Apparently even the writers realized how bad that would be and that’s why they threw in the whole “cloned son” stuff. They got lucky there’s precedence for a clone of somebody being called a son (Boba). The difference is that Jango actually loved Boba, whereas Palps never did to Rey’s dad so it doesn’t make much sense why he referred to him in such a way.
Hang on, just had a thought.
Perhaps Rey is important to Palpatine because she shall be the one to destroy the Skywalker bloodline and restore the Sith.
Her actions in TLJ force Luke to sacrifice himself to save her and the Resistance.
Her stabbing Ben on the Death Star in the current version forces Leia to intervene and save her son at the cost of her own life.
Finally, Ben gives his life in order to save Rey at the end of the film.
Palpatine could view anyone capable of destroying his most hated enemy to be his spiritual heir, worthy of sitting on the Sith throne. He tells Kylo to kill Rey at the beginning because he knows that either Kylo will kill Rey and join the Sith, or Rey will kill Kylo and fulfill her sinister destiny.
Kylo’s speech to Rey on the Star Destroyer would convey this information, letting her know that she was responsible for Luke’s death and would be responsible for Leia’s death as well as his own, unless she joined him now and they destroyed the Emperor outright. He’s telling her that by the end of this every Skywalker will be dead, unless she turns from her path and joins him.
“Why did the Emperor want to kill a child?”
“He didn’t want to kill you, Rey; he believes you to be his heir…the one who will destroy the Skywalkers and restore the Sith. But the prophecy is coming true…Luke is gone, Leia is dying, and I will soon follow, unless we destroy the Emperor…together.”
On the Death Star, this prophecy seems to be coming true in front of Rey’s eyes. She runs to Luke in fear, seeking his perspective of the destiny that is being fulfilled. He tells her that she must still confront that fear by going to Exegol, and Luke reassures her that this will not deter him from supporting her. He gives her Leia’s saber, since he knows that Leia would have still considered Rey family.
Finally, in the confrontation with Palpatine, she is joined by Ben and together they face Palpatine. However, he drains their life-force and so fulfills the part of the prophecy where Rey shall restore the Sith. After this, Ben suffers apparent pit death, and at this point the prophecy seems to be entirely fulfilled.
Then Rey is visited by the spirits of Luke and Leia and they tell her that her journey isn’t over. She must rise and fight for what their family stood for, and bring balance to the galaxy.
The final scene has her confirm that she is the spiritual successor to the Skywalker family.
So this is a version of ‘Rey killed her parents’ except it is forward-looking; she is destined to kill her newly adopted parents.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
This could be good. I also had the idea of maybe Kylo saying that if Rey kills him, she’ll fall and join Palpatine. Like he saw her kill him in a vision, which would be surprising to Rey. So when she almost kills Kylo, it’s what triggers her to go to Ahch-To. So kinda similar to your idea, but a little more big picture with destroying the Skywalkers in general.
I might try to see if I have time to mess with the scene and make clean audio for people to insert dialogue into. If we wanted to replicate the audio 1:1, the new dialogue would need to echo into the other channels. But I could at least make clean channels and then once dialogue is decided, those lines could be added to the other channels.
That would be great to have a clean version of that scene.
What I like about this prophecy idea is that it’s a dark reflection of the prequel prophecy. Anakin was ‘destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force’, while Rey is ‘destined to destroy the Skywalkers and restore the Sith’. And this version is better than the prequel version, because while that version was up to interpretation with regards to ‘balance’ and took six movies to come true, Rey explicitly fulfills the conditions of this dark prophecy by the end of the movie, but in a way that is unexpected and leads to the heroes’ victory.
JEDIT: If it’s important that Rey be nobody, then her backstory could be tied into the First Order child abductions, and this could tie in with Palpatine’s search for his destined heir:
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“He never wanted to kill you, Rey. He wanted to find his heir, one who would fulfill the prophecy he saw when he returned from death.”
“That’s why he commanded the First Order to harvest the galaxy’s children. It wasn’t just to build new armies. It was to find the one who could end the Skywalker bloodline and restore the Sith. But we can stop this prophecy, Rey, if we kill him…together.”
