yotsuya

Fang Zei said:

I can’t even see the little white dot ships taking off in the TN1 version. What source was used for the early 77 version?

Also, wasn’t there a new soundmix done in '85 or was it just a port of one of the existing '77 mixes?

One of the keys in the timeline for me was the audio. Puggo Grand has the three endited shots, the alternate end credits, the 77 opening crawl, and it has a mono mixdown of the stereo audio. To me that cements that the 77 Dolby Stereo mix was done with the first batch of prints, is identical to the 70 mm mix (at least the L,R,C,Sr channels), and not revised agian until Ben Burt made his digital 1984 edit (which we typically call the 1985 mix because that is when it first appeared on home video). I haven’t gotten to it in checking the encoded surround for 1 or 2 channels, but the only noticable change to that mix was the added C-3PO tractor beam line that originally appeared in the mono mix. So for sound editing, I list 4 audio edits between 77 and 93 for A New Hope (because I consider the Dolby Stereo and the 4.2 70 mm version to be different formats of the same mix). The changes made to the 93 mix (which appeared on the Definitive Edition LD set, the Faces set, and the GOUT bonus discs) all originate with the mono mix and many changes made since then have brought the 1997, 2004, and 2011 versions closer to the mono-mix. They just have never changed any of the dialog takes to match the mono mix. So really a lot of the audio changes are just copying over edits made for the mono mix back in 1977.

FekLeyrTarg said:

I’ve just found a fan-edit of the scene, in which Kirk leaves the Enterprise through the airlock. The creator (pun-intended) made his own matte-painting of the Enterprise’s saucer section around the airlock-set.

https://youtu.be/BfhYjOa13Dw

This really looks awesome and I’d love to see it in some form in future fan-edits of TMP.
However, I think for any purist rebuild of the Special Longer Version like FanFiltration’s, I think it should stay in it’s original form with the soundstage intact.

Thanks. That saved me from having to do that very thing myself.

I have been very unhappy with all the edits of this one so far. The Director’s cut is better than the Theatrical version, but there is so much missing that doesn’t need to be that could make an extended version that is more polished than the original extended version. This was the one missing visual effect, but the sound needs to be worked on and there is a lot in that longer version that could be cut without missing anything. This and Dune have been on my mind for years, and this puts ST:TMP in the realm of possibility. Though not until I have my Star Wars project finished.

I’m not fine with how the spin looks, but the front and back look great. You should find something that isn’t triangular for the spine.

The only thing that the newest home video release of the saga got us is that the DVD has the 5.1 downmix of the 2011 audio mix. Other than that they are identical.

CatBus said:

yotsuya said:

As I said, I have not done a complete examination of the UK PAL versions of TESB and ROTJ, but the ANH UK PAL GOUT is not missing a single frame at the reel changes that is included in any other version nor is it missing any other frames. It matches the DE LD frame for frame and the DVD and Blu-ray at all the reel changes and in all the non SE sections. The US GOUT is not far off, but it is missing that one frame.

PAL GOUT (including UK) is missing a frame compared to NTSC GOUT in ROTJ (Ewoks jump a log reel change), but there’s the whole thread linked above talking about frames missing from both, which I can’t verify, but seems pretty exhaustive.

Again, missing is a misnomer IMO. A frame can’t be missing if it was never seen in any theatre in the first place. But some home releases contain more extra/bonus frames than others 😉

That seems a bit excessive to say that these trailing frames were never seen in any theater. We don’t know that. A careful projectionist might have spliced the films together perfectly for a big platter projector or they may have skillfully done it the old manual way and in both cases it is possible all these frames were seen in many theaters across the world. But as the films were pulled from their first run venues, and the leaders spliced back on, and then when they were prepared at the next venue, frames started to get cut off and vanish. What we are left with, both in the home video arena, and in the preserved 35 mm films, are not stellar, first run quality prints. The only version of the films that we know that were telecined or scanned from unreleased prints were the Definitive Edition LD set, the Faces LD set, and the GOUT. How and why frames are missing from one version and not another is a mystery, but when you also compare them to the 97 SE broadcast, the DVD and the Blu-ray, it is easy to put them back together.

