logo Sign In

zombie84

User Group
Members
Join date
21-Nov-2005
Last activity
12-Jan-2024
Posts
3,557

Post History

Post
#230933
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Okay so here is a rundown:

-1977: original crawl
-1981: new crawl, backdrop unknown
-1980's-1990's: 1981 crawl recomposited on a non-1977 starfield background
-1997: 1981 text composited on original starfield backdrop
-2006: 1977 crawl with original starfield (whether genuine or not)

I am almost absolutely positive that the EOD clip is from a film source. Not only are all the outtakes and vintage clips from that doc taken from film sources, the crawl in this doc has some subtle jitter as well as a little subtleties like fading, scratches and grain that you come to be familiar with from watching thousands of hours of film footage. It certainly looks like a twenty-five year old film source to me. Also, if they had not the original 1977 element it would not have been necessary to go through the trouble to re-created it, they simply could have omitted it; furthermore, since most of the footage from that doc is from archival 35mm footage dug up from the original negatives in the Lucasfilm archives it would stand to reason that they obtained the original crawl and trasfered it. So I don't think there is any credence whatsoever to the notion that this is artificial. I am certain it is genuine. Zion's 35mm copy is also identical to it.

So here we have established what the original crawl looked like. Regarding the colours being different, they are actually closer to the original colours than the video versions (naturally); the original crawls were more of a deep yellow-orange colour, while the videos were more of a bright golden-yellow colour (the DVD is unintentionally closer to the original colouring since the black levels are brought down).

The only thing missing is an original film source of the 1981 ANH crawl. They totally re-filmed the opening crawl with a new text element--would it stand to reason that they also used a new starfield background as well? If they used a new backdrop they would have had the unfortunate problem of blending the two together for the tilt-down, which would be accomplished through a dissolve--someone here seemed to recall this actually being the case. Seeing as it was so recent after Star Wars, some might think it possible that the original starfield backdrop was still available, though I think its a stronger possibility that it was a new backdrop--how many starfield backdrops are used in the film, like 60? They were just made by randomly punching holes in plexiglass (or something like that) and thus were not recorded in reference photos or blueprints and were almost certainly discarded after the shots were filmed in 1977. The only possibility is that the actual background plate was still available for compositing.

Then on home video a starfield backdrop different from the 1977 one appears. This could be due to many things. The first is that the telecine process gobbled up the original starfield, though this would mean that the other starfield shots in the film (ie every special effects shot) would also need to be re-created, which obviously did not happen. The second is that it is perhaps an alternate version of the 1981 crawl that was done using a different starfield. Another is that is simply is the 1981 crawl, which used a different backdrop. Another is that, for some unknown technical reason, it was felt that the crawl should be re-done and another version made using a newly-created starfield and re-compositing the 1981 text over it.

Then in 1997, the crawl returns to the original 1977 starfield, only with the 1981 text. This may be due to many factors. In the making of the special edition, all the original elements and outtakes were unearthed--perhaps the original starfield was discovered and a new version of the crawl (or perhaps the 1981 text itself) composited over it. The other possibility is that the 1981 crawl was found and used, meaning that the 1981 crawl used the original starfield backdrop. This however rules out the possibility that the home video crawl was re-created due to technical reasons (i.e. jitter, damage, starfield exposure). However, this may also illiminate another possibility about the home video crawl--it was merely a standard-definition video re-creation, and thus could not possibly be used for theatrical exhibition. Thus, this would mean the 1997 crawl is either the original 1981 element or a new version made in 35mm resolution from the original 1977 backdrop element. I would say either one of these is strongly possible.

My theory is this: We know that many of the special effects shots were totally re-composited for the SE. They scanned in the original 35mm bluescreen elements and backdrops and digitall re-composited them, eliminating dupe grain and matte lines. I would say that the opening shot--the opening crawl which then tilts down to Tatooine to reveal the Tantive IV and stardestroyer--would have been in fairly poor condition and very scratched and grainy because of the title composition and all the editing done to this clip over the years. Therefore, in my mind, it is almost certain that the shot was re-composited. This would allow for the original starfield to be recovered, if not from an original background plate then simply from the original composite negative, and the ships and crawl to be totally re-composited; it would make sense, seeing as it was the SE, to simply make a high-quality digital re-creation of the crawl, free of jitter or grain, that could be composited seamlessly into the original scene.

