yotsuya

Wow… that is some complicated nonsense. Vader is Luke’s father but not Anakin… that makes no sense at all. The name Anakin hadn’t come up yet when Vader, in James Earl Jones’s voice (or in the novel if you read that first), said he was Luke’s father. We have no idea when Lucas decided that was going to be the story, but script hints at it with the consistent lack of any line at that location (referring instead to inserted dialog). We only know that sometime between the dated first draft in Feb 78 and the completion of filming in Sept 79 that Vader was Luke’s father. It could have been earlier (and not included in what he gave Leigh Brackett on the story), but we really don’t know. It was almost certainly in the script that the novelization writer worked off of, but that was about the same time.

Lucas claims he had that in mind from earlier, but with his track record at reconning the past, he can’t be completely trusted. But, others can. Hamill, Kershner, and Kasdan had no reason to lie and according to them it was intended that way from Hamill’s performance on set and had been that way in the full screenplay (not the shooting copies given to the crew) for quite some time. The earlier drafts of the screenplay bear this out by having a reference to inserted dialog. According to the book Star Wars: The Annotated Scripts (by Laurent Bouzereau), it was the second draft that had the first version of the iconic “I am your father” scene. That was the draft Lucas did himself before Kasdan came on board. This doesn’t quite back Lucas up, but it does place it very early in the story development.

Anyone else here read the Millennium Falcon novel? According to that it was in a serious accident and had to be rebuilt with a lot of parts from another YT-1300 freighter (like about 1/3 of the ship was replaced). So she could look like new for Lando, but she isn’t a new ship. And she shouldn’t have that ROTS paint job. And L. Neil Smith first mentions the Falcon in his Lando books with this line, “My Millennium Falcon’s only a small converted freighter, and a rather elderly one at that, I’m afraid.” So there is no way the Falcon should be new, but it probably shouldn’t look quite as beat up as it does in ANH.

This thread is being so useful in contemplating what I want to do with Dune. I think I might have to do two versions - an extended theatrical version and a closer to script version.

I’d say a Filoni/Johnson writing team and Johnson or someone good with endings to direct. If Abrams gets involved again it will be a disaster, even if he is director (directors get to direct the editing stage and Abrams must not do that again). Lucas always liked to take his time writing and developing, but we all saw how well that worked for the PT installments. Writing a good story doesn’t take long if you have a good idea to begin with and good writers working on it.

I only watched the beginning, but there are some things I would change already. I would start with some shots of sand with the Prophesy Theme and then cut to the great hall and some chanting then to the Freeman Reverned Mother holding her hand up. While the book did have Irulan narrating, that is unnecessary in a film. What I would first do (and might if I ever finish with my Star Wars projects) is compile all the footage in the proper order. Then do some judicious cutting where it is too long or repetative. What I hate about the theatrical version is that some big pieces are missing. Paul’s two step-sons show up but are never explained. That was one of the worst cuts in the SciFi version as well.

Valheru_84 said:

Don’t know about the best 3 hour cut per se but having a quick look around fanedit.org I’d say this version sounds like it could be my definitive version of Dune once I get a chance to download and watch it.

https://ifdb.fanedit.org/dune-the-alternative-edition-redux/

Hadn’t thought about a Dune fan edit till now thanks to your thread and it is one movie that definitely needs some fixing. I’ve actually been looking out for the theatrical release on DVD for ages as the 3hr version is absolute rubbish despite the extra footage. Seems though that I won’t need to now though 😃

.Val

It’s on the spleen so I’m going to check it out. Claims he did a lot of work that would be useful not to have to redo.

There is one called the Third Stage Edition that I really like.

I’ve long wanted to make my own cut, but the Extended Edition has never come out on BR so the highest res I could do it in would be 480. I might stretch that to 720 if I could enhance the missing shots. Plus the BR has even more missing scenes. I picked up the script long ago and I’ve always wanted to realize the opening as it is there - it opens on the prophesy. Always thought that would be cool. Need more aerial shots of dunes to make that work.

