yotsuya

720x480 is the digital format that works for either 4:3 or 16:9 images. Analog NTSC SD standard is 640x480. DVD's are downsized for analog SD TV's. 720x480 is the digital standard, but 640x480 is the old analog standard. There is also 704x480, which was used on some early DVD's, but I think it is defunct now. I think there were other formats, but 720x480 (or 720x576 for PAL/SECAM) has won out over just about everything else. I have been doing this long enough to remember when 720x480 didn't exist.

Harmy, I don't think they particularly cared about such a tiny data loss. The entire way they released it shows a complete lack of caring for quality. NTSC native resolution is 640x480, so they resized it anyway.

I suspect someone in the PAL production chain put a little more effort into it. Both versions are encoded at 720 pixels wide, so technically the PAL version has a chance to have more data preserved, or different data, with the pillarboxing removed. I am now curious so I intend to see what I can uncover about this. One question would be when this PAL master tape was created. Was it for the DVD or a decade earlier for the LD? From the color and quality, it is obvious that it is from the same transfer. They seem to share the same noise artifacts (which are not film grain).

I guess what I'm saying is that ANH doesn't look like it is from the same VT master. If it was, the letterboxing should be identical. I had avoided buying them because I had also heard they were identical, but if anything, I see a small bit of additional detail from the PAL version. Very small, but there. I also like that the sides of the image go all the way to the edge.

I just got my hands on the PAL DVD's of the saga. I sat down this morning to compare to be sure GOUT ANH ripped right and I found that they are not identical. I had heard they were from the same master tape, but the NTSC disc that I ripped has black bars on the left and right sides and the PAL disc does not. Also, the PAL letterbox crops the image slightly smaller top and bottom. Other than that, their image quality appears to be comparable.

So here is a question that comes to mind. What is the source? What has been done to get to the file that we are using super resolution on. Has it been cropped from the DVD rip? Is it the NTSC or PAL DVD? Has any noise reduction or smoothing been done to it, color correction, or other cleanup? In order for multiple people to render this and for it to come out matching, the source file should be the same.

g-force said:

My opinion:

1. Tech IB print has colors that differ from the prints on opening day. They are all there, with little fading, but that doesn't mean they are the same as what was show at most theaters.

2. The scan that Harmy worked from had colors that didn't quite match the Tech IB.

3. Harmy merely approximated the colors of the scans he had. Sometimes to varying degrees of success.

So, that's 3 levels of wrong.

I think you're better off looking at something like the JSC, but again, that was fucked with as well.

Anyone looking to get the "correct" colors is on a fools errand. They no longer exist. There is no reference that I know of that is representative of them. Their fire has gone out of the universe. :)

-G

 I would agree with you that none of those is a gold standard to try and match. That said, I think there is a way to come as close as possible with what we have available. The question is what to use as a guide and on that people will differ. Some will point to the how little technicolor fades. Some will point to the older editions made from original IP prints. I prefer to rely on the other movies, behind the scenes photos and film, to uncover an image of what the original colors were and try to mold the film to match.

That said, this thread is really about heightening the resolution of the 2006 DVD versions of the films (apparently taken from the DE LD master tapes). But that edition really had the best colors of all of them and is a good landmark to go by.

And just a small little rant... these films were made at academy standard 24 fps. I can understand working with PAL 25 fps or NTSC 30 fps, but it really messes with trying to line up different versions when you use a non-standard frame rate. I've found some strange ones. And when you render from one to the other, it can add or subtract frames. I was really pleased to find the JSC collection at 30i fps, which was easy to re-render as 24 fps. And PAL 25fps is a piece of cake to convert to 24 fps. But some are impossible because the actual scenes don't line up due to extra or missing frames. 24 fps is ether true 24 fps (for cinema) or 23.976 fps (for home video). 

Regardless of who did it, it is messed up and I've seen other things worked on by Lowry that share the same skewed color pallet.

But Lowry was right about one thing, the Tunesia scenes do have a lot of extra dirt. The Legacy restoration has found the same indications on the technicolor print - filled with mysterious yellow dots - that there is something up. I think many people underestimate just how insidious sand can be in the desert. It gets everywhere. And some of it is super fine.