Essentially, the way out of this writing dilemma may be to have Rey’s backstory be shared with multitudes of other families at the time she was born, while her future is governed by a prophesy which applies to her because she just happened to be in the right place at the right time for the Force to use her for its own mysterious purposes. We can cut out the flashbacks to her parents while still keeping the canon broadly intact. Rey’s parents still sold her for drinking money…but only because the alternative was Rey being taken from them by the First Order. Her parents could still be killed, but because they defied the Order, not because they were specifically protecting Rey or believed that she was special.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Alternately, riffing off of your idea of Rey killing Kylo, it could be that Palpatine is seeking a suitable host for his spirit. Palpatine wants Kylo to kill Rey just like Snoke wanted, for this would turn Kylo irrevocably evil and make him a willing host for his evil spirit.
Alternately, Kylo may say in the hangar that Rey is already suitable as a host for Palpatine, which is why Palpatine told Kylo ‘she isn’t what you think’. Rey killing Kylo would merely be more confirmation that she is the one who will be Palpatine reborn, joined to him deeper than blood.
For this idea we could move Palp’s dialogue about his Sith spirit back to the end of the film as it wouldn’t apply to Kylo in that moment, and just fill Rey in on this whole procedure during the hangar scene.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Yeah I think Palpatine’s plan is a worthy discussion to have too.
At one point I considered a potentially option could be something like this:
Palpatine knows Kylo wants Rey (everything with Snoke proved that), so when they meet on Exegol he tells Kylo, “You shall rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor… and Empress…” This gets Kylo to lower his weapon and listen to what Palpatine has to say. And maybe he even tells Kylo his plans to possess her, saying it is the only way he can have her. But Kylo doesn’t want Rey to lose her soul, so he does what he can to prevent her from going to Exegol. Maybe he knows the healing abilities of the Force dyad at this point, or maybe he doesn’t.
Alternatively, and sticking closer to the theatrical, this is another way you can do it:
Palpatine, whose experiment with immortality seems to be slowly failing, offers Kylo Ren to be his successor, maybe even telling him that he has groomed him for this role. That it is his destiny.
But to prove his resolve, he has to kill Rey. But Kylo has had a vision of Rey on the Sith throne. He know Palpatine isn’t telling him everything, and it’s true. Palpatine sees Rey and Kylo fighting as a win/win scenario. Whoever doesn’t die, he can seduce and possess. Palpatine just isn’t aware that their Force bond has the power to actually resurrect him. This basically how Ascendent has it I think, and the the theatrical film as far as I recall, just maybe not as clear as it could be.
Another thing I find interesting is reading the leaks of an earlier version of the film. It seemed like at one point in production, Palpatine was going to appear very weak/frail when Kylo encountered him, maybe even on his death bed. Palpatine was going to tell Kylo about the dyad, and that he wants Kylo and Rey to rule together as a Sith power couple basically. And it seemed that Palpatine was aware that their Force bond had the power to resurrect him (kept that info form
Kylo obviously), and bringing them both to Exegol was his goal from the beginning. I’m guessing they chose not to go that route because they didn’t want Kylo to just be following Palpatine’s orders, or having Palpatine tell Kylo to bring Rey to Exegol would parallel ROTJ too much.
I guess another issue you have with Palpatine wanting Rey to come to Exegol is that you’d think if Palpatine could speak to Kylo in his head, he could basically telegraph to Rey where she could get a Wayfinder in order to come to him. At least by going with the option of Palpatine wants Kylo to kill Rey, you can argue he wants them to fight each other in order to determine which would be the stronger candidate as his new vessel/successor.
I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength at this point, and it’s actually a solution that works with the film quite well, minus the explicit ‘Rey Palpatine’ stuff. I would actually also cut any mention of a Dyad, since it is barely in the movie and Force draining can just be a secret power of Palpatine like Force lightning was in ROTJ. In this version, we don’t really need a lot of exposition about Rey’s past, since it can be essentially the same as TLJ. The only added bit would be to explain Ochi and the dagger, and since it’s definitely a Sith dagger, that means that Rey’s past has to have an element of the Sith interacting with it.
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I know the rest of your story. Rey…”
“You’re lying.”