I will have to compare the US GOUT, the UK GOUT, the DE preservations (I have two), the JSC, and the SWE, and maybe the French, Spanish, and German widescreen versions if I feel compelled. Althor1138 has made a lot of these available on MySpleen and I’ve downloaded them. I’ve already done most of these for ANH, but I will have to take a look at TESB and ROTJ. So far, what I’ve seen is that the UK GOUT aligns with the DVD and Blu-ray, but it has been a while so I will double check that.

Is this something shareable? How do you apply this to an entire video? It is the Techbot I’m interested in, or being able to feed it my own ideal correction. Or can you just do the whole blu-ray with the Techbot?

As I said, I have not done a complete examination of the UK PAL versions of TESB and ROTJ, but the ANH UK PAL GOUT is not missing a single frame at the reel changes that is included in any other version nor is it missing any other frames. It matches the DE LD frame for frame and the DVD and Blu-ray at all the reel changes and in all the non SE sections. The US GOUT is not far off, but it is missing that one frame.

towne32 said:

oohteedee said:

With regards to that missing reel 5 frame, is the gout audio (from despecialized) better synced with or without that frame?

Well, this is interesting, because this is the exact place where there is a discrepancy between SW Despecialized 2.5 and the NTSC GOUT. I’ve never seen it discussed as anything but an error, and I ‘corrected’ it for 2.7.

Is it possible that Harmy was simply using the PAL GOUT?

I have indeed noticed the extra frame when looking at the blu-ray, but I didn’t know this was anything other than an SE anomaly.

That frame can be found at the end of reel 5 in the JSC ANH. It is not an SE anomaly. Althor1138 included it in his GOUT synced mkv - that spot is missing a couple frames from the beginning of reel 6. It is also in the DE LD. I would have to plug in my LD player and fire up the old TV to check my Faces LD set, but I’m pretty sure it is in that one as well. So it being missing from the US GOUT is where the error lies, not it being in all the SE versions. The US GOUT for ANH is not the most complete and accurate version. I’m not sure, with all the LD projects that were floating around here before 2006, how the US GOUT disc became the standard to sync to. The DE LD set should have been the standard. My copy (I used to think it was the TR47 verison, but now I have no idea because whoever made it did the reverse pull down to get the 23.975 fps) isn’t the greatest quality, but it syncs up perfectly with the UK GOUT. Again, I haven’t checked TESB or ROTJ yet. That is coming as I try to create the audio tracks.

Since Depecialized is based on the Blu-ray, I can’t say. From what I’ve seen, one frame does not derail the audio sync.

LexX said:

Does anyone know if the GOUT is really complete or if there are frames it doesn’t have?

The US ANH GOUT is missing the last frame of reel 5. The UK GOUT appears to be complete. The reel changes are the only places that there is any variation due to missing frame between the LDs, GOUT, 97 SE broadcast, DVD, and Blu-ray. The UK GOUT, DVD and Blu-ray have exactly the same reel breaks. The 97 SE braodcast of ANH is complete, TESB is missing 1 frame, and ROTJ is missing 8 frames (when you compare the TB and G’kar versions to complile a complete version). Many of the LD versons are missing multiple frames at each reel break. The Definitive Edition and Faces should be complete since they are from the same source as the GOUT. I have no idea why the US GOUT is missing that one frame when it is there in so many other versions.

I have not yet checked to see if the US GOUT of TESB or ROTJ are missing any frames. It is on my list. But between the UK GOUT, the DVD, and the Blu-ray, there are no frames missing at any reel breaks. And for the 97 SE, it is only at 1 reel break in TESB and 4 in ROTJ where there are missing frames. I’ve even aligned the blu-ray to the GOUT and found them in complete agreement aside from the SE edits. For instance, during the ANH Death Star battle, all the SE shots that replace the originals run for the same number of frames. Same with the Cloud City shots with the windows added.

Skippy The Jedi Droid said:

yotsuya said:

I’m not comparing mine to any other TMP version. I created a color correction for the GOUT based on the Mike Verta techicolor sample scans and the ROTJ grindhouse. Then I color corrected the 97 SE trilogy to that and applied that, with some tweaking, to TMP and arrived at a very nice color correction. A bit yellow in some places, especially the pod race sequence, but overall it has very nice tones and the light sabers look right. Most importantly the colors match the photos I took at the costume exhibit. I’ll see if I can post some samples. The DVD is almost identical to the TB and ORF in cropping and color, I just had to make a small tweak to get it to match. The Blu-ray is very different.