I guess we'd better blame Lucasfilm for the piss poor job of scanning and color correcting. I have no issue with grain cleanup and reduction. I like clean images unless the grain was an artistic choice by the production team. And from what I've seen of the restorations being done by our own OriginalTrilogy.com members, 1080p is higher resolution than anyone outside of Hollywood has been able to see movies in. 4k starts to reveal things that the audience was never intended to see that shouldn't be left. Or 8k for 70 mm. I think they are great resolutions for scanning and preserving, but not for viewing. I already see too many flaws in Star Wars at 1080p.

After finding more sources, I think I am going to use the HD recording of the DVD version of eps 2 and 3. I want to be a close to theatrical as possible and that version of ep 2 is the Digital theatrical version (if anyone knows where to find a copy of the film theatrical version I love to get my hands on it). Ep 3 doesn't appear to have many changes from Theater to DVD to Bluray. I have a low quality copy of the theatrical version and the DVD has the audio, but the Bluray probably has the video, but I will check it against the DVD and theatrical to get the closest to the original theatrical version. I think I may add the Yoda deleted scene and I may tweak the birth scene, but I'll address that when I get to that one. So, for the PT, it will be the theatrical versions with CG yoda in Ep 1, no C-3PO in the droid factory in Ep 2, and add in Yoda in Ep 3. Pretty minor, but I don't have the complaints some do with the PT. I might have to address CG Jabba in Ep 1. He is too yellow and not red/orange enough. He needs to match ROTJ.

Well, that last draft did not turn out so well. Some of the scenes looked fantastic, but some were horrible. I did something to the blacks. I was using curves to help correct the color and that has its drawbacks. I think I am going to have to rethink my approach to this. In the mean time, I need some good reference material. Considering my goal, that is going to be scenes from eps 2, 3, 5, & 6. These have the least color issues. I put on the original (uncorrected or upscaled) GOUT TESB and was amazed at the colors. It hardly needs to be touched. There are relatively consistent orange jumpsuits, yellow helmet goggles, nice skin tones, bright scenes, dark scenes, a pretty consistent (especially after watching ANH like 40 times) R2-D2 and C-3PO. So I am going to focus on TESB and ROTJ first, then turn to ATOC and ROTS. The latter, coincidentally, have recreated sets found in ANH. It means I have to convert some PAL sources to 24 fps (well, almost 24, close enough when talking about it). Those 4 should give me plenty of example scenes to color match to.

I also need to figure out what Lowry did. I figured out how the negative faded. The green info faded about 50 percent and the blue about 25. Not enough to prevent that original negative from being used to crate nice IP's for the 97 SE. Rick McCallum and George Lucas have repeatedly told us that the original negative was recut and that the 97 SE used photographic restoration techniques. But then add another decade and what did Lowry have to scan? How did they scan it? How did they correct the colors. I am tempted to reverse engineer what they did to arrive at that horribly faded green image of Vader on the blockade runner. I can recreate it in photoshop using a color corrected screen cap, but not all those tools are available for video editing. I think I need to know how Lowry tried to fix the image to know how to actually fix it. And then there are Lucasfilm's changes. Plenty to keep me busy experimenting while I work on the other 4 movies. I think after ANH, I can tackle TPM, which suffers from similar, though less severe, color issues (that have nothing to do with fading and everything to do with editing choices).

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

 The improvement is a good one :) The skin tones, hair, and shirt all look just right.

Yup, he nailed it. Best version of that shot I have yet seen. Something to strive for in my own project.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think I may be closer. watching different un-color corrected versions is educational, as is watching other films. I watched Lawrence of Arabia and am partway through Zeffirelli's Hamlet. Accurate fleshtones are elusive, especially in something with as varied color timings as ANH. Still, I think I keep getting closer to my goal. I still have some tweaking to do, but I think I am even nearer than the last draft. This is definitely nearer to the scans/images of the technicolor, though that is not my goal, it is an awesome reference. I also just about have all my sources converted into files that I can bring in to Vegas so I can compare them. Before I finalize anything, I want to compare the JSC print, the GOUT print, the 97 SE EU broadcast, and the Lowry scan of the negative. I want to see if I can figure out what scenes may have had additional adjustments.

In any case, I have reduced the saturation and adjusted the colors, and changed some settings. Anything that causes any loss of image must be avoided and I had used something that had washed out some details. I think I am getting close.