Whatever the case, it was carried over into the 2004 DVD, meaning that both the 1997 and 2004 versions are likely re-created crawls. If they had the ability to do this for the SE it be easy as cake to simply alter the text to remove the Episode listing to re-created the original crawl. A true judgement is really dependant on seeing the whole dvd crawl when it comes out. Would be interesting to compare the original 1977 35mm tilt-down to Tattoine with the 1980's and 1990's home video alternate-starfields and the 1997/2004 DVD.

Here is the clincher regarding the 2006 DVD though: the original crawl is already available. It was seen on EOD. If the DVD crawl is the original it would certainly be the EOD footage, which it clearly is not. Therefore it must be some kind of re-creation. My guess is that they are using the same source elements that were used for the 1997 SE, which is the original starfield backdrop but with newly created text. Thus, this is really like an OOT-SE and not really the OOT.
Post
#230750
Topic
Lucas' real reasons for changing the OT
Time
Yup, by the time the SE came out in theaters he was already about to film TPM. So if the SE bombed its not like he would or could have backed out of the prequels. The SE was put into motion around the same time as the prequels, roughly 1993. This in itself however was likely a result of the mega-success of the Star Wars rennaisance which began in 1991 after Heir to the Emperor.
Post
#230172
Topic
first viewing of the 2006 OOT dvds
Time
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: THX
On the "issue" of the "interlacing artifacts", it is possible to create this effect simply by not setting up your DVD player correctly for its display. I sincerely doubt that the DVDs will contain constant visible "combing."


Still, if the video source is interlaced, would that not result in less image data being preserved on the DVD master than with a progressive source?


If I'm not mistaken, the lower frame rate of progressive means more disk space and thus higher bit rate, so yes.
Post
#230171
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Boris, doctoring the colour of my caps and saying "your caps look the same to me" is stupid.

FACT: The colouring matches the 1993 video

FACT: The crawl depicted in the trailer never existed

FACT: The EOD footage has a different starfield

So will the crawl for sure be a re-created one? Maybe not. But based on all the information available, which is actually quite a bit of info, the best conclusion drawable is that its merely a digitally re-created one, likely done using the same technique made for the prequels. Ordinarily i wouldn't mind this--i mean having the original crawl in itself is a bonus--but selling this as "the original theatrical version" is flagarant false advertising.
Post
#229886
Topic
Ok, straight up... is this the last time we will ever see the OOT?
Time
The OOT will be available in a proper form some day--this I have absolute and complete confidence in. The only question is when. Next year with the inevitable 30th anniversary boxset? Maybe, but i wouldn't be surprised if its not. Maybe 2008 in an even more expensive set after we have already bought the 30th anniversary one? Maybe. Maybe it won't be released until 2010 or 2012, after the live-action TV series is done and released and the Star Wars well has dried up. Its really impossible to say.
Post
#229720
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: zombie84
Boris, its not plain speculation--its based on evidence! Its based on video examples! LOL! What more do you want! The trailer for the dvd which is designed to sell the OOT's release contains a clip which says in a flaming blue banner "original crawl" and the crawl is clearly not the original crawl. How much more evidence do you need? Clearly the clip proves that it is not the original crawl--all that remains to be seen is if this clip was doctored for the trailer, and this is the only point that is speculatory.

It's only evidence because you choose to believe it is. Zion made a good point that they could have been deliberately speeding it up - shaving a couple of seconds here and a couple of seconds there in adverts does make a difference. The crawl looks completely identical to the one in empire of dreams (except for when the SW logo fades). There are so many other explanations available, and you've chosen to jump to conclusions and to believe just one of many reasonable explanations. And the one you've chosen to believe, I feel is much more far fetched then believing that the crawl is the original. So, how do you know the Empire of Dreams crawl is not photoshopped and is the original? Because of the ANH crawl on the 2004 DVD? The ANH crawl on the 2004 DVD was recreated, wasn't it? Surely you must have some better evidence.



Boris now you are just talking nonesense. The clip is not identical to EOD at all. The colour is different. The entire background is different. The black levels are different. The composition of the logo is different. Everything that could possibly be different within that frame is different.