I’d be interested in seeing your results. Could you include the shot with Padme and Panaka?

From the same scene…

I’m not comparing mine to any other TMP version. I created a color correction for the GOUT based on the Mike Verta techicolor sample scans and the ROTJ grindhouse. Then I color corrected the 97 SE trilogy to that and applied that, with some tweaking, to TMP and arrived at a very nice color correction. A bit yellow in some places, especially the pod race sequence, but overall it has very nice tones and the light sabers look right. Most importantly the colors match the photos I took at the costume exhibit. I’ll see if I can post some samples. The DVD is almost identical to the TB and ORF in cropping and color, I just had to make a small tweak to get it to match. The Blu-ray is very different.

AFTON ROBOTICS said:

yotsuya said:

Star Wars has the folllowing versions:
(each distinct audio/visual combination listed separately)

1 - 1977 premier version - limited release. Preserved in Puggo Grand and Moth3r’s bootleg (and a few other sources). Identified by alternate end credits and 3 effects shots that were revised (the Star Destroyer shooting at the Falcon, the matte painting composite outside the hanger on Yavin IV, the planet/jungle composite of the fighters taking off). Likely all 70 mm prints were of this version. Featured one of the first 4 track surround sound mixes using the Dolby Stereo system. 1977 sound mix was the same for both matrix stereo and 6 track magnetic on 70 mm prints (the 70 mm prints featured at least one LFE track, probably two)
2 - 1977 wide release version - changed the end credits and the three effects shots. Also introduced the mono mix. Preserved in the Technicolor IB prints and all the known 35 mm prints. All foreign language versions of the film come from this edit.
3 - 1981 re-release - changed the opening crawl to add Episode IV and A New Hope. Otherwise the same as 2. It seems older prints in good shape had the new crawl spliced on so some prints may have been from the premier version.
4 - 1982-1985 home video release - A unique version found in home video that usually featured the 81 crawl, the original premier version of the three effects shots, and the revised end credits. 77 sound mix.
5 - 1985-1989 home video release - A unique version found in home video that featured the 81 crawl, the original premier version of the three effects shots, and the revised end credits. Preserved in the JSC. New sound mix.
6 - 1985 new interpositive version - 2 with the 1981 crawl. First release was the Definitive Edition with a new sound mix.
7 - 2006 GOUT - 6 with the original 1977 crawl put back. Essentially the same as 2, but with the audio mix of 6.
8 - 1997 SE
9 - 2004 DVD
10 - 2011 Blu-ray

Because of the timeline that some of the events are tied to (the foreign language prints, the mono mix, the extant 35 mm prints, the new interpostive in 1985), the alternate end credits and the alternate version of the three effects shots must be from the earliest prints. The negative was edited and remained unchanged (except for the opening crawl) from 1977 until the SE edits were made. My guess as to why so many versions of the home video feature the alternate three effects shot is that they used either interpostives or prints from the premier batch and updated the opening crawl and end credits. And they are only found in English language editions.

Many thanks for the list i will include all of these versions in my set now
PS If you can give a list like this for TESB and ROTJ that would be great thanks 😄

That is my completeist list. I really don’t consider 4, 5, or 6 as valid separate release except in terms of audio. I look to how the negative was changed which is 1, 2, and 3 only, with 3 having 4 separate audio mixes (mono, 77 stereo, 85 stereo, and 93 stereo). If there was a way to do it seemlessly that would work on all players, I would include that bastard edit (#5, which was never an edit to the negative) which is what I spent the 80’s watching with the 85 audio mix.