 In my opinion that last one is too desaturated. I've discussed the basis for my regrade in my own thread, but here's how I would regrade this shot:

 What you have it indeed much better for that shot. If I was color correcting each scene, I would have something more along those lines, but I am trying to find a color correction plan that covers the entire film. When I up the saturation to make this shot look good, 50 others look bad. This is one of the key culprints-

I think I may be closer. watching different un-color corrected versions is educational, as is watching other films. I watched Lawrence of Arabia and am partway through Zeffirelli's Hamlet. Accurate fleshtones are elusive, especially in something with as varied color timings as ANH. Still, I think I keep getting closer to my goal. I still have some tweaking to do, but I think I am even nearer than the last draft. This is definitely nearer to the scans/images of the technicolor, though that is not my goal, it is an awesome reference. I also just about have all my sources converted into files that I can bring in to Vegas so I can compare them. Before I finalize anything, I want to compare the JSC print, the GOUT print, the 97 SE EU broadcast, and the Lowry scan of the negative. I want to see if I can figure out what scenes may have had additional adjustments.

In any case, I have reduced the saturation and adjusted the colors, and changed some settings. Anything that causes any loss of image must be avoided and I had used something that had washed out some details. I think I am getting close.

I've known that Lucasfilm messed up since the DVD came out. In the sand dune scenes with C-3PO, there are artifacts that indicate that he was adjusted separately from the background. Badly too. There some faint indications in several of the shots, but in the closeup with the skeleton behind him, the sand under his arms is green. It is really obvious when he raises his arms and you see the green sand next to the tan sand. Not a lot of people notice that. I even had to point it out to Harmy when he didn't fix that in DE 1.0. He has fixed it in 2.5 and I lifted those to shots from DE 2.5 to fix the bluray. Lucasfilm wasn't so heavy handed elsewhere, but I suspect that they messed with other scenes. I just haven't identified which ones.

The blue splotches are data loss. I'll have to patch them. They are in the Bluray and the DVD, but not in the 97 SE or the GOUT Lowry again. I really don't know what was wrong with them. They seem incapable of realigning faded color channels. It isn't that hard if you have a reference and for ANH we have the technicolor prints, an outstanding reference. They claim to have gone by that, but I don't think they shared it with Lowry and they then were working under a handicap. I've found that the red and blue channels are nicely in line, but the green one is all over the place. I can't even fully correct for how off it is, I can only get close and use other tools to make it look good. The magenta tone to the explosions and the blue artifacts in the dark areas, not to mention the lobster skintones, are all the result of the green channel being misaligned. There are may ways to correct for it, but unless you can track down what the core problem is, there will always be something wrong. Blown out whites and crushed blacks just make it harder to fix. Add to Lowry's mistakes the color grading choices by Lucasfilm and you get a really messed up movie.

See, I think that for that shot, something in the middle would look best. But that shot, other than being frequently compared with various corrections, is a very minor scene in the film. But it could be an indicator that I have some more work to do. I still consider it a draft. Very close and watchable, but still a draft. I think I have this very light scene too washed out. I'll take a look and see if I can fix it a bit without wrecking the rest. I keep getting closer, but not quite there yet. I have some mystery blue splotches that I'd like to make go away as well bit they have proven hard to address and may indicate data loss in the bluray.

poita said:

How are you aligning multiple sources?

 I'm using Sony Vegas and doing it by eye. not the most accurate probably, but my goal is to fix issues. With the bluray it is the lightest and darkest parts of the image in a few scenes. With the GOUT it is to cut the DNR of the 2006 DVD with the JSC LD. I'm debating the exact process for the GOUT, but for the bluray corrections it has been pretty easy so far.

Well, what I am aiming for is a global color correction for the Bluray and for whatever GOUT source I end up with. I want them to match overall. The things I am aiming for are skin tone, C-3PO, R2-D2, Darth Vader, the Blockade Runner interiors, the Death Star interiors. Leia is my typical target for skintone. Carrie Fisher has pale skin with some blush and when you have the tone right, her skin should look peachish and you should be able to see the blush without it being overly obvious. Considering the movie, in all four scans that I am referencing of it, is not properly timed from scene scene, you have to decide which scenes should be matched. I'm going for the majority. So I have gotten rid of the overly red flesh tones, but in the occasional shot the people are still a bit too red and in a few shots (mostly Tarkin) they are too pale.