We know the EOD is not photoshopped because it is taken from the 35mm originals from the LFL archives. The 2004 SE DVD crawl was not re-created, as far as we know, it remains as it was since 1981.

I am simply looking at the facts and drawing a conclusion. It just happens to be one which you are not happy with. But sometimes the truth can be unpleasant. The only saving grace that can be said is that the crawl will be changed come the actual release but i see no reason or indication that this is so.
Post
#229703
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Originally posted by: boris
[ It just seems to me that saying:

The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!

When there is no real evidence to prove this is true is just plain speculation and general Lucas hate-mongering. That's my opinion, and if you don't like it then by all means believe that the original crawl on the SW OUT DVD is a simulation, and if you want to believe in elves and aliens as well and that there once was a real star wars and that Lucas is a big fat phoney then by all means you're welcome to.

I don't have to share them, and I think I have every right to point out just how ridiculous they are. Honestly, they simulated the original crawl? Give me a break!


Boris, its not plain speculation--its based on evidence! Its based on video examples! LOL! What more do you want! The trailer for the dvd which is designed to sell the OOT's release contains a clip which says in a flaming blue banner "original crawl" and the crawl is clearly not the original crawl. How much more evidence do you need? Clearly the clip proves that it is not the original crawl--all that remains to be seen is if this clip was doctored for the trailer, and this is the only point that is speculatory.
Post
#229569
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Haha nice!

I do hope this turns out to be as Zion has speculated that it is merely an edit for the trailer. I really think not--after all, Lucasfilm knew this would scrutinized so why edit something in the sales trailer that is being sold as "unedited and unaltered"?? This is why i think it actually is the real McCoy.

Best case scenario: it is a re-created "simulated original crawl" as per Zion's speculation. In this case the colouring and starfield are still inaccurate, and it is also likely that they just copied the text from the 1993 video, meaning it will have the 1981 formating. Thus, even if it is 100% accurate it is still not the "original unaltered theatrical version."

I stand by my assessment though that they simply screwed up the crawl, like they have screwed up everything else.

Post
#229509
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Zion you are proposing that the two or three second gap between where the logo fades to nothingness and the text first appears is eliminated by an invisible dissolve between the two to show the immediate difference (i.e. no "Episode IV"). While this is hypothetically possible, it is rendered improbable by a very important fact:

The clip is already edited for duration to show the logo and text. They do this with a speed ramp. The logo whips on by and then the text soars on up and finally at the last second the clip slows to normal speed to make it clear that it is the text sans Episode IV. Why would they do a fake dissolve if they already did a speed-ramp? If they wanted to get rid of that extra two seconds as you seem to imply they merely had to extend the speed ramp for about 0.0025 seconds. Like four frames of video.

Therefore the idea of them edited the clip to dissolve between the logo and text to show that it is sans Episode IV is illogical--they already edited it with a speed-ramp.
Post
#229456
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Okay--new discovery!

My theory is revised--these appear to not be a photoshopped version of the ANH crawl, but a totally re-created version!

First, let me explain. I said before that the coloring of the text and placement of the logo was a dead giveaway--but now i realise it wasn't a giveaway that it was an altered 1981 crawl. It was a giveaway that it is a totally new re-created crawl. Look at these screenshots. The first is the real 1977 crawl.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i139/zombie__84/1969b977.jpg

Okay, next is the DVD crawl from the trailer:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i139/zombie__84/crappydvdcrawl.jpg

Right, same as before--the main logo should have dissapeared by now but its there clear as day, indicating these are not the same crawls (which is re-inforced by the differences in starfields and text colouring).

But here is where it gets interesting--the 1981 had the logo (pretty much) dissapear before the text came as well, just like the 1977 crawl did. Here is the 1981 crawl from the SE dvd:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i139/zombie__84/ANHSE1.jpg

You can see in the above that the logo is just barely there--this cap is taken mid-fade. By the time "A New Hope" comes up it is long gone:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i139/zombie__84/ANHSE2.jpg

See, logo is gone.