My research for TESB and ROTJ is not as extensive (and there haven’t been nearly as many changes). I think it goes like this:

TESB
1 - 70 mm version - some effects not complete, slightly different audio edit. An in theater audio recording exists.
2 - general release - Preserved in the earliest home video with the original theatrical audio. Puggo Strikes back has a unique mono audio mix.
3 - 1985 new interpositive version - first seen with a slightly altered audio mix (some changes plus 5 channel instead of 4 channel audio in the matrix) in the Definitive Edition, Faces, and 2006 GOUT.
4 - 1997 SE
5 - 2004 DVD
6 - 2011 Blu-Ray

ROTJ
1 - Original theatrical version, preserved in the earliest video releases
2 - 1985 new interpostive version - first seen with a slightly altered audio mix in the Definitive Edition, Faces, and 2006 GOUT.
3 - 1997 SE
4 - 2004 DVD
5 - 2011 Blu-Ray

For both of these, there was a slightly different audio mix done in 1985, but the differences are in the mixdown from multi-channel surround, not in the audio stems themselves. I have not checked yet of these match the original theatrical audio or the 1993 audio. I think the former considering that ANH differed only by 1 line between the 77 and 85 mixes.

I believe that for all three movies, except for the mono mixes, the surround mixes were essentially the same from the original theatrical mix to the 1997 SE (obviously there were changes, but they seem to be changes to the original mix). 2004 saw a slight attempt to remix that resulted in some sounds (namely the music) being in the wrong surround channel. 2011 saw a complete remix from the ground up of all three movies - with mixed results. Overall they are vastly improved, but some clips have either deteriorated or were processed badly and don’t sound as good.

Star Wars has the folllowing versions:
(each distinct audio/visual combination listed separately)

1 - 1977 premier version - limited release. Preserved in Puggo Grand and Moth3r’s bootleg (and a few other sources). Identified by alternate end credits and 3 effects shots that were revised (the Star Destroyer shooting at the Falcon, the matte painting composite outside the hanger on Yavin IV, the planet/jungle composite of the fighters taking off). Likely all 70 mm prints were of this version. Featured one of the first 4 track surround sound mixes using the Dolby Stereo system. 1977 sound mix was the same for both matrix stereo and 6 track magnetic on 70 mm prints (the 70 mm prints featured at least one LFE track, probably two)
2 - 1977 wide release version - changed the end credits and the three effects shots. Also introduced the mono mix. Preserved in the Technicolor IB prints and all the known 35 mm prints. All foreign language versions of the film come from this edit.
3 - 1981 re-release - changed the opening crawl to add Episode IV and A New Hope. Otherwise the same as 2. It seems older prints in good shape had the new crawl spliced on so some prints may have been from the premier version.
4 - 1982-1985 home video release - A unique version found in home video that usually featured the 81 crawl, the original premier version of the three effects shots, and the revised end credits. 77 sound mix.
5 - 1985-1989 home video release - A unique version found in home video that featured the 81 crawl, the original premier version of the three effects shots, and the revised end credits. Preserved in the JSC. New sound mix.
6 - 1985 new interpositive version - 2 with the 1981 crawl. First release was the Definitive Edition with a new sound mix.
7 - 2006 GOUT - 6 with the original 1977 crawl put back. Essentially the same as 2, but with the audio mix of 6.
8 - 1997 SE
9 - 2004 DVD
10 - 2011 Blu-ray

Because of the timeline that some of the events are tied to (the foreign language prints, the mono mix, the extant 35 mm prints, the new interpostive in 1985), the alternate end credits and the alternate version of the three effects shots must be from the earliest prints. The negative was edited and remained unchanged (except for the opening crawl) from 1977 until the SE edits were made. My guess as to why so many versions of the home video feature the alternate three effects shot is that they used either interpostives or prints from the premier batch and updated the opening crawl and end credits. And they are only found in English language editions.

Wazzles said:

What is the source for the theatrical version of AOTC? Also, would you be willing to release the 97’s and TPM separately?

The DVD version and a camera print of the film along with the Cinema DTS audio. Because they don’t align, it is nearly impossible to do a side by side comparison to verify that the reported 3 scenes are the only ones that were changed without a ton of work. I pulled those three scenes from the camera print and degraded the dvd video slightly so the change wasn’t so jarring, which also makes it fit better with the TMP theatrical version found in the TB and ORF broadcasts. For ROTS, I have a leaked low res copy that circulated just before the movie opened (it has no end credits) that agrees with the DVD version except for the one changed wipe we know of, so I have used the DVD version with that one wipe pulled from the blu-ray. I also degraded it to fit with the TPM theatrical version.

If anyone knows how to warp one video to line up with another, I am interested in finding out because I could do some creative editing like Harmy has done with is despecialized to do a better restoration of those three sections of AOTC and up the quality of all three PT.

