yotsuya

In my quest to find all the different versions of the SW saga, I found that some are only in 25 fps PAL or 30 fps NTSC. NTSC preserves the running time but not the original 24 fps. PAL preserves the frames. I've tried a few things with no luck. I just need to know how to convert it and keep all the frames. Also how to do it without too many conversion steps.

benduwan said:

will the deleted scenes from the OT cleaned?

will your versions only have english language?

 I don't have the skill to clean them myself (other than color correcting), so it depends on what I can find. I have a cleaned up version of the pre-Blu-Ray version of the A New Hope deleted scenes, but the quality is inferior.

I have been planning two different edits of the saga for a while. I set out on a quest for the materials to do them recently and I think I have now what I need. I, of course, own every release (pan and scan VHS, Widescreen VHS, Faces LD, SE LD, TPM Japanese LD, 2004 DVD, 2006 DVD, PT DVD’s, and the Blu-ray box), but getting good copies to work from is not so easy. But I now have Harmy’s Despecialized editions in 720, the Blu-ray rips in 720, and A New Hope 97 SE in 720, plus everything in DVD quality.

Edit One - My cut of the films

Ep 1 - Basically the Theatrical cut with CG Yoda (that puppet gives me the creeps).

Ep 2 - Remove arguing between Obi-wan and Anakin. Remove C3PO from the Droid Factory and Battle of Geonosis.

Ep 3 - Theatrical cut (my sources tell me the HD broadcast is one edit from that).

Ep 4 - Definitely the hardest. This film was done on a budget and the negative has faded and it was the most altered in the SE. My edit removes a lot of SE content, fixed a lot of things that should have been fixed, and restores deleted scenes included in the SE.
Sound - Update 93 audio to include all mono changes (except “Blast it Biggs”). Include SE audio from 97 version where SE shots are included. Replace 50’s Fox Fanfare with TESB.
Video - Color correct or swap out with better source. Main source is Oteedee’s D+77, with inserts from his companion D+ OTD, then 2011 BR, 4K 97 IV, 4K77.
Video Changes

1. Change Fox Logo, Lucasfilm Logo and A Long time Ago to 80’s versions.
2. Correct angle of crawl. Correct lasers in flyover.
3. Add blue to interior of escape pod to match first and last shots and the reflection on C-3PO
4. Fix retraining bolt position
5. Adjust Deback shot so it is 77 cut, but with 97 FX.
6. Fix 2 shots in Droid sale to remove R5 and bare armed tech guy.
7. Fix double R2 after Jabba scene by zooming in shot so it is less obvious.
8. Add matte of Falcon dis and far side of hanger.
9. Remove phantom Ben when he is supposed to be seated (Adywan).
10. Fix 77 Alderaan shot.
11. Fox 3 R2 cutaways with correct background (Adywan).
12. Fix 3 Falcon in hanger shots where the walls don’t match the other shots.
    Add in one Mos Eisley shot (after begin stopped by Storm Troopers. Add Jabba Scene and change Greedo subtitles to match earlier draft of script as much as possible. Add in Biggs scene.
    (currently working on various touch ups and color correcting to film sources - otherwise most changes are done)

Ep 5 - Mostly the SE, but a few tweaks. Closer to original Wampa, Ian, but original Emperor Hologram dialog (except Young Skywalker replacing Luke Skywalker), remove SE windows that don’t line up with other shots or are just badly done. So SE, but continuity checked. Source is D+80 and D+OTD with other sources as needed.

Ep 6 - Mostly the Theatrical cut thanks to Oteedee’s D+83. But with some SE elements added. Added in the Dug. No enhanced Sarlac and no blinking Ewoks. But 97 SE Vicory celebration (no Naboo). If I can figure out how, morph Sebastian Shaw to Hayden Christensen.

Edit Two - Theatrical version with deleted scenes added (this will only be finished or finishable scenes). This will be only DVD quality due to the sources.

Ep 1 - longest pod race plus other deleted scenes from DVD and Blu-ray.

Ep 2 - finished and includable deleted scenes from DVD and Blu-ray.

Ep 3 - finished and includable deleted scenes from DVD and Blu-ray.

Ep 4 - GOUt with all Luke and Biggs scenes included, Jabba from 97 SE, Jenny and Han, and probably some of the reordered scenes put back to their original order (a la Deleted Magic).

Ep 5 - GOUT with most deleted scenes included. There are couple that don’t fit continuity so they won’t be included.

Ep 6 - GOUT with Luke and Vader and sand storm and a few of the others.