“You were right…your parents were no one. Worthless scrap dealers from nowhere.”
“Don’t!”
“You remember more than you say. You knew they were never coming back.”
“I don’t want this!”
“You hated them for it.”
“No!”
“But you couldn’t live with your hate.”
(Cut Rey’s vision of her parents…since they are nobodies.)
“You lied to yourself…but that only made your hate stronger.”
“Stop talking.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“Rey, I know how your parents died. They were drunk, on the far side of Jakku, when they were found by an agent of the Emperor. He wanted to know where you were…but your parents couldn’t even remember.”
(Cut vision of Rey’s parents getting killed.)
“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you, Rey. I’ll come tell you.”
…
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“He never wanted to kill you, Rey…he saw what you would become…a powerful host for his corrupted soul.”
“Palpatine told me to kill you, but I know the truth. You are his true prize. There is darkness in you Rey, far more than there is in me. So don’t play his game. We can kill him, Rey…together.”
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Just wanted to assure Nev that I was able to work a bit on the 5.1 for his Leia death scene, and while I am not done yet I will still return to it as I am able.
Cool! There’s no rush on any of this.
Also, I showed the mockup to my girlfriend to get her official report, and she liked it, so that’s iron clad proof it’s good 😉
In particular, she actually appreciated that there was no shot showing Kylo seeing the figure of Han emerging from the mist, because that would be too ‘on the nose’.
However, she was a bit perplexed by Leia’s line of ‘Together, Rey’. It took a minute for her to realize that she was asking Rey to help heal Ben. So perhaps we can run a few more variations of that line to make it more clear what is happening.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
That definitely could be good if you want to keep Rey’s parents being killed by Ochi! I still kinda lean toward cutting that stuff out.
Honestly I’m kinda of surprised you want to cut the Force dyad stuff, because I feel like it compliments your ideas for the Sith throne thematically! And I’m honestly all in on implementing that idea in a future edit. The bonds of human connection being stronger than material greed.
But you are right that it is sort of half-baked as presented in the movie. But I feel like it should be expanded upon to explain things like how their minds are able to connect, and how they are able to pass things physically between themselves. It is definitely beyond anything we have seen before. I think I would just try to set up the idea earlier in the film. My idea has been to try and hint at the Force whispers more in the previous movies leading Rey to the saber and the texts, maybe add Anakin whispering “Rey”, and then in IX reveal/imply that Anakin and/or the Force ghosts brought them together. So earlier in TROS, Kylo has a vision where he hears the voice of Anakin say, “I/we brought you together, a dyad in the Force”. Maybe when Kylo touches Vader’s helmet, or when he picks up the wayfinder. I definitely think it would be nice to set up earlier so we see how Kylo knows about it whenever he tells Rey.
Perhaps you could make it more subtle, but I think using the Force ghosts as sort of a conduit to act on the will of the Force is an interesting way to juxtapose Palpatine’s machinations. There is a hidden battle happening between these two forces. Palpatine manipulating Kylo, Anakin/the Jedi spirits guiding Rey.
I really love Nev’s ideas on the Sith Throne & the “Dark Chosen One” prophecy, so I took a crack at rewriting Kylo’s dialogue without directly contradiciting TLJ. I wound up watching the movie, which helped in figuring out the dialogue’s flow:
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.”
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I know the rest of your story. Rey…”
“You’re lying.”
“The Jedi have a story…a prophecy, really. About the Chosen One.”
“Don’t!”
“Bringing balance to the Force at the cost of peace.”
“I don’t want this!”
“The Sith have prophecies, too.”
“No!”
(Rey & Kylo cross blades)
“My family…see them!”
(Rey sees flashes of the prior movies, specifically the Skywalkers suffering.)
“Palpatine…always the planner.”
“Stop talking.”
“Rey, please…you have to know.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“Your parents did you a kindness if you think about it. You were spared the fate of so many children. Instead of becoming a stormtrooper, you got to make your own choices. And yet, you may not have any choice at all.”
(The Vader monument gets smashed.)
“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s come out of hiding. I’ll come tell you.”
…
(In the hangar) Kylo continues:
“You need to know the truth. The future depends on it.”
“Tell me.”
