and have tried to explain them logically and soundly. If you feel like you’re being talked down to by them, or they’re acting like an idiot, that’s entirely on you. Can’t they have their own interpretation without people like you leaping down their throats?
I find it so hard to understand how people can defend the writing on this series and say that it’s well made. In episodes 5 & 6 they used the exact same scenario. What’s worse is that, if you watch these two episodes one after another, this blatant repeating happens within about 15 minutes.
Episode 5: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.
Approx 15 minutes later…
Episode 6: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.
And i bet Qui-Gon is mighty pissed because , in this show, you can get skewered with a lightsaber in the stomach and through the spine and live.
And then there is the final Obi/ Vader fight. It’s set out right from the start of that duel that Obi_wan is prepared to kill vader. “Have you come to destroy me Obi_wan?”. “I will do what i must”. But then lets him live, even after he knows that the person who was once his friend has gone and all that is left is a monster. I know Vader has to survive because of ANH, but doing it this way is ridiculous.
Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.
Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.
I found the series to be well written with care given to filling in the gaps between the PT and OT. It fixed more than it broke and put a new spin on certain events. I found the acting to be superb, the sets to be what I’d expect, the backgrounds fitting, and everything assembled into a nicely finished series. I don’t know that I would change a thing about it, though I wouldn’t mind seeing a film edit of it. Something a little faster paced.
Good grief man…every time.
No need to rag on a guy for providing justifications. I’ve found his posts insightful, even if I disagree at times.
Originaltrilogy.com needs better safeguards against spambots.
A quick fix would be for Vader to intentionally turn off his breathing/chest lights for long enough to make Kenobi think he’s dead. He’s got enough oxygen in the suit to prevent brain damage, so why not? Obi-Wan doesn’t know about how the suit works to know it’s still functional.
I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.
Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).
Well, except the part where he vouched for JJ Abrams to direct the Star Wars sequel trilogy :p
It did give us an excellent illustration of Gen X directors interpreting the “betrayal” of their childhood franchises by said franchises’ boomer creators. His two films fit in well with things like Fanboys, The People vs. George Lucas, both recent Ghostbusters movies, and Galaxy Quest - they’re more interesting as examinations of Gen X’s relation to fandom culture/parasocial relationships with creators than they are good movies. Except Galaxy Quest, which is an all-time classic.
I’d throw Fault in Our Stars in there, but the author relationship plot is more of a background element (and is the least exploitative part of the book/movie).
I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.
Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).