yotsuya

I have the US Blu-ray and it has burned alien subtitles (there in English and French - didn’t check Spanish but I assume it is the same). Anyone know of a regional version without burned in subtitles?

Also, I think the time code on the deleted scenes can be patched. I just wonder if there is a point to some because they aren’t complete and don’t fit. About half of them might. Plus I noticed a big gaff withe the Starkiller weapon as the rebels approach… there is no beam being sucked in. Oops.

TV’s Frink said:

Wait, so your list wasn’t an April Fools joke?

No, it was no joke.

I know I am in a minority around here, but to me the PT are pretty good. They could have been much better and some the the issues between the PT and OT could have been worked out if Lucas had spent some more time developing the PT back in the 80’s when he was working on the OT. Leia’s mother living in hiding for 2 years really doesn’t make much sense and it wouldn’t have given Leia any additional memories of her. She would have had to live until Luke and Leia were about 3 or 4 for any sense of her to really remain (just find someone who lost a parent at 2 and see if they have any recollections at all - it isn’t normal). Lucas biggest gaff was Obi-wan’s explanation of Vader/Anakin in ANH and how that so conflicted with the Luke/Vader connection. From the name and the lightsaber design you can tell that is what Lucas was thinking (the Vader and Anakin sabers are so similar and Darth Vader means Dark Father in Dutch) and a brilliant bit of acting by Alec Guinness gives the impression that there is more the story than what he said in his hut, but it still is a stumbling block in the story that most of us have just accepted. The other seeming story inconsistencies between the OT and PT are really no worse than that.

And as for the acting in the PT. Jake and Hayden get a bad wrap, but I think they were acting at GL’s direction in how they delivered their lines. If you say their lines like Darth Vader their line delivery amazingly matches James Earl Jones delivery, but without that voice he comes off as immature and I think that was the point. I don’t think some of these things were accidents. GL seemed to have a very specific story and way of telling it in mind with the PT and I see many similarities to more classic Hollywood (even down to the very art deco art design) than to the 50’s and 60’s movies that inspired the OT. Even down to how the love story played out between Anakin and Padme.

I think it all comes down to our individual perspectives. I really don’t blame anyone for hating the PT. They really could have been much better but I don’t think that was the story GL wanted to tell. I think I see what he did and intended and from my perspective that makes the PT pretty enjoyable to watch. To me it is Star Wars and it is much better than most movies already. Nowhere near as good as the OT or the OT SE, but those are incredible movies and it is hard to recreate that magic again. I think that Abrams came close, but missed on several levels. He nailed the art direction and characters and casting, but the story has a limp and never quite captures that magic. His way of telling stories I think is at fault because Lost, Star Trek, and Star Trek Into Darkness all share the same faults as The Force Awakens. Though TFA shows fewer faults than those others they are similar.

John Doom said:

…Let’s see:
-way less reused plot events. Why not a quest to find a Force-related relic in ep.VIII?

Yes, please

-Rey not related to any OT character;

I see this as up in the air. Her being a Skywalker would be consistent with Lucas’s origial vision of three generations of Skywalkers, but I don’t see that as a requirement.

-no more teal & orange/magenta and high contrasts, just simpler well-crafted gradings chosen to match the scene;

Just one of the reasons why I am going to make my own color regrade version.

-Less and less Chewie and Luke, so we can focus exclusively on the new cast;

Chewie is a good sidekick and he and Rey work well together. Luke should have the Ben/Yoda role from the OT and the Yoda role from the PT. He should be there, we should get to see what he is capable of, but he needs to be a guest player not a main character.

DrDre said:

Here’s a set of adjusted regrades, based on the automated color correction of the Spanish LPP:

These look outstanding. The others still look too green.

See, I never found that he emphasized the special effects in the PT. I always found those three movies to be very fast paced - almost too much so. I can’t think of any scene that should be cut because it is just an FX fest. I really hate the droid factory scene in ATOC, but that is because it is cliched and badly done, not because it is full of effects. The shots are more dynamic than the OT, but I don’t find that there are too many effects. The OT are filled with matte paintings as well as other FX. I do find the story in the PT to be less compelling than that OT, but I think that has to do with how much of a downer the entire idea is. The Republic falls, the Jedi are hunted down, the good guys go into hiding. None of that really makes for great story telling. And he pulled the same shenanigans as he did in the OT by changing the story here and there as he went. And did he fix any of that in the SE? Not one bit. I have been aware of how much practical effects were used in the PT. My guess is as to why it looks more CG is that all the compositing was done digitally, lending a digital look to the finished product even though only some of it was digitally created. When you look at the sets that were pure CG, they tend to be in the background of some character driven scenes, such as the duel with Darth Maul in TPM.