Sorry, but Palpatine was one of the more brilliant aspects of the PT. And as to your earlier comment that lumped ROTJ with the PT, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve always found ROTJ to be a fitting and well done completion of the trilogy. The Ewoks and 2nd Death Star may feel a bit contrived (and show the earliest signs of Lucas’s laziness since they are rehashed from earlier drafts of the story), but what the characters do with the situation they find themselves in is a great third act of the trilogy. And no moment of the OT is anywhere near as powerful as the final part of Luke and Vader’s duel and the following confrontation between Luke and the Emperor and the Emperor’s demise at Vader’s hands (or hand and stump maybe?).

My question about 8 and 9 is if they can make Snoke and his eventual demise even more powerful than that.

I find that Supremacy to be a refreshing break from the typical arrowhead design of star destoyers.

I think that there are hints that Lucas may have have the idea earlier. Vader being Luke’s father is not in any of the screenplay drafts for the same reason that even David Prowse did not know - secrecy.

But we have been forgetting another group of people who knew the secret - Del Rey. The novelization came out about the same time as the movie. According to Wookiepedia it was May 1980. Donald F. Glut, the writer, had to know about it far enough in advance to put in the correct wording (interesting to note that Luke knew Vader was telling the truth in the novel), as did the publishers, editors, proof readers, type setters, etc. But that is a group that has been good at keeping secrets for a very long time.

I seriously don’t think this was a last minute change. I think he went in with this in mind. He wrote the story and Leigh Brackett did the screenplay and on all the copies I’ve seen, that spot says “insert dialog B”. Whether he let her in on the secret or not, we can’t know, but the draft scripts that got out do not have any line at that spot. I think he had some backstory planned for Anakin that was not what Ben told Luke in ANH (what that is no one knows), but Alec Guinness made this face right before he launched into the story of what happened that just screams something more significant. That was either a lucky coincidence or a brilliant inclusion.

Not really a preservation or restoration, but more of a remix, but I just completed my 5.1 edit that imports the most notable changes make to the mono-mix. It includes Beru, several other alternate lines, sound effects, etc. Most come directly from the mono mix, but I’ve also used the 2011 BR to fill in to expand the mono to full surround. I’ve used the 93 ANH mix as the base. I also replaced the Fox Fanfare with the TESB one (I’ve never understood why they have never updated the music after rerecording it for TESB, not even for the SE). I’m glad I did most of the work in stereo first. Doing it in 5.1 was actually easier. I had to cheat in a few cases and resort to using the 2011 5.1 surround tracks instead of the L/R tracks due to traces of the original dialog. But the 93 mix (at least as we have it as a matrixed stereo track) has a lot of cross talk so I had to recreate that and the two little tricks end up sounding very natural. I still have to listen to the mix to see if it is final or if it needs work, but I have all the edits in place.

As a side benefit, I now have what I feel is an accurate LFE for the 93 mix. With some tweaking it should work for the 77 and 85 audio as well. But I will need to do that for TESB and ROTJ as well. That and a few other tweaks means the 5.1 mixes I’m working on won’t be just decoded Dolby Stereo. For the original theatrical audio mixes it will be close to the 70 mm 4.2 audio (modern equipment doesn’t really allow for 2 LFE tracks). For the 93 mixes, I am going to leave the surround as the ProLogic II stereo surround. It is not identical to the 97 SE, but very similar.

I also need to redo my BR ANH edit and finally get to TESB and ROTJ. I think I have a new approach that gets closer than my previous one. My GOUT color correction is, I think, final. The audio is almost final (LFE and tweaking the sync left). The 97 SE needs some tweaking to match my GOUT color correction. The only thing I need to do on the audio is pull the LFE track from Althor1138’s LD AC3 track. I think the end of this project is in sight.

I would accept the challenge, but my time is limited and I’m trying to work on Star Wars (I am starting over on the BR color correcting project). I’ve considered tackling FOTR myself, but my method would involve utilizing the theatrical cut BR and the EE DVD to restore the colors rather than color correcting all of the EE BR itself. I am also shy of hard drive space.

kk650 said:

Everybody is welcome to their opinion. Just because you and DrDre agree on something doesn’t make it fact.