I’ve done the Episode 2 edits just today to start things off. No idea how long it will take me but I’ll probably save most for spring. I might get my edits of the PT done sooner. The video edits should be a piece of cake, but the audio edits are going to be more extensive, especially if I want 5.1 mixes in the final product. The deleted scenes project will be just stereo.

Well, you have brought out more detail, but this really highlights the grain in the GOUT (not film grain, but video noise that looks like film grain). This process also didn't seem to fix the occasional jagged edges where the pixels show up. But very nice result all the same.

Why are you removing the tractor beam line? It is from the 1977 mono track which at the time was considered the definitive sound for the film (as in the soundtrack that Ben Burt spent the most time on and the one it won the Oscar for). While it was missing in the stereo soundtrack up into the 90's, it is not a later revision but one of the many attempts to make the stereo/surround soundtrack match the mono soundtrack. They still have never gotten Beru's voice correct. My ideal would be a full 5.1 sountrack the perfectly matches the mono soundtrack (minus the SE additions, the BD comes the closest - again, except for Beru). Thanks to some of the versions of Star Wars created by members of this group, my favorite way to watch it is the GOUT with the mono soundtrack - the way 90% of us who saw it in '77 experienced it.

I'm bummed that the website seems to be permanently down. But I really think that to avoid a total shutdown from legal action that the raw film scans needs to be shared as widely as possible. If it is everywhere, they can't stop it. I want to see their final product, but I also want to see some other interpretations based on this scan. It should replace the GOUT for all of us who love this film.

Those magenta tones drive me crazy. They are on a lot of the Lowry restored Bond films as well.

Some news would be nice. Anything. A project such as this should be shared early and often. Considering how the powers think of this effort, any setback causes great concern.

Good to hear. Progress is progress, no matter how slow.

It's been over a year since Focuspuller's last update. Anyone heard from him? Is this going anywhere?

There were 2 processes in distributing film. The first is chemically developed film. The second is printed film.

Chemical developed film uses the master negative (usually referred to as the o-neg) to create a limited number of interpositive prints. This is pretty much the last the stage that the production team/studio have any say in the matter. The negative is color timed to create the interpositives and then the distribution company uses the interpositives to create a set of internegatives that are used to create the final film prints. Other than color interpositives having a tint (which I believes aids with the whole chemical duplication process) they are the best source for correctly color timed images. There is no guarantee that any of the internegatives or the final prints aren't a bit off in color. If the o-neg still exists and is in good shape, it still needs the correct color timing. That data can be recorded but the interpositive can also be used to recover that information.

Technicolor is the best example of printed film. Originally they used 3 separate negatives, one for each color, but it can be derived from color film as well. Again, you have to start with the o-neg and create a color timed master. As this is a printing process, it requires a master for each color. These are called the separation masters. Using a chemical process, the masters are used to create the print masters. What it amounts to is that the process pits the film. The more color, the deeper the pit. In the printing process, the pit is filled with gel ink in cyan, magenta, and yellow, and transferred onto the final print. When the gel ink dries, it flattens out and leaves the final print smooth. It also creates some inherent alignment issues.

So no matter the movie, the best source is the o-neg properly timed and the next best source is an interpostive of the color separation master. In some cases, they have used part of the o-neg and part of the separation master, usually retrieving the cyan and magenta from the o-neg and the yellow from the separation master. They have a new all digital technicolor restoration process that aligns the separate colors and produces a truly outstanding picture that is clearer than any techincolor IB print ever was.

So whether it is a chemically developed print or a technicolor IB print, it is sufficiently removed enough from the work of the production team and is prone to enough errors in production that it doesn't represent the best source to retrieve a film from. For the DVD market and earlier, they often did use prints (cheaper and easier than going to the effort to do a restoration on the negative), but with the advent of HD and Blu-ray, the clarity called for calls for doing a proper job from the best source material available. In some cases we have what we have. Citizen Kane was restored from a print because the negative was lost, but in the case of most modern films, that will produce an inferior product. HD still isn't high enough quality that the majority of film making slight of hand is revealed.

Two things, that image is a poor representation of what the LP images look like and that image of C3PO in the desert isn't a good example. I was looking more at the images with skin tones and the white of the blockade runner.

I'm going to have to dig out the LP and Story LP and music book and see if I can get a scan that looks right (don't hold your breath, I have to find them first - could take years at the rate I work).

One thing to remember about all the VHS and LD sources, there was so such thing as a THX screen for home viewing. Transfers had to be made with the home video audience in mind. That audience had as many variation in color, tone, etc., as there were TVs in the world.