So then what is the deal with the DVD crawl? Its not the 1977 crawl but it can't be the 1981 crawl with the episode info erased--this would leave a huge dead space as well. The only way for the crawl shown on the trailer to be possible is if they erased the episode info, rotoscoped each and every letter and word and moved the whole thing closer together. This would be quite the effort to do, and totally unnecessary.

I realise now the reason that the 1977 Empire of Dreams footage was not used was because the difference in quality and starfields would be too troublesome to blend into the 1993 Laserdisk footage. But rotoscoping the 1993 crawl would be even more difficult.

But i figured it out. How do you think the crawls were created for the Prequels? Denis Muren himself did it on his dinky home laptop. Its that easy.
The process goes like this:
-take still of starfield backdrop.
-type text into pre-formatted parameters
-composite

Done. They already figured out what the font is. They already figured out the speed, angle of view and duration. All you have to do is type in the text.

And this, i am positive is what was done. There is blank frame of just the starfield that can be used to make a backdrop. Then they filled in the text. So why is the logo almost overlapping the text? Because they had the speed programmed for the prequel/SE format of crawl, which includes the episode infor--thus, they had to reprogram the speed and compositing of the text. And they were imperfect in their measurements--perhaps they had no reference and just did it by eye, sort of "yeah that looks about right--star wars logo comes in then the text does."


So there it is. If they got the position and speed wrong its probably safe to say that they likely got the original formatting of the text wrong as well and just copied what was on the 1993 laserdisk (ie the 1981 formatting).
Post
#229441
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Time
Originally posted by: SKot
Originally posted by: zombie84
Boris, if they were going to use the actual 1977 crawl ie from the actual archives, then they would obviously use the EOD footage since it is already transfered and they obviously do not want to spend any money on this release. The trailer clip is clearly not the same as the EOD one.
The thing to remember is this: it doesn't matter one iota what they show in the preview trailer. Nowhere does it say that the footage contained in that trailer is the same exact footage that is going to be in the September DVDs. Who's to say they didn't make a custom edit showing the text crawl as the SW logo is still on-screen, to compress more into less time for the trailer? And who's to say they didn't fabricate a text crawl just for this promotional trailer?

Boris is right about one thing, at least. We can't jump to any conclusions until we've seen the actual DVDs ourselves.

--SKot


True it may not be the final version but the trailer seems to indicate "THIS IS THE NEW/OLD CRAWL!"

I don't see any evidence that there is some invisible, custom edit (even more illogical since the point of showing the footage is to prove that its the original unaltered version) and to me this just seems like wishful thinking.

Not saying its impossible, but right now i will say its improbable.
Post
#229286
Topic
Those "Takes You Out Of The Moment" Moments...
Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
AOTC: Anakin’s fall on Coruscant. He would need to use the force not only to slow his fall, but also to accelerate to about 195MPH in order to grab the sky-car without tearing his arms off.


Hehe, yeah, that one gets me too. In addition to that, though, is when Anakin loses his lightsaber. Obi-Wan catches it, puts it in the passenger seat... and it just sits there without any kind of motion at all.


I kinda liked that moment for that very reason; so casual, even though it is completely absurd--i found it, dare i say, clever.

The skydiving though is horrible. I just saw that the other day and had completely forgotten about it and was instantly transported back to opening day in 2002--"WTF??! Oh give me a goodamn break that is just stupid." I accept Kenobi falling 100 feet in TPM and bouncing back up equally as high, i can even go with Obi Wan diving out the window to catch the droid but Anakin skydiving through traffic and catching the car was just too unrealistic, even for a film with aliens who levitate people in the air.
Post
#229225
Topic
death of star wars
Time
A restoration depends on the quality of the source. For any of the release print copies that private collectors have i imagine it would be a bit pricey since these would be very "used" and degraded. This is moot though. Lucasfilm has many copies of the OOT, in both release print and IP form. There is no need to restore it. Lucas himself even has seperation masters from the dye-transfer technicolour prints and they are in immaculate condition. These simply could be scanned and digitally composited to create a digital copy of the OOT that looks about as pristine and high quality as the day it premiered. The cost of doing this woud probably be in the ballpark of about $100,000 or so, perhaps less, which really is absolute peanuts when you consider the importance of such an undertaking (and the millions in revenue brought in from the sales).
Post
#229212
Topic
If George did release a high quality OOT DVD, what is the worst that would happen?
Time
Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
Originally posted by: zombie84
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
For me, the worst that could happen is that it would only be included as part of some $300 boxset that I don't need or want.


