zombie84

SilverWook said:

I could have sworn the disclaimers that used to appear in front of colorized films when shown on tv were a tangible result of those lobbying efforts?

 They were.

I don't know why SWTrilogy doesn't have a "This film has been modified to include material not in the original release" disclaimed the way films are supposed to. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the studio doesn't own copyright on them.

A puppet wouldn't be any more difficult to composite in. Either way, you'd have to rotoscope out the old puppet to create a clean plate and then comp in a new element which matches the camera angles and lighting. With CGI you have more freedom to change it after the fact, but with technology these days you have almost the same freedom with live action, as you can see the composites real-time as you are filming to make sure it matches.

I don't think he is that hard to understand guys. He's not an alien species that needs to be disected. He's the way a lot of fans are--the sort of middle ground people. Ken, like many people, knows it's important for the originals to be released, and would gladly own them. However, to them the SE is the same basic movie, which I would wholeheartedly agree with, and a version of the film that is more than acceptable. It's fun and enjoyable to watch. While they do regret the absence of the OOT, it's not a dealbreaker. They respect George Lucas and approve of his efforts, and respect that he is doing things the way he wants, although they may not necessarily like all the enhancements (for that matter, many people here would change some of the original effects and edits as well--see Adywan, Legacy edition, etc.).

So, they basically just like Star Wars as it is. Not hard to figure out. That's why, even though they may want the OOT, they aren't going to bash the hell out of GL for withholding it.

dark_jedi said:

zombie84 said:

The final product will be a DVD with 2.0 sound (as the deleted scenes are 2.0).

Couldn't you upmix the 2.0 to 5.1? then you could keep the main DD 5.1 audio, this is how I do my edits, and I used Womble as well, but I did NOT upmix the 2.0 in Womble, it does not sound right done in womble, has an echo effect LOL.

 May I ask what you ended up doing?

-Not using FC. Using the archival version with the older colour timing. This matches the other versions better, although not all scenes match perfectly. Since I am cutting in Womble, I won't be CC'ing it. There might be a few shots I might have to export to Premier and correct there and then re-import, but I'm not sure if I'll be doing this. The film is polished enough, but I'm using raw dailies and workprint material as a sort of "Lost Cut" type reconstruction so I'm not so hung up on making this "Finished" quality.

Generally, everything matches with the exception of a couple odd bits, although if you are looking for perfect matching you will see that the contrast and hue levels might be different for footage added within a scene; hopefully, you will too involved in the film to notice. I am avoiding any footage that is so mismatched as to detract from the viewing experience.

-The WP ratio will not be corrected. WP material is used pretty sparingly and unless you are looking for it, you won't notice the aspect ratio change. You are more likely to notice the mismatched source quality if anything, but I've avoided instances where there is massive quality differences.

The final product will be a DVD with 2.0 sound (as the deleted scenes are 2.0).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsG39SG55Pw

15 minute preview from the early part of the movie.

That's probably because these days most 16 year olds don't watch the OOT. They only do that once they mature.

Nope, all of the footage represents the film as it is existed at the time of production and using only material from the original production. The way I am trying to approach it is that it is a glimpse of the Blade Runner that could have been but never was.

The Kaiburr crystal was in book two already. If I remember correctly, Luke ends up with it after defeating Vader so I guess it could come back in book three, a sort of secret power to defeat Vader for good or something.

As the author of Secret History, I can tell you that my research gave me nothing beyond what is stated in the book. Vader confrontation, with his past confronted, Empire defeated, etc., but nothing too specific. The fact that he entered the ESB story conferences in late 1977 with screenwriter Leigh Brackett shows that he didn't really have very many specific ideas for the sequels.