“The First Order scoured the galaxy’s children, Rey. To find the Chosen One who would destroy the Skywalkers. And it turns out that’s you.”
“Luke sacrificed himself for you. My mother’s living on borrowed time. And only now, with all of the pieces in place, Palpatine makes his revival known. If you kill me, then the Sith will be restored. But we can stop it…together. And take the throne.”
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
What I’ve come to feel, rewriting this scene, is that Kylo’s theatrical lines don’t really match up with Rey’s lines, so I think he was definitely telling her something else in an earlier version of this film, something far more personal and less expository. All of her emotional lashing out and ‘I don’t want this’ doesn’t make sense when he’s talking about some Sith or Jedi prophecy or saying that her parents were loving people who protected her from Palpatine.
So that’s why I’m heavily leaning on the idea that whatever Kylo tells her must be something highly personal to her that she fundamentally doesn’t want to believe, and he has to say this right from the start of the scene, because she almost instantly responds with a tearful ‘You’re lying’. Kylo’s lines about Rey needing to see who she was make sense, but Kylo then following that with ‘I know the rest of your story’ doesn’t seem to warrant such an extreme response from Rey. It’s like he made a direct statement about her that cuts to the core of her being.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
I believe the original film focused almost entirely on the dyad. It’s why there are lingering threads of the two of them being on the throne together in the theatrical release despite no such footage existing. Kylo was probably focusing entirely on how they’ve always been the same person through the Force and it’s their destiny to rule together (Sith prophecy - the rule of two manifested into what it was always meant to be), and how Palpatine is willing to give it to them because of how weak he is. But then the whole “your coming together will be your undoing” twist happens.
If that’s true, then it seems at some point that they decided that the Dyad direction wasn’t working out, and its inclusion in the final film feels practically vestigial, with only two mentions in the entire runtime.
My vote is to perform a full appendectomy. By rewriting the hangar dialogue, we’re already halfway there.
Besides, TLJ already established everything we need to know about Rey and Kylo’s mind link, and even showed how physical matter could pass between them across worlds. There really doesn’t need to be a term for a beSnoke Force power established and explained in the prior movie, since this movie has quite enough new elements such as a rotting clone Palpy and Force healing.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Nev, I adjusted the lines around a bit and I think it accomplishes the same goal but reads a little better in my opinion
Kylo: “Rey… wherever you are… You are hard to find."
Rey: “You are hard to get rid of.”
Kylo: “I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it… I needed you to see it… who you are. I know the rest of your story, Rey.”
Rey: “You’re lying.”
Kylo: “You were right… your parents were no one. You knew they were never coming back.”
Rey: “Don’t!”
Kylo: “You lied to yourself… but that only made your hate stronger.”
Rey: “I don’t want this!”
Kylo: “You hated them for it.”
Rey: “No!”
Kylo: “But you couldn’t live with your hate.”
(Cut Rey’s vision of her parents…since they are nobodies.)
Kylo: “Rey, I know how your parents died.”
Rey: “Stop talking.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
Kylo: “They were found by one of the Emperor’s agents. He wanted to know where you were… but they were too drunk to remember.”
(Cut vision of Rey’s parents getting killed.)
Kylo: “So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you, I’ll come tell you.”
…
Rey: “Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
Kylo: “He never wanted to kill you, he saw what you would become… the most powerful host for his corrupted soul.”
Kylo: “Palpatine told me to kill you, but I know the truth. YOU are his true prize. There is darkness in you Rey, far more than me. But we can end this. We can end him, Rey… together.”
(Removes his helmet)
Kylo: “You know what you need to do. You know.”
Rey: “I know.”
The Star Wars Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX | Rogue One · Solo
What was first just a dream has become a frightening reality…
I like it!
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
This is roughly how I envision it was originally written to be like:
“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.
“You are hard to get rid of.”
“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. We are more similar than you’d like to admit…"
“You’re lying.”
“I’ve never lied to you… your parents did get rid of you. As mine did to me.”
“Don’t!”
“That much darkness in a child - it’s enough to scare anyone.”
“I don’t want this!”
“We hated our parents for it.”
“No!”
“Luke betrayed me… the same way your friends will for you.”