I just want a good, well rounded arc for the trilogy. The OT gave us the fall of the empire and the return of the Jedi. The PT gave us the fall of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire. I want to see the full return of the the Jedi order, but one that is less focused on how to avoid any temptation of the dark side and works on not giving in to the temptation. I think the PT established that the the Jedi had become too focused on avoiding any hint of the dark side at any cost which is not reasonable. I think it was both the Jedi being one sided and Palpatine being so powerful that worked together to unbalance the force and I think Vader killing Palpatine was the first step in bringing balance, now they have to keep the balance. Yin and yang, the good and the bad together in balance. I think Luke achieved it in his battle with his father - he touched the dark side when Vader threatened to turn Leia, but he did not turn. Kylo Ren needs to relearn that it takes both sides to be truly powerful. The Dark Side is raw power and it is limiting and I think we need to see more of that. Easier, more seductive, as Yoda put it, but not more powerful.

I was very disappointed that we didn’t find out more on the state of the galaxy. I think that needs to be fixed. Was the New Republic just in one system or was that just the new capitol, replacing Coruscant. What happened to Coruscant? Is it still controlled by a faction of the old Empire? Has it fallen to ruin? How many systems do the Republic and First Order control?

What I want to see is a solid story that gets completed in two parts. It needs to bring the galaxy into balance and end with most of our major heroes alive and working toward the future. I hope we see the return of Ben Solo - a redemption that does not cost him his life - and a reunion with his mother. Luke needs to stay alive to be the teacher and mentor and Rey needs to be fall into the type of role that Qui-gon Jinn had at the start of Episode I - a true Jedi Knight, guardian of peace and justice. I don’t care how they go about it. I just want some great story telling. From his previous work, Rian Johnson seems to be more like Kirshner and I hope he can deliver a film to rival Empire in VIII. Then the saga needs a killer ending. Rian Johnson is a good writer and his work so far has not fallen on its face at the end like J.J. Abrams work usually does. It gives me hope that he can pull this off.

What I would really like to learn is that even though they pretty much ignored Lucas’s ideas in VII, I hope they return to his arc, at least in part, because he was pretty good at crafting those arcs.

TServo2049 said:

I always thought the Harrison Ford thing was a BS fan myth. It doesn’t sound like him to me at all, so it bugs the crap out of me that it keeps being repeated.

Have Lucasfilm ever confirmed? And I mean confirmed confirmed, not just repeated the myth themselves? I know that the “Orson Welles narrated the 1976 SW trailer” lasted until just a few years ago, when I think LFL were the ones to confirm it was actually Malachi Throne…

If you want to hear just how much Ford can sound just like this trailer, watch the scenes in Blade Runner where he is pretending to be an inspector while he talks to Zhora. I am 100% convinced it is Ford. The other trailer never sounded like Orson Wells to me, but he was doing a lot of voice over work, such as Buck Rogers, about that time so I can see where some untrained ears might think it was him. Definitely was Malachi Throne.

Ghibili said:

yotsuya said:

I’ve been debating where Ep 7 should fit in the scheme of things. In my numbering it marks the 10th or 11th film in the series so here is my order.

1. The Empire Strikes Back (SE)
2. The Empire Strikes Back (Original)
3. Star Wars/A New Hope (Original)
4. Return of the Jedi (Original)
5. Return of the Jedi (SE)
6. A New Hope (SE)
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Force Awakens

I do seriously think the changes (except the line change about R2 not tasting very good) to TESB improved it. I think the changes to ANH really damage the flow of the story. I like the addition of Jabba and Biggs, but the early changes just don’t fit and Greedo shooting at all just derails the story in the middle. ROTJ’s changes don’t add anything and Jedi Rocks and change to the ending detract enough to pull it down.

I like the Prequels, probably because I am a big fan of classic Hollywood movies and I see a real similarity in the type of story (including the comic relief characters). ROTS is the best of the PT. TPM has some good points and is fun. ATOC has issues and is a good middle chapter but not good on its own.

I have issues with TFA. On the surface it is very polished and the art direction and characters is perfect for the Star Wars universe, but the story fails in many ways. I don’t like the lack of explanation. Lucas managed to throw in a line or two that said volumes about what was going on and TFA lacks that brilliant exposition. In Lucas’s 6 films, everything that happens is very clear, but in TFA, things are vague and the story confusing. Knowing what Abrams is capable of in the TV realm makes it even more frustrating that the fantastic character development seen in Lost is mostly lacking. I think what they needed was a TESB type movie, not an ANH type movie. I’m hoping Rian Johnson can deliver something better. His work so far has been excellent and if he works on the same scope we could be looking forward to two awesome movies. I’m not expecting them to eclipse the OT, but eclipsing the PT would be nice.