I can see the difference between the original 35mm image and the colour matched shot, the fact that you and DrDre cannot tells me that either your monitor is not as sensitive to differences in colour/image dynamics as mine or you simply don’t have the experience I do colour grading. I have created over 200 releases and with each release I have learnt something new. That experience adds up and gives you insight that others less experienced may not have. There is a big difference between analysing single frames out of context and actually regrading a whole film so it looks good the whole way through.

When you remove a blanket tint of course shot by shot colour inconsistencies will increase, because the blanket tints were added in part to hide said inconsistencies, but targeting single frames you don’t like because they are not completely colour balanced and arguing the whole release needs to be redone is silly, a whole film is never going to have every shot completely colour balanced so the sky always has the same colour in every shot, consecutive shots are often shot at different times with different lighting conditions and therefore sunlight and skies changing colours between consecutive shots. That is just a logistical reality to shooting a film. That is why it is more important to regrade films by watching said film in motion, rather than regrading from screencaps, that way you can see the bigger picture and get a much better idea of colours and especially the image dynamics in motion.

Like I said to DrDre, watch the actual release in motion rather than judging from single frames and perhaps your opinion may change. I am very happy with how this release looks in motion and I have no plans to change it in the near future. If you or DrDre want to discuss further with me how Raiders of the Lost Ark looks best, create your own releases and then we can compare how each of our releases looks in motion and have a very interesting discussion.

I do agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but on several points you are finding fault where there is none. DrDre’s matching of the BR to the 35 mm did produce very tiny differences. But when I examined it in detail, the eyes turned out lighter and more blue - the very direction you say it needs to go. Eyes are a very subjective thing. Human vision is not driven by exact colors, but by perceived colors. Your brain can falsely identify two different colors as the same and two identical colors as different depending on how they are viewed. Going back to the pixel RBG data is the most reliable for determining if you have overdone a color correction. I have been correcting photos for more than 20 years and it is so easy to take a correction too far. Neither DrDre or myself is saying that the original isn’t too yellow, but we are both saying that how you removed the yellow did not work… not in this case. The results are not up to your normal standards. I’ve seen your work and on this occasion, there has just been something off. Believe it or not, we are trying to help you. I do tend you lean too far toward blues, but this is the first time that I have felt it went too far. The walls of the buildings was the shot that jumped out at me the most. The pink of the walls does not look natural. The warmth of the blu-ray would be preferable. Whatever you did to remove the blanket yellow damaged the highlights. Perhaps it is because it was applied differently that other projects you have worked on. The damage may be there from the addition of the yellow and taking it out reveals it. Rather than leave it damaged, tweaking the yellow removal process would produce much more appealing results.

I think what pisses me off the most about this is that no only have these people stolen the hard work of others, but they haven’t even bothered to repackage it as their own. So if the hammer comes down, it will be the ones who put in the work who get hit, not the morons who are causing the problems. The only way I know to combat this is to liberally sprinkle the “fan production - not for sale or rent” (or whatever way you like to put it) in ways that would force all but the laziest to repackage it with their own work (covers and menus) to sell ready made discs.

kk650 said:

That is definately better than the previous colour matching attempt but it is not indistuinguishable in terms of colour/image dynamics, the picture on the left looks fine but the picture on the right still looks unnatural in terms of fleshtones, Indiana’s eyes in particular look very bad on the right and not at all like the picture on the left. The only thing worse than getting the fleshtones looking unnatural is having the eyes looking unnatural.

I’ve always found what your colour matching tool can do very impressive but unless it can match the colours and image dynamics 100%, there is a margin of error of the algorithm making up colours/changing image dynamics that I personally would not be able to tolerate. If I were to create a release using that tool, I would never release it unless it was 100% accurate or the difference was so negligable that I could not tell the difference looking with my own eyes on my 30 inch monitor.

I just heard about this little difference of opinion and wanted to see what it was about. I can understand most of the posts, but this one was really off the wall. I’ve sat for the last 5 minutes trying to find some aspect of the two images that was different in terms of color. I can’t see a single difference.

I have to agree with DrDre on this one. Your correction is too blue. Yes, your fleshtones look great, but at the cost of the rest of the image. This has been very indicative of a lot of the corrections I’ve seen on around here. I’ve even had discussions with DrDre when some of his color corrections have seemed to favor yellow unnecessarily. It is easy, especially when you are faced with a color issue that you can clearly see and are trying to fix, to take it too far the other way. I don’t like the Despecialized Edition because I think Harmy overcorrected to remove the magenta tint in ANH. I’ve found many of my own corrections attempts to have gone too far yellow or blue when trying to fix the skin tones and other colors of ANH.

I’ve spent a lot of time, long before attempting color corrections on films, trying to restore old photos that have turned yellow or pink with age. The yellow ones are a case where the finishing coating has turned yellow with age, tinting the entire picture. I found, much to my dismay, that you can’t just pull the yellow and get a good result. The yellow tint obscures some of the natural yellow and removing it removes the natural yellow. So by removing all of the yellow tint, you have likely removed some natural yellow, particularly from the lighter areas.

Probably the most useful thing I have studied to try to teach myself color correction on films has been to study real life. I was as intent as many about making ANH yellow until I was in a meeting one day and actually looked at the faces across the table. I found that they were pinker than my mind had thought and their skin tones varied considerably. So don’t take anyone’s word, but take the time to go out and look at things in the real world. Find some white buildings in the sun and see what they look like. Look at people in a large hall, a classroom. Get a feel for the colors. Don’t let a feeling of yellow dictate how you remove the yellow. Find a way to remove it and have the result feel natural. Colors have to be adjusted carefully or you can easily have something that looks bad. And it might not look bad to you at first, but live with it and look at it critically. That is why we post screen shots - to get feedback as to how others feel it looks. When you have more than one person making the same observation, you might want to take another look at how you got your result, and how you can get the fix you want and make it better.

The early Despecialized were a mix of the 2006 GOUT edition upscaled to 720p and the bluray downscaled. The latest release has switched that over to 35 mm film scans instead of the 2006 GOUT. The next step is to make it full 1080p.

Then there are he 35 mm preservations. Currently we have the Star Wars SSE, the TESB grindhouse and the ROTJ grindhouse. A grindhouse edition is not fully cleaned up. More cleaned up versions are in the works, but nothing final yet.

Several attempts have been made to clean and enhance the 2006 GOUT (which stands for George’s Original Unaltered Trilogy and usually specifically refers to the 2006 DVD bonus disc with the original films).

Preservations of older laserdisc editions are out there. There was the Faces edition in 1995, the Definitive Edition in 1993, the Special Widescreen Edition in the late 80’s, the Japanese Special Collection at about the same time. Most of the older versions are pan and scan and of limited interest. There is a bootleg from back in the early 80’s that Moth3r archived that is probably the earliest version of the film. Then there is Puggo’s 16 mm preservation (Puggo Grand aka ANH, Puggo Strikes Back aka TESB, and Return of the Pug aka ROTJ which is still forthcoming).

There are also project working on the 97 SE, and the blu-ray.

I like them seeming to be uninspired. It shows a level of utilitarian desperation to the First Order.

Can’t wait to see it, droppings and all.

Frank your Majesty said:

yotsuya said:

(I put ANH lower because it uses more varied styles that don’t fit as well with the saga as a whole while TESB, TPM, and ROTJ are more thematically unified)

I completely disagree. For me, Star Wars has the perfect score, every piece is unique and memorable. From Empire onward, there are a few outstanding pieces, while most of the music just blends in and isn’t nearly as prominent as in Star Wars.

I agree for a stand alone movie. But ANH had a classical temp track that Williams was writing to where TESB and the rest do not (at least I’ve never heard they did) and each piece is more melodic and in sync with the saga. ANH has a very different score than any of the others. I only ranked it lower because it is so different and the music, while iconic, doesn’t stand alone as well as TESB.

I kinda like the new walker design. It is different. I think it epitomizes the difference between the Empire and the First Order. The dreadnought doesn’t really seem that big. It really hearkens back to the old Star Wars Marvel comics and Crimson Jack’s Star Destroyer.

Possessed said:

TV’s Frink said:

The TPM score is very good. I don’t remember much of the other two because so much is recycled from TPM.

Aotc definitely but I’d say rots has a very good score also, maybe not as good as tpm.

Musically either Williams is just getting old or Lucas wasn’t giving him good instructions or the whole editing process really screwed things up. I think TPM was the last good Star Wars score. AOTC has Across the Stars and then blech. His songs for TFA are much better than the ROTS score. But to be honest, the music is best in TESB. It would be wonderful if Rian Johnson could get Williams to deliver a stunning score again. Music can make the movie. I think Rogue One might have been even better with Williams, but they used his themes with some new ones and did something very good (if not perfect). I hadn’t really thought about it before, but I think musically, I would rank William’s films scores as TESB, TPM, ROTJ, ANH, ATOC, TFA, ROTS. (I put ANH lower because it uses more varied styles that don’t fit as well with the saga as a whole while TESB, TPM, and ROTJ are more thematically unified)

I tend to disagree. Kennedy and Disney fell victim to the hype that is JJ Abrams. He gave us a start to a trilogy rather than a stand alone film that is part of a trilogy (the man just can’t figure out how to end his stories). Rogue One on the other hand is a fantastic adventure that takes two paragraphs from the ANH opening crawl and makes a truly great movie out of it. The most like the OT of any of non OT films.

I love your description of the prequels - “At least with Lucas you got fascinating failures.” I think you nailed that.

I agree with DrDre. Looks like you took out too much.

That’s why I’ve ended up going from 3 TB (which I though was more than enough) to 9 TB. Gotta have room for gems like this.

Density said:

I’m afraid this movie is going to suck. I have no desire whatsoever to see anyone, anywhere, ever play Han Solo but Harrison Ford. It’s not like James Bond; Solo IS Ford. There is no Han Solo without him, only an impostor. Indiana Jones I might be a little more open to re-casting, maybe, but not this.

So the movie is DOA for me for that reason alone. Add the fact that from everything I’m hearing it seems like just another fan service mash-up like Rogue One that, again like Rogue One, tells a pointless story which over-explains the background of the original film, and it just holds no interest for me whatsoever. I don’t want to know Han’s backstory dammit! Some things are better left to the imagination.

Disney is starting to worry me. I was initially excited at the prospects of expanding Star Wars with a constant stream of new movies, but they just keep milking the same cows over and over again. The possibilities for this universe are so vast that it’s incredibly disappointing they can’t seem to do anything more original with it.

Han Solo is a character. I personally have been wanting this particular story for nearly 40 years. I’m not alone. That’s why 3 of the first 4 spin-off novels were of Han Solo. That’s why there was another 3 written later that explored his origins. So, while I think Harrison is a fine actor, for me the character is far more than his portrayal. And, just as Indiana Jones was played by 5 different actors, I have no problem with Han being played by another (he has the looks, so if he can bring the feeling to it, he works). And setting it 10 years before ANH gives them some nice leeway that he doesn’t have to be the exact same character we saw in ANH. And considering that I dislike The Force Awakens and I loved Rogue One, I am pretty excited about this one and happy with the change in directors. I happen to love Ron Howard’s work (and his brother’s) and think he is a pretty damn fine director. I don’t consider these project as fan service or mash-ups. TFA was more that than Rogue One and this movie appears to be giving life to an period in Han’s history that has not been well covered before. A.C. Crispin did not have much of Lando in her books and Daley didn’t know he existed. We might get to see Han win the Falcon, but I am not expecting that to be pivotal to the plot. None of this is any guarantee that the film will either be a success or failure (well, it is pretty certain to be a box office success but I was talking about a success with old-school fans).