(Brief vision of Kylo’s TLJ backstory and possibly Rey’s friends being hurt)
“The only person who understands you is me.”
“Stop talking.”
(Cutaway to heroes capture)
“Your parents were found by one of the Emperor’s agents. He wanted to know where you were… but they were too drunk to remember.”
(Cut vision of Rey’s parents getting killed.)
“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you, Rey. I’ll come tell you.”
…
“Why did the Emperor come for me? Tell me.”
“He wanted to bring us together, Rey. We are a dyad in the Force. Two, that are one. Unstoppable.”
“You are drawn to the dark, and I to the light. The Sith rule of two was meant to fulfill an ancient prophecy - one that would see the dyad rule the galaxy. We’ll kill him, together, and take the throne.”
(Removes his helmet)
“You know what you need to do. You know.”
“I know.”
I don’t have anything worth adding to the ideas pool but can I just say:
I love this conversation and how you guys are approaching all of this.
❤
Attack of the Clones: Alternate Timeline Edit Thread:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
I believe the original film focused almost entirely on the dyad. It’s why there are lingering threads of the two of them being on the throne together in the theatrical release despite no such footage existing. Kylo was probably focusing entirely on how they’ve always been the same person through the Force and it’s their destiny to rule together (Sith prophecy - the rule of two manifested into what it was always meant to be), and how Palpatine is willing to give it to them because of how weak he is. But then the whole “your coming together will be your undoing” twist happens.
That’s actually true, to a certain degree. According to the infamous Reddit plot leaks from an earlier stage of production, the Rey Palpatine twist was still going to be there, but it was going to be supplemented by a much larger focus on the Dyad, with Palpatine even telling Kylo about it in his introductory scene:
Palpatine begins to reel Kylo in and subsequently tells him of something known as a “Force Dyad”. The Force produces two incredibly strong users and when they unite together, both become stronger than either one could be on their own. Palpatine believes Kylo Ren and Rey to be the two halves of this dyad and shares this knowledge with Rey. (Note: I previously wrote that Palpatine wanted them to become “master and apprentice” since then this has been clarified to me as Palpatine seeking the two members of the Dyad) Palpatine claims that he seeks the Dyad because he is weak and dying and he wants the Dyad to rule together once he’s gone. Palpatine orders Kylo to bring Rey to him and turn her so that the Dyad will be a strong, unified force of darkness.
By the end, of course, it turns out that this was a ruse, and Palpatine drains the Dyad’s energy once both members show up on Exegol.
If I had to guess why they didn’t go with this in the final movie, it would probably be to give Kylo more agency, rather than just blindly following Palpatine’s orders. That is a legitimate concern, but I feel like it still would have contributed a lot to the movie for the Dyad to be part of Palpatine’s plans from the very beginning. That way, the life-draining scene at the end would actually feel like Palpatine’s traditional 4D chess, rather than him just happening to stumble across the power he needed.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
That’s a good reconstruction, JJ! It makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately the Dyad may as well not be in the final film.
Anyway, I’m still struggling with Rey’s backstory. The unsolvable issue here is that Rey can’t truly be a nobody and also connected to the Sith, as she appears to be based on the dagger and Ochi and the ship.
Here’s just a wild idea, throwing it out there just to say it: What if we combine ‘Rey killed her parents’ with ‘Rey’s a nobody with no Force power’? The idea would center around the Sith dagger, the only unequivocal connection between Palpatine and Rey’s past.
Rey’s parents travel to Jakku, destitute and needing money. They agree to sell Rey to Unkar Plutt and immediately spend this money on booze. That night they party and pass out drunk. Rey, meanwhile, is wandering forlornly around the desolate settlement and has been drawn to something in a junk pile: a mysterious dagger. It calls out to her, and she grabs it from the pile. She approaches her parent’s ship with the dagger in hand, waking up the next morning with her hands covered in blood. She is found by a scavenger named Ochi, who takes the dagger from her and takes her back to Unkar Plutt. Ochi relinquishes her, but pockets the dagger. As Rey is being washed up, she hears the sound of her parent’s ship taking off, and she races outside to see it streaking up into the sky. She calls out to her parents to wait for her, but the ship disappears into the sky.