The only definitive color for how Star Wars looked in 1977 would be the 3 color separation timing masters if they still exist, or maybe an original interpositive. Outside of that, every print and transfer is going to be different. We can only guess which one is closest. The one great thing about a technicolor IB print is that it doesn't fade and the colors are very consistent, but it isn't the same as a regular film transfer. From the interviews about the color restoration for the 97 SE, the IB print was their guide for the colors. I have not trust that Lowry got even close when they did the digital transfer. They did the older Bond films as well and all the explosions have a pink tinge to them that aren't there in the older transfers. Because of that I find all the colors suspect in the official DVD and BR releases (except the GOUT which has other problems).


I think the best source for the original colors are the products that were made at the time that include stills from the films. Like this image of the LP. http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/9873/10845353_3.jpg?v=8CE040475E76D60

Without access to a definitive original source to base the color timing on, I think it is more a matter of preference than accuracy. I don't think any of the VHS or LD transfers (or the GOUT) really comes close to what it originally looked like on film.

the cleanup of Beru's lines is one of the things that has never been addressed. It is so obviously dubbed in the stereo mix, right down the the DVD and Blu-ray release, yet in the mono-mix it sounds so much more natural. I would love to have a 5.1 track with this fixed.

I think a few of the things we are seeing and complaining about are are just differences in how we've been seeing them for years on pre-dvd media and how they are supposed to be seen. We all know about all those garbage matt boxes, right? Well, when you darken the transfer those garbage matts should be less noticable. I think some of what we are seeing is that for years we have been watching this films from fairly poor transfers. TV, VHS, and LD don't have that high of an image and the TV's they were made for matched how they were scanned.

I think a lot of the issue is that these films were dark originally and we just aren't used to it. Also, I've been watching the special featured on the BRD and I've noticed a lot of variation in how the scenes from the films ended up transfered into the making of documentaries. I've noticed a lot of sabers with non-white cores and other oddities that were issues with the 2004 DVD's.

I'm not saying that a lot of these issues shouldn't have been dealt with, but that they are inherent to the films themselves. There is some fading damage (leading to magenta fiery glows when they should be very while), and some scenes have been over color corrected manually and there is a lot that needs to be fixed, but the crushed blacks and some of the other issues I think are part of the way we are used to seeing the films transferred compared to a more accurate transfer. ANH was color corrected to closely match the technicolor print. As none of us have seen that print and how the colors stand out, I don't think we can really judge.

I'm not saying the 2004/2011 versions are perfect, but I think they are closer to the theatrical presentation than the TV/VHS/LD versions were. One way to judge is to look at the period prints from the movie stills and look at how dark they were. They weren't as light as the TV/VHS/LD transfers.

It seems the answer is either money or time. For what we want, there has to be a way to get it done. We just need someone with the actual prints.

I just thought of an odd parallel, yet somewhat opposite, that Star Wars shares with Star Trek. We all know how we feel about Lucas around here. He is the driving creative force behind the Star Wars Saga, yet he did not do it alone and we all know that an relish in giving the others their due.

Star Trek fans are not quite the same. For one thing, Roddenberry never pissed them off quite like Lucas has pissed of his fans. ST fans praise Roddenberry as the creator of Star Trek. Well, the classic series has as much outside input as Star Wars did. They turned down the first pilot (as too cerebral... a complaint that can be leveled at the first feature film and the pilot of ST:TNG, both projects he helmed directly) and asked for changes. Those changes, plus the input of all the talented writers and actors and further interference from the network, is really what made Star Trek great. Yet to hear ST fans today, it was all Roddenberry. What BS.

That is what I love about the community here. Lucas isn't some god, he is just a man with an idea that has grown beyond him. I love hearing the detail about the creative process and especially how the efforts of one person, Marcia Lucas in this case, helped to make the first trilogy what it was. Films really are a team effort and that really needs to be acknowledged.

The bar stood to make a sizable profit on drinks and whatever else they serve. It was not a private showing it was public. And it was not for free just because no admission was being charged. This is a simple copyright issues that would be faced with pretty much anything they wanted to show and not get permission. Home video, be it VHS, LD, DVD, or BRD, has always had a disclaimer that it is for private home viewing and any public showing are prohibited. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that any public showing, much less a bar, would get in trouble for this. Lucas isn't the only one to enforce his copyright.

And I know a DJ and they have to have a license (very similar to radio) to play the music.

While a lot of people might get away with violating the public performance aspect of copyright, that doesn't mean it is legal, it just means they didn't get caught.

Now if this had been a private party and not at a bar, I might tend to agree with that Lucas would have gone past being reasonable, but this was a bar, a business, and they really shouldn't be surprised. Admission or no, they were going to make a profit from this.

All this over one page in the back?