My plan is to create my own despecialized version (hoping one of the newer resolution enhancers works well enough and easy enough) and individually color correct the scenes that I replace to match that scene. I have already done it to two scenes. C-3PO on the sand dunes in front of the skeleton has a green splotch under his arms that Harmy got rid of, but I had to match his color correction to what I am doing. Then I recolored the added Biggs scene because it was glaringly off. and I'm doing this on different layers so I have the entire film corrected and then what I change on top of that I can turn on or off as I like.

It is all a set of compromises. I want the films as they were shown, which at this stage is pretty much a guess. Only an original unfaded interpositive would give us the real colors as they were. The technicolor is the closest we can get, but it seems to come out too green unless you go in and color correct ever scene separately. Not a level of work I want to go to. I want to fix it so I can live with it.

I've managed to get rid of most of the green tinge that I found inescapable in the TR47 color correction. Part of that is that the BR is just from a better source and has a lot more information. It just needs to be moved around to reveal it. There isn't much to be done, other than overlay a replacement via matting from a scan that preserves that image information, with the blacks and whites. That information just is no on the bluray. It is found in the other copies so it is not completely lost. Just takes a lot of work to put back.

I had a chance to watch the full version of my 3rd draft this morning and the results look good. A few tweaks left I think, but not much that most people would notice. Here are the same shots as above, but this time from the my color corrected bluray.

I should point out that the last image features a sky overlaid with a 30% transparent sky from the GOUT. For the final version I am going to use the sky from the EU 97 SE broadcast. I'm fixing it because it is a scanning error as opposed to a creative edit. I'm fixing several of those as I go.

I'm still working on it. I did a second draft and had to change my approach but I ended up with much better results. I'm still trying to work out some things I don't like. I'll post some images soon. I have all the bright scenes to my liking, I just need to get the dark scenes there without ruining the light scenes.

I have come to the conclusion that doing a global color correction to the JSC version of ANH is hopeless. I think it comes from a different color timed print. Since I have to align it and the GOUT anyway for my restoration project, I'll just do a scene by scene match as I go. That is a lot of work, but I can't do without it. It will mostly cancel out the DNR in the GOUT and should yield a superior master.

In the meantime, I suppose I should finish my color correction draft of the bluray.

jedimasterobiwan said:

yotsuya said:

And one of the original image before I corrected it.

 are you making an hd version of you fanedit?

I'm doing a bunch of versions, mostly for me. Like this one is getting a DVD on my shelf to preserve this version. But this is just the first step. I want to create three versions that I might release. I'm definitely going to document and publish all the settings I used to get the results so anyone else can do it themselves (if they are using Sony Vegas Pro it should be easy, and it should be interpretable to other software). I want the GOUT using the best of the what we have (a mix of the 2006 GOUT and the JSC LD capture), a color corrected (among other fixes that I have discovered it needs) Bluray with 5.1 audio, and my own edit. My edit will be partially despecialized and have a number of fixes. It probably will be 720p, but maybe better depending on what I can do with the GOUT.

Right now the things (other than overall color correction) that the Bluray needs are fixes to some blown out highlights (the sky in the burning homestead scene) and restored X-wing and Y-wing explosions in the Death Star battle. I had thought they crushed explosions were from the SE, but I found a copy of the SE (probably used for the LD's and aired in Europe before the DVD's came out) that shows that it was not an SE feature but is part of the poor restoration job. Also, the Imperial and Rebel graphics of the Death Star approaching Yavin are in pathetic shape. The Imperial graphic screen border is crushed to dark blue and the Rebel screen border is blow out to a bluish gray instead of the original very dark tones. And I probably will include a special feature so you can watch it with the stupid rock removed from in front of R2. On the disk I burn for myself that will be the only option, but as I am trying to restore what this should have looked like if it had been handled properly, I can't really leave the rock out, as much as I want to.

DrDre said:

Colors look very good! They're very balanced and seem authentic. 

 Thanks. Getting the black levels I wanted was troublesome. I want the final product to not have the garbage mattes but still have the dark grays. This probably isn't a good version for determining the final settings of my final project, but it makes a good guide to match the other versions to.

And one of the original image before I corrected it.