The alternative narration creates the atmosphere of a hard-boiled, Spencer Tracy-like detective film. In the 1982 theatrical version, Harrison Ford had redundant narration that he recorded in a deadpan fashion. In the alternative recording sessions, combined with unused footage, it not only enriches the plot, but also develops the characters. This weekend, I'll try to post two 20-minute secontions on Youtube. It's quite astounding how much the film changes, especially with the deleted scenes. The quest for mortality, the blurring of the line between human and non-human, and many other issues become much more pronounced, plus Deckard takes on a bigger "leading man" role. In some ways, this feels like the film people wished was released in 1982. The DC/Final Cut is cool in its own way, obviously, with its poetic, almosy 2001-like obscureness, but this is more in the line of a detective sort of "Blade Runner: Future Noir".

After playing around with the workprint footage, I am definitely scaling it back. The aspect ratio change is a bit of a problem, but the difference is not extreme so it's not a deal breaker; the problem is that the contrast and just general murkiness makes it uncuttable most of the time, it just won't cut in with the regular footage without jumping out at the audience, and it's hard on the eyes too. The alternate opening sequence works very well and will stay. The alternate climax is in for now, but certain parts of it are quite murky and hard to see, so I might axe it in favour of the theatrical version (it also makes cutting in dailies footage all the more difficult, both because of the clarity and low contrast and also because of the different aspect ratio).

Finally, there is an alternate opening credits, but I think I am just going to stick with the workprint credits. I could make it work to have them both in, but the music transition isn't very smooth and I don't think the alternate credits really adds anything.

Otherwise it's all coming along rather well. The running time is about 2 hrs 1 minute right now, and I expect it will stay that way even with a few added shots since there are a few more trims I would like to make. I don't know exactly how much of the total film is comprised of theatrical version footage but I would say about 35% so this is quite a radical re-interpretation of the film. Few films have this much alternate and cut footage available to the public.

Sooo, in case anyone remembers this project, little sidenote. I got distracted with other things which pushed this into summer of 2008, then my harddrive crashed and took everything with it. So, I sorta gave up on this.

Spur of the moment, I decided to do this again today. I'm getting close to finishing a rough cut, and hopefully can have it out by end of next week. Luckily, my original post was a good guide for me to quickly reconstruct the original. This is just being done in Womble, so the quality will not be amazing or anything, but seeing the first pass at this for the first time, I'm amazed at how different the film plays out.

To do still:

-Add the workprint footage. I've tossed aside the idea of using workprint audio where possible--too much work. I'll probably use it for the piano scene though, because it sounds really cool. Where possible, I'll also be cutting the theatrical picture to match the workprint editing, rather than using the workprint itself unless it has unique shots (don't know why I didn't think of this earlier). It will mainly be the opening scene and climax sequence that is comprised of workprint footage. Because it is self-contained sequences, I may not crop it and leave it as 2.20 or whatever it is.

-Add the dailies footage. I don't think I am going to go quite as extreme as I originally wanted, just out of laziness. Def having the replicant dog, Batty electrocuting himself, tub girl (hehe), Pris with rats, and a couple neat shots I remember from Deckard's apartment. I need to go through some of the docs and see if there is any other footage that really sticks out.

-Sound work. Need to make the audio smooth, also having some sync issues that seems to plague Womble. You can't really do audio effects in Womble can you?  Anyway, there isn't much sound editing to do other than fading the levels on the transitions, which I haven't figured out how to do just yet and aren't sure if it's possible in Womble.

I'm also taking the slightest of liberties with my own cuts. This is because, with all the extra footage, some sections become bloated and dragging, and the pacing changes too, so I am taking a couple trims to some scenes (for instance, the Zhora chase sequence now needs to be trimmer and quicker). I'm also not sticking totally faithfully to the deleted and alternate scenes, so even if you've seen them this will be new. This was because the alternate versions ended up basically narrating the entire film in voiceover and skipping huge sections, so it sounded like a narrated version of the real film. For instance, the Zhora chase is skipped in the alternate scene--I've kept the abbreviated intro with all the voiceover, but instead of cutting to Zhora being shot, I cut to the fight in the dressing room, so this exciting scene can remain intact. The film needs some action at this point and I don't want it to become boring to watch, but I've also done some subtle tightening of the hunt scene. So some of the narrated alternate scenes are broken up with dramatic footage. I think this makes it more like a hard-boiled detective film, which had this kind of structure rather than relying on narration to move whole sections of the film (it's surprising how much narration there is in the alt scenes).