The dagger, it turns out, is a Sith artifact that points the way to Exegol, but only for those who are in tune with its dark power. Ochi gradually fell to its power, but nobody had ever used the dagger more readily than Rey. By this act she proved herself worthy of joining the cult of the Sith Eternal.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Here’s just a wild idea, throwing it out there just to say it: What if we combine ‘Rey killed her parents’ with ‘Rey’s a nobody with no Force power’? The idea would center around the Sith dagger, the only unequivocal connection between Palpatine and Rey’s past.
Rey’s parents travel to Jakku, destitute and needing money. They agree to sell Rey to Unkar Plutt and immediately spend this money on booze. That night they party and pass out drunk. Rey, meanwhile, is wandering forlornly around the desolate settlement and has been drawn to something in a junk pile: a mysterious dagger. It calls out to her, and she grabs it from the pile. She approaches her parent’s ship with the dagger in hand, waking up the next morning with her hands covered in blood. She is found by a scavenger named Ochi, who takes the dagger from her and takes her back to Unkar Plutt. Ochi relinquishes her, but pockets the dagger. As Rey is being washed up, she hears the sound of her parent’s ship taking off, and she races outside to see it streaking up into the sky. She calls out to her parents to wait for her, but the ship disappears into the sky.
The dagger, it turns out, is a Sith artifact that points the way to Exegol, but only for those who are in tune with its dark power. Ochi gradually fell to its power, but nobody had ever used the dagger more readily than Rey. By this act she proved herself worthy of joining the cult of the Sith Eternal.
That would be a cool idea for a rewrite, but I don’t see any way it could possibly be pulled off in a fanedit. It would need tons of new footage that we literally don’t have.
As of right now, I’m leaning more towards the “ancient prophecy” angle as being the reason why Rey feels like she’s destined to turn evil. Maybe there could be a prophecy that Rey is destined to “destroy the Jedi”, only for that to actually mean that she’ll create a new order of Force users that rejects the old dogma? I don’t know, I’m just spitballing.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
Nev, does Rey really have to be connected to the dagger and Ochi and the ship? I feel like all of this can be changed, and trying to stick with it really just limits what you can do with this movie. You said you wanted to perform a full appendectomy. I think THIS is what needs to be removed here.
Why don’t we cut out all of the plot bullshit and make these scenes more character-focused conversations? To me, talking about Rey’s parents being killed by Palpatine, or some prophecy that she is tied to, is not compelling or relatable. It’s all exposition. There are no “scenes”, it’s all just plot. Set piece to set piece. I’m truly wondering if the conversation was just more general, like Kylo making an argument for the dark side, if it could be worded in a way that is actually compelling for an audience. At least more compelling than trying to communicate a complicated previously unknown origin story for Rey. Are there ways that we can make this conversation go in a way that can make people think about their own moments of weakness? To think about times we wanted to take the quick and easy path to get what we wanted? Or how we might really be bad people and we’re just fooling ourselves by trying to avoid that truth?
I just think this could be a great opportunity to put a little more meat on the bones of this movie. If you think about a lot of moments in the other Star Wars movies that we love, oftentimes the things the characters talk about or say are things we can somehow apply to our own lives and experiences. Like when Yoda talks about the Force. We might not believe in the Force, but think of the way Yoda describes it, “life creates it, makes it grow, it’s energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous being are we, not this crude matter”. I think a lot of people can’t help but feel something spiritual when they hear this. It’s vague enough to be applicable to us regardless of our religious views. Or this conversation on the dark side:
Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive.
See? There’s no lore or plot mumbo jumbo. Yoda’s not talking about kyber crystals or philosophies of the Ashla and the Bogan. It’s the good side and the bad. I feel like a lot of fans heard this conversation about the dark side and couldn’t help but relate it to their real life experience in some way. “Would I be able to recognize the difference between doing the the good thing or the bad?”
My initial pitch for the duel convo basically boiled down to Kylo telling Rey that she has power, but can’t control it. And that he could help her learn how to. But I’m wondering if it could be something that is a little more clear or consistent with how the dark side is portrayed in the rest of the franchise. So, what if Kylo said stuff about how Rey is screwing herself over by trying to bottle up the dark side within her?