There are 10 other pictures that you aren't even talking about. While I would agree the quality is lacking, the OT cast gets their due. Each film gets an iconic shot. ANH gets that same image (although a painted version). Plus the cover features the Lars Homestead with Anakin and Luke. The location is far more iconic of ANH than any of the PT.

Plus, the two covers for the two trilogies both feature OT characters; Vader and Yoda.

And you don't even mention the image of Anakin and Luke in the middle of the booklet. It reminds me very much of the early art for ANH (see the novel cover). I can't find an online image of that picture, but the rest I found here http://halcyonrealms.com/film/star-wars-the-complete-saga-blu-ray/

For the final OT films, I am so glad most of these were cut. They aren't like some film's deleted scenes (like the infamous 30 sec (or less) remark by Scotty in ST II that the kid who later dies is his nephew) that you question why they were ever cut. There is not much there that really moves the story forward. Luke's conversations at the homestead fill the same roll the Biggs scenes do in explaining his character. The sandstorm scene would have worked sans the blowing sand (good keepable dialog, but the sandstorm was too much), but for pacing it really wasn't needed.

Now from a fan edit perspective, these are gold. I've had an edit in mind that would include most of the ANH scenes. It would take some work to get what I have in mind, but not too much. And I'm sure that there are quite a few who are teeming with ideas already. Deleted Magic is now in need of a serious revision.

Thanks a bunch. I was looking for these about a month ago and couldn't find them anywhere. I really wish someone with the TB release would put them up (or better yet, the files for the original broadcast).

I want pretty much what the initial post listed, except that for the original theatrical versions I want one extra soundtrack and for ANH, I want the option of paying any soundtrack with the 77 opening crawl or the 81 opening crawl. The extra soundtrack would by the last mix done before the special edition... the one the 97 special edition was based on.

My ultimate ideal would be to have 1 disc for each film and have it programed to play it any way you want, including a version with the deleted scenes and alternate scenes. For ANH, that would include all 3 jabba scenes (human, cg 1 and cg 2). But unfortunately, cramming all that on one disc might degrade the picture quality too much.

And as a note on sources, the best source for the original trilogy original theatrical version would be the separation masters. As I understand it, they are color specific b&w negatives that preserve what the film looked like when it was new. Using them will produce a properly color timed original image which is far closer to what we want to see than the restored image from the color negative. For ANH, I don't know how many people have noticed this, but all the bright white colors have turned pink. This isn't just a 2004 DVD transfer issue, it is on my 97 SE LD's as well. Going back to the separation masters would eliminate this and give us the best possible version of what these films looked like when they were new.

Also, while TPM was filmed on 35mm film, all the shots were scanned to create the movie digitally. So the best source of the prequel trilogy is not from film, but from the digital masters. I have no information on how TPM was scanned, but AOTC and ROTS were shot and edited at 1080p. They are 100% digital from start to finish. So what we are getting on Blu-Ray is about as good as these two films are every going to look.

The VistaVision cameas used by ILM used 35mm, but ran it sideways so that on frame was exposed over what would normally be 2. In effect it gives the resolution of 70mm without having to use the more expensive 70mm film stock. Everything was then composited onto 35mm film to create the master negative.

Very few movies have been shot on 70mm film. But distributing on 70mm eliminated the increased grain that distributing on 35mm creates.

skyjedi2005 said:

Obi Wan says he was trained by Yoda in Empire Strikes back.  We then learn this is not the case in the phantom menace, there is some Qui Gon guy who was never mentioned in the original trilogy but was his real master.

Obi Wan claims Anakin was a good friend who was slowly seduced by evil, nowhere shown in the prequels.

The so called great jedi purge is handled in a pathetic and anti climatic way in episode III, this is not Vader betraying the jedi and hunting them down.

Obi-wan treats Yoda as more of a master than Qui-gon (I get the impression that Obi-wan is with Qui-gon for field training before becoming a knight. Qui-gon is there and gone in a brief period while Yoda remains. Besides, with the creative history (with how the movies turned out) that Obi-wan had admitted to, why would this be any different.

Obi-wan and Anakin show a clear friendship and Anakin's fall is not abrupt, nearly every conversation with Palpatine is leading to his fall. Remember, Palpatine has had years of contact with Anakin that we don't see.

The Jedi Purge is not over when Episode III ends. Those were just the Jedi with clone troops. What about how Anakin went to the temple and slaughtered the Jedi there, even the young ones. How many other Jedi escaped the clones and need to be hunted down by Darth Vader (once the black armor goes on).

Oh my. There really is no comment fitting of how wrong that it. VHS, really?