I also am for the moment including both alternate endings, edited into each other (with one brief, redundant moment snipped out, since we see this happen in the first version--"This is the happiest day of my life". Seemed dumb to have her say it, and then Deckard tell us that she said it).

One thing I have noticed is that deleted scenes are timed more neutral and with more midrange, while the actual film is more blue and with more contrast. Sometimes this looks a bit noticeable while cutting back and forth but oh well.

So yeah. I think Blade Runner fans will find this interesting to watch, even if it's not going to be spectacularly polished in the technical sense. Hope to have this available soonish.

I have a feeling a lot of these are the ones that appeared in 1983's The Making of Return of the Jedi, by John Peecher. That was a good book. I bet Marcia Lucas' interview for that book won't be making the final cut for the new one.

Gaffer Tape said:

Anchorhead said:

That's the saddest part of the entire franchise to me - the ever changing original vision and some people's inability to see that there is no such thing.  Nor was there ever such a thing, beyond the 1977 theatrical release.

Exactly.  Anyone new coming into the franchise, and especially people born after it was created, are only going to believe what they are told, as they have no frame of reference to dispute it.  I came into the franchise in 1995.  While that meant I could mostly see the revisionist history concerning the prequels and the special editions, I don't think I realized until I came here that, for example, the original Star Wars didn't always say "Episode IV A New Hope."  I'd assumed that was always there.  My frame of reference was 1995 and the set of interviews that came with the Faces set.  So I always just took it as a matter of course what Lucas said in those:  that the trilogy was one big movie split into three parts because it was just soooooo damned epic and amazing and long.  Since I wasn't there at the time, I had no reason to question it!

 Me too. I had been watching SW since I was in diapers, and I had read Skywalking when I was 10, but I think the Faces interviews was the first time I ever saw George Lucas in live video talking about the films.

I remember a few years later, though, thinking, hmm, the synopsis of the early drafts in Skywalking doesn't sound much like the way Lucas describes them. But hey, I'm sure Lucas is right, he wrote the thing after all.

I guess Secret History of Star Wars began the moments I started going beyond the films themselves. :p

Walt Disney. He built his whole reputation on this sort of mythical romance regarding his company and himself. You know, the whole sort of "wonderful world of Disney[land]" sort of thing.

Think about this: a guy states he has avoided a forum because he has heard a lot of bad things about intolerant mods and users but wants to give it a shot and extend an olive branch because he states it doesn't matter if you like or dislike the prequels and wants to join in the community.

He gets banned for this.

Imagine a thread like that anywhere else. Imagine it here. We would be welcoming him and telling him that if he just keeps himself in check, as he has stated he will do, then he will find there are a lot of nice people here with interesting thoughts and opinions.

But nope. They demonstrate the very bad things he stated he had heard about that had kept him away. Instead of demonstrating them to be exaggerations, they confirm. Thread deleted, user banned. Sieg heil!

Also, it's pretty clear that Luke is trying to bang her in Empire. He says he is in love with her in an early draft, in the final draft Leia kisses him on the mouth, in the rough cut she gave him tongue, and because Ford hadn't agreed to do SW3 it is Luke and Leia who are left at the end of ESB with their arms around each other (wonder how that would have played out in SW3?). Plus, Gary Kurtz has said that Leia was never the sister and that the sister was another Jedi character. Lucas says this during the ESB story conferences of 1977 and he has her character mentioned in his 1978 ESB second draft (and no, it's not Leia).

Plus, it's just obvious from watching the films.