No doubt this is what will one day happen.

Casual fans would not pay $100 or $200 just for the OOT--but they would pay $30 for a half-assed laserdisk transfer! The die hards get roped into buying this as well, thinking it may be the last time the films are avaialble, all the while having their appetite for a proper release even more whetted. Once the casual fans have had as much money pumped out of them as can be, and the die hards as well, it is time to really stick it to the die hards by releasing that $199 mega box with exclusive copies of a restored OOT, the rest of the box being 15 disks of PT and SE copies and supplements, with a giant Jar Jar head for a box.


Yes that is exactly what George will do. I wonder if he’ll have infomercials for it like they did for the Ultimate Matrix Collection? The set will include the following:

Star Wars (1977)
Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Return of the Jedi (1983)
Star Wars SE (1997)
Empire Strikes Back SE (1997)
Return of the Jedi SE (1997)
Star Wars SSE (2004)
Empire Strikes Back SSE (2004)
Return of the Jedi SSE (2004)
Star Wars Archival SSE Happy time +++ (2007)
Empire Strikes Back Archival SSE Happy time +++ (2007)
Return of the Jedi Archival SSE Happy time +++ (2007)
Star Wars Holiday Special 30th Anniversary “Original Vision” Edition (2008)
Clone Wars Vol. I (2003)
Clone Wars Vol. II (2003)
The Phantom Menace (1999)
Attack of the Clones (2002)
Revenge of the Sith (2005)
The Phantom Menace SE (2007)
Attack of the Clones SE (2007)
Revenge of the Sith SE (2007)
The Phantom Menace SSE “The version George really wanted to make, but his x was reminding him that he sucks” Edition featuring Darth Maul and his double antennae Walkie-Talkie (2009)
Attack of the Clones SSE “My morals keep changing and so my movies must as well” Edition featuring Nerf Walkie-Talkie-Sabers (2009)
Revenge of the Sith SSE “The version that solves the Sifo-Diyas mystery harped on by George” now with even more stupid Palps voice changes and crackling (2009)
The Full First and only Season of the Star Wars Live Action TV Show (2008)
Collectors Jar Jar Dildo
Altar to Baal (The Artist formerly known as George Lucas) Special Collectors Edition
The Definitive Baal Autobiography “How Art should be modified to suit the tastes of changing viewers” or “Nothing is timeless” by Baal (The Artist formerly known as George Lucas)
Gusher Edition Knee Pads for sucking Baal (George) Cock.

All for the low low price of……..One Million Dollars…er..um..I mean One Hundred Billion Dollars.


Best post ever.

Don't forget Droid and Ewoks cartoons as well as the two Ewok movies in both original and special editions, plus the Holiday Special now updated to Lucas' vision.
Post
#229210
Topic
first viewing of the 2006 OOT dvds
Time
That wasn't a flame thrown your way Mike just so there is no misunderstandings between us. Was just saying that the situation isn't as convoluted as LFL representatives make it seem.

Yeah--Sansweet is just repeating what the higher ups are telling him to tell us. Its a very unfortunate position for him to be in and I'm sure he is as dissapointed as many of us for this release.

As for 2005--the films were re-packaged in a three disk box set without the bonus disk at a reduced price and with different box art (depicting the original poster art--perhaps to sell it as the OOT?? I know at least one person who bought it thinking this!). The 2005 box set failed massively because it was pointless.
Post
#229196
Topic
first viewing of the 2006 OOT dvds
Time
Its not that hard Mike. They just want another excuse to sell you the SE. But people won't buy it without a very good reason to (as evidenced by the failure of the 2005 release) so they are slapping on a laserdisk transfer and marketing that. Sansweet himself admitted the initial purpose was to re-sell the SE films individually. That is why the OOT is bonus material--its the bonus on the SE films to get you to buy it. The marketing focusing ONLY on the OOT release is obviously because that is the sets selling point. A proper release of the OOT will come out eventually but if they say this is the last time it will be available then we buy it now instead of waiting.