No idea for specifics, just spitballing, but here are some examples of lines he could say:
You’re not ready to face Palpatine. You don’t have enough time. But the dark side can get you where you need to be.
You’re holding back.
The dark side is a part of you. If you don’t accept it, it will tear you apart. Without it, you are unbalanced. You’re losing yourself. And you will lose your friends too.
I can’t find the video, but there’s one Rise of Skywalker review that discusses the Chewie “death” scene. In it, the reviewer states that if Rey could’ve used the dark side and succeeded at what she was trying to accomplish, it would’ve made the potential of her falling more believable. Even though we can’t really change that, I think we can get a similar idea across with what we’re given. I think we (and through the film, Kylo) have to frame Rey’ hurting and potentially hurting her friends as a product of her inability to accept the dark side within her. She’s holding back, bottling it up. And because of that, it erupts at the worst moments. She can’t accomplish her goals. And during the Force bond duel, you could even have Kylo reference Nev’s version of their forest duel in TFA, where she tapped into the dark side and actually defeated him. Proving his point.
You could even frame their encounter on Pasaana all as Kylo intentionally testing her. When he is flying towards her, he could say, “Do it” or “Show me” in his cockpit. When the Knights of Ren see Chewbacca, maybe they could even say something like, “The bait.” All of it was just to show Rey how unbalanced she is. She’s strong but she’s a mess. The dark side is the quick and easy path, and Rey is out of time to train (which would tie into her obsession with training more at the beginning of the film). Even though I think the film is better off with the removal of the clearly stated time period they are racing against, I do think having the sense of a race against the clock that the movie has helps as another argument for why Rey might give in. She’s out of time to train, she’s not strong enough.
And you can even tie the McGuffin’s into this. We already kind of have with the dagger whispering to Rey, but what if the whispering started off unintelligible, but by the time she reaches the Wayfinder, we can hear actual words. Maybe some of it is actual directions, like, “Come. Follow. Higher. Closer.”, but maybe we could also hear the Sith code being recited hypnotically, or pieces of it. Or maybe words that sew more doubt into her. “Unworthy. Not ready. Unbalanced. Lost. Weak. Alone.” Stuff like that. I could even picture a version of the approach where the whispers are now a chorus of load shouting, yelling over each other, almost symbolic of anxiety or someone’s inner voices feeding into their insecurities. Just to the point of being overwhelming, Rey grabs the Wayfinder and… silence. Relief. But just as she thinks she is free, the manifestation of her insecurities appears before her. And then she fights it, and when Dark Rey sneers at her, we can have it say “Weak!” in a sneering tone to match. The whole quest and encounter should just be digging into Rey’s doubts and insecurities.
While I don’t think any new revelations should be given about her parents, Kylo could maybe even suggest that her parents may have given her up because they were afraid of her (Like his parents may have been afraid of him).
And that ties into another thought I had. What could make the new dialogue scenes even greater is if we added some subtext to it. For example, Kylo might be going on and on about Rey’s problems, not committing to the dark side or whatever, but we know that he still also struggles with that. Even after everything, he still feels the pull to the light. His parents have been like an anchor, keeping him from being pulled into the riptide of the dark side despite his best efforts.
And maybe that ties into what he is offering Rey that is different than Palpatine. If she joins Palpatine, she’ll go full dark. But if she joins Kylo, maybe he think they can achieve some misguided view of balance. She can be his anchor and he can be hers. Kylo might be thinking, “maybe that’s why I still feel the pull to the light”. If she shifts closer to the dark, he’ll shift closer to the light. They’ll find peace, he’ll finally be at peace. And that might even help set up this idea Nev is beautifully playing with m Kylo’s conscience (in the voice of Han) staying his hand the moment before he kills Rey. He thinks Rey is gonna fix his problems, but the solution to his inner peace is actually within himself.