So, conclusively, it was an idea implemented into the storyline post-ESB. There was a sister character in ESB, starting in the story conferences and ending up in the final film--the "Other"--but it was a character distinctly separate from Leia. He combined her with Leia in SW3 because he no longer wanted to do the sequel trilogy in which she would/could have featured.

BloodnoseThePirate said

The thread was then deleted and I was banned. So, I want to know some your thoughts and horror stories about theforce.net.

 

Edit: oh yeah and the thread title was "why can't we be friends"

 I can maybe understand why it was closed, because maybe they thought it would just stir the pot and you haven't been there long enough to fully understand what is and isn't tolerated--although I don't really agree with this. But banning you? Seriously? I mentioned it in another thread, but that place has just become a joke. I wouldn't even expect the Official site forums to be that bad. What did they say in the banning message?

WhatsMyName said:

Plus, the whole Luke Leia, Bro, Sis deal. That was planned when GL first wrote Star Wars. Does anybody there watch documentries?

 The documentaries say that, but it's not really true. The Luke-Leia thing was first written in only after 1980. But you don't need to investigate the matter, anyone who was around at that time--including Mark Hamill--would have sworn Lucas was just pulling one out of his pants at the last second.

TV's Frink said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9kwjASPnHY

 Holy crap Frink, this was as funny as your Duel of the Fates scene. Love the part where Kenobi is throwing around the droids. :D

Also, is this like some sort of hipster Star Wars fan? He like the prequels because he finds their poor quality ironically amusing while the "traditionally" good ESB bores him? This is hardly an endorsement of the films when you admit they suck and are inferior to the OT (yet this is supposedly the very reason they are better than the OT in a nonesenical circular argument).

Also...he slashed him with a Magic: The Gathering card. I mean, "slashing", come on. He pestered some random guy in the line about abortion, and probably other things, finally started making utterly inane comments about how video game Yoda is better than the most lifelike puppet in movie history before the guy finally shoved him aside with a nerdy playing card, which cut him. This turns into "I got slashed in the neck by an OTer and had to go the hospital because I like the prequels," sounds like a fairly one-sided story, would be interesting to hear from the other dude how it went down.

TFN was known for its staunch anti-bashing mod policies and a lot users there got away with a double standard with regards to persecuting critical posters, and there was even a group that called itself "The PT Defence Force" or something that just went around looking for posts to defend the PT whenever someone was criticising it. So, someone suggested that there could be a thread there called the Bashers Sancturary where people could just discuss the films in a critical way or just plain bash them, without anyone going after them. In 2006 some new mods finally decided to close it, along with the purging of a lot of its members,  and so eventually Outerimsieges.com started their own Basher's Sanctuary with a lot of the main posters from the TFN thread.

TFN used to be an okay place. It had its ups and downs and there were a lot of controversies and rivalries and its always been insanely over-modded to the point of censorship, but you didn't have to look far to find interesting discussion, and there were lots of cool people there, even if you didn't agree with their views. Increasingly, its become a colony of creepy Lucas and Prequel Apologists who can't accept anything contrary to their own perfect little bubble, and the discussion is just awful. A lot of the more intelligent posters slowly drifted elsewhere because of all the weird zealots there. I'm sure you can still find some generally intelligent topics there, but sifting through the all the crap its buried in....it's just a different place than it used to be. It's weird and unpleasant to be there now, and this is from someone whose username bears a 1999 registry and has racked up thousands of posts there. The official forums were sort of like this, and its the reason I never made a single post there, and now I feel like in the last year or two TFN has become like this. Its sad, because I miss good SW discussion and liked that TFN had so many members, there used to always be a couple good threads active in every board.

Does anyone know what happened there? I know the Bashers Sanctuary closed down in 2006 or so, but a lot of its members still posted there for years. I remember there used to be a lot of people who knew a lot of interesting things about the series and had very intelligent opinions, not necessarily "bashers" or "gushers" but just regular, intelligent Star Wars fans. I don't know where these people went, but I've barely posted there for like two years and whenever I go back I realize why this is. I feel like it never used to be this extreme.