My project has moved from video to audio. I’m trying to nail down the “special features” portion of my project. For the OOT, I am using LD audio sources. For the SE, TPM, and AOTC, I am using the Cinema DTS. For ROTS I am going to use the Dolby Digital EX from the DVD. So far I have my first draft of the 77 4 channel surround, a near final assembly of TPM, and a second try at AOTC. I have not started on the SE or the other OOT soundtracks yet. I want to do the SE, comparing it to the DVD version so I can get a feel for the right volume mix, before I do anything more with trying to extract and enhance the surround mixes from the LD stereo tracks. My first try at the 77 mix left the surround channel volume too low. Slow steady progress.

I just quickly laid in the dvd and the blu-ray versions in my project to check on the differences. I still haven’t found exactly where Fode and Beed’s arm intersects the vest, but everything else has lined up exactly. The DVD lined up without much adjustment to the image (it has a bit wider image than the TB and ORF broadcasts, but about the same height and nearly identical colors). The crowd shot is half missing when Fode and Beed introduce Sebulba and the cutaway to Watto and Warwick Davis is missing. One shot of Fode and Beed is moved, but otherwise all the shots are in order. The shot of Qui-Gon is cust short instead of wiping to the Coruscant skyline (a shot that was completly replaced in favor of the air taxi sequence) and when it wipes back to the Queen’s apartments, the shot is two frames off until the scene change. The Blu-ray credits are different as well as all the other blu-rya changes like Yoda. I actually used my 720p watching copy of the HD broadcast of the DVD version and everything I checked lined up. It has burned in English subtitles, so those shots would have to be fixed.

I also confirmed that Adywan missed two frames at the start of reel 6 and that his time adjustment for the DTS tracks is off by a couple of frames over the course of the rest of the film. I used the TB audio track and a mixdown to Dolby Surround Stereo of the DTS tracks to align the audio. I also compared the mix to the Dolby Digital from the DVD. That mix has a pure LFE track rather than the calculated one that using the Cinema DTS requires. The complex edits through the pod race sequence make using that LFE problematic. I’m still trying to find the right level to export the tracks at and I’m going to assemble and align the AOTC and 97 SE Trilogy DTS before I’m going to call this final (in theory, all the tracks should use the same time adjustment settings so I want to make sure I’m using the right setting before I call it done). I listened to the reel changes in the DVD and Blu-ray audio and it doesn’t sound like an abrupt cut, nor does it sound like a long seguey, so I did a fade overlap of about half a frame and it sounds the same.

Now I’m off to play with AOTC - finding the reel changes to align the DTS tracks to.

That is one reason why the 1080p broadcast of the DVD version is so important as a starting point. Few of those errors were fixed for that release, just the two extensions.

DrDre said:

I’ve adjusted the luminosity curve somewhat to prevent blowout and crush. Consequently, there’s also more shadow detail, but overall it (luckily 😉) looks pretty similar:

Now that has a richness and balance that looks like technicolor. Very much like the recent blu-ray restorations of The Ten Commandments and The Quiet Man.

I’m doing something similar, but I’m merging the DVD/BR into a hybrid version. If you are going to be complete, I’ve identified 5 different versions of the original film (original 77 premiere, 77 general release, 81 rerelease, 80’s home video, and 90’s home video… And you could add the GOUT for a 6th version). There is the 75 mm version of TESB that you’d have to recreate, And a few other variations that don’t exist in high quality, such as the 35 mm version of AOTC. I’m sticking to just the major version unless I can use angles or something to include them.

DrDre said:

Tomorrow I will upload the next batch of scans. I also think I’ve optimized the contrast for the earlier ones:

The problem I’m seeing with this is that you have blown out the contrast - inky darks, and blinding lights. Your un-contrast adjusted version looked much better. I think to meet your original purpose you should just leave the scans uncorrected so we can see the calibrated colors.

The LD’s are where you find the good sound.

I’m not terribly impressed with that transfer. The colors are so muted and it is so dark.

And from what we’ve seen with the Star Wars stereo track from 1977, if they matrixed something they never bothered to make a non-matrix mix so the DVD should have that same matrixed soundtrack. There is not “just stereo” mix of the OT. All the stereo soundtracks are matrixed with either 4 or 5 channels.