So what about TPM(SE). Yes that exists.

Do those few changes really change the quality of the film? I think the extended pod race is inferior and I think the CG yoda is superior so it is pretty much a wash. Basically none of the changes to the PT have made them any better or worse. Same with the DVD and BR changes to the SE. In those cases the damage was done with the theatrical SE and the other minor changes don’t change my opinion in the slightest.

I’ve been debating where Ep 7 should fit in the scheme of things. In my numbering it marks the 10th or 11th film in the series so here is my order.

1. The Empire Strikes Back (SE)
2. The Empire Strikes Back (Original)
3. Star Wars/A New Hope (Original)
4. Return of the Jedi (Original)
5. Return of the Jedi (SE)
6. A New Hope (SE)
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Force Awakens

I do seriously think the changes (except the line change about R2 not tasting very good) to TESB improved it. I think the changes to ANH really damage the flow of the story. I like the addition of Jabba and Biggs, but the early changes just don’t fit and Greedo shooting at all just derails the story in the middle. ROTJ’s changes don’t add anything and Jedi Rocks and change to the ending detract enough to pull it down.

I like the Prequels, probably because I am a big fan of classic Hollywood movies and I see a real similarity in the type of story (including the comic relief characters). ROTS is the best of the PT. TPM has some good points and is fun. ATOC has issues and is a good middle chapter but not good on its own.

I have issues with TFA. On the surface it is very polished and the art direction and characters is perfect for the Star Wars universe, but the story fails in many ways. I don’t like the lack of explanation. Lucas managed to throw in a line or two that said volumes about what was going on and TFA lacks that brilliant exposition. In Lucas’s 6 films, everything that happens is very clear, but in TFA, things are vague and the story confusing. Knowing what Abrams is capable of in the TV realm makes it even more frustrating that the fantastic character development seen in Lost is mostly lacking. I think what they needed was a TESB type movie, not an ANH type movie. I’m hoping Rian Johnson can deliver something better. His work so far has been excellent and if he works on the same scope we could be looking forward to two awesome movies. I’m not expecting them to eclipse the OT, but eclipsing the PT would be nice.

imperialscum said:

CatBus said:

TV’s Frink said:

What the heck is film zero?

Star Wars. It doesn’t have an episode number. I guess (null) would have been better.

Now that is a whole new level of hipster.

Yes, I’ve often considered them 10 different movies (now 11). SW, GOUT eps 4, 5, 6, SE eps 4, 5, 6, eps 1, 2, 3, 7. I think if I were doing a full marathon that I would watch SW (no episode number) first (Probably a GOUT upscale, but maybe the DE, but definitely the mono soundtrack) then, depending on my mood, probably go with 1 (I love Liam Neesen so I refuse to skip this one), 2, 3, SE 4, SE 5, SE 6, 7. I think the editorial changes to Ep 4 really change the story in fundamental ways whereas I don’t think the edits to TESB or ROTJ really change the story much. Now if I wanted to do a complete marathon, I would star with Star Wars (again mono soundtrack) and then the GOUT eps 4-6 (with the 1981 crawl for ANH and probably the 1985 stereo track) before moving on to PT, SET, and ST.

I really like how most of those shots came out. Think this can be used on the the released SSE, or the TESB and ROTJ Grindhouse versions?

From a legal perspective, I don’t think any time is the right time; but from the perspective of version preservation, this seems like the perfect time to be gathering information on the theatrical presentation to compare to the DVD/BR/Digital HD release. But forum rules come first.

The colors look amazing, but the image is too dark overall.

The first step of a preservation is to determine what the original contained. Before we can discuss any specific preservation, we have to have the discussion about what, if anything is different.

towne32 said:

Anyway, unless anyone is volunteering to make a nice cleaned up HD crawl for this project there are probably better threads to discuss the nuances of each, as it ain’t getting reconstructed by me. 😃

Well, I’m doing it for my own project and I wouldn’t mind sharing. Considering the sources, I think 720p is about as good as it is going to get.