Nev, I actually was initially surprised you wanted to drop the dyad idea, at least explicitly, but I’ve realized that his opinion on that actually perfectly lines up with what I’ve been saying on this post. So yeah, now I agree with Nev that maybe Kylo and Rey’s connection doesn’t need to be named per se. Maybe even when Palpatine first gets a taste of their Force bond, you could change his lines from “A dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations” to something else. Those first two sentences are said on screen but Palpatine’s face is out of focus so perhaps it could be changed. But I like the idea that Palpatine zaps them, feels it, and is like, “What the hell is this? I’ve never seen anything like this.” I just like the idea that despite all of his power and planning, Palpatine would fail to comprehend the possibility of a bond between two people, enhanced by the Force, being so powerful.
Anyway, I’m sorry I just keep saying the same stuff over and over again. Maybe it’s just me, and I can stop if it’s getting annoying. I just feel like the solution is in simplifying things, and I worry that trying to invent a new elaborate backstory for Rey is missing what is important in order to make Rey’s journey in this movie more relatable and compelling.
I think these are really good points and ideas. RotJ really works at the end because Luke faces so much temptation. Rey has a tending towards the dark but that temptation could really be emphasised.
Speaking of the dagger, now that it operates by whisper rather than the absolutely contrived pointing, it’s remaining flaw as a plot device is that the good guys stumble upon it in an absolute quirk of chance. Perhaps it could be implied that it’s somehow drawn Rey to it- either through Palpatine’s machinations or its own.
I think these are really good points and ideas. RotJ really works at the end because Luke faces so much temptation. Rey has a tending towards the dark but that temptation could really be emphasised.
Speaking of the dagger, now that it operates by whisper rather than the absolutely contrived pointing, it’s remaining flaw as a plot device is that the good guys stumble upon it in an absolute quirk of chance. Perhaps it could be implied that it’s somehow drawn Rey to it- either through Palpatine’s machinations or its own.
Regarding the dagger, see my comment in the Ascension thread.
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Rise-of-Skywalker-Ascendant-Released/id/71835/page/684#1569710
To the random nature of them finding the dagger: The only thing i could think of is getting rid of the chase completely and inserting an AI line in the Lando conversation that mentions a dangerous cave. Then we cut away to the Knights of Ren or something and the next time we see the group they are already in the cave. No idea if that would flow well, but it would take away the random nature and maybe even slow down the pace a bit by taking out an action scene.
Real nice write-up, RogueLeader! I agree that the best scenes in Star Wars are the ones where the characters are just laying out their motivations and inner conflicts, without any plot stuff to get in the way. Honestly, I actually think removing the exposition from the Force bond duel would make it a way better scene: there are some really great visuals there that get sort of ignored because the audience is focused on how stupid the new plot twists are.
Here’s a rough concept for some more character-focused dialogue in the first half of the Force bond scene:
KYLO: I pushed you in the desert because I wanted to see it. I wanted you to see it. Your true self. The dark side is in your nature… Rey.
REY: You’re lying.
KYLO: I’d never lie to you. I’ve seen it in your eyes. Ever since we first met, so long ago.
REY: Don’t!
KYLO: You were just like me. Alone, afraid.
REY: I don’t want this!
KYLO: And most of all, angry.
REY: NO!
They clash sabers, before separating.
KYLO: Back then, I remember thinking…
REY: Stop talking!
KYLO: “You would make an excellent Sith.”
I’ll try to post more later.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
Okay, here’s the rest of the Force bond duel:
KYLO: Stop fighting! Stop resisting your destiny!
They clash again, and Rey moves to the edge of the room.
KYLO: You can’t keep your darkness bottled up forever. It will come out eventually, whether you like it or not. Why not just accept it?
REY: NOO!!
They clash some more, destroying the Vader monument.
KYLO: So that’s where you are.
They lock sabers one last time.
KYLO: You know why the Emperor wants you dead.
REY: No.
KYLO: I’ll come tell you.
And the hangar scene:
REY: Why did the Emperor come for me?
KYLO: Because he saw what you would become. He saw a vision, of a girl killing him, and taking his throne. That girl… was you.
Rey recoils in shock. Kylo begins to step forward.
KYLO: He’ll do everything in his power to stop you, but I know he won’t succeed. Your destiny is to rule the galaxy, sitting upon the proud throne of the Sith.
Rey reaches the end of the hangar, and looks back at Kylo.
KYLO: Join me, and we can rule together.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX