yotsuya

NeverarGreat said:

Here’s how I might restructure the villain’s plan for the trilogy:

TFA

The crawl establishes that the First Order is intent on killing the last of the Jedi. This is the most important thing for them, though it is unclear why.

The Starkiller is multi-purpose. The interior has been hollowed out through mining to supply the ores necessary for the First Order/Palpatine’s fleet. After this it has been retrofitted as an experimental weapon by ambitious First Order leadership spearheaded by Hux. The fact that it was first used as a forge could be a mystery in TFA or only hinted at, but explained later on.

After Kor Sella is sent to the Senate the base begins charging, and everything from Restructured happens as planned except that the base is destroyed before it can fire like in the original. The Republic is not destroyed.

There are hints as to the true size of the hidden fleet and their provenance, perhaps placed into one of Rey’s visions or in Kylo’s interrogation of Poe.

TLJ

The crawl establishes that Kor Sella’s mission to the Senate has been a success and the Republic is in the process of relocating its fleet to D’Qar to bolster the Resistance forces.

However a Star Destroyer appears before the fleet is fully assembled and wipes out the planet (This uses footage from TROS and TFA). Only a few ships escape to join the Resistance, and these, we later learn, were tracked.

Cut to the island where Rey tries to convince Luke to join the fight. She doesn’t know that the Republic is gone, so doesn’t tell him that the First Order is on the verge of victory. Since Luke isn’t connected to the Force he can’t feel such a loss anyway.

Cut back to the Resistance base and Hux’s forces arrive to cut off their retreat. Cut the jokey attitude of the Resistance characters to match the grave knowledge that the Republic has been destroyed.

The film carries on much as before except that the final scene shows Kylo Ren finding Palpatine and his fleet instead of showing the Broom Boy scene.

TROS (or THE FINAL ORDER)

The crawl states that the First Order is moving quickly to gain control of the galaxy.

The first scene is Palpatine’s message to the galaxy. The full threat of his fleet is revealed.

Our heroes rush to find the Sith artifacts required to locate the Sith planet, etc.

The defeat of the First and Final Orders shows a montage of planets rejoicing, prefaced with Broom Boy relating Luke’s inspirational visage which reignited hope in the galaxy. This is bookended by him walking outside and seeing a First Order Star Destroyer broken and burning in the night sky above.

Rey visits the homestead. End Credits.

I’d like to see this.

We see the Holdo maneuver used on the Star Destroyer over the forest moon of Endor (where the Ewoks are watching) so it isn’t an impossible to repeat maneuver. I’d leave the mention of it in.

Vladimon said:

How I wish we could have a 4K99 project going on right now.
I think forum member ZigZig is working on a 4k scan of TPM theatrical cut? But he said he was busy and wouldn’t update us on his progress too often.

I kinda get the hate many people carry for this movie in their hearts, but personally I just like this film. It has great nostalgia factor to me and I honestly think it’s not nearly as bad a film as most would have us believe. And that legendary soundtrack!

It’s long been my wish to own at least a nice 1080p version of the theatrical cut without the terrible DNR and awful colors as seen on the BD release and with no upscaled, ugly and blurry extended scenes/shots like those inserted into the pod race sequence.

Oh well, keep dreaming, I shall.

As version of TMP included with Disney+ is not a new scan from what we have on Blu-ray, a 4k scan of a print of the film would be of great value and might contain some additional details than what the 4k official release will have (assuming they don’t rescan it in the coming months).

And frankly, it is in many ways the best of the prequels. It has the best music and has a truly unique story and gives a glimpse of the Republic before Palpatine started tearing it apart. It shows us what the Jedi used to be. I am rather fond of it and I think Qui-gon Jinn is the best Jedi of the entire Saga.

oojason said:

Seems there will also be an 18-disc ‘Skywalker Saga’ blu ray box set (and a 9-disc box set on dvd) - for the UK at least…

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B082WXD4ZH & https://us.zavvi.com/blu-ray-and-dvd/the-rise-of-skywalker/box-sets.list
 

^ going on this article - https://thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/121919-0930
 

I imagine there’ll also be an option in most other countries too… (or ‘on import’ for those that may prefer it IF it a UK-only thing)
 

Glad to hear I don’t need to get the 4k versions. I probably will have to get this, if nothing else for the new transfer of the OT SE. I hope there are good special features. I think I’ll wait for some reviews of what is in it before buying it.

I seem to be in the minority in liking this film. I felt that it had a lot to add to the previous movies and didn’t detract from any of them. So many of the critic reviews on RT were full of this film rewriting and retconning TLJ and I didn’t find a single instance of that.

This movie was very much an adventure. In fact the whole saga is very much a series of adventures. Star Wars is not heavy on themes, except in the end Good wins over Evil. But I felt that the theme for this film was the evil in your family does not define you. Kylo spent 2 1/2 films focused on Darth Vader over his parents or his other ancestors. Palpatine tried to use that family link to pull in Rey. But now, knowing the truth about her parents (the full truth that they went into hiding and obscurity to protect her), she drew on that. In the end she honored their abandonment of the Palpatine name by adopting Skywalker, the family name of her two masters. I think that the family part is echoed by family in other sub-plots in the film. Lando’s was apparently cut, but hints of it remain (the timing for the leaked version isn’t compatible with Rey’s background). Even Poe’s story connect with his past (what he did and who he knew and that even his own personal past as a spice runner didn’t define him as Finn’s background as a stormtrooper didn’t define him and Rey’s as a scavenger didn’t define her). So I think there are plenty of themes beyond the typical good vs. evil that Star Wars focus’s on to give the movie meat. The trilogy has seemed to stick to that idea that you are not stuck with what you used to do and you can change your destiny. All three films have touched on that in different ways.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

DrDre said:

Both JJ and RJ reverse engineered the OT to figure out where to go with their part(s) of the story either in an attempt to replicate the Star Wars formula, or to deliberately starkly deviate from it at key moments, but neither feels like a good, and natural way of developing a story to me. It feels very artificial, like the writer is constantly aware someone (the audience) is watching over their shoulders, and so the entire trilogy is shaped by what the writers’ believe are the audience’s expectations, and they either chose to cater to, or subvert those expectations.

There are only 2 films I can think of in the entire saga that didn’t do the above (Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back).

Writers are always aware the audience is watching/reading. Knowing that isn’t a bad thing. Catering to it CAN be a bad thing, depending on how indulgent the writers get. Pandering is absolutely a bad thing. But many good, natural ways of developing stories involve keeping the audience in mind. “Write for yourself first” is great advice for any storyteller, but that “First” implies that there ARE other concerns to keep in mind as well.

But creation (especially on a scale this big) isn’t all inspiration and desire. Sometimes you have to plink and plunk at it, and that can feel (or appear to be from the backseat) artificial in the moment. That’s where the craft comes in. Passion can’t get a project across the line alone. Often you have to “artificially” introduce things that didn’t just appear in a flash, hand-delivered from the muse.

But that’s also a huge part of why I feel like judging finished work mostly on suppositions of behind-the-scenes machinations and making-of anecdotes isn’t very useful. Most of the audience will never know HOW a thing got made, or what went into its making, or even think to wonder about that aspect, and it honestly shouldn’t really matter. What matters is if it works or if it doesn’t - and if it doesn’t, WHY it doesn’t should be pretty clearly explained without having to go “I bet the guy who wrote it just didn’t feel it like this other guy did.”

Granted, The Rise of Skywalker was very obviously fumbled in its execution and I imagine there are plenty of behind-the-scenes stories we’ll hear eventually as to why it’s such a mess. But acting like the very business of creating fiction is somehow “artificial” because they had knowledge of “the formula” and chose to tinker with the recipe for their own purposes seems like a weird read considering how often that exact bit of business is NECESSARY as a creator to come up with solid work.

Just because we notice the artifice involved in creating and maintaining good fiction doesn’t mean that by the mere fact of our noticing it that it’s now BAD. That’s unfair not only to the writer, but to us as well, because it assumes that we shouldn’t be smart enough to spot seams if we’re looking for them. Of course we are. Most audience members are, honestly. The magic of a good story is that it distracts us from looking, or it engenders enough goodwill that even if we do spot the seams - we don’t care. In some cases, even the seams look good to us.

Basically, what I’m saying is: The Rise of Skywalker doesn’t work because the elements IN the story aren’t well-thought-out, and aren’t executed very well on top of that. If I’m not willing to indulge an imaginative exercise as to how a fabulous movie I watched this weekend was written and executed - like, for example, I didn’t finish watching Little Women the other day and conjure up a possible story as to how Greta Gerwig adapted the book to explain why it worked the way it did - I don’t know that it makes sense for me to do that when JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio drop the ball.

I do think it’s safe to assume they didn’t MEAN to drop the ball.

Well, not all of us think they dropped the ball. But the rest of your post I highly agree with. Formulas are a key ingredient in stories. A great many writers adhere to a formula. Many firmly believe you must have three distinct acts. some don’t care and just want to tell a good story. So I don’t think it is a flaw at all if Abrams sought out and copied the formula from Lucas. That means he was trying to make a Star Wars movie. He failed to do that with his Star Trek films. He played it safe with TFA and I think it shows. That film lacks something that I think he found with TROS. I think what he did worked very well. Sure the film is a non-stop ride, but I have yet to find (or agree with other ides put forward) anything that is a major flaw in the story.

The only flaw I could think of was the 16 hour limit. I think the story sticks to that up until the saber battle on the old Death Star. I think Rey’s defeat of Kylo Ren and the return of Ben Solo wrecked the Emperor’s plans and so he put the countdown on hold while Kijimi was destroyed and until he could sense that Rey was coming to him again. The story feels like that is what is happening and the 16 hour countdown isn’t mentioned other than the first time. I think the story works beautifully and really cements this as the end of the saga. So many things work and enhance the original. And I don’t think Abrams reconned or reversed a single thing from TLJ. I don’t see a single course correction. The story feels organic like Palpatine was always the one pulling the strings. And while how he came back is never really addressed, he is on a planet full of Sith believers who all seem to want him back and are following him. And I’ve seen some interesting hints that Palpatine’s return and Rey being a Palpatine were Abrams original ideas back when he did TFA. To me this was all a natural conclusion to the trilogy. Nothing felt out of place. And with Anakin saying “Rey, Bring back the balance as I did,” it really blows apart the argument that Anakin wasn’t the chosen one and that his sacrifice was negated by this trilogy. Sometime after ROTJ, Palpatine was resurrected by the Sith followers to try to start things over again and that led to this Sequel Trilogy and his (and the Sith) final defeat.

And one of the things that has amused me since first viewing is that the Star Destroyer over the Forrest Moon of Endor was destroyed by the Holdo maneuver. Just another nod to Johnson’s TLJ.

Well, I think there’s a difference between reverse engineering, and a formula. With reverse engineering you attempt to define a formula often with mixed results, which considering the mixed reaction to these films is the case here in my view. With TFA and TROS JJ wanted to replicate a formula, and while he managed to incorporate many elements for many people, I think for many others several key elements are somewhat off. RJ wanted to discover the formula to deliberately deviate from it in places, or recontextualize it, and to many it worked, while for many others RJ discarded key elements of Lucas’ formula, such that it no longer is Star Wars to them. So, in my view in following a formula to create something new, when done right you get Cherry Coke, Vanilla Coke, etc. JJ made Freeway Cola (too similar, while the taste is still off) with his two entries, while what RJ made is some drink that visually looks like cola, but to many it no longer tastes like cola with a very bitter aftertaste.

But Star Wars doesn’t have much of a formula. It is basically mixing Flash Gordon, Dune, Foundation, with epic myths and the hero’s journey in a movie format. Somethings are nice and shiny while others are old and lived in. Lucas kept most of his tale pretty simple for the OT. And while the story is a bit more subtle and complex for the PT, I think this trilogy goes back to being more simple and I think it deviated in some ways, but not in any way that broke Lucas’s basic format. For the previous 6 films, the stories follow the three act format with the trilogies forming another 3 act layer. The first movie introduces the characters and the basic situation, the second film is more character driven with less action, and the third film ramps up the action in a grand finale. The ST follows that precisely. I am well aware of your distaste for how RJ made TLJ, but my problems have all been with how Abrams set things up. I feel that this film fixes some of those mistakes in how it wrapped things up. It answered fan questions about Rey and Snoke without undoing anything about TLJ or undoing how the characters grew. It picked up the story and concluded it.

And let’s not forget how the OT came about. It was too epic for one film so Lucas took the beginning and simplified his tale and then went back to add in pieces from the original to TESB and ROTJ (giving that film the epic battled he’d envisioned initially). And let’s not forget how he changed his mind so often that the OT and PT are riddled with inconsistencies that we have to explain away. Let’s be fair in how we judge the ST and not hold it to a higher standard than we hold Lucas and his two trilogies. Nothing really tops the OT, but this ST I think outdid the PT in just about every way. I think Lucas had a definite vision for the PT that was too subtle and nuanced for most and it really doesn’t come across unless you understand what he was doing. Where the ST is just a more modern mythic story that deals with the return of the old evil. Apt for today in many ways.

Broom Kid said:

DrDre said:

Both JJ and RJ reverse engineered the OT to figure out where to go with their part(s) of the story either in an attempt to replicate the Star Wars formula, or to deliberately starkly deviate from it at key moments, but neither feels like a good, and natural way of developing a story to me. It feels very artificial, like the writer is constantly aware someone (the audience) is watching over their shoulders, and so the entire trilogy is shaped by what the writers’ believe are the audience’s expectations, and they either chose to cater to, or subvert those expectations.

There are only 2 films I can think of in the entire saga that didn’t do the above (Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back).

Writers are always aware the audience is watching/reading. Knowing that isn’t a bad thing. Catering to it CAN be a bad thing, depending on how indulgent the writers get. Pandering is absolutely a bad thing. But many good, natural ways of developing stories involve keeping the audience in mind. “Write for yourself first” is great advice for any storyteller, but that “First” implies that there ARE other concerns to keep in mind as well.

But creation (especially on a scale this big) isn’t all inspiration and desire. Sometimes you have to plink and plunk at it, and that can feel (or appear to be from the backseat) artificial in the moment. That’s where the craft comes in. Passion can’t get a project across the line alone. Often you have to “artificially” introduce things that didn’t just appear in a flash, hand-delivered from the muse.

But that’s also a huge part of why I feel like judging finished work mostly on suppositions of behind-the-scenes machinations and making-of anecdotes isn’t very useful. Most of the audience will never know HOW a thing got made, or what went into its making, or even think to wonder about that aspect, and it honestly shouldn’t really matter. What matters is if it works or if it doesn’t - and if it doesn’t, WHY it doesn’t should be pretty clearly explained without having to go “I bet the guy who wrote it just didn’t feel it like this other guy did.”

Granted, The Rise of Skywalker was very obviously fumbled in its execution and I imagine there are plenty of behind-the-scenes stories we’ll hear eventually as to why it’s such a mess. But acting like the very business of creating fiction is somehow “artificial” because they had knowledge of “the formula” and chose to tinker with the recipe for their own purposes seems like a weird read considering how often that exact bit of business is NECESSARY as a creator to come up with solid work.

Just because we notice the artifice involved in creating and maintaining good fiction doesn’t mean that by the mere fact of our noticing it that it’s now BAD. That’s unfair not only to the writer, but to us as well, because it assumes that we shouldn’t be smart enough to spot seams if we’re looking for them. Of course we are. Most audience members are, honestly. The magic of a good story is that it distracts us from looking, or it engenders enough goodwill that even if we do spot the seams - we don’t care. In some cases, even the seams look good to us.

Basically, what I’m saying is: The Rise of Skywalker doesn’t work because the elements IN the story aren’t well-thought-out, and aren’t executed very well on top of that. If I’m not willing to indulge an imaginative exercise as to how a fabulous movie I watched this weekend was written and executed - like, for example, I didn’t finish watching Little Women the other day and conjure up a possible story as to how Greta Gerwig adapted the book to explain why it worked the way it did - I don’t know that it makes sense for me to do that when JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio drop the ball.

I do think it’s safe to assume they didn’t MEAN to drop the ball.

Well, not all of us think they dropped the ball. But the rest of your post I highly agree with. Formulas are a key ingredient in stories. A great many writers adhere to a formula. Many firmly believe you must have three distinct acts. some don’t care and just want to tell a good story. So I don’t think it is a flaw at all if Abrams sought out and copied the formula from Lucas. That means he was trying to make a Star Wars movie. He failed to do that with his Star Trek films. He played it safe with TFA and I think it shows. That film lacks something that I think he found with TROS. I think what he did worked very well. Sure the film is a non-stop ride, but I have yet to find (or agree with other ides put forward) anything that is a major flaw in the story.

The only flaw I could think of was the 16 hour limit. I think the story sticks to that up until the saber battle on the old Death Star. I think Rey’s defeat of Kylo Ren and the return of Ben Solo wrecked the Emperor’s plans and so he put the countdown on hold while Kijimi was destroyed and until he could sense that Rey was coming to him again. The story feels like that is what is happening and the 16 hour countdown isn’t mentioned other than the first time. I think the story works beautifully and really cements this as the end of the saga. So many things work and enhance the original. And I don’t think Abrams reconned or reversed a single thing from TLJ. I don’t see a single course correction. The story feels organic like Palpatine was always the one pulling the strings. And while how he came back is never really addressed, he is on a planet full of Sith believers who all seem to want him back and are following him. And I’ve seen some interesting hints that Palpatine’s return and Rey being a Palpatine were Abrams original ideas back when he did TFA. To me this was all a natural conclusion to the trilogy. Nothing felt out of place. And with Anakin saying “Rey, Bring back the balance as I did,” it really blows apart the argument that Anakin wasn’t the chosen one and that his sacrifice was negated by this trilogy. Sometime after ROTJ, Palpatine was resurrected by the Sith followers to try to start things over again and that led to this Sequel Trilogy and his (and the Sith) final defeat.

And one of the things that has amused me since first viewing is that the Star Destroyer over the Forrest Moon of Endor was destroyed by the Holdo maneuver. Just another nod to Johnson’s TLJ.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

On second viewing I liked it even more. I had in the back of my mind that I might have missed something the first time around, but I don’t think I did. I didn’t find any big holes and it was even more fun to see it again. I was able to concentrate and hear most of the Jedi lines. Awesome film. Abrams best film ever. He actually managed to nail the ending and add in a short epilogue.

I didn’t have the same experience. If I turn off my brain, it’s a fun albeit messy movie, but once I really delved into the plot, and story it really sort of falls apart much like JJ’s Star Trek 2. There’s a ton of conveniences from the way the heroes conveniently stumble onto the dagger by conveniently landing in quick sand at the right spot, to the way they escape on a ship, that has stood untouched on a hill for a decade (contrast this with the Mandalorean finding his ship stripped for parts after a day), to how the dagger is used to find the location of the wayfinder on moving wreckage in an ocean. Then there’s Lando conjuring a massive fleet and getting it from the core systems to the unknown regions in a time frame that just isn’t possible according to Star Wars canon. I could go on, and on, but you get the idea. This movie is just so sloppy in terms of its storytelling both in terms of in-movie logic, and in relation to established in-universe rules, and lore. I’m not going to be debating this very much anymore, as I’ve kind of grown apathetic towards the new Star Wars movies in general, and the ST in particular (RO being the sole exception), but in my view TFA was a fun, reasonably competent retelling of ANH with a few elements of TESB, and ROTJ thrown in, TLJ is the anti-thesis of Lucas’ Star Wars for me, that I don’t care to discuss any longer, and TROS is ROTJ on steriods, a movie, that hides its many, many flaws with lightning fast pacing, and amazing visuals. It’s funny that with the release of TROS I’m kind of done with discussing these films. There’s just not much there for me, that I haven’t seen done better in the past, and so ROTJ will remain the conclusion of the saga for me personally. The one thing that I am oddly grateful for is, that the recent movies have given me a better appreciation of Lucas’ prequels. I think the Mandalorian, and other live action tv shows have a lot of potential for the future, but the Star Wars cinematic universe has grown stale in my view. I will sort of look at it from a distance to see how Disney will handle the inevitable fallout from the film’s likely underperformance at the box office, mixed reviews, and low cinema score. I suspect they will want to put this entire mess behind them, and will largely ignore this era in their future content, and a new team will likely be brought in to shape the future of the Star Wars cinematic universe.

If timing is part of sloppy story telling that TESB is one of the biggest offenders. Going from Hoth, through the Anoat system, to Bespin during the time Luke trains on Dagobah is nuts. It is a journey that should take years without a hyperdrive. Lando arriving with ships is peanuts in comparison. Not to mention Tatooine being as far as you can get from the bright center of the universe, but apparently being right off the major hyperspace lanes that connect everything. Naboo and Alderaan are nearby, as is Geonosis. And the wreckage of the Death Star was not moving. The characters standing on the wreckage are never tossed around as happens on a floating object. If you are going to dislike a film, please judge it with an equal measure to the three films we know you love. Don’t point out flaws that are also found in the originals (and the originals have their fair share of issues if you examine them too closely). They are supposed to be Space Opera myths for our modern age, so some of those things are not as important as the human story and the good vs. evil lesson that they try to get across.

Unlike in TROS we don’t get a time frame for the Falcon’s journey, or Luke’s stay on Dagobah. Additionally we don’t know how long the gang stayed at Cloud City before they were lured into a trap. We don’t know how long the gang were imprisoned/tortured either, before Luke arrived. It could be months for all we know. TROS expects us to believe, that in less than 16 hours, Lando is able to travel to thousands of systems, convince them of joining the fight against the Final Order, despite the fact that they wouldn’t come to the Resistance’s aid, when they had destroyed SKB, mobilize a gigantic fleet of thousands of ships, that then have to travel across the galaxy to arrive just in time to destroy an immense fleet of star destroyers, that conviently are dead in the water from the get go. The situations are just not comparable. One film is just our heroes travelling/training/staying in a few locations over an unknown time frame, while the other sets a precise time frame, where somewhere in this time frame they meet Lando, have numerous adventures, and then have to conjure up a well coordinated enormous fleet somehow at the last minute. The former is perfectly believable, since there is no time frame given, the second is just nonsensical.

Just to be clear, Bespin and Hoth are so close to each other, they are put in the same spot on the map.

Well, we did get a time frame for the Falcon in ANH, and it all happened pretty quick once we met Han. But my point was that travel time has never been realistic in Star Wars. Never. It just happens and how long it takes depends on how long the scenes on the ship in hyperspace need to be, not how close the locations are supposed to be to each other. I think Abrams has less sense of scale than Lucas did, but neither one gave us any indication how long it takes to get from place to place. The trip from Tatooine to Alderaan took a few hours and Tatooine was supposed to be out of the way, yet in TPM it was closer to Naboo than Coruscant. In ROTJ, Luke pops over to Dagobah and is back before the fleet gets their orders. The logic of hyperspace is subservient to the story. What Abrams did is the same. And I noticed that when Kylo Ren fell and Palpatine changed his plans, the countdown seems to have changed. So it wasn’t as rushed as it first seems. Abrams is just following in Lucas’s footsteps.

And while that is a nice map, none of the maps are canon. The journey the Falcon went on in TESB should have taken years, even at full speed. The timeline that Lucas insists upon doesn’t give it any time at all. ANH to TESB is 3 years and TESB to ROTJ is 1 year making 4 years from ANH to ROTJ and the journey through three systems should take something 19 years if you want to be practical. The story requires that it be much less than that so there would have to be some explanation outside canon as to what went on and how long it took.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

On second viewing I liked it even more. I had in the back of my mind that I might have missed something the first time around, but I don’t think I did. I didn’t find any big holes and it was even more fun to see it again. I was able to concentrate and hear most of the Jedi lines. Awesome film. Abrams best film ever. He actually managed to nail the ending and add in a short epilogue.

I didn’t have the same experience. If I turn off my brain, it’s a fun albeit messy movie, but once I really delved into the plot, and story it really sort of falls apart much like JJ’s Star Trek 2. There’s a ton of conveniences from the way the heroes conveniently stumble onto the dagger by conveniently landing in quick sand at the right spot, to the way they escape on a ship, that has stood untouched on a hill for a decade (contrast this with the Mandalorean finding his ship stripped for parts after a day), to how the dagger is used to find the location of the wayfinder on moving wreckage in an ocean. Then there’s Lando conjuring a massive fleet and getting it from the core systems to the unknown regions in a time frame that just isn’t possible according to Star Wars canon. I could go on, and on, but you get the idea. This movie is just so sloppy in terms of its storytelling both in terms of in-movie logic, and in relation to established in-universe rules, and lore. I’m not going to be debating this very much anymore, as I’ve kind of grown apathetic towards the new Star Wars movies in general, and the ST in particular (RO being the sole exception), but in my view TFA was a fun, reasonably competent retelling of ANH with a few elements of TESB, and ROTJ thrown in, TLJ is the anti-thesis of Lucas’ Star Wars for me, that I don’t care to discuss any longer, and TROS is ROTJ on steriods, a movie, that hides its many, many flaws with lightning fast pacing, and amazing visuals. It’s funny that with the release of TROS I’m kind of done with discussing these films. There’s just not much there for me, that I haven’t seen done better in the past, and so ROTJ will remain the conclusion of the saga for me personally. The one thing that I am oddly grateful for is, that the recent movies have given me a better appreciation of Lucas’ prequels. I think the Mandalorian, and other live action tv shows have a lot of potential for the future, but the Star Wars cinematic universe has grown stale in my view. I will sort of look at it from a distance to see how Disney will handle the inevitable fallout from the film’s likely underperformance at the box office, mixed reviews, and low cinema score. I suspect they will want to put this entire mess behind them, and will largely ignore this era in their future content, and a new team will likely be brought in to shape the future of the Star Wars cinematic universe.

If timing is part of sloppy story telling that TESB is one of the biggest offenders. Going from Hoth, through the Anoat system, to Bespin during the time Luke trains on Dagobah is nuts. It is a journey that should take years without a hyperdrive. Lando arriving with ships is peanuts in comparison. Not to mention Tatooine being as far as you can get from the bright center of the universe, but apparently being right off the major hyperspace lanes that connect everything. Naboo and Alderaan are nearby, as is Geonosis. And the wreckage of the Death Star was not moving. The characters standing on the wreckage are never tossed around as happens on a floating object. If you are going to dislike a film, please judge it with an equal measure to the three films we know you love. Don’t point out flaws that are also found in the originals (and the originals have their fair share of issues if you examine them too closely). They are supposed to be Space Opera myths for our modern age, so some of those things are not as important as the human story and the good vs. evil lesson that they try to get across.

On second viewing I liked it even more. I had in the back of my mind that I might have missed something the first time around, but I don’t think I did. I didn’t find any big holes and it was even more fun to see it again. I was able to concentrate and hear most of the Jedi lines. Awesome film. Abrams best film ever. He actually managed to nail the ending and add in a short epilogue.

liamnotneeson said:

DominicCobb said:

To me what makes characters interesting are there arcs, not just how “fun” they are. TFA and TLJ accomplished this. TROS had cool character ‘moments,’ but it’s just about impossible to track any of the characters stories scene to scene. It’s a mess, which really sucks as a conclusion to their stories (especially when many of them undermine the lessons of the previous films).

I think that this is a result of TLJ. The second act of a trilogy is when most of your character’s development should occur, and Rian wasted it with the already-infamously bad Canto Bight subplot.

I disagree. I think TLJ had a lot of character development. Poe, Finn, and Rey each face a major character flaw and come out the end of the film changed. Poe learns the difference between bravado and leadership. Finn learns what it means to believe in a cause. Rey realizes that she can’t look to others and must rely on herself. All very important character moments and all very crucial to the finale in TROS. The characters in TFA could not do what the characters do in TROS without the changes in TLJ. Everything Johnson did in TLJ, Abrams took and used for TROS. Sure, more was added to Rey’s parents, but only who they were related to. They still were nobodies who don’t even have names. As far as I’m concerned, all the ruckass about TLJ and TROS changing course is nonsense. Everything I got out of TLJ is still valid and necessary to TROS. And I loved the Canto Bight subplot. It added a dimension to the Star Wars galaxy and I think it helped Finn find out who he is.

I have seen it. I have to say that all the negative critics are full of it. Sure, many here don’t like it, but the BS the critics spewed was complete nonsense.

On my first viewing of TLJ, I could see things wrong with it. Same with AOTC many years earlier (and the SE version of the OT). On first viewing there is nothing to most of the theatrical version of the older films I would change. I like the original cuts of TPM, ROTS, ANH, TESB, ROTJ and TLJ. But AOTC and TFA need help. My first reaction to TROS was that this film needs nothing.

Star Wars tells a grand story and with such sweeping and epic stories there are things that must be glossed over to get to the core of the story. This film pulls in more, but sticks to the core story and doesn’t let the rest detract. Only the core 3 matter. First it was Liea, Luke, and Han, then Obi-wan, Padme, and Anakin, and now Poe, Finn, and Rey. I have found several hints that go back to TFA that indicate to me that Rey was always supposed to be a Palpatine. In TLJ Kylo gets a glimpse of her her parents and see nobodies, long dead. Nothing in TROS contradicts anything from the previous two films, it only carries on the story, sometimes in unexpected ways (like Vader is Luke’s father and then Leia is his sister). And those on the Dark side are not always completely truthful and other times the force does not reveal all the truth until the time is right. I found this to be a fitting and powerful end to the Skywalker saga. I took note of what Anakin said to Rey. He told her to balance the force as he once did. So his actions in ROTJ are validated, but Palpatine had a way around it and has come back. Very likely he was dead an what we see is his force animated zombie. Even the crawl says he was dead (the late Emperor). So Ankin briefly balanced the force but the evil lingered. With the previous generations of Jedi urging her on, Rey finds a way to destroy Palpatine. And his claim that he is all the Sith is chilling. It brings new horror to the dialog of ROTJ. It means that when he killed Darth Plagueis, Plagueis basically posessed him, as his master had possessed him, going back to the beginning. Suddenly the rule of two has a chilling meaning.

I did not find this film as rushed as AOTC or ROTS. I found the story well laid out and carefully plotted, giving us just enough of what we need to understand what was going on without getting too distracted. I felt this had a touch of the OT to it in how the story played out, thought it was much faster paced. The words of Lucas’s ANH directing ring in my ears… “faster and more intense” and with this I think Abrams has achieved what Lucas was after. The movie is fast and intense without losing itself to chaos. I found no plot holes on my first viewing (and on later viewings even the great OT sometimes has plot holes so that is nothing to worry about). While I do not think this rises to the greatness of the OT, it comes close (closer that Lucas did in 3 films of the PT). I feel that this vindicates the last attrocities of Abrams (TFA and his Star Trek films) and proves that if he has a solid ending he can deliver a great film.

And with the support of Luke and Leia, I think Rey deserves to claim the Skywalker name. The title of the film fits nicely. I thought some of the things would be a bit cheesy from the spoilers, but I found none of that in the film. I liked the moments of humor and found them very Star Wars appropriate. Lucas may have complaints about some of the story choices, but I think he should find the overall sequel trilogy a fitting end to his legacy. I think future generations are going to very much appreciate what has been put on film.

If you haven’t seen it yourself, you really shouldn’t be hating on it. See it for yourselves and make up your own minds. Even if you think you might agree with someone, don’t trust them and see it for yourself. It is worth at least one viewing.

adywan said:

Strange that no one is factoring in the fact that a bootleg dropped 2 hours after the midnight screening in the UK has finished. BEFORE most other places even started showing it. Now there have been 3 different bootlegs appear in 3 days. This didn’t happen for TFA or TLJ. It was a week before a bootleg dropped for TLJ. On social media there are posts filled with people saying that they no longer have to pay to go and see it.

And then there is the fact that this one has been released the weekend before Christmas. People are avoiding going out during the day to the cinema because of the Christmas rush. I’ve seen many people saying they can’t go until after Christmas.

Outside of this site the reaction towards TROS has been overwhelmingly positive.

But what i can’t believe is just what this site has now become. Fans openly wishing for these films to fail? Seriously? This place has now become everything it had always been accused of. It was bad enough when TLJ came out , but now it’s become a place i no longer enjoy visiting.

I hate to point it out to you, but this has happened before. There were many different bootlegs of TLJ within 5 days. And before ROTS was released, a low quality digital copy of the film got leaked (complete except for the end credits). This is normal and not odd in the slightest.

And I don’t know about you, but the people I know have more time to see movies during Christmas (and many people like to finish their Christmas day or whatever holiday they have by seeing a movie). And the release date is only 5 days later than TLJ.

And come now, I’ve been reading the spoiler thread and few have been wishing it to fail. Some predicted it would fail, but for the most part it has just be curiosity as to whether Disney/Lucasfilm/Kennedy/Abrams could pull off a successful end to the saga. I haven’t seen it yet, but I expect (from the spoilers) that I’m really going to love the ending, even if I have issues with the film before that. I do know some vloggers have been hating on it already, but really, critics are horrible judges of new popular movies. If Rotten Tomatoes had existed back in the 70’s, a lot of the ratings would have been much different. A lot of critics hated the original. I really have no explanation for the bad critic ratings of TROS, but the audience reaction has been favorable. The audience score for TLJ is 43% with just over 200,000 ratings (or a little over twice as many as TROS has right now). But the critic rating is 91%. So that film which a large number of OT members don’t like has better critic ratings and worse audience ratings that this new film does. Reactions are not going to be across the board. But I also am not surprised that this site which is heavily OT-centric to not be a bit wary of any new film, especially one claiming to wrap up the saga. Give it time. Just look how the PT is looked at today.

MalàStrana said:

adywan said:

Outside of this site the reaction towards TROS has been overwhelmingly positive.

No, not really. Most people I know found it was the worst SW ever made.

Most people who have left a review on Rotten Tomatoes have liked it. It has 38,000 verified reviews to rank at 86% and more than 90,000 reviews total 78%. So maybe most you know, but not most people. Most people are liking it.

Audience reactions have appeared on Rotten Tomatoes. Instead of the 58% the 309 critics have given it, 9628 audience reactions rate it at 86%. So right now it is critically panned but loved by the audience.

Shopping Maul said:

I liked it. In fact I was surprised that I genuinely enjoyed it after the debacle of TLJ. In particular I loved the way Rey was tempted by Palpatine in the finale. The idea that she would have to succumb to darkness and inherit the throne as the only way to save her friends was exactly the kind of temptation ROTJ should have had for Luke.

I hope I can enjoy it. Abrams does not have a good track record. So far I have seen 3 of his movies and I have the same felling about all of them. Good idea, bad execution. Star Trek blundered (great cast and great writing of dialog that is true to the Characters, but horrible story). Star Trek Into Darkness fell down a pit (seriously how do you rip off the best Trek film and do it so badly and cringeworthy). TFA was too much an homage to the OT. He cheated the ending by not giving one and doing his stupid mystery box story telling. Now the reports of TROS are that it is even more loving of on the OT while at the same time full of nonsense. I’m going to try and watch it the first time without thinking about editing it. But from the sounds of it, this might be the movie the most in need of major edits (a title I currently give to AOTC). But can it be saved by fan edit? But the reviews so far are just showing that even if I might like the ending on paper (the leaked plot sounded pretty good to me) the way Abrams executes and edits it might be the problem. No one should give him a beloved franchise project again. He f***s it up every time. Every f***ing time. I’m pissed at him and I haven’t even seen it yet. But I blame him because this has Abrams toxic touch all over it. I just hope I like it more then some others have. But considering I think that TFA is the worst of the 8 previous saga films, I don’t have much hope. Still, I love the characters and I hope someone put in enough good stuff that it can be edited into something enjoyable. I don’t know when I am going to see it. Maybe Sunday or maybe later over the holiday break. I was excited to see it, now I’m not. I think I’ll read the spoilers again.

RU.08 said:

IlFanEditore said:

5. The title… the most boring and obvious meaning. Rey who takes the name Skywalker. That’s all. Nothing from Luke, Leia or Anakin.
6. Palpatine’s death is just ridiculous. First, in Episode III he didn’t die because of Force lightning being re-directed at him. Why does he die now? Plus, the whole “I’m all the Sith!!!” VS “I’m all the Jedi!!!” is… is… you choose the words.

LMAO, yeah I was thinking much the same thing. Also someone has posted a clip of that scene here. My problem with it is that Palps never cares about another Sith. He kills his master. He sends Darth Maul to his death, falsely promising “they will be no match for you”, do you think he cares? Of course not! He’s testing his apprentice to see if he’s strong enough for him. In the prequels, Palpatine has a really great but subtle character arc. His relationship with Anakin is very different to the one he had with Darth Maul, with Anakin they start out as friends and he uses him to betray the other Jedi. Palpatine single-handedly destroyed the Sith, and then he went about destroying the Jedi as well. So his line, never-mind Rey’s line, just makes no sense he would never say “I’m all the Sith” because he’s claiming to be all of something that he destroyed! He didn’t want to share his power, he didn’t train Darth Vader he just recognised how strong with the Force he was and brought him over to his side. In the original trilogy, Darth Vader is never referred to as a Sith, he’s a Jedi that has been converted to the dark side (for example I’ve always understood “Your sad devotion to that ancient religion …” to be referring to him as a Jedi not Sith).

Well… you seem to have missed the point. The Rule of Two is all about there can only be two Sith because they are always trying to kill each other. For Palpatine it really becomes the rule of three because he has an apprentice, but he always has backups floating around in case his apprentice gets too powerful and might kill him. His goal in ROTJ was for Luke to replace Vader. But Vader is plotting the same thing. In TESB he invites Luke to help him destroy the Emperor and rule at his side. That theme runs throughout the PT. Palpatine loses Maul and immediately has his eye on Anakin, but chooses Dooku as a good replacement to help his plan, but he waits for Anakin before executing it and then arranges a confrontation between them to see if Anakin is good enough to be his apprentice. So when he says “I’m all the Sith” he is saying that no one can take his place. He intends to be the top Sith forever. But what better way of defeating your enemy than becoming their master by turning them to the Dark side, something he is eveidently very good at considering his track record. So him seeming to have multiple plans is quite parallel to everything we have seen him do in ROTJ and the PT. He is either a genius have having multiple options or a genius at finding out how to turn a bad situation to his advantage.

CatBus said:

IMO it will take several months to have confidence we’ve identified all changes unique to the 19SE and come up with LUTs for a theatrical regrade. The UHD’s will be released at just around the time we’d be in any position to do anything useful with the 19SE, even if we work our asses off from now until then.

And this is all assuming the UHD’s do not contain even more changes. But since at this point Disney’s in charge of the content (and the timeline would be pretty much impossible anyway), I think the crazy revision train has finally stopped. The Maclunkey cuts are the final destination. Welcome to Travesty: Population 3.

I’ve decided that the Maclunkey bit has one nice use. A frame of it can replace that single frame of the other Greedo that has always looked so out of place (if you actually notice it). Other than that I’m sticking with the Blu-ray cut (as the best of the SE cuts).

Reading through the short summaries on Rotten Tomatoes, I see that even many who liked the movie show that it has a huge flaw. I hope it is one I don’t find too distrcting, but it is one many saw in TFA. Abrams loves Star Wars. He loves it so much that he can’t help showing us that in the films. It sounds like that desire to please himself and other fans has damaged this film. Not necessarily totally destroyed it, but left most reviewers with a sense that this is Abrams love letter to Star Wars, even more so than TFA. I hope his ability to craft great scenes holds true and we get some awesome stuff. It is kind of what I expected from him so I’m not a bit surprised. My concern all along is if the ending fells right or not. On that there is a nice split that gives me hope that I will enjoy how this movie plays out. I think I will base my initial reaction to how it ends rather than the flaws that are clearly there. Sounds like this one might be good fodder for fan edits. Sounds like it is going to be another typical Abrams film. It was a mistake to bring him back. Still, if it has a good ending it won’t be a complete waste. (from the spoilers I think I am going to like the ending)

I just read through the tagged twitter comments (no spoilers to speak of) and they are generally positive. A few hated it or thought it would divide fans. Others thought it would unite fans. From the gist of the reactions, it reinterprets parts of TLJ while embracing other aspects of it. A definite change from TFA.

I find it funny that it has taken 42 years for us to get a yellow light saber on screen. That was the color Kenner used for Luke’s light saber (on all the ANH and TESB figures as well as their flashlight version with the inflatable blade). I am perversely happy that leak turned out to be true.

orchidal said:

https://preview.redd.it/fndedwug0n341.png?width=943&format=png&auto=webp&s=a1d55966aafe5df6c409283f1484d08dfc99a051

Click link for spoiler

Wow… face melting and demonic with fangs. Wonder what that could be.

Too bad that never happened. That would be a gem.

regularjoe said:

timdiggerm said:

Hey everyone, I accidentally read some spoilers, so I guess I’m here now instead of the no-spoiler thread. Anyway, the stuff I read was pretty crazy, but then I read some other stuff that seemed to conflict it. So…is there anywhere where I can read a summary of the current state of speculation and leaks, instead of sifting through 127 pages?

here you go

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k-gO17Y1ENyq2aahYqDAFgeMrqP95qaNhIaLtiFLDAE/edit

I kinda hope that is accurate. That is about the level of detail of the TFA leaks that proved very accurate. We will see.

15 days until the first of us will know what spoilers were right and what were BS.