Screen caps are nice, but a video shows much more. I put this together of the 77 crawl, 81 crawl, 97 crawl and TESB crawl so you can see the difference.

https://vimeo.com/160390349
password: OT

The differences in the 1981 crawl. Star Wars fades out faster and is completely gone before Episode IV appears at the bottom of the screen. The starfield is unique. It is the same basic starfield as TESB, but only is about 80% the same. TESB shows more to the right, the 1981 crawl shows more to the left so you can’t just lift the TESB starfield and have it be accurate. After it pans down, the moons are in slightly different positions and the Star Destroyer has been better composited to remove the heavy black line you can see as it crosses the larger moon in the 1977 crawl. The 1997 crawl returns to some of the elements of the 1977 crawl, such as the starfield and the moon positions and Star Wars not fading out completely until after the crawl starts. The 1997 crawl kept the recomposited Star destroyer.

I’m working on restoring the 1981 crawl, but it is not easy or quick. There are only a handful of sources and they all have issues. The LD preservations do not have the resolution and the clip included with the Silver Screen Edition is badly crushed (which has eliminated most of the stars) and is missing the final frame of the flyover. I think I have what I need to restore it, but there are several issues such as restoring the stars and the blue glow from the engines. What has been the largest problem is stabilizing the SSE clip. I think I have that almost finished and it might go quicker after that.

Ah yes, that would make a difference. I haven’t examined TESB quite so closely yet.

DrDre said:

Regarding Peter Cushing’s skin tones, he wasn’t tanned, but he wasn’t pale as a sheet either:

It all depends on which photos you go by. The ones I’m using as reference are in general lighter than what you are doing. Most of the photos of Cushing I’ve looked at tend toward lighter tones. I do like the feel of what you are doing, but tye midtones seem too dark and saturated for my taste. Considering what you started from, it looks incredible. A difference in taste does not deminish my admiration for your work.

Darth Mallwalker said:

yotsuya said:

It also makes a difference you want to sync to the US or UK version of the GOUT - they differ by 3 frames. The UK one has 2 extra frames at the beginning and 1 extra at the end of reel 5.

The UK one has 0 extra frames at the beginning and 2 extra at the end of reel 5.

I beg to differ. The only additional frame that contains data shows the tech motioning with his hands to lower the green R2 unit into an X-wing and in the very last frame (missing in the US GOUT but not the Definitive Edition LD’s, the DVD or the BR) his hands curl fully. I’ve checked the Hyperspace and Rebellion sets as well as my own DVD’s It is only 1 frame. Now, the two frames at the beginning could be a ripping error, but I get it consistently so I’ve run with it.

Well, this conversation has been helpful. Lots of good info. I’m not liking Tarkin’s skin tones. Peter Cushing was pretty pale and never had much color (reference other sources such as his 2 Doctor Who movies) so I’m not in agreement with the coloring that gives him a nice rich skin tone. He and Leia should be fairly pale IMO.

That said, the conversation about the color of the Death Star Walls, coupled with using a separate level adjustment for each color channel has allowed me to fix my corrections (BR and GOUT) to show a slight blue to the walls and the green that was plaguing my previous BR attempt is gone. I’d post some screen caps but my system is busy trying to stabilize a video. I also haven’t finished tweaking it yet. I feel I am so close to what I think my final version will look like. I have to call what I’m doing to the BR a restoration because of all the gaffs I’ve found in the transfer that need to be fixed (and I’ve decided to remove that damned rock… can’t stand it). But I think I’ve found the single worst scene in the BR. When the Sand Crawler stops and the Jawas come in to select the droids to sell. R5-D4 is more pink than red. Any ideas on that shot? I thought I had it but I’m going to totally redo it.

Or get a script from someone who has already done the work. It is missing several frames between reels 2 & 3, 3 & 4, 4 & 5, and 5 & 6 plus several missing frames in the middle of reels 2 and 3. It also makes a difference you want to sync to the US or UK version of the GOUT - they differ by 3 frames. The UK one has 2 extra frames at the beginning and 1 extra at the end of reel 5. I think most everyone around here uses the US version.

You open the desired video in a video editor along with a copy of the GOUT. You scroll through and find the locations of missing frames and split the video (inserting either black frames or frames from a different source). Then you output the new video stream and it will sync to any of the desired GOUT synced audio streams.

The Blu-ray does not have accurate colors. That said, if it shows such a marked difference at a specific location, likely there was a difference in paint on the set. Determining what those colors were is problematic.

Also, it is more accurate to scan a source such as that book photo of the imperial uniforms on a flat bed scanner. Cameras tend to adjust white balance based on various factors and don’t lead to accurate colors in the photo. Even flatbed scanners have issues but they are generally more accurate and can be calibrated. Also it would depend on when the photo was taken and what condition the costume was stored under. Fabric colors and change as they age.